As noted here and here in comments, there’s an extremely interesting development in Queensland state politics today – Indooroopilly MP Ronan Lee has defected from the ALP to join The Greens.
Lee has been something of a maverick during his time in Parliament, causing both Peter Beattie and Anna Bligh a few headaches, and having switched factional allegiance from one right wing faction – the Old Guard (”Labor Unity”) to the other – the AWU (”Labor Forum”). He might have expected ministerial promotion, particularly if Anna Bligh had had the determination and the support to put the broom through Cabinet that is needed – rather than just talking about “renewal” – but has had to content himself with the position of Parliamentary Secretary to the Attorney-General. Lee has been a very active local member, as his website demonstrates, and a position of some independence with regard to his party (Lee’s election paraphernalia and office signage have radically downplayed his ALP affiliation) must have assisted him in retaining a very marginal seat in traditional Western Suburbs leafy Liberal heartland he first won in 2001. Lee has also been outspoken on environmental and transport issues, and recently took a swipe at Anna Bligh for not being serious about green issues.
Lee’s defection is not necessarily unexpected, and as Dennis Atkins notes at Party Games, may not be unrelated to the difficulty of holding Indooroopilly if the LNP vote does improve in Brisbane. The Brisbane City Council Ward of Toowong – which overlaps with Lee’s seat – recorded a strong Green vote in March and as Atkins suggests, The Greens might be able to outpoll Labor and leapfrog the LNP vote – Liberals have come first on primaries in both 2004 and 2006.
While a Greens MP in the Queensland House should be a good thing for accountability and the policy debate, I have to say that my own personal view is that Lee should resign his seat and contest a by-election. I just don’t think that switching party affiliation is an ethical act in a system where most votes are party votes – Lee’s personal vote might be worth 2 or 3% but the fact remains that in Indooroopilly in 2006 40.46% of the electors supported the Labor candidate while The Greens were supported by 17.11% of the voters.
Update [by Kim]: Andrew Bartlett’s take. And Sam Clifford.
Bernard Keane in Crikey and Graham Young at Ambit Gambit weigh in.
The Qld Greens now hold about 1% of the seats in Queensland’s Legislative Assembly after winning about 8% of the statewide vote at the 2006 election. The idea that the Greens only won 17% of the vote in Indooroopilly, potentially going against the wishes of 40% of the seat’s voters ignores the fact that Greens voters in Queensland have gone without representation until now.
I’m glad that the party I belong to now has representation in Parliament. I’m glad there’s someone who will be able to stick it to the ALP over their terrible policies on transport, water, etc. where the LNP are either in lock step or don’t want to touch the issue for fear of a backlash.
I think Queensland can do much better than the ALP and the voters of Indooroopilly could do much worse than Ronan Lee.
What I would like to know is how many of Ronan Lee’s branch members will be following him over to the Greens.
Sam, is the contempt in which you apparently hold the electors of Indooroopilly something peculiar to you, or is it the attitude of Greens members generally?
Anyway, it’s a novel approach to Westminster liberal representative democracy: it’s OK to disenfranchise some people, as long as the bigger picture of My Party Getting A Seat is taken care of.
BBB
So let me get this straight, Mr Lee can keep his seat, but that seat will be on the cross benches? Like McGauran did?
I’m just having trouble accepting it as fait accompli, that Qld, the economy that is possibly more than any other in the world reliant on digging up and burning coal, ie one of the blackest economies there is, actually has a greens representative in its parliament?
Looks like it’s porcine airport time.
I take your numerical points about 40% vs 17% being hardly a close thing, but what happens if there is a tectonic shift out there in the western suburbs, and Ronan the Green gets 2nd past the post, and picks up anti-Anna Libs preferences en-masse?
Is there a book on Anna pulling the plug on Traveston? Anyone give me odds?
That logic’s a bit tortuous for me, Sam. The fact remains that Lee was elected – as a Labor member – on the existing single member system and he represents the electors of Indooroopilly and the electors of Indooroopilly alone. By all means argue for PR, but since we don’t have PR, it’s just not right to suggest Lee somehow represents any voters outside his own seat.
Well, again, danny, members are elected for a parliamentary term. A lot may change in electoral opinion during that term. There might be any number of members who are now sitting on the green benches in George Street without the support of sufficient electors to re-elect them. But that’s life, it’s how it works. The parliament’s composition reflects the decision of the electors on one day in 2006. If Lee wants to test whether sentiment has shifted, he should resign and recontest his seat.
As I said, many of us may wish for a different system, but I still believe that within the logic of the system we have, Lee has done the wrong thing. Party switching or resignation from a party while retaining a seat as a general practice is highly problematic – one only needs to refer to two words – “Mal Colston”. The fact that Lee’s defection may have positive results for the quality of debate in Queensland parliament doesn’t obviate its irresponsibility *literally – not a value judgement*. You can’t applaud a breach in the nexus between election and representation when you like the result and condemn it when you don’t. Principle has to be consistent regardless of partisan or even objectively justified views of the outcome.
BBB, I don’t hold the electors of Indooroopilly in contempt at all. Perhaps you should construct a strawman with a bit more to it. Sure, Lee was elected as a Labor MP but Indooroopilly is quite a Liberal area, overlapping a lot with the BCC ward of Toowong and the federal seat of Ryan (both held by Liberals for most of their existence). Indooroopilly electors know that Lee is not a party line ALP man and his environmental and transport policies have been on display for some time now.
