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	<title>Comments on: Mutual obligation and Indigenous policy</title>
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	<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/15/mutual-obligation-and-indigenous-policy/</link>
	<description>Life, Culture and Politics from BrisVegas</description>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/15/mutual-obligation-and-indigenous-policy/#comment-221649</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 12:48:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/15/mutual-obligation-and-indigenous-policy/#comment-221649</guid>
		<description>I can assure Lord Sir Sidney that teachers don&#039;t really welcome trying to teach a bunch of kids who really don&#039;t want to be there. With too many unwilling souls in the class the tendency is that the whole show becomes impossible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can assure Lord Sir Sidney that teachers don&#8217;t really welcome trying to teach a bunch of kids who really don&#8217;t want to be there. With too many unwilling souls in the class the tendency is that the whole show becomes impossible.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/15/mutual-obligation-and-indigenous-policy/#comment-221648</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 06:37:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/15/mutual-obligation-and-indigenous-policy/#comment-221648</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;But teaching levels are not coping with the new influx of students.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

And what&#039;s the source for that statistic? An assertion by a reporter. In any case, whoever mentioned &quot;abject failure&quot;? The whole point of the report which is the subject of this post is that school attendance per se is meaningless in the absence of effective schooling, and the capacity of children to benefit from schooling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>But teaching levels are not coping with the new influx of students.</p></blockquote>
<p>And what&#8217;s the source for that statistic? An assertion by a reporter. In any case, whoever mentioned &#8220;abject failure&#8221;? The whole point of the report which is the subject of this post is that school attendance per se is meaningless in the absence of effective schooling, and the capacity of children to benefit from schooling.</p>
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		<title>By: Lord Sir Sidney Snott</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/15/mutual-obligation-and-indigenous-policy/#comment-221647</link>
		<dc:creator>Lord Sir Sidney Snott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 06:14:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/15/mutual-obligation-and-indigenous-policy/#comment-221647</guid>
		<description>Kim sez:

&quot;Err, Lord Sir etc, you have an odd notion of evidence, particularly in the last report you linked to which isn’t all that upbeat about school attendance.&quot;

Link sez:

&quot;Attendance rates at remote Indigenous schools have jumped 20 to 30 per cent since the Federal Government intervention in the northern territory.&quot;

Yup. A 20 to 30 per cent improvement is an abject failure alright.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kim sez:</p>
<p>&#8220;Err, Lord Sir etc, you have an odd notion of evidence, particularly in the last report you linked to which isn’t all that upbeat about school attendance.&#8221;</p>
<p>Link sez:</p>
<p>&#8220;Attendance rates at remote Indigenous schools have jumped 20 to 30 per cent since the Federal Government intervention in the northern territory.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yup. A 20 to 30 per cent improvement is an abject failure alright.</p>
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		<title>By: Lord Sir Sidney Snott</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/15/mutual-obligation-and-indigenous-policy/#comment-221646</link>
		<dc:creator>Lord Sir Sidney Snott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 07:26:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/15/mutual-obligation-and-indigenous-policy/#comment-221646</guid>
		<description>In response to my comment that Pearson, Kim says:

&quot;As to your comment about Pearson, who said that? Yet another example of importing a whole lot of assumptions about “sides” in the debate.&quot;


Obviously you don&#039;t bother reading what your co-commentator Mark Bahnisch says. He has made multiple comments such as this:

&quot;I’d be more than happy if Indigenous people themselves got to elect their leaders, rather than the loudest voice with the most access to the whitefella press getting the gong as a “leader”. If people like Mundine and Pearson have standing sufficient to succeed in a democratic process, then, for mine, that would give more legitimacy to their interventions.&quot;  http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/04/19/spare-a-thought-for-jackie-huggins/#comment-458400

