While the comments threads attached to mainstream media articles on the web are usually best ignored, there’s a large thread about the deaths of four young boys in Western Australia that surely tells us some bad things about ourselves as a nation, as well as some bad things about us as human beings (and presumably tells us a lot about the tabloid newspaper and radio frenzy that’s feeding those views). Four boys respectively aged 10, 11, 15 and 17 are dead. It’s true the boys had done the wrong thing, but what sort of people think it’s acceptable to suggest that the boys got what they deserved? What sort of people would express such a view when the families and friends of these boys are no doubt mired in grief? Our family lost a young man due to a car accident caused by bad behaviour. He’d just turned 19 and he and his mates were coming home from the pub in the early hours of the morning. Dying was one hell of a price to pay. The boys who died on the weekend were Aboriginal. A lot of those people commenting will say that doesn’t make a bit of difference to their views. Well, I don’t know about that, but I do know they wouldn’t be so harsh if it was their loved ones who’d died. An item on ABC News says the following:
Michael Bruijn, who knew the boys through the Mandurah and Pinjarra football clubs, says they were promising footballers.
“Very talented, very quick, could use both sides of their body, very much aware of other players around them and how they could help them, just fantastic boys,” he said.
Update: The comments thread is now up to 1070 comments (as of 9.14pm). “Congratulations” to Perth Now for having one of the ugliest comments threads ever in the history of such things on their site. One participant talks about “karma”, but I wonder what will happen to them in the future for talking so horribly about these young lives lost.
Terribly sad. But who else to possibly blame apart from those who were inside the car?
Sure if they were my relatives id be in grief, but likewise if it was my car they stole i’d think they got what they deserved.
I’ve no sympathy for criminals, sorry. I work hard and obey the law, and I expect others in society to do the same. I certainly wouldn’t actively wish them dead, but seeing as it happened regardless, I am not about to lament the loss.
I don’t know Darlene, perhaps it is just very hard to feel sympathy for any group of boys who are running wild and being total idiots, steali8ng and wrecking cars is what people think about not the fact that the mothers and families are mourning for their deaths.
It is after all far easier to feel for the loss of a young person who is a example of virtue than one who is a delinquent.
The fact that these kids were Aboriginal ( Noongar) does make a difference. You are talking about generations of kids and young adults who think that pinching cars and going to gaol is a normal part of initiation to become a man. Its a tragedy that the level of dysfunction exists.
The history of vilification of Aboriginal people (in Perth especially) has a long history exacerbated by the only daily paper here - The West Australian. Positive stories are rarely reported.
[The history of vilification of Aboriginal people (in Perth especially) has a long history exacerbated by the only daily paper here - The West Australian. Positive stories are rarely reported.]
And broadcasters like Howard Sattler.
http://wwwmcc.murdoch.edu.au/ReadingRoom/CRCC/gambling/notes.html
Fortunately their skylarking did not result in any other lives being lost. That said Darlene is right they paid an awful price and so have their families. It also needs to be remembered by some that no matter how they ended up dead 4 human lives have been needlessly lost.
This conservative will leave the politics of how I would like to see these problems solved aside and just say I hope soon we find a way to make Aboriginal youth value their lives more highly so that they don’t engage in this behaviour so often.
And the revenant in the corner of the post is waiting for someone to name it. They were Indigenous: race, race, race.
You cant look at this without citing race as a factor for the harsh condemnatory remarks. As far as I have read down, about half of the posts mention race, either defensively, by way of saying its not about race (if its not, why mention it?) or directly.
And much of this commentary is therefore an example of racism wearing the cloak of indignant outrage at these kids’ crimes. If these kids were white, it would be a different response. I have seen nowhere near the level of condemnation directed at Scott Rush, who sits on death row in Indonesia and who had an extensive criminal record inc drug possession, fraud and theft, all by the age of 19 and well prior to the Bali situation. And that is a good thing. Because fraud, drug possession and theft, let alone being a drug mule does not in any sane way, require the death of Scott Rush, as an equal punishment for his crime.
Be serious. Who in their right mind would say they deserved it (as many posters are doing), under any circumstance, unless some other factor is driving this irrationality?
In order to say that death is a just punishment for car theft, you have to absent the humanity of the subject in question. You just cannot equate the two. Its about as rational as transporting people for life to these shores for stealing a loaf of bread. But dehumanise people for whatever reason and you can say it with ease. Racism can only operate with precisely such dehumanisation.
“This conservative will leave the politics of how I would like to see these problems solved aside and just say I hope soon we find a way to make Aboriginal youth value their lives more highly so that they don’t engage in this behaviour so often.”
But you didn’t, Kingsley, and spent a lot of time saying you wouldn’t.
I appreciate what you’re saying, Steve. Although two of those kids were little kids; just 10 and 11.
As I said, they did the wrong thing and in a different world the little ones would’ve been tucked up in bed. I know all that’s true. It doesn’t matter, though. You know that sometimes boys behave badly, and these boys have paid such a terrible price for it. I just can’t get my head around the comments people are leaving on the website. I guess I am asking for a little sympathy and empathy from people. That’s not too much to ask surely.
