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	<title>Comments on: The Great Pretender</title>
	<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/21/the-great-pretender/</link>
	<description>Blogging politics, culture, sociology and life from Brisvegas</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:00:36 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3</generator>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/21/the-great-pretender/#comment-488595</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 12:58:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/21/the-great-pretender/#comment-488595</guid>
		<description>Yes she is, Tom.

It's very hard to say how Costello would have gone. Perhaps better than Howard, but he was more than capable of doing himself damage, and the reality would have been huge instability in the government if Howard had gone close to the election - even if "voluntarily". But the important thing with this research is not just that it was done at a time when the political stars where very differently aligned, but also that it was a hypothetical then too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes she is, Tom.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s very hard to say how Costello would have gone. Perhaps better than Howard, but he was more than capable of doing himself damage, and the reality would have been huge instability in the government if Howard had gone close to the election - even if &#8220;voluntarily&#8221;. But the important thing with this research is not just that it was done at a time when the political stars where very differently aligned, but also that it was a hypothetical then too.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom B</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/21/the-great-pretender/#comment-488593</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 12:54:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/21/the-great-pretender/#comment-488593</guid>
		<description>Just throwing it out there...but I'm pretty sure Christine Jackman is the wife of the editor of The Australia, Chris Mitchell. I figured that was part of the reason why it got so much play in that paper over the weekend (there were pages and pages of excerpts and reprints and rehashes of the book's findings).

Interesting analysis Mark, but I think you are underselling Costello. At the least, the election would've been a closer contest if he had been leader. It would've undercut the age issue that Rudd played so well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just throwing it out there&#8230;but I&#8217;m pretty sure Christine Jackman is the wife of the editor of The Australia, Chris Mitchell. I figured that was part of the reason why it got so much play in that paper over the weekend (there were pages and pages of excerpts and reprints and rehashes of the book&#8217;s findings).</p>
<p>Interesting analysis Mark, but I think you are underselling Costello. At the least, the election would&#8217;ve been a closer contest if he had been leader. It would&#8217;ve undercut the age issue that Rudd played so well.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Burns</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/21/the-great-pretender/#comment-488592</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Burns</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 12:51:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/21/the-great-pretender/#comment-488592</guid>
		<description>There was some talk recently, I think, of relaxing archive restrictions to 10 years, but the idea may have dissipated.I don't know.
Personally, I prefer the 30 year rule, irritating though it may be at times. I think one needs that period to get some historical perspective on a period. And let political passions cool.
Nevertheless, whetrher its now or 30 years time, I don't think JWH will come out of it well, on his tardiness on global warming alone, let alone all the morally questionable stances his government took on so many things. But then again, neither will the Labor Opposition or, probably, the Democrats under Meg Lee.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There was some talk recently, I think, of relaxing archive restrictions to 10 years, but the idea may have dissipated.I don&#8217;t know.<br />
Personally, I prefer the 30 year rule, irritating though it may be at times. I think one needs that period to get some historical perspective on a period. And let political passions cool.<br />
Nevertheless, whetrher its now or 30 years time, I don&#8217;t think JWH will come out of it well, on his tardiness on global warming alone, let alone all the morally questionable stances his government took on so many things. But then again, neither will the Labor Opposition or, probably, the Democrats under Meg Lee.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/21/the-great-pretender/#comment-488456</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 08:16:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/21/the-great-pretender/#comment-488456</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;a journalist or a poseur - can’t a bloke be both?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That raises the additional question of the exact referent of the post's title!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>a journalist or a poseur - can’t a bloke be both?</p></blockquote>
<p>That raises the additional question of the exact referent of the post&#8217;s title!</p>
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		<title>By: Ambigulous</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/21/the-great-pretender/#comment-488352</link>
		<dc:creator>Ambigulous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 04:48:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/21/the-great-pretender/#comment-488352</guid>
		<description>well yes, joe2, for the columnists</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>well yes, joe2, for the columnists</p>
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		<title>By: joe2</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/21/the-great-pretender/#comment-488343</link>
		<dc:creator>joe2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 04:22:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/21/the-great-pretender/#comment-488343</guid>
		<description>"a journalist or a poseur - can’t a bloke be both?"

