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18 responses to “Burgers, Metaphors and the End of Kapitalism.”

  1. Ag

    Stephen Long from ABC has been talking about toxic debt. Last night on PM he invoked Monty Python by saying that the Bailout amounted to a call for people to “bring out your debt.”

  2. Bill Posters

    Gobblestop’s rant makes no sense. Doing “incredible research” into a stock is now a “vicious practice”? Ditto finding a company is overleveraged and has agreed to absurd loan terms (ie, market capitalisation clauses)?

    Surely these shorters were merely agents of capitalism, working in the market to discover price?

    Or does that only apply on the way up?

  3. Matt C

    ” I think it’s useful to distinguish between capitalisms and Kapitalism: the grand, modern, ideological project opposed by Socialists”

    Without any elaboration, this sentence makes no sense to me at all.

  4. Francis Xavier Holden

    What is “ruthless shorting” as opposed to “benign shorting’? And surely if the fundamentals are ok with a firm then all the rumours and shorting in the world couldn’t make a rational researcher /investor stop buying if the firm is undervalued. In fact if the firm is ok then an intelligent investor would go mad and go long while the shysters were going short. I reckon the ban on shorting is only another example of the government being conned into proping up those who should perhaps cop a sharp smack around the chops – like Macquarie

  5. dk.au

    Matt C, would it help if I added this link to the sentence?

    Bill, maybe you’re right. I’m sure someone who knows the trading regulations better than me can comment. But my point is that these asymmetries are endemic, something less regulation can’t help.

  6. Thomas Paine

    So they went for the biggest short selling exercise of all – the country.

  7. Mark

    FXH, I’ve been trying to pay some attention to the justifications offered for shorting offered over the past few days.

    I can’t see that the argument that it should be allowed when the market is falling because it’s allowed when the market is rising is a sufficient or particularly compelling one, nor that “growth” for “funds” at all costs is a benign objective. I’m waiting for someone to justify the “provides liquidity” argument rather than just assert it.

  8. Francis Xavier Holden

    mark – perhaps one of the advantages of the current shorting ban is that we may get some research – or at least figures – that give some idea of what shorting does or doesn’t do in the market. Or at least some idea of the volume of shorting. The problem is that there are a lot of other variables whizzing around.

    I reckon Turnbull is urging a ban on shorting to save him and his mates a motza. Why we feel sorry for people gambling by going long (normal shareholding) and yet get all in a lather about people taking the other gamble – going short?

  9. Mark

    Well, yeah, FXH, but I’m interested in the liquidity justification – some dude on Lateline Business repeated that but no one appears to explain it. Personally I don’t think gambling to make dosh on the markets in this form is any more useful or to be encouraged than gambling and losing dosh. It seems to partly defeat the so-called informational function of markets.

  10. AlanJae

    As an interested non-economist type guy, my impression of ‘shorting’ is that it an action carried out by those institutions (hedgefunds etc) who identify one or more fundamental weakness in a targeted stock. If this is the case, then shorting is neither good nor bad – its just one tool of many that enables moneymaking (which, when we look at ‘the market’ in the cool light of day, is the name of the game).

    Ultimately, shorting is possible because there is insufficient market transparency and accountability for potential investors to fully background attractive investments. I’m sure shorting wouldn’t be as rife if investors and (arguably toothless) regulators were privy to much of the information as ‘those who short’ have been. If that were the case, there would be obvious disincentives for creating questionable stock items (as the level of debt housed in any given stock could be easily identified, for instance). Wouldn’t this decrease the instances of shorting?

    Further on analogies, I’ve seen the emotive term ‘predatory’ bandied around the interweb in discussions on this topic. It should be remembered that while the role of a predator in a natural ecosystem can be viewed superficially as ‘a bad thing’ (if it you who happens to be eaten), predation is largely beneficial to a prey species in the long run (it weeds out the weak and infirm, thereby improving the prey’s survival rate as a whole). It is only when too many predators feed upon a finite number of prey that predation can be a bad thing. Perhaps this is the real message we should be taking from the current market situation…

  11. FDB

    AlanJae – surely there’s at least a prima facie case for saying that activity designed to drive down the value of a stock is qualitatively different, i.e. worse for the economy, than activity targetted at building value and confidence.

  12. AlanJae

    FDB – I guess I’m saying that shorting isn’t the problem, the problem is the current financial mindset which created such an environment where short selling became so prevalent (and let’s not forget, financially rewarding). Just as you wouldn’t buy a meat pie that is all ‘lips ‘n’ assholes’, wouldn’t a greater level of transparency discourage investment in shoddily structured stocks? Wouldn’t this in turn, reduce the pool of stocks which could theoretically be the target of shorting?

    Is it possible to view short selling as a weapon? In that case, its the intent of the wielder that determines whether the weapon is good (ie. in the hands of most policeman) or bad (to shoot a moose).

  13. FDB

    Rethinking what I said too simplistically, of course activity which falsely drives up stock value and creates overconfidence is also damaging, which driving down stock that deserves to go there anyway might not be. So maybe the prima facie case doesn’t bear much scrutiny anyway.

    I like your idea of baking the financial system pie with clear pastry and thus nothing but chunks of steak and field mushrooms inside, but I can’t really see it happening.

  14. FDB

    which while

    *le sigh*

  15. AlanJae

    Either way, as my background isn’t in any stream of economics / finance, I’m sure that I’ve made a goose of myself for either oversimplifying an (overly?) intricate process or mistakenly elevating a minor fragment of the broader situation to Palin-esque levels. Bless the anonymity of the web!!

    “I like your idea of baking the financial system pie with clear pastry and thus nothing but chunks of steak and field mushrooms inside, but I can’t really see it happening.”

    Nah, me neither! We human beings are creatures of habit and self-interest. IMHO this means we are inherently underqualified in enacting significant changes of any type, especially when there’s a quid or two involved (just see climate change)…

  16. AlanJae

    Apologies for my hastily typed comments.

  17. AlanJae

    Oops.
    Was apologising for my poor grammar, not necessarily the content…

  18. Adrien

    Markets are, in very important ways, metaphors.

    Oh yeah? How? I don;t see it. Maybe you shoulda gone the simile instead; markets are like metaphors.
    .
    I still don’t see it.

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