Phew, I don’t know how to respond to that, Stephen. A car is a car. And I’d be pissed off if my car got stolen, but a car is an object. These kids will never have the chance to make things right or to do the things they loved to do (e.g. play footy). They’re not just the sum total of their last few hours on earth. They were so much more than that.
Iain, thanks for your comment. I have to ask; how many kids are examples of virtue? How many people reading this blog could’ve easily ended up in the same situation thanks to bad behaviour when they were little? How many people making comments on the newspaper site have done stupid things that could have cost them their lives or other people’s lives?
Thanks, cows. Good points. How does that negative initiation behaviour change, I wonder?
Well, I wonder what Mr Sattler has had to say about it? Perhaps it’d be best not to know.
Thanks, Kingsley. True that it’s good that others also didn’t lose their lives in the process.
Incidentally, I think the behaviour of “skylarking” in such a way is common among lots of boys and young men (particularly working-class boys).
How to channel that energy that they have at that age into something safer and more productive is a big question.
Certainly that’s something that men (Aboriginal men and other men) have to discuss.
Right now, it’s a time to pay respects and be respectful. It’s just so sad.
Yes, it would and it is. Boys and men in their mid-to-late teens (and, to a lesser extent, older) are constantly atomising themselves, often two or three at a time, in drunken road crashes all through the Adelaide Hills, from the Barossa Valley right around and through to the Southern Vales. The stats for that demographic in that region are quite alarming. But nobody ever mentions how white they are, and it sure as hell never makes the interstate papers.
Nicely put, Casey, and I agree. It’s the truth that nobody wants to speak. It does matter that they were Aboriginal.
The reporting would’ve been different (I’ve seen that difference). Race and class are the two issues that nobody was to admit matter anymore, but they matter just as much as they always have. The answers are complex and, as I said, I would like to see males discussing issues surrounding how best to confront such behaviours.
I didn’t take Kingsley’s comment in a negative way, Joe.
If you want to see Sattler in Action, here are 2 clips from the Documentry “demons At Drivetime”
How the producer picks the type of stories.
http://australianscreen.com.au/titles/demons-drivetime/clip1/
And the “Rally For Justice” which involves an indiginous Car Thief.
http://australianscreen.com.au/titles/demons-drivetime/clip2/
Darlene, I’m afraid I don’t and can’t appreciate what Steve is saying. He is effectively saying that the death of these young boys (10 and 11 years old) is OK because they made a morally wrong choice. They were not of an age to judge the moral consequences of their behaviour, but even if they were, they didn’t deserve to die for stealing a car. The comments on the Perth Now site that you link to are disgusting and have left me very cold.
There are many comments from the righteous (”I didn’t do this when I was young”, “I raised three good children” etc) who fail to appreciate that different circumstances lead to different behaviour, or that some children are more difficult and rebellious than others. But the worst comments are from the wingnuts who seem to actually glorify this tragedy - and there are enough of them.
This is a community tragedy that probably reflects the bankruptcy of our wider society, not just the Mandurah Noongar community. But from the comments at Perth Now and here I despair that we will learn anything from it.
“I didn’t take Kingsley’s comment in a negative way, Joe.”
Fair enough, for you, Darlene, but I am never thrilled by avowed “conservatives” who wish to “make” other people do the “right” things, particularly when they are from disadvantaged communities.
I am an older bloke now but as a kid I did the wrong thing often. Never stole a car but I certainly drove drunk. Broke other laws too. I took the punishments, when I was caught, and gradually changed my ways. Since then I have led a pretty productive life and have contributed enough to society to have been recognised for my efforts.
The death penalty for being a kid in a car that someone has stolen is a long way over the top. How could anyone ‘deserve’ death for that? The lack of sympathy for the families of the kids expressed in some comments is sad.
Look, I would hope for civil discussion, and I want to respect the rights of people to have their say. I don’t agree with what Steve had to say. The little boys can’t be blamed. They were little boys, and the older boys, well, they’re dead. Horrible price to pay.
I’m trying to keep things civil, I guess. I’m despairing too after reading that thread, Kevin. After all the people commenting on the WA site have had their say, it’s the families and friends who’ve got to live with this for the rest of their lives. I’m actually really shocked at the comments, which is why I wrote the post. Having watched the Sattler links perhaps I shouldn’t have been shocked. Some people thrive on this sort of thing. Howard apparently likes controversy and he likes things black and white.
Fair enough as well, Joe. I’m struggling to understand this whole thing, actually. These boys had it tough right from the start and now we’ve got adults condemning them. We’ve got a woman who says she’s a mother saying that she hopes that they donated their organs so they’ll finally do something right.
Jesus wept.
“The death penalty for being a kid in a car that someone has stolen is a long way over the top. How could anyone ‘deserve’ death for that? The lack of sympathy for the families of the kids expressed in some comments is sad.”
Thanks, Mangoman. Nicely put and thanks for your honesty about what you used to get up to when you were younger. I suspect lots of others did similar things and are now leading law-abiding lives.
For even an adult, stealing a car should not result in a death sentence. For children of that age, they can be barely held responsible for their actions, especially when it concerns a serious crime like stealing a car as they would be easily lead by others and unlikely to be able to do it by themselves. If you want to fingerpoint, it should be towards the families and the community environment that they live in.
