Comments on: Nigerian Evangelicals and violent homophobia http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/ Blogging politics, culture, sociology and life from Brisvegas Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:31:42 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: Adrien http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491800 Adrien Wed, 30 Jul 2008 10:39:36 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491800 Andrew - . I had noted that you did not express your position. I didn't mean to infer that I was commenting upon it. Apologies if I contributed to a misunderstanding. Andrew -
.
I had noted that you did not express your position. I didn’t mean to infer that I was commenting upon it. Apologies if I contributed to a misunderstanding.

]]> By: FDB http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491646 FDB Tue, 29 Jul 2008 23:35:39 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491646 "homosexuals and other sexual outcasts were stoned to death rather than burned to death, as they were in Europe, often at the feet of condemned witches, thus achieving the soubriquet “faggots”." This has the ring of apocryphy to it, NTTAWRT. Got a cite? “homosexuals and other sexual outcasts were stoned to death rather than burned to death, as they were in Europe, often at the feet of condemned witches, thus achieving the soubriquet “faggots”.”

This has the ring of apocryphy to it, NTTAWRT. Got a cite?

]]> By: Katz http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491634 Katz Tue, 29 Jul 2008 22:11:11 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491634 <blockquote>And so hence, among other things, the Jewish and Moslem (another archaic sky god desert religion) prohibitions on eating pork as trichinellosis was rampant at the time in an place and era where there wasn’t enough firewood to properly cook to death the parasites in question.</blockquote> And further, this culturally critical lack of firewood may explain why homosexuals and other sexual outcasts were stoned to death rather than burned to death, as they were in Europe, often at the feet of condemned witches, thus achieving the soubriquet "faggots". PS, there was no shortage of stones in the desert. Contrary to the famous stone-selling scene in "Life of Brian", suitable stones could be found virtually anywhere. The Pythons deserve to be stoned for this falsification of Bible Truth.

And so hence, among other things, the Jewish and Moslem (another archaic sky god desert religion) prohibitions on eating pork as trichinellosis was rampant at the time in an place and era where there wasn’t enough firewood to properly cook to death the parasites in question.

And further, this culturally critical lack of firewood may explain why homosexuals and other sexual outcasts were stoned to death rather than burned to death, as they were in Europe, often at the feet of condemned witches, thus achieving the soubriquet “faggots”.

PS, there was no shortage of stones in the desert. Contrary to the famous stone-selling scene in “Life of Brian”, suitable stones could be found virtually anywhere.

The Pythons deserve to be stoned for this falsification of Bible Truth.

]]> By: Nabakov http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491572 Nabakov Tue, 29 Jul 2008 14:04:17 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491572 "As an interpretive note, most of the Mosaic law was correct for the times it was written, to help shelter and protect a militarily weak group of former slaves wandering in the desert." Pithy summary Andrew. And so hence, among other things, the Jewish and Moslem (another archaic sky god desert religion) prohibitions on eating pork as trichinellosis was rampant at the time in an place and era where there wasn't enough firewood to properly cook to death the parasites in question. “As an interpretive note, most of the Mosaic law was correct for the times it was written, to help shelter and protect a militarily weak group of former slaves wandering in the desert.”

Pithy summary Andrew.

And so hence, among other things, the Jewish and Moslem (another archaic sky god desert religion) prohibitions on eating pork as trichinellosis was rampant at the time in an place and era where there wasn’t enough firewood to properly cook to death the parasites in question.