I’m a big fan of proportional representation systems and have posted about them on my own blogs and in comments here. Are you suggesting that we should aim to disenfranchise no-one and move to a system of direct democracy or are you simply having a go at me for celebrating the first electoral victory that the Queensland Greens have ever had? It’s never okay to disenfranchise people, so we should aim to have an electoral system that disenfranchises as few people as possible. Proportional representation systems do such a thing.
Perhaps you don’t see a problem with Rosa Lee Long representing One Nation in parliament with less than 1% of the statewide vote while the Greens went unrepresented from 2006 until now with 8% of the statewide vote.
Queensland’s electoral system is absolutely dreadful; a de facto first past the post system with no upper house.
Sam, but as I’ve been suggesting, supporting a PR system is very different from supporting an unethical decision which takes place under the rules of the existing system. There really isn’t any way to argue that Lee should not – as a representative elected by the voters of Indooroopilly in 2006 under the single member system that existed then and exists now – should not resign his seat if he finds for whatever reason he is unable in conscience to maintain the party affiliation under which he put himself forward to those electors.
I can’t help but agree with you, Mark, despite my elation.
Sounds a bit like the debate we were having here on May 19th.
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/05/19/guest-post-by-sam-clifford-the-borgs-not-the-only-new-kid-on-the-block/#comment-468731
“Sure, Lee was elected as a Labor MP but Indooroopilly is quite a Liberal area, overlapping a lot with the BCC ward of Toowong and the federal seat of Ryan (both held by Liberals for most of their existence).”
Wait, the argument is now that Indooroopilly has an ALP MP, but even still the electorate is quite Liberal, so it’s OK for the representative to associate, post-election, with the Greens. I’m not sure what else to describe that as, other than contempt. It ignores the relevant electors to an even greater degree than I had thought, on the basis that voters in other places will feel good because the outcome is similar to an outcome that they think would result from a hypothetical voting system in which no-one participated.
Mark is absolutely right: by all means argue for the system of your choice, but try not to advocate a fraud on the citizenry along the way.
BBB
He leaves the AWU and joins the Greens!!
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What happened? Did he break his toe with all that head-kicking or something? I know he couldn’t sleep at night with all the knives in his back. He couldn’t afford to have his conscience removed?
I honestly didn’t think it would happen, steve; it looks like you were right. If Lee has been accepted by the party (which he has) then he is bound by the party’s constitution and charter.
If he’s that confident that his electorate want a Green member, he should resign and contest the resulting election as a Green.
As far as suggesting that he would somehow be constrained by “the party’s constitution and charter”, I’d just ask him how he felt about the Labor party versions of the same thing.
fucking rats…
On the other hand, he’s going to lose Indooroopilly, but he can spend some state mail allowance working on a senate position.
The problem for Ronan Lee at the next election is that the recent redistribution takes a chunk of Toowong out of the Indooroopilly electorate and hands it to the Mount Cootha electorate. Toowong tends to be where the younger voters reside.
The Indooroopilly electorate has moved more towards the Liberal Blue Ribbon areas of the Western suburbs.
Antony Green reckons that the new margin is 2.7% following the redistribution.
If he’s that confident that his electorate want a Green member, he should resign and contest the resulting election as a Green.
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Thereby costing taxpayers money? The Indooroopilly constituency will be able to express itself at the next election. There are certain ethical questions raised by this sort of behaviour certainly; do we vote for members or parties. I’m a little surprised. I remeber Indooroopilly as a safe Liberal seat back in the day. Was I mistaken? Means: Valley of the leeches.
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On the other hand, he’s going to lose Indooroopilly, but he can spend some state mail allowance working on a senate position.
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Qld got its senate back?
It isn’t an electoral triumph by the Greens, Sam, it’s the defection of a member who was elected on the basis that he represented the ALP.
As Darin says, if he thinks that becoming a Green is acceptable to his electorate, he should test this at a by election.
“Qld got its senate back?”
Nice….
I wish they would…
Update [by Kim]: Andrew Bartlett’s take.
From the Andrew Bartlett link…
“where the views of an elected Member are in conflict with the Queensland Greens policy, then the elected member may vote in accordance with their conscience.”
From Sam…
“If Lee has been accepted by the party (which he has) then he is bound by the party’s constitution and charter”
LOL
Mark –
Interesting ethical questions of course. But let’s throw this one in. What about a party that runs on a platform asserting certain intentions without any intention of keeping them? Now this is typical behaviour these days. In fact, and I’m sorry, this kind of behaviour is, in my experience, not only tolerated but lauded in the ALP in general and amongst the AWU in particular.
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To take an example at some distance from local politics let’s consider the building of the Skye Bridge. This was one of those wonderful PPPs in which we the taxpayers pay to build it and then it gets handed to a company to charge us to use it.
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The British Labour Party explicitly rejected the Conservative Party’s plans to charge tolls and the rest when Blair was running for election. They were full of shit. They not only continued to endorse this most nefarious stealing of public money for the benefit of the very dodgy Bank of America but they conspired to use police enforcement to squelch dissent and disregarded the rule of law in combating the surprisingly effective activism.
