Although aspects of his critique are tentatively sketched by his own admission, Jay Rosen has hit more nails than he’s missed with his analysis of the significance of the Sarah Palin veep selection by the McCain campaign. Rosen’s article is rightly getting a lot of attention. It’s “personalities, not issues” as McCain’s campaign manager Rick Davis said, and the dark divisive arts of Karl Rove are being revived for the umpteenth time, and to date, are apparently working. Though in an somewhat problematic article in Salon, problematic because of the gender stereotypes it re-enacts while purportedly criticising them, Gary Kamiya provides some hope for thinking the Democrats might turn things around. But the controversy over Palin’s claims to have opposed the infamous “bridge to nowhere” illustrates the double bind the GOP have the Democrats in.
At least the turf this issue – the purported opposition to earmarks and pork that Palin is supposed to share with McCain – is being fought over is a public policy issue rather than all the personalised stuff which just puts the Democrats and the media where the GOP want them. But Obama’s reluctance to use the words “lies” and “liars” shows he knows the score. He’s being criticised for that by liberal bloggers, who are cheering on the media “fact checking” exercise.
But all this truthiness is also at great risk of playing into the GOP’s hands – because it reinforces the equation of the media and blogosphere with the Democrats Rosen identified as the tactical positioning the Republicans want – and which George W. Bush reinforced with his claims about “the angry left” in his RNC video link. The culture wars schtick works – because the America of Wal-Marts and small town “values” has more electoral power in the swing states that count than the wonky redoubts of the blue staters. And a lot of those voters – who don’t source their news from the internet but from cable tv – and get their analysis from others of like mind in their own circles rather than bloggers, commentators and wonks – are seeing what McCain wants them to see – a feisty outsider being beaten up by the Beltway elite. Hence McCain’s polling gains, among other demographics, with white women.
Intelligent commentators realise all this. But what no one has seemed to be able to sketch out – in an electoral landscape where the swing states are rustbelt white Reagan Democrat central – is a compelling political and media strategy to rebut and counter it. Crying “truth” and calling time on lies just isn’t enough in a postmodern political world. Anyone remember SwiftBoating? What’s certain is that McCain’s mob have worked out how to game not just the media but also the liberal blogosphere.
Elsewhere: An interesting perspective on all this from sociologist and blogger Andrew Perrin at Scatterplot.
Reminds me of old war story. Battle of Rigel IV. First use of negaspheres which as you know react completely opposite to normal matter. Negasphere heading for your Mauler, throw out repulsor beam but only sucks negasphere in faster. Have to think counter initiative, use tractor beam to repel.
Boskone high command got nosebleed working this out. Many battlefleet commanders ended up in Lethal Chamber from going “Pull! No! Push! No! Pull! Oh *untranslatable* my *untranslatable*!”
Not me. I had novabrainstorm. Don’t fight direct battle against superior tech, instead fix blame on superior officers, go to ground and infiltrate/swarm/subvert on ground.
As Boskone is doing now on Tellus. We in ur call centres takin ur calls. All your credit card belong to us.
And big shout out to 4537 1106 4481 1208 – 887, expiry date 07/10. The Homedics Bubble Spa Bath Mat With Bonus Massaging brush is proving major boon for overworked tentacles.
He didn’t say ‘alien’ left, he said ‘angry’ left.
It’s also interesting that you throw up the old Karl Rove chestnut, given that the left bloggers are throwing out this kind of rubbish, amongst much more. Unsourced rumours keep making there way to dKos and DU regularly, and it turns out Obama’s Chief Campaign Advisor runs one of the leading Astroturfing PR companies, yet you people never criticise him, his methods or those websites.
It’s much more effective if you aren’t a hypocrite when you criticise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBtbG5xjFBY
Sounds like the gloves are coming off, but if the redneck ignorati can’t or won’t see the truth behind ads like that then truly “ghaaad” save America.
Good post Mark.
Camille @ 4, a genuinely piss weak attempt to point-score off the back of your own lack of reading comprehension.
[Moderator note: that post by "Camille" has since been deleted for breaching our comments policy - tigtog]
Y’all know I hate it when I come onto a thread and read a comment that refers to a previous comment that has been deleted. FFS y’all should high light it in pink and say nasty things about its transgressions but let us see it. Otherwise delete subsequent comments that refer to it so we really never ever know.
I don’t want to derail the thread with discussing my moderation decision, Pappinbarra Fox. I will consider your advice.
PF – bearing in mind it was probably Greenfield, I wouldn’t worry too much.
I think this guy summed it up.
But hey, it’s still two months until election day. Anything could happen yet.
Stephen Lloyd, thanks for the correction to my recollection about what Bush said. I’ll fix the post.
As to the accusation of hypocrisy, I don’t find myself compelled to cover every jot and tittle of what occurs in the US campaign in a way similar to how I might write about an Australian federal or Queensland election. I’m not following it full time, but I write about what aspects of it happen to interest me. In this instance, because I think there’s something important about both contemporary politics and media strategy and the blogosphere, I’m focusing on that.
Note that I didn’t assert as a fact that Karl Rove has a direct hand in the McCain campaign (though I wouldn’t be remotely surprised if he does), but that Rovean arts are being revived. It helps to read what is actually written, not what you think is being written.
Whether Obama’s campaign manager has methods that are questionable I don’t know. I’m quite prepared to believe that he might, and I’m not particularly excited about Obama as a candidate – in part because of his politics and in part because I don’t think he’s that strong a candidate. But I simply don’t care all that much about his campaign manager’s putative sins. This is a left of centre blog, as openly stated, and not some news product that’s meant to be “balanced”. That does mean that I certainly want to be accountable for claims of fact, but it doesn’t mean that I feel under any obligation to criticise Obama’s campaign equally, or whatever you think I should be doing. I write about what interests me, and don’t attempt to make the silly claim that a blog is akin to a “paper of record” or whatever.
You might like to read the scatterplot post for a closer approximation of what I think the role of the blogosphere should be.
As I see it, the Yank Lefty Blogosphere functions as a giant Petri dish for the Democratic party. Various innuendos, smears and allegations are introduced, tested, checked, double checked and examined to see if they’re useful. “Bridge to Nowhere” seems to be a goer, so Obama’s already run ads on on theme. But the “Palin a bigot? ZOMGWTF!!!!1″ meme stinks, so only the truly gullible has really been enthused.
It allows a lot of fact-checking to occur, but also allows Obama to distance himself from the process. And if someone is presumptuous to ask Obama to condemn the sites, he can laugh in their face.
It’s much more effective if you aren’t a hypocrite when you criticise.
Get over your suspiciously conspicuous outrage, Stephen. LP is not part of the Yank blogosphere, and I’ve already seen a lot of Obama criticism here. Possibly because folk think his “centrism” is a bit of a sham.
Mark, I’m not sure if you meant this as a criticism of the MSM, but I think blogs, forums etc can be just as bad at delivering one side of the story. In some ways it can be even worse because people can voluntarily segregate themselves on the internet such that although they have a lot of interactions they only really see the views that they agree with in the first place and in places where contrarian views are quickly muffled. So they end up wandering around believing all “thinking people” think just like them.
It’s pre-civil war…& Obama is playing Abraham Lincoln.
Not the neatest analogy, nasking, because Lincoln’s election was the precipitating cause for the civil war.
Chris, it’s just an observation about where swing voters get political information from. I’ll have to think a little more about the issue you raise, but I’ve got to dash now.
But quickly, insofar as it has critical force, it’s meant to be directed as much against the US blogosphere.
McCain was popular in match-ups with Obama and Clinton long before Palin appeared on the scene. He has a strong personal appeal. Plain has inspired base voters but they are mostly in safe Republican states. There is some evidence Palin has helped with white women with children, but this appeal doesn’t reflect cultural politics (which obsesses the left which has too many would-be Judith Bretts). The Democrats advantage is on politics rather than personality but they haven’t campaigned enough on this.See my article in ABC Comment tomorrow.