However, I think many of the comments that are being put up on that website are are a backlash resulting from frustration at what people believe are inadequate sentences being handed out - it should be remembered that people driving stolen cars not only get themselves and their passengers killed, but innocent bystanders as well.
[Having watched the Sattler links perhaps I shouldn’t have been shocked. Some people thrive on this sort of thing. Howard apparently likes controversy and he likes things black and white. =]
I should point out that Sattler currently is the Drive announcer on 6PR and nothing has changed from 1990-91.
He also writes for Farfax Media’s WA Today where his “Blog” have been lampooned
In fact one of the posters, “Skink” has been banned by WA Today for upsetting the man’s feelings for stating a few home truths
http://blogs.watoday.com.au/madashell/
“The history of vilification of Aboriginal people (in Perth especially) has a long history exacerbated by the only daily paper here - The West Australian. Positive stories are rarely reported.”
The so-called vilification might have something to do with the extraordinarily high rates of crimes against person and property committed by Aborigines. If anything, Aboriginals who succeed, like many of our indigenous footballers, are singled out for special praise.
Remember the outpouring of hate surrounding the release of the ten year old murderers of James Bolger in England? What a shame the young murderers were white and thus could not hide behind confected allegations of racism.
Racism exists but the same of luvvies insist on trotting out such allegations even when the evidence is underwhelming.
What is as disgusting as racism, and false allegations of racism, is the callousness of folk such as Stephen Lloyd above who fail to acknowledge that if they were born in different circumstances they to would most likely have a chequered past.
No, it shouldn’t result in a death sentence.
Thanks, Chris. Your comments again make me wonder just what we can do about this. How we can stop it before it happens, if possible. There must be a better way to express frustration than targetting it at four dead boys, but frustration does make people say things that probably wouldn’t usually say. Perhaps they should take a step back and just get a sense of perspective.
I wonder if most of these youngsters (and they mostly seem to be young males) mostly kill themselves and their mates. Yes, others do die as well.
Howard’s blog is quite odd, and doesn’t seem to attract many comments. It’s called “Mad as Hell”. What a healthy way to go through one’s life, being as mad as hell.
And it must be said, Con, we don’t know what Stephen’s past is. Perhaps he did get up to some mischief.
I don’t really know about the circumstances surrounding the killers of Jamie Bulger. That’s another issue altogether, of course.
“And it must be said, Con, we don’t know what Stephen’s past is.”
Aberrant behaviour is normalised in most/many Aboriginal communities. I doubt Mr Lloyd was raised in such a hopelessly dysfunctional environment.
And here is Mr Sattler’s most famopus case of Racial Vilification.
http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s1437612.htm
[Update: The comments thread is now up to 1070 comments (as of 9.14pm). “Congratulations” to Perth Now for having one of the ugliest comments threads ever in the history of such things on their site.]
It should be noted that whenever there is an article where someone has been charged with a Criminal Offence, the Comments are disabled, but since there have been no charges laid (there is one survivour who has allegedly claimed on Ch 7 New Perth tonight that they were “Rammed”, so they sped up to get away from the ramming car) Perth Now in their iinfinate wisdom have encouraged comments.
Mmmm, I don’t think things are so clear cut as that. I don’t presume what Mr Lloyd’s past is. Perhaps his lack of sensitivity is a defence mechanism. Who knows? Abuse is a problem in Indigenous communities, I’m not going to b/s and say that’s not the case. Abuse is also common in other communities. And driving fast and killing yourself, as I mentioned earlier, isn’t unpopular among many males of all hues and colours. As I said earlier, I would like to see Aboriginal men play a role in guiding the boys in their communities.
Howard’s all class. And just so full of positive solutions. That kind of hatred is so tiring to listen to or read.
Perth Now should hang their head in shame, but they are probably rubbing their hands in glee at all the comments they received.
I’m going to say that we need to stay on-topic. This post is absolutely about an outrageous comments thread. It’s about the views expressed. It’s not about other things. There’s always (so many) opportunties to talk about the other issues (they are talked about and talked about, but how oddly some people react when the gaze is on “us” for a change).
“One participant talks about “karma”,…”…
Karma for being Aboriginal, I think you’ll find is the sentiment behind that remark…
There’s a repellent gloating quality to some of the comments on Perth Now, definitely.
When I was growing up in Newcastle there were plenty of lads who did “joy-riding” on the weekends. I remember that most of the boys at my school who went up in front of a magistrate for that came from families where the other brothers did not go “joy-riding”: although a minority did get caught while out with their big brothers it seemed to be something that certain boys did to differentiate themselves from their siblings rather than to copy them.
Of course, because the boys concerned were all Anglos (we had plenty of immigrant families, but their sons didn’t tend to go joyriding for their adolescent rebellious thrills) none of this sort of speculation about “those people” being inherently criminal or vandalous was ever indulged. They were just “black sheep” (yes, I do note the irony of that cliched phrase in the context of this particular discussion).
There is definitely a double standard in play here.