The latter seems more and more to be a job prerequisite for the former.
Mr Milne is a definite winner on the second score.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;a journalist or a poseur - can’t a bloke be both?&#8221;</p>
<p>The latter seems more and more to be a job prerequisite for the former.<br />
Mr Milne is a definite winner on the second score.</p>
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		<title>By: Ambigulous</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/21/the-great-pretender/#comment-488336</link>
		<dc:creator>Ambigulous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 03:59:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/21/the-great-pretender/#comment-488336</guid>
		<description>a journalist or a poseur - can't a bloke be both?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>a journalist or a poseur - can&#8217;t a bloke be both?</p>
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		<title>By: joe2</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/21/the-great-pretender/#comment-488332</link>
		<dc:creator>joe2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 03:56:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/21/the-great-pretender/#comment-488332</guid>
		<description>"Is this guy a journalist or poseur?"

You would have thought Stephen Mayne was correct in predicting the end of his career , generally, some time back. Looks likely there is still a Niche market, at Newscorp, for making up stuff about Rudd and unrestrained promotion of Costello.

Talking of history, some of this blokes best work is still available on "You Tube" as a primary source/saused document.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9v5OsC6GdU&#38;eurl=http://wow-factor.com/index.php/glenn_milne_off_the_stage_again</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Is this guy a journalist or poseur?&#8221;</p>
<p>You would have thought Stephen Mayne was correct in predicting the end of his career , generally, some time back. Looks likely there is still a Niche market, at Newscorp, for making up stuff about Rudd and unrestrained promotion of Costello.</p>
<p>Talking of history, some of this blokes best work is still available on &#8220;You Tube&#8221; as a primary source/saused document.<br />
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9v5OsC6GdU&amp;eurl=http://wow-factor.com/index.php/glenn_milne_off_the_stage_again" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9v5OsC6GdU&amp;eurl=http://wow-factor.com/index.php/glenn_milne_off_the_stage_again</a></p>
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		<title>By: Ambigulous</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/21/the-great-pretender/#comment-488316</link>
		<dc:creator>Ambigulous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 02:53:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/21/the-great-pretender/#comment-488316</guid>
		<description>Yes, Paul

But we shouldn't wait for 30 years, n'est-ce pas? Got to get those interviews with participants on tape now, even if the participant stipulates that it can't be released during their lifetime, whateva.... I understand that Jenny Hocking's biography of the Venerable Gough is due out [vol.1 of two] circa October 2008. Let's hope Gough lives to see it appear.

It'll stir up many old memories. I hope it's not pure hagiography. Meanwhile, he's had his say in a number of his own books and the odd speech or two over the years ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Paul</p>
<p>But we shouldn&#8217;t wait for 30 years, n&#8217;est-ce pas? Got to get those interviews with participants on tape now, even if the participant stipulates that it can&#8217;t be released during their lifetime, whateva&#8230;. I understand that Jenny Hocking&#8217;s biography of the Venerable Gough is due out [vol.1 of two] circa October 2008. Let&#8217;s hope Gough lives to see it appear.</p>
<p>It&#8217;ll stir up many old memories. I hope it&#8217;s not pure hagiography. Meanwhile, he&#8217;s had his say in a number of his own books and the odd speech or two over the years <img src='http://larvatusprodeo.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: nasking</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/21/the-great-pretender/#comment-488312</link>
		<dc:creator>nasking</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 02:39:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/21/the-great-pretender/#comment-488312</guid>
		<description>"There were numerous examples of the “exciting excerpt from new book on politics” thing around in the weekend papers, a phenomenon noted earlier here with regard to Peter Van Onselen and Phillip Senior’s Howard’s End."

