As everyone probably knows, the Veep debate will be televised live at 11am AEST on both ABC1 and SBS (which also has live streaming online if you’re not near a tv).
Any links to liveblogging of the debate appreciated.
Context in this earlier post and Amanda’s post on Biden at Hoyden About Town.
Update [by Mark]: Liveblogging at Firedoglake, Feministing and FiveThirtyEight.com.
Just Biden my time till the debate.
squirm baby squirm!
following on from the rightards pre-emptive strike against the moderator to explain Palins loss, newsbusters have started attacking the moderators family. Bringing in the political leanings of a cousin as some sort of proof that she is biased.
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tim-graham/2008/10/02/brilliant-ifill-cousin-scours-palin-offensive-black-women
How low will they go in their effort to defend Palin?
Try “Think Progress”
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/10/02/liveblogging-vp-debate/
Also, I found SBS didn’t stream sound during the last debate. Don’t know what was up with that, but all the networks will be streaming the debate live online. Try: CNN, MSNBC, Fox (*shudder*), BBC, ABC…. everyone carries this.
Don’t know if CCTV will show it live. Would like to find out!
I’m pretty bummed out by the choice of Obama or McCain. They’re both shithouse as far as I’m concerned. Shit I hope one of the VP candidates shows something to feel good about when it comes to the potential of the next administration.
Possibilities of history repeating (that Queenslanders may care to remember):
Watch out, Joe. Sarah’s going to attack. Perhaps she might even succeed in a Nixonian “Spite the vote” kind of way.
Shaun, that gag is appalin.
Why won’t they hurry up and debate now… My drunk buzz will soon be gone in a couple of hours and then this debate won’t be any fun at all…
Palin has apparently recovered from disasters before. Her initial performances in her campagn for the governorship of Alaska were woeful, but with a bit of coaching and studying up on the issues, she flummoxed two far more experienced opponents and went on to wqin the governorship.
Much as I hate to think it, this is not necessarily going to be the Republican Party Comedy Hour most of us are hoping for. And this time she’s being coached by Kissinger.
Don’t forget it’s also being broadcast live on ABC New Radio from 11. In case you’re at work and can’t stream it, but have access to a radio…
News Radio, that should be
http://www.236.com/news/2008/10/01/debate_training_biden_learns_w_1_9211.php
Good link @4, Down and Out.
…….a McCain official said. “She was herself. She was authentic, and people related to that. … Tonight, she’ll get into a rhythm. You’re going to see her in a way that you haven’t seen her yet.”
Oh my god, she is gonna go for her true and tried ‘rhythm method’. Joe, in the red corner, is in for one hell of a battle.
Thanks, joe2. But Amanda’s link tops mine. I needed 5 minutes in the tea room after watching it.
That was absolutely hilarious, Amanda. Funniest thing ever. Thanks for the link.
If people are interested the live stream can also be picked up at the CBS website and the CNN website.
Ha! They have Anna Marie Cox doing pre-debate commentary on CNN!
I am so pissed off that the Canadian debate is on simultaneously. It should be an interesting debate, but can’t compare to Biden-Palin.
Katie Couric is live now on CBS
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/09/18/politics/2008debates/main4457570.shtml
Hahaha, “can I call you ‘Joe’?”
“i don’t think i’m going to answer that… i want to talk about my record…” You can’t just say you’re not going to answer the question!
Update [by Mark]: Liveblogging at Firedoglake, Feministing and FiveThirtyEight.com.
The commentry at abc news (from a bbc/reuters report) is a bit snarky:
“Governor Palin energised the Republican ticket when John McCain picked her as his running mate, but like many other once valuable assets in the United States, she has been rapidly depreciating in recent days”
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/03/2381300.htm
Um… gosh, she’s brilliant at completely not answering the difficult questions… She’s now sounding quite incoherent on climate change. Don’t know how she’s coming across to Joe Six-Pack mind you…
“Iran CANNOT be allowed to acquire nuclear weapons. Period.”
Hmmmm. Nice work Palin.
Running transcript here…
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/02/debate.transcript/
nuculer weapons you mean…
Palin is fantastic. All the Palin misogynists here and elsewhere have had their noses bloodied. You go girl !! Biden has also been pretty good. He’s attacked McCain.