I think you’re onto something, Mark. Apart from attributing this post to Kim (by mistake, which I’ll now fix), my take is here. McCain does have one very particular advantage with respect to the sexism issue, which I’ve also flagged.
Rovean tactics are aimed at providing permission to poor, white voters in swing states to transform their distaste for liberal “elites” into votes for Republicans.
In 2004 Ohio and Florida were textbook examples of the success of Roveanism. (Along with some cynical manipulation of voter entitlements and balloting systems). If Ohio had swung Dem, Kerry would be president today.
Much of that distaste is engendered by the suspicion, sometimes valid, that poor whites are the target of the contempt of mouthpieces of liberal opinion.
The Rovean trap is sprung whenever liberal mouthpieces attempt to deny that the left is contemptuous of poor whites.
Liberal rhetoric, in order to be effective, must find a tone other than overweaning patronising of poor whites or denunciation of their alleged status as stupid patsies of Republican manipulation.
It’s easier to make this observation than it is to suggest effective alternatives.
Such is the dark genius of Roveanism.
Katz, that’s about the size of it. I feel sorry for Obama – he must want to clone himself and then beat up the worst of the liberal idiots across the country.
But on the other hand George W. Bush and the Republicans have socialised Freddie and Fannie, a political coup and economic revolution that was beyond the imagination of the most fervent tax’n’spend liberal.
How much does trailer trash enjoy underwriting the mortgages of folks who actually live in houses that never possessed wheels and axles?
Katz –
“Liberal rhetoric, in order to be effective, must find a tone other than overweaning patronising of poor whites or denunciation of their alleged status as stupid patsies of Republican manipulation.
It’s easier to make this observation than it is to suggest effective alternatives.”
One alternative is stop using an “overweaning patronsing tone”. Why do the Liberal Left find that hard?
One other thing I find odd in the coverage including in this Rosen article is this Palin came out of nowhere, she wasn’t vetted properly meme. Palin was touted as a VP on conservative blogs for months and months. Likewise so called “troopergate” was an on-going “scandal” in Alaska for months prior, yet some on the Left ( not necessarily on this site) talk as though this “scandal” was unearthed late last week. I think if the Left want to neuter Palin they have to first wake up to the fact that they effectively made her. If all those extraordinary “Palin is pretending to be mother of her daughter’s child” rumours weren’t run so hard and the immediate vitriol directed at her by MSM because of her beliefs on abortion gun control and evangelical church membership she’d be the standard non-event VP selection. Now she’s a hero standing up to those from the Angry Left and MSM which has a fairly poor reputation with the average American already. Until the Left in America recognises this they’ll keep making this mistake. I think Obama has worked it out but so many of his supporters haven’t. That’s the price he pays for being Daily Kos’s candidate.
Likewise he’s been inadverently let down by his supporters again by this lipstick on a pig line. Absolutely he did not mean to compare Palin to a pig but obviously a fair number of his supporters did. Not his fault, not his intention, but if you’ve got the Daily Kos and DU mob in your audience that’s what happens and it doesn’t look good to be seen as their pick.
So, McCain is running an effective campaign, getting his message to the voters he wants and therefore heis GAMING the media. Jesus on a stick, give it a break FFS.
Obiwan has a problem with reaching out to “the America of Wal-Marts and small town “values”” because he doesn’t relate to them. He thinks they “cling to their guns and religion” and they know it. They know he looks down on them. Why on earth would you vote for a stuck up, self-rightous, pretentious git who thinks like that and assumes he can say it in “polite” company. That’s why he picked Bidetfor VP – thought it would some good old country boy empathy. And McCain raised him by going all in with a VP pick who, as Kingsley correctly points out above, had been bandied around for some months. (I’m in Perth, WA, and i had seen her name thrown around, so she wasn’t a blind pick) Now the Obama media campaign (everyone except Fox) continues to dig ddeeper and deeper into the hole (lipstick on a pig).
I really thought the Defeatocrats were going to win this easily, but they are doing as a bad a job as Carpenter.
“One alternative is stop using an “overweaning patronsing tone”. Why do the Liberal Left find that hard?”
Well, you seem to find it rather difficult. Not part of the ‘Liberal Left’ are you?
Katz’s summation of the problems facing the Democrats is superficially plausible, but does rather miss the point. The ‘poor whites’ in swing states neither know or are concerned with ‘liberal opinion’, since their exposure to such a beast would be minimal to say the least. If the Republicans are manipulating the MMM etc to create this impression, that can hardly be laid at the feet of ‘liberal opinion.’
The problems that the Democtrats face has everything to do with the sources of power in the United States, and little to do with liberal opinions or patronising tones.
One alternative is stop using an “overweaning patronsing tone”. Why do the Liberal Left find that hard?
Isn’t the Liberal Left a contradiction?
“One alternative is stop using an “overweaning patronsing tone”. Why do the Liberal Left find that hard?”
Mmmm… iron-y…
Seriously.
You have heard the lipstick, pig and fish jokes coming.
Who, and I mean who, advises Obama?
You have heard the lipstick, pig and fish jokes coming.
No. Do they all walk into a bar together? And what’s the punchline?
Hmmm, an argument that uses a hypothetical as if it were evidence.
If only I could construct a riposte.
“I think if the Left want to neuter Palin they have to first wake up to the fact that they effectively made her.”
That’s actually very perceptive and very true, they presented her an increased platform to campaign on. Obambi is behaving like a deer in Palins’s headlights ever since and she actually hasn’t had to say much if anything policy wise.
@ Down and Out
That would be the jokes Obama told today.
The ones about pigs with lipstick on and fish in newspaper still being fish.
They didn’t even have to walk in a bar.
Who. Who…who writes for him?
I have to apologise, Another Kim. I hadn’t heard of it until two minutes ago. I thought it was some meme occurring at DU or Daily Kos. This is what you must be referring to.
Oh Yes – it sounds bad… but as he’s already used the meme before (and against Hillary Clinton), the worst thing he could do is apologise.
Another own goal by a liberal writer:
http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2008/09/10/palin_feminism/index.html
Raving about how “fuckable” Palin is and talking about “incredible brain rape”.
ZOMG!!!
Actually, Down and Out, it was McCain who’d used the jibe against Clinton. However, I don’t necessarily think he wasn’t conscious of the double entendre Obama claims to be innocent of. At best, as AK says, it’s really a dumb thing to say in the current climate.
Oh lordy.
Steve Shaviro nailed this sort of stuff last week:
As they say, read the whole thing.
It’s pretty bad, hey?
But almost any excerpt produces the same effect.
If you missed Late Night Live’s replay of the Daily Show’s exposure of Karl Rove’s hypocrisy about Palin’s experience then try Comedy Central or my blog.
Is Salon liberal? I think it is crap. And I do not approve.
The author of that piece claims to be writing as a feminist, Down and Out.
Why o why do people on the left participate in this circus pyschodrama? Focus on good realistic policy and on communicating that message. Consider the fact that the Democrats have lost ground on national security since 2006 (http://www.thirdway.org/press/release/57) is this a problem magically created by Karl Rove? Wouldn’t it be better if the left discussed this and other problem areas rather than obsessing about their opponents’ evil genius? It’s left version of the right’s politics of victimhood.
The Democrats need to push for impeachment proceeding ASAP & bring up as much evidence against Bush & co. & link McCain. Nancy Pelosi should stand down. Feinstein & others need to be outed. Obama needs to announce his team as well.
He needs to demonstrate real change & justice is coming. I stand by my comment above Mark.
N’
The Dems need to start kicking arse. No more of this “oh John McCain is such a war hero…but…” (he went on 23 bombing raids & gutlessly killed heaps of Vietnamese families & tons of his own soldiers…he’s lucky the Vietnamese didn’t ram a poll up his butt) or “Palin is adorable & intelligent but…”…what a load of BS.
Most men sitting back in their chairs havin’ a beer think this is sycophantic horse manure. They want a FIGHT.
The Dems should’ve ended the war, impeached Bush & Cheney & jailed the criminals…even those in their own party who were/are complicit. They didn’t. They are seen as gutless & ineffectual. Piss weak.