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The obligation on the part of members of the British Labour Party would be to resign from the party. People vote for a policy platform. They signal a preference for certain policy directives over others. When politicians deliberately mislead the electorate as Paul Keating repeatedly did, then their backbenchers are obliged to cross the floor. They don’t because politics attracts more than its fair share of selfish pricks.
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I don’t know the whole story but if this fellow is that most rare of creatures an active local member he’s probably reading what the electorate wants better than us. He might have done something unethical, but he might’ve done just the opposite.
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Naturally the ALP’s culture will assemble an arsenal of mud launching artillery to throw at him. They’ll call him disloyal, hell the ALP’ve called me disloyal and I’ve never joined ‘em (I’d rather stick needles in my eyes). But whatever. I for one am sick and tired of having politicians ignore the interest of their constituency in favour of their private sector pals on the basis that they’ll be able to use their agitprop machine, their skullduggery and the disheartening fact that the alternative are the same pack of arseholes to fleece us yet again.
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But naturally, soul-searching self-examination will be completely absent as usual. We’ll just have the usual self-righteous, chestbeating, fingerpointing nastiness.
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BTW Does anyone know when Tony Blair’s reveal all memoir The World Would Have Been So Much Better If I’d Been Drowned At Birth is coming out?
I’m not sure what your point is Darin? The two statements are totally consistent as far as I can see.
I know the rigid straightjacket of major party discipline in Australia – amongst the tightest of any democratic nation in the world I believe – makes it hard for some people to comprehend the right of a conscience vote, but it is commonplace in many other countries.
I can’t speak for the Greens, but the wording of their constitution looks very similar to the same provisions that were in the Democrats’ constitution for so long. I would assume that Ronan Lee’s accepting of the constitution and charter of the Green Party means he recognises the right/responsibility the constitution contains for him to vote according to his conscience – which seems far more preferable to me than MPs voting against their conscience.
However, I do share the unease some have expressed about MPs switching parties mid-term without resigning their seat. Meg Lees did this to the Democrats of course. Cheryl Kernot never gets enough credit for refusing to do the same when she quit the Democrats – at significant financial cost to herself too. In the Senate there isn’t even the justification of saving the taxpayers the cost of a by-election, plus the added fact that it is clearer that people are voting for the party, as the majority put their vote in the party’s box above the line, rather than besides the candidate’s name.
However, in the end the voters in Indooroopilly will weigh this up when they decide how to vote next election. Kris Hanna got re-elected in Mitchell in SA, despite him switching from Labor to the Greens and then from the Greens to Independent, all in the one term!
Darin, the Greens don’t have reproductive rights in their charter, it’s in the policies. There’s a difference; one’s a set of guiding principles and rules (charter, constitution) the other is a platform which may change over time.
Sam, I have to agree with BBB here. By your own logic, had Lee joined not “your party” but the LNP, you would have shrugged and barely mentioned it I suppose.
Well, I suppose my point is that if there is a general exemption from party policy on conscience grounds, then there is no real burden on the elected member to follow party policy at all.
I accept that this is the only way that things should work in practice. Nobody in an elected position should be required to vote against their conscience.
If, however, they were elected running for a party, they should either vote in line with party policy or resign. A resignation on principle would provide them with an opportunity to find out whether they enjoy the support of their constituency.
The LOL was more aimed at Sam’s statement that Greens members would be bound by their constitution and charter. If they have a conscience vote on all matters, their elected members are not bound at all.
Andrew E, the LNP don’t have an under-representation problem.
Darin, a party member who consistently votes against party policy due to conscience issues would probably find themselves disendorsed no matter which party they belonged to. Unless, that is, the local branches like what the MP is doing.
Thanks Darin – it’s probably too far off-topic to go on too much about conscience votes versus caucus solidairty. However, in short, obviously if you found yourself consistently voting against your party’s policy, you shouldn’t be in that party (and you’d be unlikely to be (re)endorsed). But it is unrealistic to suggest that everyone can agree 100% with 100% of policies, which in effect is what is demanded with the current situation where a person is expected to resign from the party (and to be totally pure, their seat) if there is one party decision they believe is fundamentally wrong.
In addition, as is outlined in Adiren’s comment, many governments ignore some of the policies their party went to the election on. What is an MP bound to support 100% of their party’s policies meant to do then.
Also, in parliament you often have to vote on issues which are not precisely covered by official party policy. One approach is to then bind every MP to support the position that the majority of their colleagues support (which wouldn’t matter in Ronan Lee’s case anyway as he is now the only Green MP), but that does risk people being bound to majority decisions that might be reached as a result of many factors other than the policy merits of the issue (e.g. factional deals, pre-selection threats, promises of promotion, keeping key donors happy, etc).
Sam, the LNP does have an under-representation problem.
Just under 38% of the primary vote at the 2006 election for 25 of the 89 seats – about 29%.
The Libs won 8 out of 89 seats – around 11% – but received 20.1% of the statewide vote.
http://www.ecq.qld.gov.au/elections/state/state2006/results/summary.html
Any single member system – particularly in optional preferential where just vote 1 becomes entrenched and a lot of seats are effectively won on first past the post – by definition under-represents the losers and over-represents the winners.
