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	<title>Comments on: Water tanks, round 247</title>
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	<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/26/tanks-vs-desal-round-247/</link>
	<description>Life, Culture and Politics from BrisVegas</description>
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		<title>By: michael</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/26/tanks-vs-desal-round-247/#comment-223418</link>
		<dc:creator>michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2008 11:13:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/26/tanks-vs-desal-round-247/#comment-223418</guid>
		<description>The future of household water tanks is not in question.  We keep importing people and the rainfall keeps decreasing.  Blind Freddy can see that this issue is not going to go away.

I installed a 30 000 L undergound tank a year and a half ago which I then turfed over.  Not only do I have plenty of garden water, but I am helping the community by not putting my stormwater onto the street to cause erosion and cost tax dollars to deal with.  Best feature is that no-one knows that there is a tank on the block.

MY PREDICTION:  In decades to come this will be the norm.  The tank will be under the house and new houses will be constructed on top of the tank.  A win-win.  My tank cost about $12 000.  It was an after-thought.  Designing as an integral part of the house would have brought down the cost and provided solid foundations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The future of household water tanks is not in question.  We keep importing people and the rainfall keeps decreasing.  Blind Freddy can see that this issue is not going to go away.</p>
<p>I installed a 30 000 L undergound tank a year and a half ago which I then turfed over.  Not only do I have plenty of garden water, but I am helping the community by not putting my stormwater onto the street to cause erosion and cost tax dollars to deal with.  Best feature is that no-one knows that there is a tank on the block.</p>
<p>MY PREDICTION:  In decades to come this will be the norm.  The tank will be under the house and new houses will be constructed on top of the tank.  A win-win.  My tank cost about $12 000.  It was an after-thought.  Designing as an integral part of the house would have brought down the cost and provided solid foundations.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/26/tanks-vs-desal-round-247/#comment-223417</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 13:58:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/26/tanks-vs-desal-round-247/#comment-223417</guid>
		<description>My main interest in water tanks stems from the fact that we are running out of catchments. In most of the bad years this century we&#039;ve have 150,000 litres or more fall on our roof, not counting the shed and the carport. The catchments in SEQ tend to be further inland where the rain is less, and less reliable. You also have to wet the catchment (usually 50mm) before you get any runoff. The costs &lt;a href=&quot;http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/26/tanks-vs-desal-round-247/#comment-499415&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;quoted by Roger Jones&lt;/a&gt; bring tanks back into the frame.

I&#039;d like to think there could be a subsidy equivalent to the cost of supplying bulk water from the dam. It should apply whether you are connecting to the house plumbing or not because having a garden is park of the amenity of living.

There is an argument abroad that says you shouldn&#039;t privatise your water. Today on Bush Telegraph &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.abc.net.au/rural/telegraph/content/2006/s2348926.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Maude Barlowe put the point very strongly&lt;/a&gt;. She cited an urban slum in South Africa where a million people couldn&#039;t afford town water so they were drawing it from a local river ignoring the cholera signs.

She then cited Chicago where 42,000 residents, mostly black and poor, were cut off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My main interest in water tanks stems from the fact that we are running out of catchments. In most of the bad years this century we&#8217;ve have 150,000 litres or more fall on our roof, not counting the shed and the carport. The catchments in SEQ tend to be further inland where the rain is less, and less reliable. You also have to wet the catchment (usually 50mm) before you get any runoff. The costs <a href="http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/26/tanks-vs-desal-round-247/#comment-499415" rel="nofollow">quoted by Roger Jones</a> bring tanks back into the frame.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d like to think there could be a subsidy equivalent to the cost of supplying bulk water from the dam. It should apply whether you are connecting to the house plumbing or not because having a garden is park of the amenity of living.</p>
<p>There is an argument abroad that says you shouldn&#8217;t privatise your water. Today on Bush Telegraph <a href="http://www.abc.net.au/rural/telegraph/content/2006/s2348926.htm" rel="nofollow">Maude Barlowe put the point very strongly</a>. She cited an urban slum in South Africa where a million people couldn&#8217;t afford town water so they were drawing it from a local river ignoring the cholera signs.</p>
<p>She then cited Chicago where 42,000 residents, mostly black and poor, were cut off.</p>
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		<title>By: joe2</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/26/tanks-vs-desal-round-247/#comment-223416</link>
		<dc:creator>joe2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 08:17:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/26/tanks-vs-desal-round-247/#comment-223416</guid>
		<description>Laura,
   I looked into what you asked about on solar hot water recently and was concerned about the need/expense of an electrical pump to run the water to the panel. If you live in an area where there are frosts, they told me, the panels can pop. Just sayin...and no shares in product above that seems to heat water for when it is needed rather than have hot water heated all the time, like ours.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Laura,<br />
   I looked into what you asked about on solar hot water recently and was concerned about the need/expense of an electrical pump to run the water to the panel. If you live in an area where there are frosts, they told me, the panels can pop. Just sayin&#8230;and no shares in product above that seems to heat water for when it is needed rather than have hot water heated all the time, like ours.</p>
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		<title>By: joe2</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/26/tanks-vs-desal-round-247/#comment-223415</link>
		<dc:creator>joe2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 02:13:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/26/tanks-vs-desal-round-247/#comment-223415</guid>
		<description>And Laura as Robert said, if you have piped gas, 5.5 Star Energy Ratings, are very good and much easier on the initial up front costs when you have a roof to replace.