The Anti-War Progressives like myself & plenty of Libertarians (many of whom I respect) have been fighting the good fight for years. But the rest of the wimpy so called Left has been too busy deleting posts (”ohhh, don’t want to offend your sensibilities”…the RIGHT Corporate Fascists feed on this) & listening to the whinings of special interest groups. The FOCUS shoulda been on the war & the economy. And the crimes committed.
But no…the wise top Dems & many supporters overseas decided to focus on women’s rights (I told ya it was a negative…that’s one reason I went after Clinton’s group…& her vote for the War…she needs to be an INDIVIDUAL) and not outing the mongrels & deceivers in their ranks (some Israel supporters…& plain old profiteers in the DLC)…& used celebrities including talk show hosts who are money schills & sound about as authentic as a shonky car salesman or cosmetics lady…
The Right are now able to feed BS to the Independents & Libertarians because of the limp approach by the Dems…AGAIN.
Obama MUST move now…use Webb & McCaskill & Kaine & the Chicago pollies & the Montana dude & Kucinich & all the others who sound like they have a spine & at least an ounce of integrity to go full bore on promoting a NEW PARTY.
Surely some Republicans out there are ashamed of the war crimes committed, the lies told, the money stolen, the con over housing, loans, debt…the deliberate crashing of the economy? Surely some Republicans have some integrity & guts left.
Surely you won’t use racism or unease about Obama to throw Lincoln’s values down the drain to support another Bush-like war-monger?
What the hell did Lincoln & all those fight…& die for…if Obama is thrown down the drain?…for a bunch of religious wackos (fancy believing in imaginary characters & ‘end days’…& these guys are in charge of nukes…Gaia preserve me…we’ll be drooling like cavemen frightened by sounds in the back of the cave soon) & they’re a bunch of corporate schills…look up their lobbyist connections.
Take the THUNDER back. Stop acting like pussies. This is WAR. Stuff the extreme women’s groups…as tho they’re gonna vote for Palin anyway…they’re too busy justifying abortions & working out how many weeks they have as CHOICE to abort…to vote for a rigid anti-abortionist.
Prosecute the War Criminals Obama. Be REAL CHANGE.
N’
Isolating real fighting bloggers like Gandhi was the dumbest thing lefty blogs coulda done. He speaks to truth. The people need it.
N’
You’ve got a point there, nasking, as usual.
Don’t you ever stop contributing, caps ‘n all.
nasking -
Do you know what impeachment is? Actually, do you know what war crimes are? That little rant of yours is off the chart. No wonder a minority give lefty bloggers such a fruit case reputation. I think you should have considered reading Mark’s post before commenting.
To summarise Mark’s post:
Obama has been snookered by McCain.
Now we are all watching keenly to see how/if he will get out of it.
Nanuestalker, what do you think impeachment is??
I don’t know what America currently recognise as ‘war crimes’ but internationally (including Australia), how about:
Perfidious and pre-emptive justifications for declaring war.
Settlement of occupied territory
Torture and inhumane treatment
Unlawful deportation, confinement or transfer
Pillage
The favourable McCain polls of recent just a touch rigged.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/09/poll-madness-mccain-takes_n_125158.html
Emory University political scientist Alan Abramowitz is highly skeptical of the new Gallup, USA Today and CBS polls. About the latter, which showed a statistically insignificant two point lead for McCain, Abramowitz said: “One reason for the dramatic difference between the two recent CBS polls is that the two samples differed fairly dramatically in terms of partisan composition. The first sample was 35.2% Democratic, 26.2 percent Republicans, and 38.6 percent independent. The second sample was 34.9% Democratic, 31.1% Republican, and 34.0% independent. That’s a change from a 9 point Democratic advantage to a 3.8 point Democratic advantage. That alone would probably explain about half of the difference in candidate preferences between the two [CBS] polls.”
Yep, the left’s just got to be smarter. Frankly, if Team Obama has been taken by surprise by the emergence of Rove playbook move 101 – then they don’t deserve to win.
It ain’t that clever! Palin’s a good move, sure, but its actually just turning Obama’s schtick around on him. Not some stroke of evil genius. That allows Obama to play to real deal. Why vote for 2nd rate “change” with Team Bush cronies? And what will Palin and her values do for your mortgage? And don’t forget the old guy, whatsisnane, the one actually running for Pres.
Remember, Rudd thought all this shit out ahead. He was ready for them everytime, totally disarmed every nasty little Howard move as soon as it came out. Howard never looked like winning. He wasn’t that clever after all. But is Obama as prepped?
I reckon Obama needs to choose some smart Latino Xena-like warrior woman for the Homeland Security position. Her and Palin can “mud fight”. Take that Rove et al.
Anyone remember me putting up the “Barracuda” song by Heart a while back on Road to Surfdom? Check out the rest of the music…the diversity…& the ROCK ON element. I kept hintin’ but obviously noone bar the Right & a few clued in strong Lefties were listening.
http://www.roadtosurfdom.com/2007/08/03/friday-meltdown-the-book-club/
Some Lefties just never get that plenty of guys wanna ROCK & drink & get into checkin’ out sexy women. Some gals like it too. Ya put them in a cage & they’re are there for the political pickings.
Also, Laborites & Dems need to start building raceways that can be used by bikies & car enthusiasts that are fed up to the back teeth w/ hearing about global warming & how bad gas/petrol is.
N’
Oh yea, thanx Adrian.
BTW, I luv women in those gypsy outfits too. Like the Heart gals wear. I reckon Palin made up the Barracuda stuff so they could use the song. Needs deep checking out.
N’
Yes – Denis Kucinich as the new face of the Obama campaign!
Well, I can dream, can’t I?
Anyway, someone has finally hit on the real issue of this campaign.
Yeah. Because it’s all about teh hawt chix.
Latina, btw, dude.
Welcome to the patriarchy.
“Welcome to the patriarchy.”
That’s coming from you…dudess?…:)
Latina?…you must be kidding…seriously. Tell that to the white boys shiftin’ to Palin.
Be more effective than Nancy Pelosi…snore. Nancy represents everything that isn’t swallowed by the majority of males. Full of BS. Indecisive. Lacking confidence. Hindering impeachment. No risk taking. Rove et al must love her.
Imo, Sarah Palin is beginning to sound like a broken record. Boring. And why guys would be attracted to Mrs. “no sex before marriage” is beyond me. Four years of Mrs. Preacher cum Governor would be freakin’ boring. As bad as listening to radical feminists.
N’
Where did I mention Nancy Pelosi in this thread, nasking? But, dude, let me tell you that she used to represent me as a voter in San Francisco, and before you go off on some thought bubble about an impeachment that was never going to happen and condemn her for some putative cowardice, you might consider how she’s standing up to the Catholic Church and her own Archbishop on abortion rights.
/oh sorry, women’s issue?
I’m taking issue with your assumption that the way to counter Sarah Palin is with some HAWT WOMAN…
So sorry that radical feminists bore you.
We’ll just have to give up on fighting for gender equality now because you find it… tedious.
Wake up to yourself, dude.
Was it my mention of the patriarchy that pushed your buttons? Perchance?
Err, no I’m not.
Ever actually been to America, nasking? Or talked to any Hispanic American women?
Mark says:
It is Baloney to suggest that Rove was behind the selection of Palin. Quite the opposite, Rove in fact opposed Palin. Sydney Blumenthal fills in the details:
Marks auxillary hypothesis that the REP’s went for Palin to wedge the DEMs over the white women vote is also fictional. Although it is certainly true that Palin was selected for her attractive personality rather than compelling policy.
Attractive to the REP base, at least. ALthough apparently non-REP white women find her attractive, probably because they envy her fertility.
THE REPs are making a comeback by appealing to cultural archetypes, the Warrior King and Fertility Goddess.
Decline of the Wets, who would have thunk it?
OK Jack, it’s baloney cause Blumenthal had it on third-hand (at least) information that Rove opposed Palin.