]]> By: Kim http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491559 Kim Tue, 29 Jul 2008 13:44:10 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491559 Stephen Bates in the Graudian on all this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/29/religion.gayrights?gusrc=rss&feed=commentisfree Stephen Bates in the Graudian on all this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/29/religion.gayrights?gusrc=rss&feed=commentisfree

]]> By: Andrew Reynolds http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491348 Andrew Reynolds Tue, 29 Jul 2008 00:52:11 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491348 Adrien, Many of the Abrahamic faiths have been ignoring the "central rule book" for centuries. I do not, for example, keep slaves - not even from nations nearby. I also eat shellfish. As an interpretive note, most of the Mosaic law was correct for the times it was written, to help shelter and protect a militarily weak group of former slaves wandering in the desert. Like any group of laws they must be set in context - even the groups of "conservative" Protestants in the US tend to cherry-pick the laws they agree with and seem to gloss over the rest, so please cut the Mosaic stuff out of your understanding of the Abrahamic faiths. On to the main point - you may notice if you studiously read my Delphic utterances that I have not said what my position is. I will maintain that stance. My main motivation in engaging here is to try to help to explain why this issue is a difficult one for the church (and the Church) and to try to dispel the idea that it is driven by hatred. . Kim, thanks for your clarification on this. I would agree that the question has arisen from questions of the understanding of sexuality and that cultural positions are a part of this. The Church, however, has held these positions for over 2,500 years and it is only recently, and only in some areas, that the cultural ground has shifted underneath the Church to make this even an issue. The simple fact that the Anglican Church is one of the first of the major churches to start to deal with this internally to me should be cause for at least some respect, rather than the criticism than lampooning that seem to accompany it. Adrien,
Many of the Abrahamic faiths have been ignoring the “central rule book” for centuries. I do not, for example, keep slaves - not even from nations nearby. I also eat shellfish.
As an interpretive note, most of the Mosaic law was correct for the times it was written, to help shelter and protect a militarily weak group of former slaves wandering in the desert. Like any group of laws they must be set in context - even the groups of “conservative” Protestants in the US tend to cherry-pick the laws they agree with and seem to gloss over the rest, so please cut the Mosaic stuff out of your understanding of the Abrahamic faiths.
On to the main point - you may notice if you studiously read my Delphic utterances that I have not said what my position is. I will maintain that stance.
My main motivation in engaging here is to try to help to explain why this issue is a difficult one for the church (and the Church) and to try to dispel the idea that it is driven by hatred.
.
Kim, thanks for your clarification on this. I would agree that the question has arisen from questions of the understanding of sexuality and that cultural positions are a part of this. The Church, however, has held these positions for over 2,500 years and it is only recently, and only in some areas, that the cultural ground has shifted underneath the Church to make this even an issue. The simple fact that the Anglican Church is one of the first of the major churches to start to deal with this internally to me should be cause for at least some respect, rather than the criticism than lampooning that seem to accompany it.

]]> By: Kim http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491264 Kim Mon, 28 Jul 2008 12:49:22 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491264 Further to 29, see this excellent article by Steve Schuh from a biblical studies perspective challenging the conservative interpretation of the biblical take on same sex relations: http://www.integritycanada.org/publications/Challenging_Conventional_Wisdom-Schuh.pdf Further to 29, see this excellent article by Steve Schuh from a biblical studies perspective challenging the conservative interpretation of the biblical take on same sex relations:

http://www.integritycanada.org/publications/Challenging_Conventional_Wisdom-Schuh.pdf

]]> By: Kim http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491263 Kim Mon, 28 Jul 2008 12:44:57 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491263 <blockquote>Leviticus directly prohibits male homosexuality in the direst terms.</blockquote> The old testament stuff is more complex than that actually: http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/sodom.htm And that's even before you get to the issue of whether "male homosexuality" makes any sense in the Biblical cultural context: http://gayspirituality.typepad.com/blog/2007/06/the_role_of_scr.html

Leviticus directly prohibits male homosexuality in the direst terms.

The old testament stuff is more complex than that actually:

http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/sodom.htm

And that’s even before you get to the issue of whether “male homosexuality” makes any sense in the Biblical cultural context:

http://gayspirituality.typepad.com/blog/2007/06/the_role_of_scr.html

]]> By: Katz http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491261 Katz Mon, 28 Jul 2008 12:41:28 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491261 <blockquote>BTW Katz - it may have been funny, but I think your joke there is inappropriately close to be incredibly racist.</blockquote> AR, it is flattering that your reaction to my little joke is identical to contemporary reaction to Swift's little joke that the starving Irish should eat their young.

