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	<title>Comments on: (Private) education revolution?</title>
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	<description>Life, Culture and Politics from BrisVegas</description>
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		<title>By: Chris (a different one)</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/09/03/private-education-revolution/#comment-214140</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris (a different one)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2008 11:34:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/09/03/private-education-revolution/#comment-214140</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Literacy isn’t in decline. It’s mainly mathematics that is. This of course is a good example of why it is probably *not* the fault of the schools. If schools were really getting generally worse overall, we would expect a decline in both.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Or it could be that maths/science teacher quality has declined but teaching other areas hasn&#039;t (there is a shortage of maths teachers so that wouldn&#039;t be surprising). I&#039;d take a guess and say there are increasingly more better paying jobs available for those with maths skills compared to a couple of decades ago.

Alternatively it may be that the curriculum is putting less emphasis on maths and science these days. Schools are increasingly being expected to do a lot more. Or perhaps its the way that maths/science is taught these days - from what I have seen of exam questions it looks like higher literacy skills are required.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Literacy isn’t in decline. It’s mainly mathematics that is. This of course is a good example of why it is probably *not* the fault of the schools. If schools were really getting generally worse overall, we would expect a decline in both.</p></blockquote>
<p>Or it could be that maths/science teacher quality has declined but teaching other areas hasn&#8217;t (there is a shortage of maths teachers so that wouldn&#8217;t be surprising). I&#8217;d take a guess and say there are increasingly more better paying jobs available for those with maths skills compared to a couple of decades ago.</p>
<p>Alternatively it may be that the curriculum is putting less emphasis on maths and science these days. Schools are increasingly being expected to do a lot more. Or perhaps its the way that maths/science is taught these days &#8211; from what I have seen of exam questions it looks like higher literacy skills are required.</p>
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		<title>By: conrad</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/09/03/private-education-revolution/#comment-214139</link>
		<dc:creator>conrad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2008 08:07:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot;Now what are the reasons for declining literacy?&quot;

Literacy isn&#039;t in decline. It&#039;s mainly mathematics that is. This of course is a good example of why it is probably *not* the fault of the schools. If schools were really getting generally worse overall, we would expect a decline in both.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Now what are the reasons for declining literacy?&#8221;</p>
<p>Literacy isn&#8217;t in decline. It&#8217;s mainly mathematics that is. This of course is a good example of why it is probably *not* the fault of the schools. If schools were really getting generally worse overall, we would expect a decline in both.</p>
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		<title>By: conrad</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/09/03/private-education-revolution/#comment-214138</link>
		<dc:creator>conrad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2008 08:04:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/09/03/private-education-revolution/#comment-214138</guid>
		<description>&quot;It might not be the school system’s fault that educational outcomes go south but it is the school systems’ problem&quot;

Actually, I don&#039;t see why it is the school system&#039;s problem more than anyone else&#039;s, apart from the often unfair criticism it will cop for the decline -- I would think that the main idea of the system is to do the best it can with the resources on offer. If standards go south, well, that&#039;s just the way life is if you are trying your best.

&quot;My frustration with the school system is that you have two choices (maybe)&quot;

I think this problem is more confined to poorer neighborhoods where the public schools are often of poor quality (which leaves bad or private). In my neighborhood, for example, the public schools are all quite good (people actually move to the neighborhood to send their kids to one of the schools, which makes the school even better, since you get the type of parent that makes schools good), so it isn&#039;t a problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It might not be the school system’s fault that educational outcomes go south but it is the school systems’ problem&#8221;</p>
<p>Actually, I don&#8217;t see why it is the school system&#8217;s problem more than anyone else&#8217;s, apart from the often unfair criticism it will cop for the decline &#8212; I would think that the main idea of the system is to do the best it can with the resources on offer. If standards go south, well, that&#8217;s just the way life is if you are trying your best.</p>
<p>&#8220;My frustration with the school system is that you have two choices (maybe)&#8221;</p>
<p>I think this problem is more confined to poorer neighborhoods where the public schools are often of poor quality (which leaves bad or private). In my neighborhood, for example, the public schools are all quite good (people actually move to the neighborhood to send their kids to one of the schools, which makes the school even better, since you get the type of parent that makes schools good), so it isn&#8217;t a problem.</p>
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		<title>By: Adrien</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/09/03/private-education-revolution/#comment-214137</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2008 06:39:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/09/03/private-education-revolution/#comment-214137</guid>
		<description>Conrad -