SBS are running a very interesting live blog and online streaming at
Linked text
“All the Palin misogynists here”
*crickets*
Palin has done better than she could have in the worst nightmares of Obama’s handlers.
She’s a very quick study.
“John McCain knows what Evil is.”
… in fact, if the GOP could organise for McCain to go face-down clutching his chest, they may have a better chance in November…
Did I hear her say “Malaki and Talibani”?
Clearly. Its a shame Hillary was so polarising, as it would have been so interesting with her as VP nom against Palin.
Anyone else utterly disgusted by Sandra Bernhardts gang rape threat tirade? I’m sure vitriol like that will only sure up support for Palin.
The LA Times reports that Palin officials were griping over the choice of Gwen Ifill as moderator. A good broadsheet moderator with an interest in reality must be troubling.
Moving to foreign policy, Palin is becoming increasingly shrill.
Palin misogynists???
Palin is more anti-women than any men I know
What is the name/term for a woman who wants to opress her own kind?
And don’t say Schlafly…
Paul -
Ever wonder why the adjective ’shrill’ is never used when what is being described is a man? You should consider dropping that particular pejorative, it just sexist.
To me Biden has demonstrated real depth of understanding. Palin has demonstrated that she’s a quick study. No comparison.
Relax, cj, he may be able to spell it (unlike most concern trolls), but he obviously hasn’t got a clue what it means.
Nanuestalker above, however, has an excellent point.
…never used when what is being described is a man?
You’re wrong. On the internet, even.
No, N-stalker, am not talking about how “women” become paranoid ( not all women are paranoid after all, and not all men are objective, yes?). Am talking about how near illiterate “right wingers” become paranoid and always described as “shrill”(eg Howard over bogus “war on terrism” ).
The writer elaborates.
I would NOT like to see the finger of someone as reactive as Palin on the nuclear button. Lack of an education is indeed a terible burden, I’d agree patriarchy has much to answer over historical time as to conditioning and education of females. But that does not mean a crook unit should be in close proximity to weapons of mass destruction.
Her response to foreign policy and the “outside” is pure Hansonist, based on ignorance, fear, unreflexive culturally-inscribed conceit and a resulting shoot first ask questions later- a dangerous pathology as the moose discovered.
Yes SC, Sandra Bernhardt was totally embarassing. Much as I deplore Sarah Palin’s Pauline Hanson-like allure to the average Joe, it’s much better to stick to the point: that this Bomb Alaska is a professional blow-in. Honestly though if someone with a scanty CV like hers gets into the political system, you’d have to think that people dumb enough to vote for style rather than substance will deserve everything they get - in spades. But actually it’s kind of interesting watching what looks like the nascent internal collapse of The Most Powerful Nation On Earth, it reminds me of the fall of the Roman Empire…
Nanuestalker: “shrill” was also used to describe Bush opponents such as Paul Krugman. See also Brad de Long for “Hermetic Order Of The Shrill”. “Shrill” was a running joke for a long time.
As for the debate - I think it’s Biden’s. Two parts stood out. One was when Palin said “Her reward is in heaven, right?” about his late wife. Sounded cheap and plastic. The other is when Joe choked up about his child nearly dying. Palin babbled away and didn’t even pick up on it. They’ll leave an impression.
Crikey, now am sitting agape as she arrogantly brays the evil doctrine of exceptionalism( not essentailism, Nanu)
I mean the parallels between the fall of the Roman Empire and the fall of America are all there - dud candidates, massive internal debts, too much imperialist expansion - all we need are barbarians pounding at the gates - bring on the extras!!!
Freudian slip by Palin,
“He [McCain} is the man we need to leave…err lead…..”
I’m with Dr Cat @ #40 - I don’t know that it is particularly helpful or constructive to use such emotive language which is always just so close to the line of stereotyping someone because of her gender. It’s not that men are never called “shrill”, it’s that women are very often called “shrill”. I don’t know that Palin was - or that she was “braying”. Would McCain - who is just as much teh Evil as her from a political pov - be characterised in such terms?
Anyways, I agree with Down and Out @ 44 - I was a bit stunned Palin didn’t reach out to Biden when he got emotional about his family. I think it did him a lot of good, and I think it pointed to how rehearsed a lot of what she said was - it was pretty easy to see when she was repeating lines and when she wasn’t. Whether or not that comes across to non political junkie watchers, I’m not sure.