BTW Katz - it may have been funny, but I think your joke there is inappropriately close to be incredibly racist.

AR, it is flattering that your reaction to my little joke is identical to contemporary reaction to Swift’s little joke that the starving Irish should eat their young.

]]> By: Adrien http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491253 Adrien Mon, 28 Jul 2008 12:25:15 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491253 <blockquote>I believe that it is human to want to choke the living **** out of a person who has a particular position on fractional reserve banking.</blockquote> No. You are lying. :) <blockquote> I believe it is natural to want (from time to time) to engage in some activities that probably would be regarded as morally incorrect by the majority of the population or any church.</blockquote> Yes but in this respect we're talking about a 'sin' which involves life partnership, something ingrained. Unlike, say, stealing or throttling Graeme Bird, it doesn't make victims of anyone. However if you think about the misery produced by compulsory heterosexuality for people who are homosexual that does produce victims. The Abrahamic faiths do have a conundrum which can't be boiled down to bigotry. <i>Leviticus</i> directly prohibits male homosexuality in the direst terms. They can't simply decide to ignore the central rule book text of their religious faiths for modern convenience. . However before all that is the edict that one is to treat others as one would oneself be treated. None of us would like to be forced to engage in sexual activities basically against our will and our desires. Add to this the rather axiomatic situaton that says homosexuality is not optional but innate it does provide problems. . My brother's best friend at school was from a very (my brother reckons ridiculously) devout Catholic family. At the end of high school he realized he was gay. He went thru a lot of mental anguish about this and even went so far as to have my brother rent out porn movies in a bid to 'cure' him. . Naturally it didn't work as my brother said it wouldn't. Luckily for this kid he did have my brother who brought him around to accepting who he was. But I can't help thinking of what transpired between him and his family afterward. Being homosexual is difficult even in the most tolerant of circumstances. For a lot of people however it means permanent alienation from family, violence, depression etc. I simply can't square that with a loving God. . Neither can I square the behaviour of some Christians etc with their creed of love. As I've said I don't think it appropriate to tar all religious people with bigotry but some of them for sure. . I'm also inclined to think of the repressive attitude to sexuality generally as dangerous. Just about every faith that makes extreme repression compulsory (and this includes non-Abrahamic faiths like the Hare Krishna movement) results in sexual crime.

I believe that it is human to want to choke the living **** out of a person who has a particular position on fractional reserve banking.

No. You are lying. :)

I believe it is natural to want (from time to time) to engage in some activities that probably would be regarded as morally incorrect by the majority of the population or any church.

Yes but in this respect we’re talking about a ’sin’ which involves life partnership, something ingrained. Unlike, say, stealing or throttling Graeme Bird, it doesn’t make victims of anyone. However if you think about the misery produced by compulsory heterosexuality for people who are homosexual that does produce victims. The Abrahamic faiths do have a conundrum which can’t be boiled down to bigotry. Leviticus directly prohibits male homosexuality in the direst terms. They can’t simply decide to ignore the central rule book text of their religious faiths for modern convenience.
.
However before all that is the edict that one is to treat others as one would oneself be treated. None of us would like to be forced to engage in sexual activities basically against our will and our desires. Add to this the rather axiomatic situaton that says homosexuality is not optional but innate it does provide problems.
.
My brother’s best friend at school was from a very (my brother reckons ridiculously) devout Catholic family. At the end of high school he realized he was gay. He went thru a lot of mental anguish about this and even went so far as to have my brother rent out porn movies in a bid to ‘cure’ him.
.
Naturally it didn’t work as my brother said it wouldn’t. Luckily for this kid he did have my brother who brought him around to accepting who he was. But I can’t help thinking of what transpired between him and his family afterward. Being homosexual is difficult even in the most tolerant of circumstances. For a lot of people however it means permanent alienation from family, violence, depression etc. I simply can’t square that with a loving God.
.
Neither can I square the behaviour of some Christians etc with their creed of love. As I’ve said I don’t think it appropriate to tar all religious people with bigotry but some of them for sure.
.
I’m also inclined to think of the repressive attitude to sexuality generally as dangerous. Just about every faith that makes extreme repression compulsory (and this includes non-Abrahamic faiths like the Hare Krishna movement) results in sexual crime.

]]> By: Kim http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491252 Kim Mon, 28 Jul 2008 12:24:21 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491252 Here's the latest on Lambeth from Ruth Gledhill at The Times: http://timescolumns.typepad.com/gledhill/2008/07/lambeth-diary-s.html Here’s the latest on Lambeth from Ruth Gledhill at The Times:

http://timescolumns.typepad.com/gledhill/2008/07/lambeth-diary-s.html

]]> By: Kim http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491238 Kim Mon, 28 Jul 2008 11:10:16 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491238 Andrew, I'm sorry if my flip phrase was taken the wrong way. I'd have thought the "teh" should have signalled a bit of irony. I'm sure that some of the bishops in question have genuine doctrinal concerns, while others really are homophobes. But I don't think either motivation, or both, is easily distinguishable from (a) disputes over power and authority in the church or (b) the cultural context of sexuality. Andrew, I’m sorry if my flip phrase was taken the wrong way. I’d have thought the “teh” should have signalled a bit of irony. I’m sure that some of the bishops in question have genuine doctrinal concerns, while others really are homophobes. But I don’t think either motivation, or both, is easily distinguishable from (a) disputes over power and authority in the church or (b) the cultural context of sexuality.

]]> By: Andrew Reynolds http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491236 Andrew Reynolds Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:59:03 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491236 Adrien, I have harboured sinful desires all my life - some of them have even been non-sexual in nature. For example I believe that it is human to want to choke the living **** out of a person who has a particular position on fractional reserve banking. I believe the Church would probably minister against that. Perhaps not. More seriously, though - I believe it is natural to want (from time to time) to engage in some activities that probably would be regarded as morally incorrect by the majority of the population or any church. Any such argument may be regarded as "not exactly pleasant", but a religious organisation has a role in saying what is, or is not, morally right in their opinion. It is (IMHO) up to them to decide what that is or is not and then it is up to their members, and society at large, to take a position on it - or not to care about it. Up to them. Adrien,
I have harboured sinful desires all my life - some of them have even been non-sexual in nature. For example I believe that it is human to want to choke the living **** out of a person who has a particular position on fractional reserve banking. I believe the Church would probably minister against that. Perhaps not.
More seriously, though - I believe it is natural to want (from time to time) to engage in some activities that probably would be regarded as morally incorrect by the majority of the population or any church. Any such argument may be regarded as “not exactly pleasant”, but a religious organisation has a role in saying what is, or is not, morally right in their opinion. It is (IMHO) up to them to decide what that is or is not and then it is up to their members, and society at large, to take a position on it - or not to care about it. Up to them.

]]> By: Adrien http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491231 Adrien Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:42:39 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491231 <blockquote>I do not think it is correct, or even fair, to be typifying it as about “…hatred of teh gay”. </blockquote> No that is true. However when an institution of moral authority says there's something inherently sinful about the desires you harbour it's not exactly pleasant is it.

I do not think it is correct, or even fair, to be typifying it as about “…hatred of teh gay”.

No that is true. However when an institution of moral authority says there’s something inherently sinful about the desires you harbour it’s not exactly pleasant is it.

]]> By: Adrien http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491230 Adrien Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:41:34 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491230 Damn! And I was hoping you were in the market for all my rubber fetish gear! I know I'll go ask Birdy. He's always live. Damn! And I was hoping you were in the market for all my rubber fetish gear!

I know I’ll go ask Birdy. He’s always live.

]]> By: Andrew Reynolds http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491228 Andrew Reynolds Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:36:20 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491228 Adrien, Speak for yourself. I grew out of my S&M phase years ago. :) Adrien,
Speak for yourself. I grew out of my S&M phase years ago. :)

]]> By: Andrew Reynolds http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491225 Andrew Reynolds Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:34:16 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491225 Mark, I have been trying to keep my own views out of this, but I would agree that it was to his credit that he refused and I did not believe at the time (nor do I now) that he should have been treated the way he was. Just to repeat myself, though - I can see the "conservatives" point (whether I agree with it or not is another question), I believe this is an approriate debate for the Church to be having and I do not think it is correct, or even fair, to be typifying it as about "...hatred of teh gay". Mark,
I have been trying to keep my own views out of this, but I would agree that it was to his credit that he refused and I did not believe at the time (nor do I now) that he should have been treated the way he was.
Just to repeat myself, though - I can see the “conservatives” point (whether I agree with it or not is another question), I believe this is an approriate debate for the Church to be having and I do not think it is correct, or even fair, to be typifying it as about “…hatred of teh gay”.

]]> By: Adrien http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491223 Adrien Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:32:37 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491223 Thing is <i>Leviticus</i> also prohibits the wearing of cotton blends and the eating of rabbit and blah blah blah. It's been demonstrated fairly clearly that homosexuality is <i>natural</i>. This begs the question if God hates gays why did He create 'em? . Think about that. God creates people who're as sexually attracted to the same sex as heterosexuals are to the opposite sex. With that level of desire. And then He says: don't do it. Sounds like a right arsehole to me. . Sorry but the history of religion shows that when our stock of reliable information about the cosmos increases to the point that throws into question the assumptions of established religion then the established religion is replaced by something new. It's been a good innings 2500 years or so. See ya. Thing is Leviticus also prohibits the wearing of cotton blends and the eating of rabbit and blah blah blah. It’s been demonstrated fairly clearly that homosexuality is natural. This begs the question if God hates gays why did He create ‘em?
.
Think about that. God creates people who’re as sexually attracted to the same sex as heterosexuals are to the opposite sex. With that level of desire. And then He says: don’t do it. Sounds like a right arsehole to me.
.
Sorry but the history of religion shows that when our stock of reliable information about the cosmos increases to the point that throws into question the assumptions of established religion then the established religion is replaced by something new. It’s been a good innings 2500 years or so. See ya.

]]> By: Adrien http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491222 Adrien Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:25:51 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491222 Christ you lefties are sick and immoral. Everyone knows that when Jesus said treat others as you would have them treat you what he meant was go find some fags and kick the shit out of them. It's Christian love. :) Christ you lefties are sick and immoral. Everyone knows that when Jesus said treat others as you would have them treat you what he meant was go find some fags and kick the shit out of them. It’s Christian love. :)

]]> By: Mark http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491218 Mark Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:17:22 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/07/28/nigerian-evangelicals-and-violent-homophobia/#comment-491218 Well, indeed, Andrew, but note the way that Jeffrey John was bullied into resigning his appointment to the Suffragan See of Reading before his consecration, a process that Rowan Williams - in the end - put into effect. John was living with his partner, but stated that his relationship hadn't been sexual for a long time. According to the new "orthodoxy", that was supposed to be ok, but the bar was raised higher than it had already been set by the conservatives, and he was called on to "publicly repent". To his credit, he refused. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_John Well, indeed, Andrew, but note the way that Jeffrey John was bullied into resigning his appointment to the Suffragan See of Reading before his consecration, a process that Rowan Williams - in the end - put into effect. John was living with his partner, but stated that his relationship hadn’t been sexual for a long time. According to the new “orthodoxy”, that was supposed to be ok, but the bar was raised higher than it had already been set by the conservatives, and he was called on to “publicly repent”. To his credit, he refused.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_John

]]>