I suggest you take your own advice and listen rather than &quot;import assumptions&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In response to my comment that Pearson, Kim says:</p>
<p>&#8220;As to your comment about Pearson, who said that? Yet another example of importing a whole lot of assumptions about “sides” in the debate.&#8221;</p>
<p>Obviously you don&#8217;t bother reading what your co-commentator Mark Bahnisch says. He has made multiple comments such as this:</p>
<p>&#8220;I’d be more than happy if Indigenous people themselves got to elect their leaders, rather than the loudest voice with the most access to the whitefella press getting the gong as a “leader”. If people like Mundine and Pearson have standing sufficient to succeed in a democratic process, then, for mine, that would give more legitimacy to their interventions.&#8221;  <a href="http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/04/19/spare-a-thought-for-jackie-huggins/#comment-458400" rel="nofollow">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/04/19/spare-a-thought-for-jackie-huggins/#comment-458400</a></p>
<p>I suggest you take your own advice and listen rather than &#8220;import assumptions&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Kim</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/15/mutual-obligation-and-indigenous-policy/#comment-221645</link>
		<dc:creator>Kim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 10:39:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/15/mutual-obligation-and-indigenous-policy/#comment-221645</guid>
		<description>I think that&#039;s the same thing, in a way, BiteTheDust, because the new orthodoxy lacks any mutuality (despite its protestations) and often lacks any dimension of consultation let alone empowering communities. So in effect it&#039;s a one way form of action.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that&#8217;s the same thing, in a way, BiteTheDust, because the new orthodoxy lacks any mutuality (despite its protestations) and often lacks any dimension of consultation let alone empowering communities. So in effect it&#8217;s a one way form of action.</p>
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		<title>By: BiteTheDust</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/15/mutual-obligation-and-indigenous-policy/#comment-221644</link>
		<dc:creator>BiteTheDust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 10:33:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/15/mutual-obligation-and-indigenous-policy/#comment-221644</guid>
		<description>Where I went to school I was taught evidence is more than the occasional news story. Crikey has many stories on the intervention, most of them negative. The news article pointed out in the second comment does not say how many people were tested. Perhaps that is why notifications are down. Perhaps the younger teenagers do not feel comfortable coming into the clinic as they once did.

I do get a little tired with government types who don&#039;t come out as it is too far to come. It is remote. It does take time to visit. Or to understand.

I am unsure that there is a new orthodoxy. More that terms and conditions relevant in one culture are trying to be imposed on another.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where I went to school I was taught evidence is more than the occasional news story. Crikey has many stories on the intervention, most of them negative. The news article pointed out in the second comment does not say how many people were tested. Perhaps that is why notifications are down. Perhaps the younger teenagers do not feel comfortable coming into the clinic as they once did.</p>
<p>I do get a little tired with government types who don&#8217;t come out as it is too far to come. It is remote. It does take time to visit. Or to understand.</p>
<p>I am unsure that there is a new orthodoxy. More that terms and conditions relevant in one culture are trying to be imposed on another.</p>
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		<title>By: Kim</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/15/mutual-obligation-and-indigenous-policy/#comment-221643</link>
		<dc:creator>Kim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 10:31:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/15/mutual-obligation-and-indigenous-policy/#comment-221643</guid>
		<description>Interesting results from a survey on the Intervention by the Central Land Council in Alice Springs:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/08/15/2336727.htm

An indication of how distorted these debates gets comes from the following quote from Warren Mundine - responding to criticisms about the one size fits all model of the Intervention:

&lt;blockquote&gt;At the same time though, he makes no excuses for the way the intervention was rolled out.

He says the former government was left with little choice after seeing the stories of sexual abuse in last year&#039;s Little Children are Sacred report.

&quot;I challenge anyone in the cafe latte drinking set of Sydney and everyone else, if you have those sort of statistics in a suburb of Sydney that you are not going to send the police in,&quot; Mr Mundine said.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

In fact what he&#039;s responding to is the view of Indigenous people in the Territory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting results from a survey on the Intervention by the Central Land Council in Alice Springs:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/08/15/2336727.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/08/15/2336727.htm</a></p>
<p>An indication of how distorted these debates gets comes from the following quote from Warren Mundine &#8211; responding to criticisms about the one size fits all model of the Intervention:</p>
<blockquote><p>At the same time though, he makes no excuses for the way the intervention was rolled out.</p>
<p>He says the former government was left with little choice after seeing the stories of sexual abuse in last year&#8217;s Little Children are Sacred report.</p>
<p>&#8220;I challenge anyone in the cafe latte drinking set of Sydney and everyone else, if you have those sort of statistics in a suburb of Sydney that you are not going to send the police in,&#8221; Mr Mundine said.</p></blockquote>
<p>In fact what he&#8217;s responding to is the view of Indigenous people in the Territory.</p>
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		<title>By: Polyquats</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/15/mutual-obligation-and-indigenous-policy/#comment-221642</link>
		<dc:creator>Polyquats</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 09:20:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/15/mutual-obligation-and-indigenous-policy/#comment-221642</guid>
		<description>I have to agree with Roger, Larissa and Yuwalk. I&#039;ve been out of the field for a long time, but 25 years ago when I was involved in organisations fighting new and extended liquor licences in Alice Springs, and dealing with the outcomes of the Hawke Government&#039;s first attempt to come to terms with the stolen generation, &#039;set up to fail&#039; was the standard outcome of all indigenous initiatives. There were lots of initiatives and proposals coming from indigenous groups and communities and all were given just enough funding to attempt, but not succeed, at whatever was proposed.