But this thing just wasn’t all that important.
Possibly, but the rest of us don’t.
*Goes out to back yard to dig bunker*
Btw, I, too, have learned to love the Biden.
I thought he did good!
I have to wonder how Palin could have stuffed that debate up given that expectations for her have been set so low. Run screaming from the podium at the first question? She didn’t have to address any question in any detail, she could spin free-form word salads and babble about soccer moms and cookies and freedom and by most pundits standards - as I expect we’ll see in a few minutes - that would be a pass.
Talk about the soft bigotry of low expectations…
“Hansonist”? Perhaps.
“Based on ignorance, fear, unreflexive culturally-inscribed conceit”? No
Palin ain’t no dummy. She a smart politician who recognises that her appeal is middle America. Obama’s ‘guns & religion’ comment, although somewhat accurate is what its all about. Palin’s job is to highlight Obama’s college grad. campfire singing “Kumbaya” against his at least perceived elitism. Obama might want to buy the world a coke, middle America drinks beer.
We’re in for an interesting month, likability wins elections more than anything else. I personally despair at the choice, I don’t know who’s worse McCain or Obama.
Can we have a Biden/Palin ticket?
So, what Palin told me was the she and McCain are energetic mavericks. Or maverick energy or something like that. That seemed to be her two talking points.
So, who thinks Gwen Ifill’s upcoming book had anything to do with her moderation?
Palin did okay. She didn’t make any major gaffes, and I can see why hardline Republians like her. But, overall, I think Biden won the debate and was much more intent on attacking McCain quite intensively, forcing Palin to defend him. She landed no blows on Obama So:
1 to the Democrats.(This one.)
1 draw. (last one.)
Palin won on expectation but lost on a command of the issues, but it’s never about issues, only expectation and atmospherics.
the mod was a discrace, Palin should have been brought back to answer the question, not just “on an unrelated note, im from a small town and barack hates our troops” for every friggen question
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzfQdfw6ApQ
Really, you’re going to have to back that up. Because I can’t see how anyone who’s been paying attention and isn’t already corrupted by the Ring of Power could possibly prefer the Witch King of Angmar/Grima Wormtongue ticket to the Aragorn/Gandalf one. (I really think comparisons to Saruman would be doing McCain too much credit).
Obvs the GOP play with Ifill was to beat up some nonsense about a “conflict of interest” - as demonstrated in spades by our Sharpe friend on the other thread - so that she would go soft. And to take out insurance in case (a) she didn’t, (b) Palin imploded.
Please join with me and join the Facebook group “Joe Biden … I’d TapThat.”
http://www.new.facebook.com/group.php?gid=24046697901&ref=ts
I was right — and I don’t get to say that, like, EVER about politics. Biden aced it. Palin did OK (compared tp the GIbson/Couric interviews), but that will make no difference to the voting intentions.
My wtf? moment was this:
Incoherency via sticking to your talking points.
Just curious ..was Condi Rice ever given a look in as a potential VP or was she seen as too closely aligned to the current administration?
Is the consensus here really that the last one was a draw? McCain messed up big-time with swinging voters (independents). Palin may well be strengthening the remaining Republican base’s resolve, but I have a feeling the base is shrinking somewhat. Especially when you consider a lot of states that Bush won easily in 2004 are now in play.
Guy Rundle in Crikey:
Publius at Obsidian Wings:
http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2008/10/debate-thoughts.html
The biggest surprise was that Palin got through relatively unscathed. She still had a tendency to waffle over some things when she was stuck, and trying to make a silk purse out of some things was always going to be a problem.
That said, it seemed pretty clear (albeit as someone else posted, we’re political junkies) Joe Biden was a significant class above her in knowledge, understanding and experience and in the way he answered questions very directly.
At this point, Obama must be feeling pretty relaxed about his choice of running mate.
Kim, what about something about the sinister pronouncement concerning the relatively minor issue, it seems, of exceptionalism, rather than pitiful esentialist nitpicking because I used the same language describing female right wingers response as Iwould a male reactionary?