“One element of the Palin nomination is McCain establishing himself apart from the Bush/Rove political operation”
Of course McCain was always going to distance his campaign from Rove/Bush and vice versa. So a tad convenient that was a line distilled through the McCain campaign ranks. Not to mention every recent Rove interview in which he positions himself as outside, objective observer.
(Mark already pointed out @ 11 that wasn’t what he wrote anyway)
Steve Schmidt has consistently plotted the strategic details of all his campaigns weeks and months in advance. Is it overly surprising that several of the campaign memes introduced and developed throughout July culminated in Palin’s tailor-made RNC speech? Or, is it more believable Schmidt was completely flummoxed by a last minute decision by McCain and involuntarily forced to play tactics? All signs point to strategy, not tactics.
“Why Palin? McCain v. Rove” – lol, what a scoop.
Also, Kingsley @ 22
“One other thing I find odd in the coverage including in this Rosen article is this Palin came out of nowhere, she wasn’t vetted properly meme.”
You’re misreading Rosen here (he agrees with you).
BTW, the McCain campaign ads (Paris/Britney etc) are all produced by Fred Davis, who produced the ads for Palin’s 2006 gubernatorial campaign in Alaska, as well as 2004 Bush, and 2006 Schwarzenegger, working with Schmidt – so she’s not exactly a stranger to the team.
Whoa…how courageous Nancy is Kim…taking on the Catholic church for the right to kill a fetus. Fireworks please. As for IMPEACHMENT. Most woeful effort I’ve ever seen. Crims writing books, doing talk shows & escaping to prepare for their next role.
I’ve been to America twice. Not recently tho. When I said “you must be kidding?” I was referring to your focus on such a pedantic thing. Much bigger issues to deal with.
“I’m taking issue with your assumption that the way to counter Sarah Palin is with some HAWT WOMAN…”
Sometimes getting people to imagine something can be better than the reality…it can spark common-sense in their brain…& distract the Opposition. Method in the madness Kim.
“So sorry that radical feminists bore you.”
Most do. Plenty I’ve come across are knee-jerk finger-pointers w/ a chip or twelve on their shoulders. And bullies.
“We’ll just have to give up on fighting for gender equality now because you find it tedious”
How about fighting for the right of individuals & families to live in Iraq w/out American corporate SOBs & their COW mates using fabricated evidence & manufactured terrorist acts to invade their country & blow their people to smithereens…& in turn use American dollars & private contractors to partially construct a vicious sectarian war? I’m all for women getting equal pay for equal work & having the opportunity to access the highest echelons of parliament & so on. But I’m buggered if I’m going to listen to the whining of women who want more time to kill the babies in their womb when they should be more concerned about stopping the spread of a war that is going to see the death of millions…& already has led to over a million unnecessary casualties.
Palin is way too strict on the abortion issue…and is a hypocrite about her “sanctity of life” views. Hunting down caribou & moose when she has access to alternatives is just plain loopy & mean-spirited. Those caribou have enuff hassle migrating across the land to have their babies, potentially felled by predators, starvation & weather, without some dumbarse who wants to prove she fits in to Alaska & has manly traits popping them off as tho she were trying to win the biggest stuffed doll at the carnival. And she doesn’t seem to have a problem promoting the American killing machine…what an example she is for all kids…acting like some whack job out of ‘Red Dawn’…shooting at imaginary enemies. What a great way to promote peace & diplomacy.
Seems to me we’d be better off having wars by computer…no real casualties…remember that on some Star Trek episode? Then we can take the likes of Palin…and ensure they get some therapy. Believing in imaginary characters & creationism & acting out “get the bad guy” scenarios is not something that gives me confidence in that high-level individual. Particularly worrying when you should take into account that person might be THE DECIDER on the use of nukes oneday.
I liked Matt Damon’s assessment of Palin & the possibility of her being President. Check his views out on Huffington Post.
“Wake up to yourself, dude.”
Been AWAKE for a good long time Kim…best more Americans WAKE UP.
“Was it my mention of the patriarchy that pushed your buttons? Perchance?”
Funny you should mention that…had a dream related to it…quite vivid. Later.
N’
Righteo, nasking.
The concerns of 50% of the American population and of women of colour are trivial compared to whatever you – a white Australian male – deems to be important.
Don’t let me stop you from digging that hole.
“The concerns of 50% of the American population and of women of colour are trivial compared to whatever you – a white Australian male – deems to be important.”
So, 50% of the American population, including all women of colour (I take it you didn’t mean to imply that “women of colour” are a separate group in America, distinct from the rest of the American population) want more time to decide whether or not they are going to kill their growing baby? I’d luv to see that poll?
The views of every INDIVIDUAL is important. So is the preservation of each INDIVIDUAL life. It’s about RESPECT.
N’
Right, and you’re showing so much RESPECT to women by trivialising our concerns.
“Right, and you’re showing so much RESPECT to women by trivialising our concerns.”
Your concerns are Human concerns. Many men have as much interest in the preservation of life, healthcare issues, funding of education & for children w/ special needs etc. as women. Women don’t OWN these issues. Many women know that. My wife holds the same views on abortion as I do…in fact she helped me see that I had become slack on the issue due to unrelenting propaganda at Uni. I see now that we live in a CULTURE OF KILLING. It’s callous & wrong. That’s why I support the likes of Dennis Kucinich.
Look at Palin for instance. It’s her hubby & daughter that seem to be looking after little Trig whilst she goes around promoting herself & McCain. Her ambitions seem to come first. So special education funding is probably as important to her husband as it is to Palin (in fact, it seems she knocked some initiatives back).
Now, if this were a totalitarian society where women were being forced into marriage, forced to obey, kept out of politics and such, then I’d be listening more. But I see women across this country hitting the top levels of politics, corporations, media…& many having babies to get government money…&/or making decent money from prostitution, stripping, playing the HOT babe on TV shows, in casinoes, at car shows etc. Making their way thru life as INDIVIDUALS…not screaming for laws that enable them to take down guys out of envy in the public service etc. I’ve seen so many HYPOCRITES who purport to be rad fems & “equal opportunists” in my time. Women who think they can play up the “sexy” angle…fart on about lesbian affairs…show their mates pics of nude guys, laughing hysterically…but anyone who dares cross them gets the “sexist!”…sexual harrassment garlic thrown at them. It’s BS.
Sure, there are plenty of ars*hole guys out there…always will be…but there are plenty of ars*hole women too. I saw more girls pick on each other & get into vicious, mean-spirited scraps when I was teaching…& witnessed more bullying from female teachers than I did male. Because Palin plays it both ways…hard, survivalist, sexy, wilderness woman…but caring PTA (P&C here) Mother w/ loving husband & worried about the loss of values in society due to family breakdown…she appeals to those guys who yearn for the warm, embrace of MOM again w/out being picked on & having to listen to the seemingly selfish whinings of women who pick on them…perceived as taking their jobs.
By referring to me as a “White Australian Male” who doesn’t give a sh*t about the issues many women do…& men…you feed the Right-Wing maw Kim. It’s not surprising the Republicans win so many elections. The Rad Fems, if you’re one, play into the hands of the Right & their family values agenda over & over again.
N’
I’m not in the slightest bit interested in discussing this sort of thing with you, nasking. I’m disappointed at the tone of misogyny that pervades your recent comments. So the Republicans winning elections is my fault? Or that of feminists? What planet are you on?
Don’t feed the troll.
“tone of misogyny”
Since when did you become the speaker & definer for all women Kim? And judge & jury?
As for the “troll” comment…I’ve commented on these blogs in Australia for 4 years mate. Staunchly Anti-war & fairly independent. Dismissing an independent view as being that of a “troll” whose aim is to distract is not on. I’m addressing the issues relating to the Palin phenomena…& have not demonstrated a tone of misogyny whatsoever. That’s a CHEAP & LOW comment Kim. It seems you just can’t handle a different perspective w/out throwing such darts. C’est la vite. I’ll take the darts in the forehead & wear them proudly. And still say what needs to be said.
And I find it hypocritical that you condemn someone on another thread for saying “grow up”…but don’t apply the same values to yerself for telling me to “wake up to yourself”. Moderating is getting real random.