Compare the PerthNow reaction with the widespread outpouring of shock and grief over the 6 young people killed in Sydney’s boat joyride a couple months ago. They had alcohol, they were overcrowded, they were speeding on the water, they didn’t have lights on, they were of age. What have you got to say about their “karma”, PerthNow readers?
But since the young people who died weren’t Abos, I guess the boat joyride counts as a tragedy.
[Compare the PerthNow reaction with the widespread outpouring of shock and grief over the 6 young people killed in Sydney’s boat joyride a couple months ago. They had alcohol, they were overcrowded, they were speeding on the water, they didn’t have lights on, they were of age. What have you got to say about their “karma”, PerthNow
readers?]
And I’m pretty sure the boat was stolen as well.
Yep, don’t you love double standards in the Meeja, and what about those in the “posh” suburbs who get up to mischief ?
Hypocrites.
I’m not sure the comments have a lot to do with the dead boys’ Aboriginality because I’ve seen so many similar responses in situations where race was not a factor. Endless complaints about ‘light’ sentences such as five years in prison. Regular posts expressing disappointment that Schapelle Corby wasn’t executed (for a drug that is less harmful than alcohol, nicotine or panadol). Or the Bali Nine who while being stupid and greedy had no intention to kill anybody. And of course the regular bleating for the death penalty to be brought back and used as penalty for murder, drug trafficking, peadophilia, rape, drink driving and more.
Some of the extreme commentary is probably nothing more than ‘little’ people trying to get a reaction - a group who tend to be over represented on comments threads. And some will be the understandable reaction of former victims of crime. But some of it seems to reflect commenters’ rising panic that their world is becoming less safe. A pity since crime statistics indicate Australia is a very safe place and becoming more so. I blame the media which unfotunately thrives on bad news. But I am convinced there’s a much stronger basis for the comments than racism.
I live in Perth the same as Frank,but I have also lived in Sydney and Brisbane,I have heard the same sentiments expressed to me many times over about the Aboriginals,a lot of white Australians have little or no time for them at all.
Some one once said there’s no votes in boongs, in WA that is very very true, I have also heard that it was the second car they stole that night,how true or false that is I am not sure.
I knocked around with an Aboriginal kid when I went to school back in the 50s, that was not met with overwhelming approval,I suppose I,m a bit callous bit nobody made them steal the car,harsh but true,I don’t give a stuff if they were black, brown,brindle or white,having had some one attempt to steal my car out of my drive I think if I had had a gun I would have shot them,you may not like it but its the way a lot feel
Legally, someone 10 or under is doli incapax (not capable of intent). In between 10-14, doli incapax is a rebuttable presumption. The mother who pointed out that her two young lads were lad astray by older boys (well within the age for criminal responsibility) is the one I feel for most.
Just on another (tangential) legal point, someone pointed out above that because all the relevant parties are dead, no-one has been charged, which means the uglies are being given free reign to vent their spleen. The normal situation is that when someone is charged, the media ‘comment’ (as opposed to simple reportage, with judicious use of the word ‘alleged’) has to stop. This horrible venting explains more clearly than anything else why the common law evolved that rule…
And why many lawyers would like to muzzle our media friends even further out from trial in high-profile cases.
Do you honestly beleive they would’ve wanted or even considered ‘making it right’ if they hadn’t crashed and weren’t caught?
Last hours aside, my assumption (and most other peoples’) is that this isn’t the first time they’ve broken the law. People don’t go from playing hopscotch to stealing cars. They graduate over time, and I beleive had they lived they’d have graduated further. I’ve no evidence of that, I’m just prejudiced and unsympathetic.
Darlene said
Most kids are seen as OK if they don’t steal and run amok, normal everyday kids, But i have to ask you have you ever been burgled or had your car stolen? Because some of the commenters say that they have directly and I bet that many of those who are being less than sympathetic, have also had a car stolen or their houses broken into. When you have been violated like that it becomes easy to wish death upon the perps themselves, or to be happy when others doing similar crimes meet a nasty end. It may be crude, but the emotional response is to feel that it is an example of divine justice.
But despite what Sceptic Lawyer says about the legal age of responsibility is most people consider that a child of ten is old enough to understand the difference between right and wrong. When three boys were hit by a train west of Brisbane were hit by a train I suggested in my blog that that was the way the gene pool is purged but I did balance that by thinking about how I would feel if it was my child who was dead. What I am getting to is that people who comment on the story are in most cases not heartless racists as some commentators here are very keen to claim but they are just ordinary folks who are angry about being victims of criminals who do not see the legal system work for them and think that these boys are criminals first and foremost and someone’s sons a very poor second.
Finally I ask the same question now that I asked at my own blog where were the parents who allowed such young children to run amok? Personally I think they should be charged with neglect…
Things may have changed a lot since I was a teen, but to kids back then taking a car for a joyride was very much entry-level only-just-crime, the sort of thing that young lads got up to not long after they started sneakily drinking beer. Drive it around for an hour or so, leave it in the parking lot at the beach.
The family of a good friend were hugely embarrassed when one of their sons was caught doing joy-riding, but no-one thought it meant that he was going to become a career criminal. Was that only because it wasn’t a poor family? Or is there perhaps not such an established progression as you imply?