http://www.bosch.com.au/content/language1/html/4188.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And Laura as Robert said, if you have piped gas, 5.5 Star Energy Ratings, are very good and much easier on the initial up front costs when you have a roof to replace.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bosch.com.au/content/language1/html/4188.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.bosch.com.au/content/language1/html/4188.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: laura</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/26/tanks-vs-desal-round-247/#comment-223414</link>
		<dc:creator>laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 01:42:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/26/tanks-vs-desal-round-247/#comment-223414</guid>
		<description>Good answers, thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good answers, thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Mindy</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/26/tanks-vs-desal-round-247/#comment-223413</link>
		<dc:creator>Mindy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 01:30:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/26/tanks-vs-desal-round-247/#comment-223413</guid>
		<description>When we bought ours the company bought the RECs back from us, effectively reducing the cost of the system. So, the company can pretty much sell and buy back the same RECs. However, using less of other power sources to heat our water was the big idea for us. Swings and roundabouts, but in the short term you quarterly electricity bill is less.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When we bought ours the company bought the RECs back from us, effectively reducing the cost of the system. So, the company can pretty much sell and buy back the same RECs. However, using less of other power sources to heat our water was the big idea for us. Swings and roundabouts, but in the short term you quarterly electricity bill is less.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Merkel</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/26/tanks-vs-desal-round-247/#comment-223412</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Merkel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 01:05:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/26/tanks-vs-desal-round-247/#comment-223412</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Actually can I ask for some advice? Is a solar hot water system a good idea?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Simple question.  Complex answer, in part because of the regulatory complexities both now and in the future.

If you&#039;ve got piped gas, that&#039;s lower-emission than solar-electric.  Solar-gas is the lowest of all, but a modern gas system isn&#039;t too bad.

The second complication is what the response of the rest of the Australian energy sector to your solar hot water system.  As Barry Brook was discussing &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://bravenewclimate.com/2008/08/26/make-the-switch-to-greenpower-and-make-virtually-no-difference-to-your-carbon-emissions/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/A&gt;, most people sell the &quot;renewable energy credits&quot; they receive when they put in a solar hot water system.  If you do so, that&#039;s fewer REC&#039;s that the power companies have to buy from other sources, such as wind farms.   Yep, putting in solar hot water means less wind farms get built.

So, if you can afford it, if you&#039;re going to install a solar hot water system and you don&#039;t want to displace other renewables, don&#039;t sell your RECs.  However, this adds substantially to the cost.

When the ETS kicks in, something similar is going to occur.  If you voluntarily take actions that reduce your carbon emissions, this means that there will be more permits on the market for somebody else to use.