That connection made between exceptionalism and essentialism is becoming less tenuous by the moment. One relates to gender chauvinism (eg Kim, Nanu), the other involves racist chauvinism ( American exceptionalism as arrogantly proclaimed by ignorant redneck Palin ).
And please DON’T say I ONLY call women rednecks; if some of you must continue nitpicking and trolling.
I’ve made my point, paul, you’ve made yours. Let’s move on - on topic, please.
Larison:
Well (again) what about your take on Palin’s foreign policy/ exceptionalism, then?
The issue I was trying to raise in the first place, remember?
Lets get real here, if the US public vote the republicans back into the office of President Gawd help us all,the same old crooks will carry on,McCain, Palin, Bush, Cheney where’s the difference same crooks different faces.
“Witch King of Angmar/Grima Wormtongue”…thats a bit of a harsh way to describe the Obama/Biden ticket, but I respect your right to hold that opinion or belief.
Anyway I thought we were discussing the next US President/VP not Oprah’s book club.
D’oh! Obambi is Oprah’s tearful choice, and as we know she’s spot on (”A Million Little Pieces”).
Drum:
Sub..cow…Kindasleazy IS the current admin.
paul @ 70, I’ve previously said here that Palin and McCain are both putting forward an arguably even more neocon influenced foreign policy position - more like Bush in the first term than the Condi-inflected second term (which has been a flop, but not quite so crazily dangerous a flop). Despite the new found enthusiasm for diplomacy “I met with Dr Kissinger!” - I see no reason to change my view.
If anything, I think Biden might have brought that out more. Although he certainly sounded authoritative on foreign policy, an attack line on McCain or two about what he might do may have been a good idea!
Maverick with nukes? Epic FAIL!
Still waiting, Nanuestalker.
Paul -
Leave me out of it, I hate philosophical discussions. I think they’re for people with to much time on their hands. A bit like bloggers!
Christy Hardin Smith @ Firedoglake has video of Biden’s empathy moments:
http://firedoglake.com/2008/10/02/joe-biden-experience-with-a-big-heart-is-a-winning-combo/
And Nate Silver has the wrap of the focus groups:
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/10/vice-presidential-debate-liveblog-2.html
The important thing is that it didn’t move many votes.
I agree wholeheartedly Kim.
Very much a parallel between the US and Australian elections. The Dems will prove as phony as their predecessors in the US and Blairite Labor now in, in Australia, which also baulks at ever challenging cultural paradigms.
in that sense both Palin and Biden embody different aspects of the US political response to reality. Either head in the sand nervous nellie-ism represented through Palin or the glib machine politics of Biden.
It’s just the the Repubs trigger such a reaction in me as to Cheney, and Howard and Hansonism back here. Even if we only revert to selling rather than overtly imposing imperialist capitalism; eg as already happens with Rudd, and probably Obama later on in the US, its less “noisy” for jangled nerves.
I just thank christ am “one day closer to death”, to loosely quote ‘Floyd, rather than in my teens or twenties.
sublime cowgirl wrote:
I wouldn’t have thought it had anything to do with the current administrations unpopularity. Condi is, er, slightly the wrong colour and doesn’t push enough of the “OMFG TEH RAPTURZ” buttons that Palin was specifically chosen for. The VP in this case was a real matter of shoring up the base/getting out the votes. The fact that she is shiny! is just a bit of icing on that cake.
Many folks who take a non-forensic interest in such debates ask themselves the question: “Did I see something that would make it very difficult to vote for X?”
Palin delivered a very convincing counterfeit of insight into the issues she discussed.
In the sense that sho scared off few potential voters and maybe attracted many potential voters she did well.
I suspect in the coming weeks Palin’s comments about the role of VP will be the ones most raked over:
Whoever’s running her will be running the country in six months if elected, sorta like a much smarter Bush in the Cheney position, waving off John as he flies off to shake hands with the troops in Baghdad again. Gosh, darn we need to get those fellas on the hill to pass this bill, don’t we? She’s everything they need, she’s an artist, she don’t look back.
But they ain’t going to win. Phew, just a sort of mad moment at the end of Bush days, like an addiction or disease that throws up some diabolical super strain just as it’s leaving the system.
It’s the stupid, economy.