So Andrew E is quite right – if a Labor member defected to the LNP you’d have to defend it on the same grounds.
And it would be just as indefensible, I’d hasten to add.
Lee should resign his seat.
I stand corrected, Mark. Today is just not my day, is it?
Maybe not, Sam! I can understand the excitement, but I guess passion needs to be balanced with logic and reason too!
“One approach is to then bind every MP to support the position that the majority of their colleagues support (which wouldn’t matter in Ronan Lee’s case anyway as he is now the only Green MP)…”
But is he beyond the reach of the 11 faceless women and men of the Queensland Greens? Can someone get a shot of Lee waiting outside Horan Street?
BBB
As both the Die Grunen and Der Mitteleuropa ‘Gott-mit-uns’ ALP are both run on exactly the same monarchical grounds, I, for one, don’t see any controversy.
Now had this cheese-eating rat joined those gnats on the other side…well that would be disgusting, inhuman insect-like ravening…not only Judgment Day for labor rats, but also the Day of the Locusts as predicted in Revelation.
Revelation 9:3 Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Well parliament sits this week, and being the only Green in Parliament, does he even have to show up?
Mark, and coffee needs to be balanced with sleep!
Ronan was VERY lucky to avoid scrutiny, of the Shephardson kind, of some of his pre-parlimentry political activities.
He went from the Right straight to the Greens? Is there a discontinuity there, or are the Labor factions not what they used to be?
Not what they used to be!
Lee was only a member of the AWU opportunistically as it were. But at state level, there’s really not much ideological difference now (though some left and right members are obviously lefter and righter respectively than others – but not so much among the parliamentarians and apparatchiks.)
Being a Green I’ll acknowledge being biased on the question of whether members changing parties should resign their seats, but I don’t think its anything like clear cut that it should always happen. Here’s a few points in random order:
* I gather its more common in some other countries (eg Canada) than here, and doesn’t seem to attract the same demands that people stand down.
* Consideration should be given, at least in part, to whether the candidate won purely on the party vote, or whether their personal popularity was significant. Everyone says that its surprising Lee held what would be normally such a safe Liberal seat, even in the Beattie landslides. It seems clear his popularity was a factor, and I notice that during the last campaign the Libs accused him of “campaigning as a defacto independent” or words to that effect. Also note that he was behind on primaries and Green preferences pushed him over.
* If a party is elected on particular policies and then breaks those policies, should a candidate who wants to stick to them resign? Not saying this is applicable in this case, but its relevant to the general question. Arguably it is the rest of the party that should resign and recontest.
* Also, what about an MP who was being personally victimised or bullied by their own party in a manner that in a different employment context would enable them to win a workplace harassment suit? I have nothing to suggest this is the case here, but its certainly happened, and I think where it does a candidate is quite entitled to resign from the party and sit either as an independent or with another party.
* Voters tend to hate by-elections. (Personally I love ‘em, but that’s just me). Even some who might not agree with Lee’s decision might prefer that he just did it than put them to through voting again.
* Period of time served is also an issue. Let’s say it was 3 months to the election. Would you seriously say that Lee should cause a by-election in that case? While I was thrilled when Hanna came across, I was a bit troubled that he had served only about a quarter of his term as a Labor MP. In this case more than 2/3s of Lee’s term is complete, so if the Labor voters who backed him don’t like it, they don’t have to suffer for that long.
* I agree the case is stronger in the Upper Houses. As Andrew B noted, the cost factors/annoyance of by-elections are not there, and outside Tasmania, the party vote trumps the personal by two orders of magnitude at least.
“* Voters tend to hate by-elections. (Personally I love ‘em, but that’s just me). Even some who might not agree with Lee’s decision might prefer that he just did it than put them to through voting again.”
And Anna Bligh would also surely be thankful that there is not a by-election right now given it would likely highlight how deeply unpopular her government is….te he he!
If MPs are elected purely as representatives of a party, then they should resign from parliament if they change parties. This is especially true if their decision results in a change in the control of parliament (as occured after the 1983 Qld state election or when Mal Colston became an independent).
If an MP is elected purely as an individual, it doesn’t matter what party they join.
Ronan’s election is probably only slightly due to a personal vote and mostly due to the party support. His election was very unusual – remember that Labor had never held the state seats of Indooroopilly or Toowong, or the BCC Wards of Indooroopilly (Sallyanne Atkinson’s old Ward), Taringa (Denver Beanland’s Ward), Walter Taylor or Toowong, before Ronan won Indooroopilly in 2001. Denver Beanland almost lost Toowong in 1989 but was saved by a strong Liberal vote in East Indooroopilly.
Ronan’s change of party won’t change control of the Legislative Assembly so, on balance, he doesn’t need to resign.
Ronan would be aware that the best Greens vote was ~25% in Mt Cooth-Tha in the 1995 election at which the Greens concentrated a lot of effort into Drew Hutton’s campaign in a campaign in which there was a big protest vote against the Goss govt. I would guess that the Greens would have the best chances of winning in Mt Coot-Tha, South Brisbane, Brisbane Central or the sunshine coast hinterland.
As a personal aside, Ronan Lee was an inspiration for the Labour Victory Front. “Long live the eight-legged spider!” I recall student meetings in the early-mid 90s at QUT at which Ronan wore an aqua-coloured suit.