Mark, I can't wait for the movie. I'll buy heaps of popcorn to throw at King John's image. And go "yay!" every time Kevin Rudd goes berserker on the media.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;There were numerous examples of the “exciting excerpt from new book on politics” thing around in the weekend papers, a phenomenon noted earlier here with regard to Peter Van Onselen and Phillip Senior’s Howard’s End.&#8221;</p>
<p>Mark, I can&#8217;t wait for the movie. I&#8217;ll buy heaps of popcorn to throw at King John&#8217;s image. And go &#8220;yay!&#8221; every time Kevin Rudd goes berserker on the media.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Burns</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/21/the-great-pretender/#comment-488308</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Burns</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 02:32:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/21/the-great-pretender/#comment-488308</guid>
		<description>Ambi,
Milne used the beltway phrase the lasr time he was on Insiders. Is this guy a journalist or poseur?
These kind of books will have some value for historians in the future, some more than others, by providing a framewotk to start with, and give some ideas o how the participants were seen at the time. Books by actual participants (eg Costello)are of course far more valuable, even if they're little more than self-justification, compared with books by wannabes (eg Milne). The real work begins 30 years in the future when the Government archives, oral/video histories and personal papers of the participants are open, supplemented by interviews with survivors,if any.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ambi,<br />
Milne used the beltway phrase the lasr time he was on Insiders. Is this guy a journalist or poseur?<br />
These kind of books will have some value for historians in the future, some more than others, by providing a framewotk to start with, and give some ideas o how the participants were seen at the time. Books by actual participants (eg Costello)are of course far more valuable, even if they&#8217;re little more than self-justification, compared with books by wannabes (eg Milne). The real work begins 30 years in the future when the Government archives, oral/video histories and personal papers of the participants are open, supplemented by interviews with survivors,if any.</p>
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		<title>By: Ambigulous</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/21/the-great-pretender/#comment-488293</link>
		<dc:creator>Ambigulous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 01:35:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/21/the-great-pretender/#comment-488293</guid>
		<description>Thanks Mark,

I looked at Mr Milne's column. Didn't like what I saw. First, in the printed version (today's Oz) he refers to parts of Canberra as "the beltway". This is a term related to Washington DC is it not? Let that pass.

He refers to some private polling by Nationals during the Gippsland byekection campaign. ALP was on track to win it, then their vote plummeted. Nationals volunteers outnumbered ALP volunteers at the booths. He attributes all this (and the strong result for Darren Chester) to an anti-Rudd sentiment. I think he's wrong.

As noted on LP during the by-election
a) the ALP candidate was not strong [a town cryer FFS, mayor of Sale]
b) Labor candidate had joined ALP a day before nominations, hence
c) resentment by many local branches (including negative public comments by prominenbt members including a well-respected former ALP State Govt Minister), so
d) not surprising that Labor supporters and ALP members might have stayed away from personning booths, and
e) the comments in c) were used in very stark TV ads knocking the ALP candidate, which
f) was part of a very well-funded Nationals TV campaign, along with the ute man n0-tax-on-alcopops ads, Liberal ads, etc

I think that the combination of a) to f) are adequate to explain the swing away from the ALP in Gippsland. As you noted at the time, there was also a Liberal candidate (unlike in Nov 2007) so some drift across to Lib from Nat and ALP was to be expected also. 

Mr Milne's "grand narrative" of voter disaffection with the PM finds no supporting evidence either in the Gippsland result, or in the Nationals' polling, imo.

cheerio</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Mark,</p>
<p>I looked at Mr Milne&#8217;s column. Didn&#8217;t like what I saw. First, in the printed version (today&#8217;s Oz) he refers to parts of Canberra as &#8220;the beltway&#8221;. This is a term related to Washington DC is it not? Let that pass.</p>
<p>He refers to some private polling by Nationals during the Gippsland byekection campaign. ALP was on track to win it, then their vote plummeted. Nationals volunteers outnumbered ALP volunteers at the booths. He attributes all this (and the strong result for Darren Chester) to an anti-Rudd sentiment. I think he&#8217;s wrong.</p>
<p>As noted on LP during the by-election<br />
a) the ALP candidate was not strong [a town cryer FFS, mayor of Sale]<br />
b) Labor candidate had joined ALP a day before nominations, hence<br />
c) resentment by many local branches (including negative public comments by prominenbt members including a well-respected former ALP State Govt Minister), so<br />
d) not surprising that Labor supporters and ALP members might have stayed away from personning booths, and<br />
e) the comments in c) were used in very stark TV ads knocking the ALP candidate, which<br />
f) was part of a very well-funded Nationals TV campaign, along with the ute man n0-tax-on-alcopops ads, Liberal ads, etc</p>
<p>I think that the combination of a) to f) are adequate to explain the swing away from the ALP in Gippsland. As you noted at the time, there was also a Liberal candidate (unlike in Nov 2007) so some drift across to Lib from Nat and ALP was to be expected also. </p>
<p>Mr Milne&#8217;s &#8220;grand narrative&#8221; of voter disaffection with the PM finds no supporting evidence either in the Gippsland result, or in the Nationals&#8217; polling, imo.</p>
<p>cheerio</p>
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