Freedom of speech I say. No more living in CAGES created by self-serving political lobby groups that run from Right to Left to looney town.
N’
I call shenanigans, nasking. Commentors on blogs regularly make such statements of opinion without being accused of representing themselves as “speakers & definers”. You have chosen to make such an accusation of Kim here solely because she’s called you out on perceived sexism.
Why does the Democrat Party hate moose?
Also – Barack Obama: wrong on cosmetics, wrong on agriculture, wrong for your family.
11 Mark <a href=”http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/09/10/mccain-gaming-the-media-and-the-blogosphere/#comment-505176Sep 10th, 2008 at 10:00 am
There is no reason to believe that the choice of Palin as VP was anything other than an inspired guess based on McCain’s gut instinct. Its entirely within character for him to make impulsive choices like this.
The REPs are not playing wedge politics with Palin. This pick was about consolidating their own base, not splitting their opponents base.
Rove does use personality to trump policy. They use this creatively to mobilise their own base and destructively to demoralise their opponents base.
The classic example of destructive personality politics was Swift-boating Kerry. The classic example of creative personality politics is the fertility goddess Sarah Palin.
But the REPs are hardly alone in playing personality politics. The DEMs have played destructive personality politics by smearing Palin as a red-neck racist.
And the DEMs have built a giant cult of personality about Obama. He appears to have contrived himself into an amalgam of all the white-friendly African-American personalities from Harry Belafonte, Sydney Poitier through to Tiger Woods.
“Rovean arts” are largely a myth believed by everyone including the REPs. Rove’s political skills are vastly over-rated. (He signed off on the Iraq adventure and didnt that work out well for REP political fortunes?). Nor does he practice wedge politics like the true master Lee Atwater.
Typical wedges use the REP’s culture war advantage to defuse the DEMs class war advantage. Rove tried a half-hearted wedge on the gay marriage issue. But he has bent over backwards to avoid playing race cards or even religious sectarianism.
Palin is not a true wedge candidate. I doubt whether Palin is splitting the swinging white female constituency. More likely she is mobilising the REPs dormant wuite female base. “Obama’s campaign manager, David Plouffe, acknowledged she had energised the Republican base.”
The only wedge that Rove has deployed has been against his own side. He has futiley courted the Hispanic vote which has driven a wedge between the REP base’s capitalist economic elite and Caucasian ethnic mass. Frum elaborates:
Rove has consipicuously avoided playing the race card against Obama. He has largely given a free pass to Obama’s shady past as a race-hustling (”community organizer” Ha Ha Ha!), mobbed up (Tony Rezko) Chicago political machine operator. One look at Obama’s base (90% of the African-American community) tells me everything I need to know about his “favour bank”.
In reality Obama is a Chicago politician who know that, in the words of Norman Mailer, “politics is property”.
That’s rubbish tigtog. Kim uses the word “ours” in the following statement:
Right, and you’re showing so much RESPECT to women by trivialising our concerns.
The most important factors in predicting electoral success in the US are past prosperity of the polity, present personality of the politicians and future policies of the parties.
The current fuss with Palin personality is a one-month wonder. The DEMs have been 10x more effective at mobilising their base than the REPs.
Also, the economy stupid continues to head south. This is always the most accurate predictor of electoral success.
FTR I will repeat my prediction made in May 08. Obama will win the 2008 election comfortably. But I do concede that I underestimated the importance of personality. So Obama will possibly not win by a landslide 3%+.
Wait one month.
Jack Strocchi, I agree completely with your post.
(universe implodes in 3… 2…)
nasking, the irony appears to have escaped you that your prolific comments are all about “defining” what’s important and questioning others’ right to put forward their own priorities. I hardly think you should be surprised if people take exception to long rants about what you don’t like about feminists, or claims that women should refocus their priorities to better reflect yours.
I’d point out to you that this blog discourages both excessively frequent comments and comments which have the effect of turning a thread into a debate about one commenter’s opinion, as well as overly long comments. It seems to me that you’re treading a very thin line in this regard, and I’d ask everyone to return to the topic.
That’s cool Mark. Here’s my last post for this thread:
Kim at 54 said:
“Welcome to the patriarchy.”
Now my dream from last night…wrote down as much as I could remember:
All night the words “Welcome to the patriarchy” echoed thru my mind…until it became “Welcome to the Thunderdome”…
I found myself on a boat heading up river…kinda like Cap’n Willard on the Mekong River. Similar to the sequence where the Playmates are dropped off at night to entertain the troops…I find myself going ashore towards this platform ablaze w/ neon-like lights…there’s the thump thump thump of drums & a screeching guitar…& I notice on the platform are two women wrestling in a ring. One is like a Hispanic Xena (Latina) wearing a blue outfit w/ the decal of a donkey loaded up w/ baggage…the other is Sarah Palin…her Wonder Woman costume has an elephant rearing up stamped on it. The two are oil-slicked & their muscles ripple, bodies lean & fit. Teeth are bared.
I think “Man, I could clean the pipes over this”. But then my eyes shift to the rest of the platform goins-on. Turns out GW Bush, Karl Rove & a few other Washington insiders are sitting in leather chairs watching a bunch of kids fighting in a pit…the girls are dressed in pink, the boys in blue…except one boy also wears pink & one girl blue. The kids are throwing dolls & toy guns at each other & screaming fit to burst an artery. Behind the pollies is a screen. I recognise the film being shown…it’s Passolini’s Salò. I look back at Bush & co. & they have reptile tongues flicking out of their mouths as they point at the screaming, fighting kids in front of them.
Disgusted, I avert my gaze…check out the wrestlers again…but this time I notice Condi Rice flicking a whip, all done up in S&M gear…”Let’s get this show on the road” she yells. John McCain stands next to the ropes at full attention, towel drapped over one shoulder, water bottle in the Right hand & pipes out “That’s my girl Sarah…you GO girl!”…Rupert Murdoch is sitting in a canvas chair, legs crossed snapping photos…other journos are taking notes. “More, more conflict!” croaks out Rupert.
And then I hear chanting…as the rock music abruptly ceases.
“COUNTRY COUNTRY COUNTRY”…it’s coming from a group of people who remind me of the alien infected kids in ‘Village of the Damned’, except all grown up. And in the midst of them is Sarah Palin’s family, arms extended, unheard…but pleeding…”come home” are the only words I can discern.
I think, “sh*t, I should be getting off on these gorgeous women warriors”…I feel slightly frustrated, slightly appalled, partly curious…and then a chill goes up my spine. I turn and look towards the bend in the river, in the direction I was supposed to, at least I think I was, head in. That’s right…I’m on a journey.
Thick fog is rolling towards us and within is a swarm of sick greenish flickering lights…& as the chant behind me diminishes it is replaced by a moaning emanating from the flickering lights. Something tells me these are the dead Iraqi children…trapped in agony & despair…lost & abandoned. The moans merge into somethin’ akin to a Banshee-like scream…the accompanying sound burst knocks me off my feet. The soil around me is thick w/ a black substance.
As I try to scramble to my feet in the slippery stuff I notice a skiff blown by winds that have now shifted in the direction of the fog. But the fog does not move. It now remains static…haunting…eerily still. Like a wall.
And heading towards that wall is Obama. Dressed like Lincoln…the beard suits him…the gravitas & earnestness is obvious by his visage. He sits at the front of the skiff and looks at me as I cry out:
“Wait!…you can’t fight those who run this GAME on your own”.
He smiles a knowing smile. And I hear the words in my head:
“I intend to bring LIGHT to the heart of darkness”. I feel a tear run down my face…a tear that represents my respect for his courage. His boat slips into the fog…silently.
It’s silent everywhere.
Then I hear a scream that seems to come from the inner depths of the fog.
“Help me!!!…help us find the TRUTH!” I recognise that voice. Something instinctively tells me it’s Chandra Levy.
“Eyes wide shut” I murmur to myself. I’m nervous…but suddenly determined again. I hit my little boat, rev up the engine…thanking the stars some gas is still around…& head towards the fog…& just before I hit that dark, floating, oozing wall I turn my head around & look back towards the platform.