Obviously it’s different if the car is burnt out after being stolen, or if the car is stolen to be sold, but are simple joy-rides so much a thing of the past?
Mother stabbers … father rapers!
My brother was in a stolen van at the age of, maybe, 13. He gave all that up at 17, and has never returned to it. But according to Stephen he would never have considered making it right, and apparently he deserved to die. Amusing.
And all for stealing a car. I suppose that puts the value of a 13 year old life at a couple of thousand dollars. I wonder what separates Stephen from the criminals he hates, if he values human life that cheaply?
I have been burgled several times, I have been assaulted, my partner was mugged and robbed near our house and I have prevented a couple of serious crimes in my life. But funny, I’m not banging on about how some 10 year old who stole a car deserved to die. Your particular experience of crime doesn’t get to make you special.
And big kudos to you for “balancing” your fine blog-work by thinking about how you would feel if it was your kids dead on a train line. You’re a modern miracle of empathy.
Thanks, Chav, succinct and to the point. Yes, tigtog, I think that’s what many have noticed over the years. The bad behaviour of the few doesn’t condemn the lot (unless perhaps they’re from a poor white neighbourhood or something like that).
Yes, the boat tragedy provides some evidence from not so long ago.
Frank, anyone would think all those people commenting were as pure as the driven snow. Never done anything wrong, none of ‘em. Yeah, right.
Jenny, I have also seen those comments threads: death to this and kill them for that and in my day this and in my day that, string ‘em up, if I could get a hold of them etc. Mind you, I’ve never seen such a long comments thread. This thread is probably an example of that and the added extra of racism. A toxic mix no doubt.
John, so that’s the way you feel, but what do you think about it? Lots of people say that they would do this and that to law-breakers, but I’m not sure how one would live with shooting kids from the age of 10 to 17 (seeing that movie on Sunday night about Abu Ghraib lets us know that some people expect soldiers to torture and humiliate “enemies”, but I wonder if those people are willing to pay for the medical bills when those soldiers return as highly-damaged human beings because of their actions)? The legal system mightn’t be perfect, but I trust it far more than mob rule. Your comment about “no votes for boongs in WA” says a hell of a lot.
Beautifully put, skepticlawyer, and thanks for clarifying the way law determines responsibility in relation to age. The horrible venting has to stop, but as has been pointed out it’s not always the case. Of course, media intrusion at a time of great grief must be horrible.
So Stephen, if these kids were already in tons of trouble, what do we do about it? I bet when you were growing up you were aware of kids who got into strife. Most of them I presume got out the other end okay, I presume some of the didn’t. As I said, I’m not talking about that at this moment (although it’s a topic that needs to be addressed), I’m talking about the reactions. What those reactions say about people and human nature. They don’t say much good from what I can tell. Not living far away from several blocks of housing commission units, I note that there are some good services available for the kids. Some of the kids allow children the opportunity to spend time away from what can be very difficult circumstances. That’s one positive step people are taking to try and keep kids on-track. There must be so many more.
Iain, but they’ll always been sons first and foremost to their parents. Legal responsibility at ten? To what end? To send them to institutions where they can become further criminalised. I think I said in the post that the boys had done the wrong thing. I think I said in a comment that the little fellows should’ve been home tucked up in bed. I don’t think all of those people commenting have been the victims of crime, and I suspect some of the people commenting in a sensitive way have. People respond in different ways. Yeah, we all have emotional respones, and sometimes those responses aren’t pretty (we all can admit to that, surely). There should certainly be better support services for the victims of crime. And I can certainly understand when people are appalled at seemingly sentences for certain crimes. I just looked at your post. You’re obviously a father who cares. The gene pool bit is harsh, but the rest of the post touched my heart. It’s a horrible feeling when that happens. Scares the life out of you.
SG provides an example of someone who has been a victim of crime who takes a different tack. And, as I mentioned in my post, a family member of mine (my nephew) was killed after his mate ploughed into a power pole. The article that appeared in the paper the next day was kind; quoted his mate saying what a good worker he was and how he was an old-fashioned battler. Yes, they did wrong speeding and drinking and driving. And yes, they would’ve stopped doing that.
Before or after someone was killed? Oh wait…
Putting people lives at risk is never tolerable even if ‘one day’ it’ll stop.
South Africa’s first democratic election, with Nelson Mandela winning the Presidency, was in 1994. Around that date there was a flood of Seth Efricaans who did not like uppity blacks, leaving the country.
Many of them fled to Perth WA, because as I was told, Aussies know how to deal with blecks. When I was in Johannesburg at the time the newspapers were reporting this migration as “taking the rat run to Perth”.
Just thought I would mention this, because it might help explain why Perth…
tigtog said:
The news reports are now saying that there was a burnt-out car nearby to the car crash and the police are sure the same group were responsible for that car earlier in the night.
grace said:
Even before that time period I’d heard from asians that they found Perth to be the one city in Australia where they encountered overt racist behaviour, so perhaps there has been an underlying problem for a while?
Of course it’s not, Depsis. Yes, they put lives at risk, they put their lives at risk and they put other lives at risk. My nephew died three days before Christmas 2005 because of that risk. He died on impact. Thanks for pointing that out, though.