&lt;blockquote&gt;Apart from hyperbole, the system gets good outcomes, and the areas educational outcomes are declining in are probably not because of the school system.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Now what are the reasons for declining literacy? I&#039;d speculate it has something to do with teevee.
.
It might not be the school system&#039;s fault that educational outcomes go south but it is the school systems&#039; problem. My frustration with the school system is that you have two choices (maybe): St. Poshnuts Schools for breeding male arseholes and teaching girls to put up with it and marry it, or Bogan Heights State High school. In either case you&#039;re treated like a number. There&#039;s little variation in methods, environment, subject matters.
.
There&#039;s little consideration of the students as individuals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Conrad -</p>
<blockquote><p>Apart from hyperbole, the system gets good outcomes, and the areas educational outcomes are declining in are probably not because of the school system.</p></blockquote>
<p>Now what are the reasons for declining literacy? I&#8217;d speculate it has something to do with teevee.<br />
.<br />
It might not be the school system&#8217;s fault that educational outcomes go south but it is the school systems&#8217; problem. My frustration with the school system is that you have two choices (maybe): St. Poshnuts Schools for breeding male arseholes and teaching girls to put up with it and marry it, or Bogan Heights State High school. In either case you&#8217;re treated like a number. There&#8217;s little variation in methods, environment, subject matters.<br />
.<br />
There&#8217;s little consideration of the students as individuals.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris (a different one)</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/09/03/private-education-revolution/#comment-214136</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris (a different one)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2008 01:09:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/09/03/private-education-revolution/#comment-214136</guid>
		<description>adrian - I think you summarise well the attitude of anti private school advocates who want to make it as difficult as possible for parents to not send their children to a public school. They believe parents who decide to send their children to private schools must be deluded, deceived and lacking the ability to make rational decisions and doing it for status reasons. Only those who decide to send their children to public schools can see the real truth, only they have the best interests of their children in mind.

Maggie - if you&#039;re suggesting that there is a lot of factors outside of the school which affect how much and how well students learn then I&#039;d totally agree! It not coincidence that you find people at uni who come from schools where they are only a handful of students from their school to get in, and discover that also happened to their siblings who went to the same school.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>adrian &#8211; I think you summarise well the attitude of anti private school advocates who want to make it as difficult as possible for parents to not send their children to a public school. They believe parents who decide to send their children to private schools must be deluded, deceived and lacking the ability to make rational decisions and doing it for status reasons. Only those who decide to send their children to public schools can see the real truth, only they have the best interests of their children in mind.</p>
<p>Maggie &#8211; if you&#8217;re suggesting that there is a lot of factors outside of the school which affect how much and how well students learn then I&#8217;d totally agree! It not coincidence that you find people at uni who come from schools where they are only a handful of students from their school to get in, and discover that also happened to their siblings who went to the same school.</p>
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		<title>By: adrian</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/09/03/private-education-revolution/#comment-214135</link>
		<dc:creator>adrian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 23:57:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/09/03/private-education-revolution/#comment-214135</guid>
		<description>Great ideas, Maggie.
Having met many of the parents of children of private schools, there is certainly an element of lack of confidence, and also the idea that the whole package these schools present will somehow shield their children from the realities of the outside world. In the end it&#039;s actually got very little to do with education and everything to do with marketing, status and perceived security.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great ideas, Maggie.<br />
Having met many of the parents of children of private schools, there is certainly an element of lack of confidence, and also the idea that the whole package these schools present will somehow shield their children from the realities of the outside world. In the end it&#8217;s actually got very little to do with education and everything to do with marketing, status and perceived security.</p>
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		<title>By: hendo</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/09/03/private-education-revolution/#comment-214134</link>
		<dc:creator>hendo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 23:44:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/09/03/private-education-revolution/#comment-214134</guid>
		<description>Anyone who&#039;d like a clear explanation of the inequitable funding system that this government plans to keep on with (I&#039;m pretty disappointed), read The Stupid Country. Can&#039;t remember who said it, but I do tend to agree that we don&#039;t really have &#039;private&#039; schools in this country, after reading how the funding works in this book.

Love the idea of assessing numbers of SUVs in the car park, hours spent watching the Simpsons, etc. I think that would provide a much more accurate picture of results in schools! Basically it&#039;s extremely unfair to underfund public schools, then judge &#039;em on their results and call it &#039;choice&#039; when people scared of all the &#039;bad public schools&#039; fork out for private. They&#039;re not usually bad, many public schools are quite excellent (yes yes, I went to one - great teachers, crappy infrastructure).