What this means is that the only way for you to reduce Australia&#039;s net carbon emissions and ensure that you&#039;re not just displacing emissions (at least domestically) is to buy ETS permits and stick them under the bed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Actually can I ask for some advice? Is a solar hot water system a good idea?</p></blockquote>
<p>Simple question.  Complex answer, in part because of the regulatory complexities both now and in the future.</p>
<p>If you&#8217;ve got piped gas, that&#8217;s lower-emission than solar-electric.  Solar-gas is the lowest of all, but a modern gas system isn&#8217;t too bad.</p>
<p>The second complication is what the response of the rest of the Australian energy sector to your solar hot water system.  As Barry Brook was discussing <a HREF="http://bravenewclimate.com/2008/08/26/make-the-switch-to-greenpower-and-make-virtually-no-difference-to-your-carbon-emissions/" rel="nofollow">here</a>, most people sell the &#8220;renewable energy credits&#8221; they receive when they put in a solar hot water system.  If you do so, that&#8217;s fewer REC&#8217;s that the power companies have to buy from other sources, such as wind farms.   Yep, putting in solar hot water means less wind farms get built.</p>
<p>So, if you can afford it, if you&#8217;re going to install a solar hot water system and you don&#8217;t want to displace other renewables, don&#8217;t sell your RECs.  However, this adds substantially to the cost.</p>
<p>When the ETS kicks in, something similar is going to occur.  If you voluntarily take actions that reduce your carbon emissions, this means that there will be more permits on the market for somebody else to use.</p>
<p>What this means is that the only way for you to reduce Australia&#8217;s net carbon emissions and ensure that you&#8217;re not just displacing emissions (at least domestically) is to buy ETS permits and stick them under the bed.</p>
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		<title>By: Mindy</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/26/tanks-vs-desal-round-247/#comment-223411</link>
		<dc:creator>Mindy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 00:55:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/26/tanks-vs-desal-round-247/#comment-223411</guid>
		<description>We love our solar hot water system. Love it. In winter, as long as I do the washing in the morning after showers, we can get everyone (2 kids and 2 adults) through the showers with heaps of hot water left. In summer I can wash any time of the day and there is still heaps of hot water. Even though you are further south than us, I&#039;d still reckon solar hot water would work for you. We need to use the booster for cloudy days, but not very often and usually only during winter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We love our solar hot water system. Love it. In winter, as long as I do the washing in the morning after showers, we can get everyone (2 kids and 2 adults) through the showers with heaps of hot water left. In summer I can wash any time of the day and there is still heaps of hot water. Even though you are further south than us, I&#8217;d still reckon solar hot water would work for you. We need to use the booster for cloudy days, but not very often and usually only during winter.</p>
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		<title>By: laura</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/26/tanks-vs-desal-round-247/#comment-223410</link>
		<dc:creator>laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 00:39:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/26/tanks-vs-desal-round-247/#comment-223410</guid>
		<description>This is a very informative thread.

I water a lot of my food plants with grey water when it&#039;s what&#039;s available (from the front loader mainly, with Euca washing powder in it.)  All the fruit trees (lemon, mandarine, guava, three pears, two apples, an apricot and an avocado) the raspberries and blueberries, and any other plants that you eat the fruit or seeds of rather than leaves or roots (tomatoes, beans, peas, passionfruit, cucmber, zucchini, pumpkin, capsicum, corn.)

There might be consequences for the soil down the track and this worries me.  But the most concerning health risk is the possibility of injuring myself lugging buckets of water around, as Brian noted.  I&#039;ve fallen over twice, holding heavy buckets, on the concrete laundry floor when it was slippery with drips of water.

I don&#039;t have a rainwater tank yet because the roof needs replacing (this summer I hope.)

Actually can I ask for some advice?  Is a solar hot water system a good idea?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a very informative thread.</p>
<p>I water a lot of my food plants with grey water when it&#8217;s what&#8217;s available (from the front loader mainly, with Euca washing powder in it.)  All the fruit trees (lemon, mandarine, guava, three pears, two apples, an apricot and an avocado) the raspberries and blueberries, and any other plants that you eat the fruit or seeds of rather than leaves or roots (tomatoes, beans, peas, passionfruit, cucmber, zucchini, pumpkin, capsicum, corn.)</p>
<p>There might be consequences for the soil down the track and this worries me.  But the most concerning health risk is the possibility of injuring myself lugging buckets of water around, as Brian noted.  I&#8217;ve fallen over twice, holding heavy buckets, on the concrete laundry floor when it was slippery with drips of water.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t have a rainwater tank yet because the roof needs replacing (this summer I hope.)</p>
<p>Actually can I ask for some advice?  Is a solar hot water system a good idea?</p>
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		<title>By: wbb</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/26/tanks-vs-desal-round-247/#comment-223409</link>
		<dc:creator>wbb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 13:52:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/08/26/tanks-vs-desal-round-247/#comment-223409</guid>
		<description>Derrida Derider says that pricing water properly is the better way to reduce water consumption. But nobody is proposing that.

The tank solution is actually competing with other massive engineering solutions which cost lots of money and cause lots of CO2 pollution and/or environmental damage.

If we stick to what&#039;s actually on the table tanks are a better bet. Better than CO2 polluting desal and ecology destroying pipelines.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Derrida Derider says that pricing water properly is the better way to reduce water consumption. But nobody is proposing that.</p>
<p>The tank solution is actually competing with other massive engineering solutions which cost lots of money and cause lots of CO2 pollution and/or environmental damage.</p>
<p>If we stick to what&#8217;s actually on the table tanks are a better bet. Better than CO2 polluting desal and ecology destroying pipelines.</p>
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