I have said that I’d like to see positive solutions. Young men (sorry if this is going to sound gendered) need to find positive ways to channel that energy that they have. Older people need to be part of the solution and not just be whining and whinging like they were never young people themselves.
Thanks, Grace. I suspect the problem has been around for longer, but interesting analysis.
The last time I checked, no jurisdiction in Australia still uses the death penalty. Nor had the death penalty been given for a crime involving loss of property in over 150 years. To state that anyone, juvenile or adult, black or white, “deserves” to die in such circumstances, can I then assume that they also believe that the death penalty ought to be re-introduced for crimes against property?
Grace If your white in Perth your OK racism has always existed in Perth,they will watch Aboriginals play AFL and cheer but let one move into their street,they accept KIWIs, Maoris,ect I will watch with interest to see how the Sudanese get on.
Perth was like this long before the South Africans arrived,I think Frank can tell you that, I think Perth is different,I worked up north in the 60s and the Aboriginals were confined to one bar in the pub, one entered another bar and was beaten up and removed,that’s the way it was and maybe still is
JOE2 _ I was merely, perhaps somewhat clumisly and perhaps even unnecessarily trying to just record on the broader issues of aboriginal policy I would disagree with many here but that Darlene’s fundamental point still stands that 4 human lives have been tragically lost.
The unfortunate answer to your question, Bernice, is probably yes. This is how they’d express that on Perth Now:
“Riddence to rabbbish. I gort my . All the dogooders can get lost. Death to the person who stole my bike. Jst cause it was my twp yesr old son, dent’. Doen;t matter. String him up”.
Sorry, that’s harsh, but I just had another look at the Perth Now thread and my blood is boiling. I’ve always loathed it when people go on about being ashamed to be an Australian, but I feel a bit that way this morning.
“South Africa’s first democratic election, with Nelson Mandela winning the Presidency, was in 1994. Around that date there was a flood of Seth Efricaans who did not like uppity blacks, leaving the country.”
Oy vey.
I know many many Perthling South Efricans who would appreciate some more qualifiers on that statement. It’s certainly true enough, but let’s not forget the shitload of immigrants already there priior to the 90s, many of whom moved because they couldn’t bear to be part of apartheid any more.
I find it hard to let this go. It is very distubing to me not that these attitudes exist - I guess I always knew they did - but that they are so widely prevalent. There seems to be a lack of ability to see ‘grey’ in alot of the debate on the Perth Now site (and I will try to avoid targetting anyone or attack anyone’s point of view). It seems their only option, aside from being ’soft’ on criminals, is to have people (including very young children) killed. No nuance, no relativities, no compassion, no extenuating circumstances - simply a desire to see people killed.
Two things:
Firstly, this comment : “If these kids were white, it would be a different response.”
When I first heard the story I must have missed the bit about the identity of the boys because I had no idea whether they were Aboriginal or white - it didn’t cross my mind, I guess I just assumed they were white. And my feelings at the time were that they were criminals, regardless of their age and that I generally don’t feel sympathetic to criminals who die or injure themselves in the course of committing a criminal act. They were old enough to know what they were doing was a crime. End of story. Of course I don’t believe they ‘got what they deserved’ or any of that rubbish, but at the same time I don’t fell a whole lot of sympathy for them.
Secondly, the comment made about South African’s somehow moving to Perth because it was a racist city or something is just utter claptrap. A lot of South Africans ended up in Perth because the language, climate, and lifestyle of Australia as a whole is much the same as that of South Africa. Perth ended up with more South African immigrants simply because it was closer to South Africa - it was easier to move to Perth for those South Africans who still had family back in South Africa.
Yes, Kevin, I am shocked that they are so widely prevalent. That’s why I wonder what it says about us as people. I really don’t know. My mind is boggling that anyone could sit there and type away such words about these kids. These dead kids: 10, 11, 15 and 17. These dead kids who are probably lying in a morgue right now as preparations for their funerals are undertaken.
Is it that they can’t appreciate that these kids were human? Is it that there distance from the kids allows them to be so cruel? Is it that they are so damaged themselves they can’t feel for others?
Jenny’s earlier point was a good one. The one about little people etc. Of course, surely people know that feeling big by making other people small is a pretty crap way of feeling good about yourself.
Thanks for your views, Justin. And thanks for letting us know about the fact that you initially didn’t know about their racial identity. Of course, everybody knows now.
Is it ever “end of story”? It’s never that simple, surely. Being labelled a criminal at the age of 10 seems like a sure way of spending your life as one. People’s life circumstances can vary greatly. I think we are asking kids to behave in ways that many many adults don’t. Go to the pub on a Friday night, for example. On average most of us live about 75 years (that’s different for Aboriginal people), which means that those boys are going to miss out on a lot of living. No sympathy for all that they’re going to miss? At any rate, criminals aren’t just “criminals” (deliberate use of scare quotes), they’re people. They’re often people we know. Perhaps they are us at an earlier stage of life.
If you are going to bring race into a debate on crime (especialy in WA) then be prepared for some ugliness to come out. The fact is a massively disproportionate amount of property crime in WA is committed by Aboriginals. This unfortunately leads to an assumption by some people that any unsolved property crime was “a bloody boong”, futher stigmatising this group.