It’s gone. Everything’s vanished…as tho just a distraction…a mirage…a SHOW.
The wall grabs me…I awake.
N’
The horror, the horror.
I’d give the latest skirmish to Kim.
Nasking, Kym was pointing to caring for those who are OUTside the in-group and explaining what the underlying rationale behind cracker fetus worship, eg hostage-taking, in our era, is about,as set against real-world realities.
Pavlov’s Cat’s allusion to how so little has changed in the Western attitude in a century
or even since the “Apocalypse Now” update thirty years ago, is very sadly, very accurate.
Heh. I give that the Award for Best One-Line Response to an Incoherent Rant (that I’ve seen so far this year).
Leinad, I’ve got some bad news for you. Unfortunately, when the Large Hadron Collider was activated yesterday, it created, as many feared, a singularity, and the entire universe has been sucked into it and through into another dimension.
Here in the ‘Mirror Universe’, black is white, Captain Kirk is evil, and Jack Strocchi is right about everything.
The horror, the horror, indeed.
Give it up, you sound like a group of school kids supporting each other as the in-clique. I expected no less on this blog. You obviously have not read my comments carefully.
“The horror, the horror” has to be one of the most flippant, thoughtless, cliche responses i’ve read. Some here just can’t think outside the box. You’ve been conned & brain-washed from woe to go & refuse to see it. Rad Feminism might as well join up w/ Evangelism because it’s doing the same job of keeping the society caged. People afraid to speak out. Think for themselves as individuals.
I’ve commented heaps on Palin, McCain, religion & other issues…but you just discard all that because you can’t get over defending Kim of the Collective…what a loyal bunch you are.
And as my wife said:
“It wasn’t you who put up the picture of Xena”. Double standards. And mockery. Pathetic.
sorry paul walter…you’ve lost me today…i have no idea what you’re talking about.
War crimes are committed & criminals escape & War-monger governments win time & time again because of the type of narrow thinking displayed on this thread by some today. I say some.
I hope some really think over my comments. And we’ll agree to disagree Mark.
Still discussion & difference of opinion will bring such clique responses.
That’s what happens when you’re looking ahead instead of behind. Time will tell.
N’
nasking #81,
So your essay at #77 was not in fact your last post to this thread? Quelle surprise.
Do us all a favour and get your own blog for the essays. Yes, you do comment on many other topics, and at least half the time I don’t read your comments because they are too long. If you want people to read what you say instead of just hitting page-down until they reach the next comment some time spent editing for brevity would be worthwhile.
That’s probably because the crack Radfem Brainwashing Team actually sticks to the tried and proven techniques from go to whoa. Do you do mirror-writing as well?
You were the one who mentioned Xena in the first place. To then accuse Kim of having double standards because she posted an image in an attempt to lighten the tone of the thread (and yes, a spirit of mockery as well), as has been done countless times before on this blog – now that’s a double standard.
Steve at the Pub, back in the forties, reckoned McCain had Obama “Snookered”.
Is Nasking’s off the cuff remark therefore quite so flippant?
Could the Democrats counter- usurp the right’s demographic through the employing an “ultra”?
On a different tack, could Biden indeed be preparing to make way for Hillary Clinton (a noble sacrifice). She would easily assume a very powerful “parental” imago, specifically neutralising the pert “daughter” Palin as “outspoken”, against the backdrop of a now repaired and united “family” as represented by an even more powerful three- ticket of Obama, Clinton and Biden; a sort of legitimating benevolent sainted god-figure beyond and above
Focus could then shift back to Obama and McCain. Obama’s precise expertise would be reintroduction/reframing of issues away from those of resentment, which would devastate the clumsy McCain.
Obama was more lucky or shrewd than he’s given credit for, with his debunking “lipstick on pigs comment”, which allowed electors to see thru, rather than just seeing, the baffling and debating-closing image of Palin?
She is a only a recycled form of the old and obnoxious “PC” gambit, after all.
The Democrats must not give way to despair- they (relatively)DO have a message and that should spur them to counter-attack rather than meekly capitulate.
But well done the Republicans, for their clever tactics.
“McCain’s mob have worked out how to game not just the media but also the liberal blogosphere”.
Well, you’d hope so. It isn’t very difficult!
tigtog, your comments could be considered as condescending…but I’m no diplomat myself at times. But you’ve lost an ally.
As for this:
“To then accuse Kim of having double standards because she posted an image in an attempt to lighten the tone”
I rest my case…:)
Have fun…hope you all live up to your standards.
And yes, “woe to go” was deliberate. Aren’t you into time streams?
CHANGE COMING
N’
nasking, to clarify: I often enjoy your shorter comments. When you fill the screen with para after para, not so much. You lose coherence (just like nearly everybody else who does the same).
So if you abuse us we’re supposed to take it, and if I critique the length of your comments you storm off? Wevs.
Your rested case still doesn’t acknowledge that you were the one who brought up Xena in the first place.
Geez, nasking. Talk about losing an ally…
Anyway this isn’t a friggin’ war, except when we get an attack of greenslime.
tigtog, the answer to your query lays in comments 62 & 51.
Interestingly, I thought you’d get where I was coming from. I guess the abortion issue creates massive divides. As someone who generally detests religious institutions & the way their leaders manipulate individuals I can relate to your outrage over their attempts to control your bodies. But as someone who has been involved w/ abortion in a couple of cases, and felt enormous pain related to it, I cannot condone the killing of growing babies except in the most extreme cases. There is already far too much killing. I imagine plenty of people flock to Palin for similar reasons.
Me. I find myself in a quandary. There is no party that respects my animal rights & abortion views. Nor, generally, my distrust of religious organisations. No way will I return to the Conservatives that my Mayor Grandfather worked so hard for. I detest the use of “killing machines” by the Right…& their profiteering ways (none too happy w/ the Dems who voted for war too…altho some did put up ammendments & were terrified of being seen as unpatriotic after 9/11. Saddam was a baddy…but the selling & execution of the war was one of the greatest cons in history)…& the Left’s abortion stance pains me greatly.
I certainly could’ve been more diplomatic. I should not have generalised when referring to “women’s rights/issues” at one point in the thread. But I foresee a disaster for Obama if the Dems don’t change tack. And then WE all lose. Big time.
I commented on Huffington Post in 2005 that I thought Obama should run for the Presidency. Earlier on other blogs. I’d studied him…& certain media outlets for many years. And I recognised that Hillary’s camp would be a problem. I think she’s a talented lady…but the baggage…& the related issues we’ve touched on above ensured I couldn’t support her. In two instances I thought we might be able to sneak her thru…& ensure Obama was VP…but sadly both were shattered by circumstances partially created by her camp’s doing. It’s sad.
Obama can HEAL. Provide HOPE & vision & serious reforms on healthcare & education…but too many can’t see beyond their TRAUMA…their BELIEF SYSTEMS…their FEAR & XENOPHOBIA. They’ve moved back into the security of caves & churches & gender-related camps…but they don’t see the bigger picture. By the time they AWAKEN the opportunity to breathe FRESH AIR again will have been lost.
As happens every decade. No LIGHT. No enlightenment. Just technology…& fear…& more lethal ways of killing…and more murdering of innocents…& less empathy…& more cynicism & distrust. And the expansion of the CORPORATE ARISTOCRACY.
Sorry to be such a pain. But I feel that time is running out.
N’
“Geez, nasking. Talk about losing an ally…”
Please read comment 77 carefully Adrian. There is so much the blogs have missed over the years. Important connections. That led to extreme violence against some bloggers who were putting the jigsaw together. Palin is not a “knee-jerk” choice.
It’s important to understand why Nixon was outed by some in his own Party…& why certain media individuals from the Kenneddy years thru to Watergate & onwards to present day must not be trusted.
California was ESSENTIAL for the Republicans…think Chandra Levy. Think the use of a pyramid-style of control & propaganda. Think of the profits made, the companies that are linked…the use of impeachment proceedings against Bill Clinton…& the forcing thru of Phil Gramm’s co-sponsored bills (He was on McCain’s team)…& the death of the Glass-Steagal Act…& the passing of a major insurance bill…& the weakening of the UK reserve bank’s regulatory processes by the Blair government early on in their rule.