Yep, Sacha, maybe I should have put in a disclosure – Ronan was the original Comrade #1 for our little hoax. I should scan in some of the posters some time – I still have them all!
Lee was AWU-faction ALP. The Greens can have him. Are you Greenies sure you want his social views?
Yep, there’s a problem for The Greens to be sure. If a conscience vote on abortion comes up, it’s hard to separate out the one Greens MP following his conscience from the party – because he’s it as far as state parliamentary politics is concerned.
How did he vote on the stem cell bill?
He was! “Comrade Lee” – it always reminded me of a character in Naked Lunch. He inspired a movement! I still have the Little Blue Book – required reading. “Comrades, we must engage in self-criticism!”
I disagree with Sam – the fact that the Greens won a certain percent of the vote doesn’t mean that they should necessarily have a certain fraction of the total parliament. Personally, I’m in favour of a majority choosing a government, which doesn’t necessarily happen in a system of single member electorates (e.g. 1995 Qld and NSW, & Federal 1990, 1998). However, given a system of single member electorates, there is not necessarily a connection between overall support for a party and how the parliament is constituted.
Sam’s argument is that the single member system is inadequate. As it can lead to to governments being chosen in a parliamentary system that aren’t supported by a majority of voters, I agree. But this doesn’t mean that it’s ok for elected MPs in a single member system to change parties with the effect that “under-represented” parties (according to a PR system) have more MPs.
The funniest thing was when ISO people couldn’t discern whether whether the LVF posters were genuine.
To answer my own question in manner of Kevin Rudd, Ronan Lee voted against the stem cell bill on October 11 2007.
The best way to get the division list is to search “stem cell” in this archive for 2007:
http://parlinfo.parliament.qld.gov.au/IsysHanSimp.htm
I haven’t been through the whole Hansard record of debate to see if he spoke.
“the urgent need for embryonic stem cell research are not compelling”
Interesting, Tyro. If I lived in Indooroopilly, I’d certainly have some difficulties voting for an anti-choice MP. The sort of “pro-life” propaganda he’s spouting in that extract is also worrying from the pov of understanding science compared to alarmism.
I wonder how much of a background check The Greens did on Lee, and whether these sorts of issues were discussed. They’ve got a very big stake in his success now, and in the absence of any other elected members, he’s going to have a lot of influence in shaping public perceptions of The Greens in Queensland.
Also
and
see http://parlinfo.parliament.qld.gov.au/isysquery/99e9d40d-c247-4406-9bea-8647b9a3eb84/3/doc/Ronan%20Lee%20spk%20Indooroopilly%202007_10_10_119.pdf#xml=http://parlinfo.parliament.qld.gov.au/isysquery/99e9d40d-c247-4406-9bea-8647b9a3eb84/3/hilite/
What leadership role will he play in the Qld Greens?
Good question, Sacha.
Kim’s right in saying he’ll be the public face of The Greens now. How that meshes in with Senate candidates, and indeed the organisational leadership is a very interesting question.
The role he plays could be quite interesting if his views and those of Greens voters are quite different on some key issues (although being different on one key issue may be considered a personal quirk).
Another point is that parties have cultures which outsiders have to deal with when they join.
Bob Brown:
http://greensmps.org.au/blog/first-greens-mp-qld
MLA’s are elected to represent an electorate NOT a party.
There is no obligation to join/remain in/side with any party.
We all know this, hence plenty of jaw-jaw here about resignation or otherwise.
But no real life resignation. That seem to be quite rare among party-jumping MP’s.
How often have party-jumping MPs resigned from parliament? Cherryl Kernot did it in 97.
I would also point out that Lee would have had considerable financial backing for his election campaign from the ALP – probably receiving more support than was available to the entire Greens party across the State.
So if he’s defected and the Greens have accepted him, than it surely is only fair that a large proportion of the money spent electing him be paid back to the ALP. (I’m willing to concede that this should be pro rata, as he did serve time as an ALP member, and to knock off the money the ALP would have received for his primary votes).
If you were really pure and upright, you’d also factor in the untold hours of volunteer time put in by local ALP members – I would hazard a guess that the number of ALP volunteers in his seat outweighed local Greens by probably 10 to 1.
If the ALP isn’t compensated, then surely the Greens are profiting by Lee’s deceptive behaviour?
From the Green’s site linked above;
“Now with Ronan becoming our first Greens member, hundreds of thousands of Greens supporters in Queensland have a real say on the floor of Parliament.”
Yep. too bad about the voters of Indooroopilly.
Kim,
Interesting, Tyro. If I lived in Indooroopilly, I’d certainly have some difficulties voting for an anti-choice MP.
Just FYI, at the national and I think most state levels, all Green MPs have had a conscience vote on stem cell research because the Party does not have a clear policy on it in most instances, and recognises it as an extremely complex scientific and moral question. This is compltely different from pro-choice policies, which all Green parties in Australia have – it’s a core part of the AG platform I’d argue – and no Green MP to my knowledge has ever been given or would be countenanced a conscience vote on abortion rights. I’m also not sure how you get from anti-stem cell to anti-choice from the above quote?