My family has had 3 cars stolen over the years (1 mine), in every case the offenders were Aboriginal. Ive also had the pleasure of being burgled during a cyclone in Port Hedland, again the offenders were Aboriginal.
The WA government has an avowed policy of attempting to keep Aboriginal offenders out of prison (deaths in custody report and all that), but the numbers are still disproportionaly high.
The Town of Geraldton might be a good place to start as an example of why some whites will villify Aboriginals before they even know if they are scum or law abiding decent citizens.
The local nightclub area is impossible to walk home from, apart from the (overwhelmingly white) idiots who want a fight there is a group of Aboriginals who have carried out repeated assaults and robberies on pissed patrons who try to walk home from the clubs.
The government tried to experiment with the idea the problem was the state housing area they were in (rangeway), and sold off most of the state housing and spread the population among a couple of other lower end but reasonable neighberhoods. They are now valueless sinkholes.
If you attend the local court it will be majority Aboriginals as defendants. the local magistrate is notorious for bending the law to release Aboriginal offenders as opposed to white offenders on similar charges.
Offences like the Christmas bashing and killing of a local Grazier (who BTW was well kown in Yalgoo as a supporter and friend of local Aboriginals) playing cricket on the beach with his family really set off the hate…
http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,22972332-948,00.html
My opinion is that the attempt to keep offenders out of prison has backfired on the whole Aboriginal community (as opposed to the individuals committing the crimes). The overwhelming majority of the crime is stupid, easily policed property crime. However by not jailing the minority of Aboriginals who commit (and continue to commit) these crimes they allow the whole community to be tarred with the criminal brush.
Not to mention for every assault or robbery reported by a white by an Aboriginal there are probably 3 or 4 by black on black, futher whecking their community. If you refuse to remove offenders from a community it shouldnt be a suprise when those communities become disfunctional.
Equally importantly, we all have the capacity to be criminals. There are not the “criminals” and “the rest of us”. Criminal behaviour is contextual and based on circumstance.
I have a particular aversion to people who say ‘end of story’ after making some outrageous comment, as though that statement itself renders an end to discussion - well it didn’t and it will not. I don’t know if you have children, Justin, but if you do you should know that anyone can ‘go off the rails’ and do things that they would otherwise not do when older and more mature. And these kids were 10 years old for god’s sake.
When I lived in a large country town, we were burgled five times over the course of a couple of years, forced to get an alarm, increase insurance premiums etc etc. It turned out that it was the same person each time - the son of some neighbours a couple of ks away (it was out of town so they were literally neighbours) who was a heroin addict. This was a decidedly middle class area and they appeared to be caring, responsible parents. None of us wished any harm on this person, although we were pretty pissed of at the time, so I for one have no idea where this malignant hatred comes from.
Criminality - I’ve often wondered about this claim of more criminality in the Aboriginal community. It seems to be a relatively recent phenomenon - say in the last twenty years, maximum. In all the time I was living in King’s Cross, I never met any Aboriginal crims. They were all white and I met and got to know a lot of them. When I went bush in the mid 70s, all the petty crims I met, bar one, were white.Again, I met a lot. Put it down to my moon in Scorpio.
Sure, there are cultural factors impelling Aboriginals towards crime. The same cultural factors, (white collar crime aside) impel whites towards crime. Just as there are cultural factors impelling Aborigines towards participation in sport, the arts, and more recently, universities.
There is a large criminal underclass in Australia, there always has been,and, guess what, its colour blind, mostly lower middle class/working class, and except for the professionals, most of them are dirt poor. If we had a lot more social equality, we’d probably have a lot less property crime.
And the observation that we don’t have the death penalty in Australia is spot on.
Ever since Hanson, I’ve realised we have to live with various kinds of racism in Australia, but that doesn’t mean you stop fighting it. This kind of racist filth has to be exposed, the way Darlene has exposed it. If you don’t see it you can’t fight it.
G’day Darlene, I’m not surprised about the comments thread, tho i couldn’t read too much of it. this is i think the dark hypocritical face of this population.
If any one of these kids lived through this experience and learned a lesson and then went on to help others from making similar mistakes they would be lauded. not now, and maybe not for years but it would happen. From CJ Dennis to Nick Cave, from Gorton to Hawke australians have celebrated ratbags that have survived their self destructive periods and come out the otherside and contributed something back to the rest of the population.
i find it sad that we as a population who celebrate risk taking in so many of its forms; on the sporting field, in business, science and politics cannot simply pause and recognise that that impulse, in one of it’s baser forms, has lead to a tragedy that has done no one any good.
Oh, so proud to an Aussie!
Some criminals died as a result of their actions in the course of committing a crime.
I resent, object to, and sneer at implications that I somehow lack heart, or anything of the sort. I hold contempt for anyone who makes a suggestion that I am wrong, or should possess any guilt, by my acknowledgement of this fact.
Direct blame cannot be apportioned outside of the occupants of the car.
Indirect blame can be apportioned to the parents/guardians of the minors, to the judges (personally) and the court system who teach offenders there are little to no negative consequences for crime, and to the politicians who allow this to happen.
