Story: British MPs raise torture concerns
So some politicians have finally noticed that when one group of people define torture so that it includes waterboarding and another group defines torture so that it excludes waterboarding, then the word torture itself becomes stripped of substance in terms of the debate over the ethical and humane treatment of prisoners (let alone which techniques are actually effective at intelligence-gathering).
Took them long enough.
Good on you for keeping the torture issue on the radar, Tigtog. I find it depressing to think that some folk reckon a “civilised society” can engage in such an obscene practice. I hope the Oz ALP has the guts to take this up with Bush. In fact I’d go as far as suggesting an Oz pullout from Afghanistan if the Americans don’t do an abrupt about-face on torture.
“we can’t take American assurances that ……… at face value.”
No. We can’t. For shame. And fuckin’ scary to boot.
Well that’s a coincidence, because I can’t take phoned-in torture claims at face value.
Craig Mc, the problem with the position you’re taking is this: if the Americans could show by their ongoing conduct and reputation that their word was unimpeachable when they claim not to practice torture, then “phoned-in” or otherwise bogus claims of torture could be dismissed more readily. It’s the very questionableness of the American practices that puts the whole thing front and center.
The really weird thing (in light of the particulars of this post) has been that the various allies have somehow not found the right leverage to drive home what is a screamingly obvious case, both ethically and as a utilitarian matter, against these hideous practices. It’s not only astonishing that the Bush crowd can’t see for themselves the self-evident benefits of an ethical m.o., but also that a firm, clear word, backstage from the right quarters, wasn’t sufficient to reverse it, or else hasn’t been executed correctly. It leads one to a larger and rather interesting question, but one that’s sort of controversial, so I won’t derail the thread by bringing it up now. Maybe down the road.
Craig, you can be pretty funny sometimes, but you’re obviously pretty ignorant about this.
Phone-in torture allegations, as opposed to the accusations of the FBI itself?.
Read that post, and the document it links to. If you want to quibble over how much pain qualifies as torture you can to it over at Blair or something.
There is no doubt or ambiguity about whether the US has tortured people. The only questions are how much, how often, and how high up. All the possible answers are disturbing, depressing, and disgusting.
I never doubted the American military tortured their POWs from the GWOT. Just as I never doubt any Australian Government, Coalition or Labor, will ever say boo to Bush on the subject.
But, but, but… “American values are universal” (page 2, last para).