Having said all that, I am always extremely dubious about Party defections, and last time this happened for the Greens in SA it was not a good result. I’ll remain sceptical on this one. I think the Qld Greens are a tad more maverick than other state Green parties – which is kind of understandable given the politics of that state – so I’ll be watching with interest how this one plays out.
Methinks Mr Lee knows he is dead meat at the next state election so he is positioning himself for bigger things, namely, numero uno on the Greens Senate ticket at the next federal election, where he will be in with a real chance, especially if it’s a double dissolution.
It’s his stated position, I understand, myriad.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,,24451391-601,00.html
Sam Clifford:
http://publicpolity.wordpress.com/2008/10/06/ronan-lee-joins-the-greens/
Thanks for that Kim – and ugh. Well I’m not at all relaxed.
one look at the charter of the Greens, let alone policies, shows that having an MP who is anti-choice is completely antithetical to Greens policies and principles.
The Queensland Greens appear to be a different beast from the Tasmanian Greens, myriad. Having said that, I’m also disappointed in Bob Brown’s seemingly casual dismissal of the importance of an anti-choice stance.
Especially when the Greens were being fought in 2004.
http://www.cathnews.com/news/402/70.php
Oh dear.
Interesting link, steve.
I’m predicting Ronan will jump seats too, and stand for the Greens in South Brisbane, where an “It’s Personal” narrative could add just the required edge to an already quite plausible set of numbers, IM
hO, for a Get Rid Of Anna Now (G.R.O.A.N.), South-Brisbane-is-the-new-Bennelong, Libs lay-back-and-think-of-queensland-just-preference-greens strategy.Queensland Greens could do with a bit of a transplant of some dingo into them.
Mr Lee will know how politix is played for real, no-holds-barred Peel Street style, and can maybe get them wised up, like Bob and Christine are, but only after after fighting their way in, on no-one’s coat-tails or brand.
They need less Bilby, and more Antichinus.
The Qld Greens have a history of attracting strange people. An anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage Labor MP from an AWU background defecting to them? – why not! I used to be a member of the Greens and I remember in the ’90s they had some pretty strange people connected to the gun lobby in their ranks. Then in 2004 they had the big factional split with the Grassroots Greens who advocated that Peak Oil be the main electoral platform.
Yes, they do have a fairly unique and colourful culture. So we may see Ronan Lee yet again jumping ship after a few months of attending their State Council meetings when he is faced with the reality of who he has actually jumped into bed with.
He may also get a bit freaked out when he realises that organisation also isn’t their strongest point and that their membership and support base in reality is so low that they have problems staffing all the booths – even in prominent inner city electorates like his. The only reason they do so well in South Brisbane is because so many hippies live there and its not too hard for them to walk down the road on election day to help out.
Also heard a rumour that Qld Greens membership is in danger of falling below 500. They have been emailing all sorts of people to get them to renew/rejoin including some of the old Grassroots crew. Lots of prominent members, including founding members and their former web master resigned last year.
Lee has probably already committed political suicide by turning his back on the ALP voters in Indooroopilly. However he could have saved himself a lot of agony and just become an independent. The Greens certainly do not have the resources to save his career!
And then there’s the “Beyond Left and Right” Third Way mob in the Qld Greens.
And the anti-union small business boosters like Anne Boccabella.
“Methinks Mr Lee knows he is dead meat at the next state election so he is positioning himself for bigger things, namely, numero uno on the Greens Senate ticket at the next federal election, where he will be in with a real chance, especially if it’s a double dissolution.”
I thought Larissa Waters was hoping to be the next Senator. Mr Lee may have to grow some claws if he is hoping for the Senate.
The huge cat fight that raged through the Qld Greens between the National Convenor Juanita Wheeler and Waters for the #1 Senate position in the last Federal election was sordid to say the least. Was dubbed the battle between Beauty and the Beast by some onlookers. Ended with Beauty winning, with much help from her team of besotted male admirers, and the Beast taking her bat and ball and resigning as National Convenor.
Well, It’s certaintly put the cat amongst the pidgeson a bit at least.
What would the ALP strategists be thinking this morning? Its a seat that based on recent polling is gone at the next election (I’d still say, wait for it) but now it has a Greens incumbant who has at least tried to get out in the community, It may come down to what they fear more another LNP member or a former ALP member who has some insight on their playbook and would set a dangerous precedent if more Left-leaning issues come up.
The LNP on the other hand must be just about sick of ‘independent poachers’ in seats that they should in a normal cycle be holding, all we are changing is the word ‘independent’ for ‘Minor Party’. But who knows what’s going on in the LNP hive-mind at the moment, they still might be thinking destroy the Liberal Western Faction, winning Indooroopilly may not have been high on their priority list, who knows what is though?
It may not yield a good result, but at least the race will be interesting.
PinkyOz.
The LNP really don’t have any choice about winning Indooroopilly, I’d say PinkyOz. If they can’t take a marginal seat in Brisbane under 3% with a traditional Liberal base, then they may as well give up.
btw, danny @ 68, I know you’re not an Anna fan, but that’s crazy talk, dude! Anna’s no John Howard. Some people might be disillusioned with her, and others might be tired of the ALP in government, but there’s hardly a huge impetus of anti-Anna sentiment per se out there.