No need to bleat about Catholic schools getting no money... even all Catholic schools aren&#039;t created equal. Within the system there are certain schools who get more than their fair share of the funding, grants etc, and others who miss out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anyone who&#8217;d like a clear explanation of the inequitable funding system that this government plans to keep on with (I&#8217;m pretty disappointed), read The Stupid Country. Can&#8217;t remember who said it, but I do tend to agree that we don&#8217;t really have &#8216;private&#8217; schools in this country, after reading how the funding works in this book.</p>
<p>Love the idea of assessing numbers of SUVs in the car park, hours spent watching the Simpsons, etc. I think that would provide a much more accurate picture of results in schools! Basically it&#8217;s extremely unfair to underfund public schools, then judge &#8216;em on their results and call it &#8216;choice&#8217; when people scared of all the &#8216;bad public schools&#8217; fork out for private. They&#8217;re not usually bad, many public schools are quite excellent (yes yes, I went to one &#8211; great teachers, crappy infrastructure).</p>
<p>No need to bleat about Catholic schools getting no money&#8230; even all Catholic schools aren&#8217;t created equal. Within the system there are certain schools who get more than their fair share of the funding, grants etc, and others who miss out.</p>
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		<title>By: Maggie</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/09/03/private-education-revolution/#comment-214133</link>
		<dc:creator>Maggie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 23:21:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/09/03/private-education-revolution/#comment-214133</guid>
		<description>I will be satisfied with a report card system on schools when they also include
1. Report on how many SUV&#039;s parked in the school carpark
2.How many children came to school with no identifiable food groups in their lunchbox or any lunch at all.
3. Parents report how many hours of conversation and reading were managed per week in the home.
4. Waste disposal report on how many empty alchohol bottles and cigarette packets were disposed by each household
5. Report on swipe ID card access to poker machines, TAB and Keno outlets on each parent in the school
6. Monitored list of how much reality TV, soapies and repeats of the Simpsons were watched in each household
7.Report card on how many graduates ended up in jail in the previous year.
At that point I might be able to make an assessment of the true results of education in that school.
Whilst I despise social climbing parents I also have to feel a bit sorry for them as they have so little confidence in themselves and thier offspring and they are so terrified of the world finding out that they think throwing money around will fix it.  I find the ALP disgraceful for continuing to promote the fear and loathing of public schools when most of them are the product of the very same - How will Nambour High come out in the report card? Does that mean we should immediately suspect the judgement of anyone who is a product of its education?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will be satisfied with a report card system on schools when they also include<br />
1. Report on how many SUV&#8217;s parked in the school carpark<br />
2.How many children came to school with no identifiable food groups in their lunchbox or any lunch at all.<br />
3. Parents report how many hours of conversation and reading were managed per week in the home.<br />
4. Waste disposal report on how many empty alchohol bottles and cigarette packets were disposed by each household<br />
5. Report on swipe ID card access to poker machines, TAB and Keno outlets on each parent in the school<br />
6. Monitored list of how much reality TV, soapies and repeats of the Simpsons were watched in each household<br />
7.Report card on how many graduates ended up in jail in the previous year.<br />
At that point I might be able to make an assessment of the true results of education in that school.<br />
Whilst I despise social climbing parents I also have to feel a bit sorry for them as they have so little confidence in themselves and thier offspring and they are so terrified of the world finding out that they think throwing money around will fix it.  I find the ALP disgraceful for continuing to promote the fear and loathing of public schools when most of them are the product of the very same &#8211; How will Nambour High come out in the report card? Does that mean we should immediately suspect the judgement of anyone who is a product of its education?</p>
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		<title>By: conrad</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/09/03/private-education-revolution/#comment-214132</link>
		<dc:creator>conrad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 22:33:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/09/03/private-education-revolution/#comment-214132</guid>
		<description>Adrien: &quot;Conrad’s argument is that if the public system ain’t broke don’t fix it.&quot;. p.s., in case you&#039;ve forgotten, please re-read what you said in post 13, where you summarized the education system and wondered why you pay for it, and I answered why (whether you happen to like paying for it or not). I personally agree with you that there are essentially no &quot;private&quot; schools in Australia.

Here&#039;s the answer to your second question of why we shouldn&#039;t change it substantially: Apart from hyperbole, the system gets good outcomes, and the areas educational outcomes are declining in are probably not because of the school system. The fact that people think the school system doesn&#039;t get good outcomes is because they don&#039;t seem to be aware that constructing an education system is hard and some students will inevitably do poorly no matter what. The important question is what the distribution is, in terms of outcomes in key areas (i.e., science, literacy, and mathematics), and to what extent the school system is responsible for that. Given that Australians are not high up the &quot;work hard to get a good education spectrum&quot;, it means the school system is currently working well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adrien: &#8220;Conrad’s argument is that if the public system ain’t broke don’t fix it.&#8221;. p.s., in case you&#8217;ve forgotten, please re-read what you said in post 13, where you summarized the education system and wondered why you pay for it, and I answered why (whether you happen to like paying for it or not). I personally agree with you that there are essentially no &#8220;private&#8221; schools in Australia.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s the answer to your second question of why we shouldn&#8217;t change it substantially: Apart from hyperbole, the system gets good outcomes, and the areas educational outcomes are declining in are probably not because of the school system. The fact that people think the school system doesn&#8217;t get good outcomes is because they don&#8217;t seem to be aware that constructing an education system is hard and some students will inevitably do poorly no matter what. The important question is what the distribution is, in terms of outcomes in key areas (i.e., science, literacy, and mathematics), and to what extent the school system is responsible for that. Given that Australians are not high up the &#8220;work hard to get a good education spectrum&#8221;, it means the school system is currently working well.</p>
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		<title>By: Kim</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/09/03/private-education-revolution/#comment-214131</link>
		<dc:creator>Kim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 11:29:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/09/03/private-education-revolution/#comment-214131</guid>
		<description>BBB, it&#039;s considered bad form to start an argument with your own pseudonym! ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BBB, it&#8217;s considered bad form to start an argument with your own pseudonym! <img src='http://larvatusprodeo.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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