Know Obama.
N’
nasking #88
No, actually that didn’t help to answer my question at all.
nasking #89
Please, enough with the hyperbole. Which bloggers have actually been subject to violence?
Really? I think Conrad would be quite surprised to hear that. I was referring to the nightmare you described (complete with Heart of Darkness allusion) in the previous comment, which I thought had been written in a semi-comic spirit. It’s hard to tell.
From that point in the thread, you keep telling people to read your comments carefully. But if you would pay people here the courtesy of taking the trouble to write them carefully, namely in a clear, non-allegorical, non-symbolist, non-absurdist, non-stream-of-consciousness statement of what you’re trying to say, written in standard English prose WITH NO CAPS, people would probably read them carefully as a matter of course. Writing long raves that look like the backs of album covers by minor bands in 1969 and then expecting everyone to spend precious time deciphering them is just unrealistic.
In a north-east Asian tangent, a lady candidate to be Japanese PM (and hence first female PM of of all cherry and cheery blossoms), has said* she would not like to be like Sarah Palin, but would like to resemble Margaret Thatcher.
*Radio National Breakfast with Fran, 12th Sept 08.
Discuss.
Avoid national stereotypes where possible.
200 words max.
As I discussed here, Palin killed the Bridge to Nowhere. As anyone who’s paying attention knows, Obama and Biden voted for it, twice, including when Senator Coburn tried to kill it be spending the money for it on Katrina relief, instead.
The reason why Obama’s trying to avoid calling McCain a “liar” is because McCain is telling the truth.
Gawd, we’re going to have some long and boring threads here if every two-bit Republican-leaning US blogger is going to come in and make a contribution.
Helen, let’s jazz things up a little without getting too acrimonious. Palin leaves open option of war with Russia. I think Obama has got his big break.
Que? Do you just want the thread available to two-bit Obama-leaning Aussies??
Since you brought it up, before you run off with that meme of warmonger like you guys did with Palin’s husband being the father of her daughters child who … well I am sure you would all like to forget all that, you might want to read this
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MzI4OGRmYjcwMDliNDUyMjM0NzkyNDExNWJhZDY1ZmQ=
Of if you don’t want to go there, you can go to Obama’s own web site
http://obama.senate.gov/press/080303-obama_statement_128/
If Obama gets his way and Georgia joins NATO and Russia invades anyway, then war is certainly a possiblity, no matter who is president. To deny this would be to lie. NATO is an One for All and All for One alliance.
Gee, Helen, you were right.
“NATO enlargement is not directed against Russia. Russia has an important role to play in European and global affairs and should see NATO as a partner, not as a threat. But we should oppose any efforts by the Russian government to intimidate its neighbors or control their foreign policies. Russia cannot have a veto over which countries join the alliance. Since the end of the Cold War, Republican and Democratic administrations have supported the independence and sovereignty of all the states of Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union, and we must continue to do so. President Putin recent threat to point missiles at Ukraine is simply not the way to promote the peaceful 21st century Europe we seek.” -Obama.
You tell me how this differes from Palin’s comments.
Moptop: the big difference is that Obama didn’t talk about war at all. Palin answered “perhaps”. That’s all the difference in the world.
“the big difference is that Obama didn’t talk about war at all”
Yes he did. He said that Georgia should be in NATO. If Georgia is in NATO and Russis attacks, war is a possiblity. Nobody has directly asked Obama this, but he knows what NATO is. It is a defensive alliance.
And Obama has talked about war. He has said that he would attack Pakistan to get bin Laden. Recently Bush seems to be taking his advice and making cross border incursions into Pakistan after bin Laden. So if this leads to the death or capture of that creep, then I will have to give a little credit to Obama. I still kind of think that bin Laden has been dead since Tora Bora, but I could be wrong on that.
Moptop correctly identifies the bellicose implications of Obama’s statements on Russia/NATO and Pakistan.
The question remains whether or not Obama would follow through on his bellicose talk.
Bush has announced very recently that he intends to send US ground forces into Pakistan without prior notice, especially to the government of Pakistan.
Pakistan hasn’t ruled out military resistance to any such act of war.
It’s going to be tough for Obama to out-tough Bush and presumably McCain.
And it’s probably too much to hope that the marginal US voter recognises just how stupid is Bush’s threat.
Obama had better hope that this election is decided mostly by domestic issues.
No, he didn’t, Moptop. What he actually said was:
Ukraine and Georgia have also been developing their ties with NATO. Their leaders have declared their readiness to advance a NATO Membership Action Plan, MAP, to prepare for the rights and obligations of membership. They are working to consolidate democratic reforms and to undertake new responsibilities in their relationship with the Alliance. I welcome the desire and actions of these countries to seek closer ties with NATO and hope that NATO responds favorably to their request, consistent with its criteria for membership. Whether Ukraine and Georgia ultimately join NATO will be a decision for the members of the alliance and the citizens of those countries, after a period of open and democratic debate. But they should receive our help and encouragement as they continue to develop ties to Atlantic and European institutions.
No mention – no hinting of war. You may see it as implying war – I see a lot of wriggle room. Obama could say “Bombing South Ossetia? In violation of your obligations. No NATO membership for you, Georgia!”
As for Ukraine:
Personally, I don’t think Ukraine is going to join NATO – not because of Putin, but because a lot of its citizens don’t want it. Putin definitely knows it. Obama probably knows this. Palin probably doesn’t.
Shorter me: talking about war is different from not talking about war.
BTW: attacking Pakistan to get bin Laden is stupid. But not as stupid as getting in a war with Russia.
Shorter Moptop: I’ll decide what Obama is talking about and the manner in which he talks about it.
Obama on his hopes for Georgia’s and Ukraine’s NATO membership:
Moptop’s paraphrase of Obama’s attitude to Georgian and Ukraine membership of NATO:
Moptop’s paraphrase is an accurate reflection.
And Moptop is correct about the obligations imposed by membership of NATO. An attack on one member is an attack on all members. Therefore, if Georgia and Ukraine become members and then are attacked, other members of NATO are required to come to their defence.
[Perhaps someone who knows could explain what the situation is if a NATO country decides to attack, as did Georgia in relation to South Ossetia. Does being declared an aggressor vitiate the treat obligations of other NATO members?]
Remember the Falklands War, Katz. NATO membership didn’t help the UK. And as I explained above, I don’t don’t agree with your paraphrase. Obama may want Georgia in NATO, but is he willing to go to war for it? Someone should ask him.
Surely the NATO framework declines to define military action by a member state within its own borders as ‘aggression’? Who’d sign up to that one? The nation state is the relevant unit.
BBB
“Therefore, if Georgia and Ukraine become members and then are attacked, other members of NATO are required to come to their defence.”
Katz should know that NATO members are not required to necessarily respond by force to attacks on other member countries. Each member country is free to choose how to respond and is not required to respond with military force.
If Katz wants me to provide links I am only too happy to oblige.
Therefore to state that by advocating Georgia and (possibly) the Ukraine join NATO, Obama is ‘talking about war’ is showing a lack of understanding of both the principles and operations of NATO.
What a phoney debate: Palin talks about war, Obama doesn’t. Pfft! From the link that Down and Out provided:
You may disagree with all that, but to say Palin is ‘talking about war’ is dodging the real reason why war was mentioned: she is giving a fairly direct and candid answer to a very direct question. Anyone who says an attack on a NATO member doesn’t raise the real possibility of war with the aggressor is full of rubbish (remember this is what Moptop said – it raises war as a possibility). Similarly, anyone who says they want Georgia in NATO but its admission would not increase the probability of war with Russia is also full of rubbish. Obama doesn’t seem to have been given the opportunity to make a fool of himself on that point, and in any case it is doubtful he would have taken it. In the end, this whole back and forth is about the differences between the questions asked.
BBB
“Katz’s summation of the problems facing the Democrats is superficially plausible, but does rather miss the point. The ‘poor whites’ in swing states neither know or are concerned with ‘liberal opinion’, since their exposure to such a beast would be minimal to say the least.”
Adrian, did you honestly not realize how patronizing this was when you wrote it? How you were fulfilling the very theory you were purporting to disprove?
Believe it or not, even poor whites in swing states have televisions, radios, the Internet, newspapers, movie theaters and the like. They even have the electricity to operate them (newspapers excepted, which don’t generally require electricity). If you think there is any section of the country that doesn’t get an earful of liberal opinion on a regular basis then you don’t get out enough. Swing states are no exception.
Your statement was actually so ridiculous and factless, that I really think you must have said it tongue-in-cheek. If that’s the case, it’s a good start but it needs some polishing.
You misinterpret me, kcom, but I can understand why and the fault is mine.
How could I forget?
And how could I forget that NATO applies only to “Europe” and to “North America”. The last time I looked the Falklands were neither in “Europe” nor in “North America”. Correct me if I’m wrong.
However, the question arises as to whether Georgia or Ukraine are in “Europe”. This tricky question will no doubt furrow the brows of the current members of NATO, at the appropriate time.
Well the treaty has a deeming provision in relation to Europe, North America and island territory above the Tropic of Cancer. I would be inclined to construe that by way of the maxim inclusio unius est exclusio alterius, but there is always room for debate.
BBB
Actually no, there isn’t room for debate.
Article 5: “The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.” The limiting term “Europe or North America” precedes the deeming provision re: other territory that I have already mentioned.
Very helpful, aren’t I?
BBB
I think Nasking´s got the gig for the liner notes on Moby´s next album.
So is Georgia part of Europe or Asia?
It depends on where you think the boundary of Europe lies in respect to the Caucasus: Greater Caucasus? Asia. Lesser Caucasus? Europe. Kura River? Both.
If in doubt, consult Eurovision. I’m going to back them on this occasion, albeit with the mute on.
“Please, enough with the hyperbole. Which bloggers have actually been subject to violence?”
Pretty judgemental & assumptive comment tigtog. Michael Ruppert, Steven Vincent, Tom Feeley…all I can think of now…quite a number in Iraq.
Pavlov’s Cat, your sarcasm after the justification demonstrates the lie.
Attack my writing style all you like. Your schoolgirl attitudes & sneering apathy reveal the true nature of your cause. Selfish hedonism. At the expense of babies. And animals. And elections. And in the long run, many lives.
I attempted to create a bridge. You blew it up. The type of piling on today shows the nature of this blog. And to think I promoted your blog time & time again tigtog…& even you occasionally PD. I’ve heard similar complaints from other commentors. Now I fully understand their grievance.
And Mark…yer quite welcome re the donation. Common courtesy mate.
i will not post here again.
N’
Someone’s gotta pay the bill, nasking. Might as well be little Jayyeighdn.
Nasking – I’ve never come across anyone quite so attached to their writing style that they’d melodramatically burn bridges like that, just cos people offered advice and some lighthearted fun-poking. People who actually do want to hear what you’ve got to say, but have trouble with the way you say it.
You might want to have a look back at how you’ve reacted, cos you’ve never struck me as a precious, humourless git before.
nasking, my apologies, I thought I’d sent you an email. Sorry about that!
I appreciate the courtesy Mark.
FDP, the CAP thing all week was humiliating & disturbing. And the betrayal by some so called “Lefties” has saddened this Bear. The CIRCLE has been broken. In some ways I contributed to it…but owned up to that in comment 88. Instead of empathy I had my one true hobby bar gardening & film watching ripped into…my good will thrown back in my face. I need time to repair & reflect. My catharsis is on RTS. Cheers
N’
“Obama may want Georgia in NATO, but is he willing to go to war for it? Someone should ask him.”
I agree, but it will never happen. The press protects Obama from questions like these. There was a slip on CNN today where the reporter referred the the Democrats as “we.” Not that I care, as the main post notes, Republicans are quite adept at using media support for the Democrat candidate against the Democrat.
Obama has re-iterated his support for Georgia to join NATO since the Russian incursion, so he has not backed down since things got hot.
By the way. This is an incredibly civil site for a left leaning blog. Congratulations on that, I didn’t think it could be done. I think if the Democrats in the US were more civil, and spent less time demonizing the voters they need, they might do better in the elections, but please dismiss this comment as “concern trolling”, I wouldn’t want the Dems to change.
Hillary, unlike Obama, has run for statewide office in a state where these “bitter clinger” voters that Obama supporters despise make up a decisive part of the electorate. She gets elected anyway. That reason alone should have been enough for the Democrats to choose her.
O.K., I’ve got about a 90% chance of voting for McCain/Palin if I make it to the booth.
I’m educated (Masters Degree), northern, urban, female, married, mom, working.
The thing about the “She was for the Bridge To Nowhere before she was against it”, is that I don’t really think it sticks. I don’t believe that she had the political capital before the national fuss to do anything about it. When she got the capital, she did the right thing.
Also, although I know Alaska kept the money, I’m not sure what sort of infrastructure it went to repair. If it went to infrastructure that helps keep the oil and gas pumping (even roads to areas that are important to oil and gas industry) I figure I got a good deal from that money.
…also, despite my urban, educated status, my family’s from West Virginia. I get the feeling you’re not going to believe me when I tell you…but my relatives talk about stuff like this! And although most don’t have more than a high school diploma they are pretty well informed, and they’re SMART…and I really don’t appreciate you guys implying that they’re mindless, drooling, Rush Limbaugh worshiping zombies.
Yes, perhaps all those references to drooling were a bit out of line.
“…mindless…Rush Limbaugh worshipping zombies”.
Do they really “talk about this sort of stuff”, or just recycle their prejudices, apparently like you, Mama73.
Give me ONE good (ie real) reason why you’s vote republican over democrat?
Do you have a moral ( also, ie, in the real sense ) bone in your body?
Moptop:
By the way. This is an incredibly civil site for a left leaning blog.
Partly because for most of us, our stake in the election is indirect. Kim has American citizenship, but most of us don’t. I have one godfather (as in baptisimal, not Mafia) in New York, and my wife has family in Maryland, but I have no direct relatives in the States.
Another thing is that a good site is like a good garden – sometimes you have to prune. Abuse isn’t tolerated here, and posts which abuse generally get deleted. A lot of the comment sites I’ve seen in the US suck. Threads consisting of talking point alternating with talking point – whether “Conservative” or “Liberal”, it doesn’t matter. The effect is of 200 homeless people along some run down street in a run down city, ranting to themselves. In contrast, the people who run the site (Mark mainly, plus Kim and others) try to get a conversation going, and generally they succeed. Mucho gracias to them.
Finally, many of us are lukewarm on Obama. We just think the other bunch is worse.
Mama73:
O.K., I’ve got about a 90% chance of voting for McCain/Palin if I make it to the booth.
Good for you. So would that 90% chance decline to 50% or less if you learn Sarah Palin had a direct hand in imposing fees to pay for rape medical exams? That would be a deal-breaker if I were American. Choose to vote for Obama, or Barr, or abstain altogether, but why would you vote for such an odious woman? This is not about elitism or condescension. This is about simple decency.
74 jack Strocchi Sep 11th, 2008 at 11:36 pm said:
It looks like the Palin bubble has burst. THe RCP average now has Obama about 1% ahead of McCain. Thats a 3% turnaround from the 2% advantage that McCain enjoyed for most of this month.
She was fun whilst she lasted. But she was just a flash in the pan.
The floor under the REP vote may have been raised by the recent spurt of growth in the US economy, which appears completely disconnected from the US fiduciary. However there are so many reasons to vote against the REPs that even this good news wont save them.
I havent been wrong about a US or AUS federal election since the end of the Cold War. Not about to start blemishing the record for this race, which Obama should win in a canter.
(How are the other psehp bloggers doing on this? Mumbles was betting on McCain. I dont fancy his chances.)
He is one cool dude. THe Cool Hand Dude, with a handful of aces.