I strongly suspect the Greens/protest vote in South Brisbane is as big as it’s going to get. Last time around, they were in third place – by a substantial margin – to the Libs and Bligh won it on primaries.
http://www.ecq.qld.gov.au/elections/state/state2006/results/district73.html
And Lee’s no Maxine McKew. The socially conservative Catholic thing is hardly a good look in South Brisbane, as you must know. And if he were fool enough to run there, you can bet it would become an issue.
Kim, the Greens Charter applies to all Greens parties, not just Tas – the link probably confused you ’cause it’s just where I found the quickest link. And as the Australian Greens Constitution says, to disagree with the charter is to call into question one’s membership of the party.
The Australian Greens are also signatories to (not to mention influential in the drafting of) the global greens charter
My understanding, and I’m sure of many other green members, is that our elected reps do not have a conscience vote on abortion rights, unlike stem cell.
glad not to be in Qld while this one plays out.
Thanks, myriad.
It could get interesting because there’s something of a push for abortion law reform in Queensland at the moment.
“And then there’s the “Beyond Left and Right” Third Way mob in the Qld Greens.”
I think you’ll find Bob Brown is one of those as well, Kim. “politics of left and right versus politics of the future” was the slogan for the United Tasmania Group in 1972, and the Germans took up “neither left nor right but in front” in the late 80s
Maja, you seem to know less than half of a bunch of stories, and I don’t propose to correct you on all of them here. But it is a complete fabrication to say that at any time in the last, I don’t know, at least five or six years, that the Qld GReens had less than 500 real, valid, financial members on the books. Last year we shifted all memberships to be renewed on the same date,instead of throughout the year. As a result there has been a lot of correspondence out of the party office with reminders and followups and so on, but only to people who were, you know, current members who hadn’t renewed. You’ve clearly got a bone to pick with the Greens. How about you get that off your chest instead of making up gossipy half-truths?
Kim,
Indooroopilly is a must win for the LNP, no argument there. The only difference now its they might have to work a little harder, instead of letting ‘nature take it’s course’ as to say and getting away with some lazier campaigning in the area.
I still don’t have much expectation for the LNP in SEQ though so it may be a bit futile anyway.
PinkyOz
I see your point, PinkyOz.
Thanks for that, Darryl. Somebody should inform those Greens who keep talking about challenging Labor from the left, then.
From Bernard Keane today:
http://www.crikey.com.au/Politics/20081006-Ronan-Lee-cuckoo.html
Graham Young:
http://ambit-gambit.nationalforum.com.au/archives/003406.html
True, I’m no longer an anna fanboi, tho’ i do confess i once was a bit was when she was just another parent you’d bump into at the tuckshop or in the school stairwell or even having coffee in Barista Boulevard. She really lost me when she boosted Kaiser, and now has the cheek to re-cycle his Iemma plan as Q2. That and railroading the children’s hospital into her electorate despite most clinician’s expressed wishes. Don’t get me started, I gather it’s not polite to talk about gritty anti-ALP stuff like that here, and I don’t want to pointlessly offend. Hell, once when I had a mild go at Kev, I was accused of being an Ackermanite. You guys really know how to hurt. Mind you, for the same post, I got a “Word” sticker from Ms. Cat, so it’s an ill wind ….
But for those that don’t follow Kim’s link, behind the functional rhetoric, is the fact that the margin Anna missed out on going to preferences on was a whopping huge 1.5%. When I’ve got time and motivation I’ll put that in the perspective of what she gained/dropped from her previous. I honestly don’t know…tell you what, before you look, give me odds she didn’t drop more than 1.5% primary vote last time. I do take on board your thesis that disappointment in her has hit an all time low, (or should that be high?), but being on the ground here, I’m not buying it.
And the substantial margin Greens trailed Libs into second place was less than 4%, or 15% of the liberal vote. Chance of more than 15% of Liberals in Anna Bligh’s electorate having enough schaudenfraude in their veins to dance with a Green devil to be rid of her? Depends if the Greens throw up a candidate that’s plausible for that sort of campaign, and as I say, after a deep draught of the green and red cordials, Ronan could just be that sort.
As for crazy talk, how’s this alternative scenario that’s going around… It’s really an ALP plot, they are planning to not run in Indooripilly, and will do what it takes to get Ronan in as a green, in exchange for greens taking off pressure in certain seats. It will require a stunt that makes Ronan the Green look like a veritable Man In Tights to the locals. Current favourites are dumping Traveston at the right time, and reading the tea-leaves correctly on the Kenmore flyover as the right spend for western suburbs commuters.
The fly in the ointment of course is the LNP will be too stupid, selfish and gutless to roll the dice, and pay back the favour Greens did them with Borbidge.
Meanwhile, she’s been gutless about these suburbs getting run over by the liberal council, but here hubby was a transport czar while it was all getting cooked up, if he wasn’t in the kitchen,
Ooops that last bit escaped the “This is not a south brisbane electorate discussion” filter. I was getting, as they say, carried away.
Danny, people in the Queensland Greens themselves recognise that even under the most favourable circumstances, their vote has real trouble getting ahead of 21% max. And Anna could still win the seat with a primary lower than 50%. In any case, this is all entirely speculative on your part, as far as I can see, and I’ll repeat my point that an ex-AWU darling of the fundie/Christian anti-choice forces candidate is no Green messiah.