Katz, go back and have a look at the link on the focus group reaction. While most thought Biden won the debate, the key thing is that those switching their vote were a small minority. So it’s not a case of Palin pulling in voters, it’s a case of Palin not imploding and scaring voters away.
Net result - nothing much has changed.
Nate Silver - the Sarah Palin chapter of the campaign is probably closed.
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/10/post-vp-debate-thoughts.html
Kim: was just about to post that! Nate’s been saying some fairly astute things alongside all the pretty graphs.
Pretty much the only people Palin really resonates with are core R voters and with this debate most undecideds will have realised that while she might not be a drooling imbecile there isn’t much ‘there’ there when you get past the platitudes, so hopefully 538 are right on this, I don’t think I can stand much more schmaltz…
Nick @ #76
I’m don’t know what your after? What are you waiting for?
Why do you hate the Hockey Moms, Leinad?
I played junior soccer. I know her kind. They’re sugary frosty cupcakes packed with enough cynanide to kill a bull moose.
Heh!
This election is the Dems to lose, Biden is a solid guy but immaterial as is Palin for the GOP.
Obama has demonstrated an inability to close the deal so anything could happen.
The “choke“. Check the worms (one for the men, and one for the women).
Re Rice, David’s post eighty, I’d reckon its more to do with her (past eight years) associations than gender or race.
Down and Out, very interesting.
That’s one way to cut through without a “gotcha” killer blow.
paul walter wrote:
I don’t think it would be openly discussed in those (racial) terms, but this is the republican party we’re talking about. This is the same party that insists on having questions on ballot papers about gay marriage as nice little dog whistles to remind people what’s “at stake” when they vote for “liberals” in the US sense.
Kim’s post 83 is right. It’s about damage control and holding the rump. We recall interest rate bleatings from Howard and the botched efort of Jackie Kelly’s husband and their pals in the last week of last year’s election here, re race/”terrism”.
The repubs are thus in damage control and trying to build for a counter attack later in a new decade.
Don’t forget our local example, Julie Bishop, as well as Howard’s generally appeals to self interest in our last election. Bishop and Palin are representations, relating to the under seige mortgage belt psyche. No-nonsense women who suggest to the mortgage belt that it’s folly to have truck with any of these wishy washy do-gooders,a little along the lines of Leinad’s comment; 87.
Biden and the like, like Rudd last year here, have to suggest that this is head in the sand obstinancy: that Global Warming, Peak Oil and the intractability of the Middle East and West Asia and the changing global economy demand a different approach for a different world, to the one used that most people grew up with.
That’s why Palin’s exceptionalist and pro Israel nonsenses were just that, except to US denialists under seige along the beltway.
The propaganda applies to the mortgage belt nuclear family, not just women btw. Blokes thinking of giving up their 4-wheel drive phalli will reinforce the women “out here” as much as the womens domestic fears and aspirations will bolster the men.
I found Palin’s “folksy” moments very irritating - ending sentences with “ya” instead of “you” for instance, and all that banging on about Joe Sixpack.
Daughter was very irritated with Biden’s tendency to number his talking points “One,… Two…” and referring to himself in the third person. She preferred him to Palin though. She loved the Fay Palin spoof interview.
A quick browse thru NY Times student reaction to the debate seems much more favourable to Biden.
Nanuestalker
I can’t agree. I think Joe Biden just won the election for Obama. The main thing holding Obama back was the perception that Obama is a lightweight; quick with the lip but lacking substance. Today Joe Biden provided the substance.
Absoutely Helen, laid on with a trowel and concrete mixer.
Most disgraceful moment was the cheap, “her reward’s in heaven” platitude talking about Biden’s current wife being a teacher, knowing he had a wife who’d died.
She’s a real piece of work is Sarah.
I thought that was tolerably obvious, Nanuestalker. I’m still trying to get to the heart of your contention that Obama and McCain are indistinguishable. These kinds of claims intrigue me, as they clearly fuelled the pathological apathy that delivered the 2000 election to Bush, and I’d like to understand what kind of worldview makes such a un-nuanced reading of the political landscape possible.
I was talking to a friend on the phone this afternoon and I felt like one of those clip art characters in Get Your War On!
Is ‘Maverick!!!’ some sort of spell us Muggles are not aware of?