If indirect blame is being dished out, remember to include those older relatives who cajole/force juveniles to commit crimes, for the reason that the law will not touch juveniles.
SATP - it’s possible to acknowledge that they were ultimately responsible for the consequences of their actions without resorting to “they deserved everything they got”. It’s the latter mentality which I see as the issue here.
Sympathy is not merely a function of blame-laying, where only the blameless deserve it.
I suspect, SATP, that your contempt is for me and comments that I made at the start of this thread. If so, I accept your contempt with some pride. I also suspect that your comments are intended as a hand grenade to create a fight. Normally I would just let it roll, however this issue, as I have said above, has left me cold.
I was not looking to blame for this - although it seems that blame is easy to apportion, as I suppose it always is in human relations.
If we are, though, looking for “indirect blame”, what about the attitudes that say it is acceptable for young Aboriginal youths to die in a car crash?
Because finally, as Mercurius has suggested above, this is ultimately about race.
Let’s go further - who else should accept blame? What about those people who refuse to employ Aboriginal people in their business? Refuse to sit next to them on public transport? Refuse to try to understand the basis for their culture and their lived experience?
I sat in a Mandurah service station once and watched a white woman berate an Aboriginal mother for the way she was dealing with her children, in a manner that I’m sure she wouldn’t have employed on other mothers. There is endemic racism in that town, but the extent and nature of the venom that this accident has aroused has surprised me. SATP, despite the distinct possiblity of incuring your resentment, I think you have no heart.
I’d just like to point out that it is well known that sending Aborigines (or should I say “Aboriginals”?) to prison for stealing cars is not the cause of their high death rates in custody, was not identified by the inquiry into deaths in custody as a remediable feature, and probably does not play very heavily on the minds of police and judges.
Deaths in custody happened for Aborigines at the same rate as whites, but they were incarcerated at vastly higher rates in watchhouses and police stations, using the “trifecta” of drunk and disorderly,abusive language, and resisting arrest. It was in the police stations that they died and the most important recommendation of the inquiry was to change this needless arrest and imprisonment in police stations.
It really shits me when idiots give a sensible response to the ongoing tragedy of black deaths in custody as their justification for attempts to keep Aborigines out of jail. It’s a different issue, and it shows a remarkable ignorance of a serious issue.
steve at the pub, what does “blame” have to do with some kids being dead? If being to blame means we can gloat over it, does that mean you gloat every time a pedestrian gets knocked over jay-walking?
And you worry some people think you lack heart…
“And I’m pretty sure the boat was stolen as well.”
The owners’ originally claimed that the boat was stolen but there was later some questions raised about whether it was or not. At the time everyone was expressing sympathy for the victims it was being claimed it was stolen. I don’t remember any comments suggesting they ‘deserved what they got’.
“Some criminals died as a result of their actions in the course of committing a crime.”
Ah, that’s okay then. They weren’t four boys, aged 10, 11, 15 and 17, they were just ‘criminals’.
[“And I’m pretty sure the boat was stolen as well.”
The owners’ originally claimed that the boat was stolen but there was later some questions raised about whether it was or not. At the time everyone was expressing sympathy for the victims it was being claimed it was stolen. I don’t remember any comments suggesting they ‘deserved what they got’.]
Exactly my point - when the perpatrators are of Anglo origin, they are “wayward youths”, when they are of non anglo such as indiginous and Mslim, they are classed as “scum” and rubbish”.
I’m sure that I’m well to the left of SATP in my views about most issues. Nevertheless I always enjoy his concise and thought-provoking contributions.
So my only reaction to his “terribly sad. But who else to possibly blame apart from those who were inside the car?” is disappointment that for once he’s pointed out no more than the bleeding obvious. And I’m curious as to how his “terribly sad” can be interpreted to demonstrate lack of heart.
Er read post #59, Jenny. Sort of places the ‘terribly sad’ quote in context.
I can’t see your point Adrian. #59 provides clarification about ‘blame’ but doesn’t reinterpret or resile from ‘terribly sad’.
To forget about the other issues (e.g. racism), it’s simply bad manners to be so callous about other people. I wonder if many of the people commenting would say they hold traditional values. Those values surely include courtesy and respect. There’s a time to button one’s lips (I’m sure their mums taught them that).
RIP to the boys. Short lives they had. Possibly very difficult lives.
“No man is an island, entire of itself…any man’s death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind.”
Adrian, in WHAT context, exactly?
Schadenfreude = the emotion experienced by almost the entire population at hearing the news of perpetrators who kill themselves during the commission of a crime.
Why is this case any different?
The far from heroic last actions and circumstances of the demise of their loved ones can only exacerbate the grief of those left behind.
I don’t think assigning blame at this time is particularly useful. But it is a process that does need to be gone through - to identify the causes and to then look for ways to reduce the probability of this happening in the future.
But if the community continues to just write these incidents off as “boys being boys” and part of the process of growing up then we’ll continue to see these horrific accidents.
I totally agree Darlene.
Re. the people who pointed out the many white-Australian car joyriding deaths, the “boat tragedy”, et al - this post by Ashley at Feministe springs to mind.
Money quote: