Blame the evil spammers for their auto-commenting software - that’s who the filters are meant to catch, but unfortunately the software only gives us blacklist capability, not whitelisting.

See for example this story in The Australian today: Gender tears Athenaeum gentleman’s club apart

Apparently the members of one of Melbourne’s most exclusive men’s clubs are “duelling over women and whether they should be allowed to grace the hallowed hallways of the Athenaeum Club, a leading gentleman’s club since 1866 and traditional home to the city’s power elite.”

Here are some more edited highlights:

But the fight has turned ugly, making some of Melbourne’s corporate titans behave like spoiled little boys; ridiculing, taunting and abusing those who are trying to challenge a 142-year tradition of male dominance.

…the fallout has been far from gentlemanly, splitting the blue-blood club over the issue of women’s rights and their place in society.

But the push to include women was greeted with open hostility by many Athenaeum members. Surprisingly, the strongest opponents were younger men - dubbed the “young fogeys” - who attended several heated meetings in the club, arguing that women would “change the culture, demeanour and openness of the men’s environment”.

When the women’s issue was finally put to a vote last December, via a member’s survey, it was comprehensively defeated. Of the 800 members who replied, 60 per cent opposed female membership, while only 32 per cent supported it.

In an email to a fellow club member, Ian Wilcock wrote: “Particularly shocking to me was the attitudes of younger members. I do not wish to spend any more time pretending to respect the sensitivities of such men, who are clearly unable to adjust to the world as it is and who seem to want to retreat to some kind of boys’ treehouse where they might be untroubled by half the human race.”

(My emphasis)

I assume many of the privileged “younger members” of this exclusive men’s club were educated at elite private schools?

I wonder what sort of values are being taught at these elite private schools and are they compatible with modern society?

Tomorrow night’s program is on Christian education.

Last week’s program was on Muslim education.

Two muslim schools in Sydney were featured, Al Zahra College and Malek Fahd Islamic School.

The program was very positive and it was noted that “Australian values are identical to Islamic values. So we are learning Australian values every day. We’re practising Australian values every day.”

The founding principal of Al Zahra College, Ahmed Mokachar, said “Most of parents when they look at choices to schooling they want more values, more strict discipline. They want more qualified teachers. They also wanted a school to be able to cater for their cultural and religious and spiritual beliefs.”

It was great to see that this school has a civics program. The year sixes were shown learning about Australian parliamentary policy and practicing it in their school context.

Teacher Scott Williams noted: “I guess the idea is to help them develop leadership skills. They learn how to develop ideas, to debate, instead of just argue and shout at each other.”

The story then switched to the Malek Fahd Islamic School.

(It was interesting to hear that this school was founded with money from the Saudi royal family. It was noted that this was a “one-off grant” and the “school’s driving force” Dr Intaj Ali said “after that we have not received any money from Saudi Arabia.”).

Dr Ali described the ethos of the school: “What we do emphasise in the school is very high expectations of everybody and we try and push or encourage students to do better than what they had done previously. So that way everybody is trying to excel.”

Dr Ali also noted “We have taken steps to ensure that our children do not have this ghetto mentality that they are away from the mainstream. Right now in our schools about 50% of the staff is non muslim. This is a deliberate policy on our part. They are not just members of the staff. They are senior members of the staff.”

The Narrator noted that “In 2007 Malek Fahd ’s Year 12 results placed it in the top ten schools in NSW.”

Both schools certainly seemed impressive.

However, I was struck by the school uniforms. While the boys wore a conventional school uniform that didn’t set them too far apart from other school boys, the girls’ uniform was quite different from other girls in “the mainstream”.

At Malek Fahd, it was noted that “Islam is expressed to you at the school through dress. The girls wear hijab, long sleeves, long skirts.”

Here are some quotes from the female students about their uniform:

Because we wear the scarf as part of our school uniform it really plays a major role so we’re representing Islam outside of the school.

It’s also good because if you choose to wear it later on it’s like getting you used to it, getting used to wearing it every day

And because your friends wear it and you feel like okay shall I do it now or when shall I do it. Your peers influence you to wear it. And they guide you to the right path really.

The narrator noted that in the high school it is compulsory to wear the headscarf… (My emphasis).

It was interesting to hear that girls were seen as representing Islam outside the school by their uniform, yet the boys weren’t similarly required to identify themselves in a “non-mainstream” way.

I recently came across an article by a Muslim woman, Zubia Malik, writing in the New Statesman – Hijab, the dress code for Muslim women?

A very interesting article…and the comments attached to the article are also worth a look…

Here are a few quotes from Ms Malik:

The first step seemed somewhat simple for me: wear the ‘hijab’ (veil) and that would be making a statement to me and to others that I am a true ‘Muslim woman.’ Modest and dignified. I know for a lot of women embracing Islam that this is fundamental to their journey because either their understanding from the Hadith and Sunna (what is understood to be the practices of the Prophet Muhammad) leads them to this conclusion or they are told by others in their local Muslim community that this is a requirement upon all women entering Islam.

I am in no way against those women who wear the hijab as part of the modest dress code but I am concerned about those who are teaching others about Islam and promote the hijab as the only modest way for a Muslim woman to dress.

Removing the hijab for some may be seen as a form of regression but ironically for me it has been a test in understanding what God has asked of me, bearing in mind that wearing the veil is certainly not forbidden but equally neither is it a requirement for me using the Quran. Many Muslim women may disagree with my understanding of the dress code for women in Islam, however, they cannot use the Quran to promote their version of the dress code.

it is apparent that views that run counter to the prevailing LP “left of centre” perspective aren’t particularly welcome

Here we see the Catch-22 - if Elizabeth’s comments were ignored, we’d all be snobs, yet if they are engaged and disagreed with, she’s being shouted down.

It appears that nothing less than kowtowing to Elizabeth’s opinions is sufficiently civil consideration of her side of an argument.

This thread has been totally derailed

When did you make that discovery Helen?

When I originally clicked on this thread, in the right-hand column, I did so because I was attracted by the title: My ideal is: all children in state schools. I guess this is my ideal too, that state education would be so good, parents wouldn’t even feel the need to enrol their children in private schools.

My ideal state school would provide an excellent education for students of all aptitudes, and prepare them to be “good citizens”. Students would be taught to aspire to an (updated and fully inclusive of all men and women) version of Aristotle’s concept of “the good life”, and endeavour to become virtuous citizens.

The quality of a state is dependent upon the quality of its citizens, and I have been influenced by John Stuart Mill’s idealistic views on democracy and its capacity to improve human society, i.e. his concept of “good government”, the principal element of which is “the improvement of the people themselves”. (John Stuart Mill, Considerations on Representative Government).

I was prepared to make a contribution along these lines, also wondering if “Good Citizenship” classes, including discussion on ethics and philosophy, are provided in schools? (Note: This article: School choice is ‘guesswork’: Julia Gillard is relevant.)

However on entering the thread, I discovered it was actually about Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s supposed beliefs about Muslim schools and had descended into an ad hominem attack on Hirsi Ali by some people who obviously think they are her intellectual superior.

In order to try and provide some balance, I have endeavoured to provide another perspective, on the general topic “women and freedom” including references and links. (I note Klaus K seems to think his opinion overrides my experience as a woman. Apparently, he thinks it is up to him to dictate which categories women fall into, and it seems the “lived experience in concrete circumstances” (# 105) of what he terms “middle-class white women” aren’t worthy of consideration.)

Women’s freedom is very pertinent to education, particularly if a religion (any religion) teaches the subordination of women – this would be at variance with a state where both men and women are equal before the law.

I’ve spent some time and thought preparing my posts in a spirit of contribution, but it is apparent that views that run counter to the prevailing LP “left of centre” perspective aren’t particularly welcome.

I understand where George Megalogenis and Christian Kerr are coming from.

One sided arguments are a bit of a bore to respond to, not to mention time-consuming in trying to balance against the weight of negative opinion, so I’ll take myself off now, and when I feel the need to express an opinion, I’ll try to find a civil blog which is prepared to consider all sides of an argument.

I think you are the one who is “unsettled” Klaus K, judging by your overbearing and patronising response. And yes, you sum it up very well, I do think “anonymity amounts to cowardice”, particularly when criticism is directed towards a person who has publicly stood up for his or her views.

As a woman I appreciate the works of John Stuart Mill, particularly The Subjection of Women, On Liberty and Considerations on Representative Government. Others may do as they please. Perhaps they would prefer to live in a world where these works hadn’t seen the light of day?

As for “third world Muslim women”, I wonder if they would be relieved to know that you are on the case? And I wonder how many “third world Muslim women” will ever have the opportunity to read Mill and decide for themselves?

Islam is inherently misogynistic, and no reference to the “lived experience” of these women can change this.

Not sure this isn’t a total crock sorry. You must understand that, just like Christinaity, Islam had to accomodate itself to the local cultures which ranged from highly sophisticated places like Persia to fairly rustic places like Afghanistan. Islam is patriarchal as all Abrahamic faiths are. So are virtually all the creeds in the Levant. It tends to vary from place to place.
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It’s worth remembering that Turkey was one of the first places to give women the vote. It’s also worth noting that feminists in Egypt actually went back to traditional dress in the 1980s. In the 1970s when I lived there the veil wasn’t scene amongst urbane women much.
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The purpose of the veil - the burqua is not prescribed - is simply modesty. Men are supposed to wear beards pretty much for the same reason. It tempers the tyranny of beauty. Jews have followed the same codes and until the 14th century so did Christians.
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Of course as I said all of these faiths are sexist and misogynists groove on sexism.

I have not called for the banning of any religion. I must repeat this - because you apparently are not paying attention - we only have to stop giving State Aid, and these religious schools will die a natural death. And even before we do this, we have to have a proper auditing of the moneys paid - even overpaid - to private schools under Howard’s deal.

“…wealthy church schools had been overpaid more than $2 billion under the SES formula.”

http://www.adogs.info/pr246.htm

This thread has been TOTALLY derailed. I thought it was about the widespread acceptance of the idea that public, inclusive education is desirable as an antidote to the ghettoisation of religious people - something I would have thought you and EH would cheer. And it doesn’t mean, and is not predicated on, the banning of any religion. (I’m not about to approve of making people wear yellow crescents!)

Bullshit. Talibani women are repressed whether they feel they are repressed or not.

*sigh*

Yeah, well I walked through the maternity ward and saw 218 babies wearing nylons, and you don’t see me putting that in a concept album.