I despair at hearing the debates these days, knowing that we were having the same debates 25 years ago. I get even more despairing at how quickly we forget the the things that failed. As an example, does anyone remember why we pulled police from Aboriginal Communities in the first place? &#039;Deaths in Custody&#039; anyone?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to agree with Roger, Larissa and Yuwalk. I&#8217;ve been out of the field for a long time, but 25 years ago when I was involved in organisations fighting new and extended liquor licences in Alice Springs, and dealing with the outcomes of the Hawke Government&#8217;s first attempt to come to terms with the stolen generation, &#8216;set up to fail&#8217; was the standard outcome of all indigenous initiatives. There were lots of initiatives and proposals coming from indigenous groups and communities and all were given just enough funding to attempt, but not succeed, at whatever was proposed.</p>
<p>I despair at hearing the debates these days, knowing that we were having the same debates 25 years ago. I get even more despairing at how quickly we forget the the things that failed. As an example, does anyone remember why we pulled police from Aboriginal Communities in the first place? &#8216;Deaths in Custody&#8217; anyone?</p>
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		<title>By: paul walter</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/15/mutual-obligation-and-indigenous-policy/#comment-221641</link>
		<dc:creator>paul walter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 09:11:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/15/mutual-obligation-and-indigenous-policy/#comment-221641</guid>
		<description>I agree with Roger and Yuwalk.
I beleive they have surreptitiously retreived some of the worst elements of Howard&#039;s policy, and that goes back to the reasons for the original.
 Quite apart from the profiteeering aspect, the ideological reasons for privatisation of aboriginal property have been enthusiastically canvassed by the likes of Pearson.
 The other significant covert reason would be the opportunity for a back door onslaught on welfare in general. No hope of taking away white welfare if the blackfellas are still receiving it. Also suits the prejudices of the mortgage belt and ideological bent of a new crew of neo liberals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Roger and Yuwalk.<br />
I beleive they have surreptitiously retreived some of the worst elements of Howard&#8217;s policy, and that goes back to the reasons for the original.<br />
 Quite apart from the profiteeering aspect, the ideological reasons for privatisation of aboriginal property have been enthusiastically canvassed by the likes of Pearson.<br />
 The other significant covert reason would be the opportunity for a back door onslaught on welfare in general. No hope of taking away white welfare if the blackfellas are still receiving it. Also suits the prejudices of the mortgage belt and ideological bent of a new crew of neo liberals.</p>
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		<title>By: Yuwalk</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/15/mutual-obligation-and-indigenous-policy/#comment-221640</link>
		<dc:creator>Yuwalk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 07:38:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/15/mutual-obligation-and-indigenous-policy/#comment-221640</guid>
		<description>I have been working in East Arnhemland for a few years now and I have to agree with Larissa Behrendt. There are plenty of problems in the Indigenous domain, but largely it is Government, which is failing in its responsibility.

I think on the individual level personal responsibility has its place, but I would first ask the question, at which point in Australia&#039;s history has Indigenous disadvantage been adequately redressed?

One of the few things that was good about the NT Emergency Response was that it started to fund Indigenous communities appropriately. It is just sad that the only way it was possible to do this is in a victim blaming way where the aboriginal had to be saved from themselves by the superior white man.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have been working in East Arnhemland for a few years now and I have to agree with Larissa Behrendt. There are plenty of problems in the Indigenous domain, but largely it is Government, which is failing in its responsibility.</p>
<p>I think on the individual level personal responsibility has its place, but I would first ask the question, at which point in Australia&#8217;s history has Indigenous disadvantage been adequately redressed?</p>
<p>One of the few things that was good about the NT Emergency Response was that it started to fund Indigenous communities appropriately. It is just sad that the only way it was possible to do this is in a victim blaming way where the aboriginal had to be saved from themselves by the superior white man.</p>
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