Of more importance is the implications in Indooroopilly:
And cold shower time:
Quotes from Graham Young.
http://ambit-gambit.nationalforum.com.au/archives/003406.html
I’d also suggest a cold shower on the “ALP plot” conspiracy theory. You can bet your bottom dollar that Lee has earned enormous antipathy from his former comrades. There’s nothing like the political hatred ALP true believers direct towards “rats”. I’m not a Labor true believer, btw, but I’m still happy to say that unless something radical changes, I’m more than pleased to be intending to vote for Grace Grace and Anna Bligh next year.
Btw, you can be as anti-ALP as you like here. I don’t see why you would expect people who don’t feel the same to agree with you, though.
The primary swing against Bligh from 2004 to 2006 was around 1.5%. I’m not sure how being on the ground works for you, but often when people have strong partisan views they tend to associate and talk to others with similar views. You should really be canvassing swinging voters in South Brisbane who don’t pay much attention to politics if you want to get a good read. As I say, those who do have already departed from the ALP. I also think you’re underestimating the number of voters Bligh appeals to because she is the first woman Premier. Anyway, as you also say, this isn’t really the topic of this thread.
I wonder if Ronan knocked on the Family first door?
“Maja, you seem to know less than half of a bunch of stories, and I don’t propose to correct you on all of them here. But it is a complete fabrication to say that at any time in the last, I don’t know, at least five or six years, that the Qld GReens had less than 500 real, valid, financial members on the books. Last year we shifted all memberships to be renewed on the same date,instead of throughout the year. As a result there has been a lot of correspondence out of the party office with reminders and followups and so on, but only to people who were, you know, current members who hadn’t renewed. You’ve clearly got a bone to pick with the Greens. How about you get that off your chest instead of making up gossipy half-truths?”
Daryl, no you are right that I am not up on all the latest gossip. Just that some of my friends, including one who hasn’t been a member for years, have been getting all sorts of begging emails to join/rejoin. Copy of the latest one forwarded on to me by someone sent by one of your branches to a person they should have known better would not join up:
“Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 21:12:33 +1000
Dear Greens and Green supporters,
The next state election will be sometime after February next year but the months will no doubt slip away quickly.
The membership form gives a scale of fees stressing your ability to pay. I feel it should stress your level of interest so if you feel like only paying the smallest amount, be happy to do that. Membership fees are only a small fraction of our total income. It’s members we’re after, not dollars. Please consider encouraging like minded friends to also join.
We’re also keen on running a full range of candidates at the state election. Some of these will be very committed and will expend much energy and many dollars in their campaigns. Some will be only paper candidates. (No real campaign but a Green position on the ballot paper.) We need both. Many people can’t run because of problems with their jobs or future career prospects.
If you are in a position in life where you could be a candidate, please consider it.”
I don’t think I actually said that Qld Greens had less than 500 members over the past five or six years though. What I did say was that the Greens currently do appear to be in a bit of trouble. How I know is that another friend phoned up the local branch rep after getting a similar begging email – once again recently (not linked to any one date renewal thing) – and was told the Qld Greens DESPERATELY needed members to renew lest the 500 member thing be breached.
And believe me, Darryl, I know SO much about the Greens. I was a member of that party before you even came along in the ’90s. But luckily for you guys I am SO over you lot that I did not keep all the emails, strange letters and weird memorabilia from my past. Let’s just say that there are probably people out there who did and it would make one heck of a book. Just to give you a few leads why don’t you ask about the defunct branch which used to operate on the southside in the ’90s with members of the Sporting Shooters Association running it, some of who went off to join One Nation, who for years consistently ran as Green candidates. It was this branch who largely helped defeat the Goss government by preferencing the Liberals.
Sensibly you guys took down your old website which had all that damaging archival material relating to the Senate Beauty and Beast fight and the 2004 Grassroots factional fight. However since you did actually let it sit there for several years there are probably heaps of people out there – members/ex-members or otherwise who have documents to back up the so-called half truths!
I should have known better than to jump down this rabbit hole. There’s been no official correspondence from the Greens of the type you referred to, but I don’t know what branches and individuals have been sending out off their own bat.
You’re just going around spreading rumours and half-truths and I’m not going to waste my time trying to correct every wrong impression you’re spreading. But by the by, I didn’t join the party in the 90s and I’m a paid up member of the Sporting Shooters meself (and until last week I was State Convenor).
d
Kim: “I don’t see why you would expect people who don’t feel the same to agree with you, though.” Oh I don’t, and wouldn’t want it, down with echo chambers and narcissistic mutual admiration societies I say. I could go to XXXX for that.
I’ll respect the threadedness-convention and refrain from Anna/ALP critiquing here, maybe a thread-maker will lay out a patch for that sort of frippery sometime.
I don’t want to read too much between your lines, but are you saying there’s a large “number of voters Bligh appeals to because she is the first woman Premier” like that’s a good thing? I will confess I used to enjoy being able to point Anna out to my daughter when she attended the same (terrible) school orchestra concerts because her son was in it too, and say “She’s going to be the next Premier”.
I guess the higher the hopes, the greater the dissapointment.
“I should have known better than to jump down this rabbit hole. There’s been no official correspondence from the Greens of the type you referred to, but I don’t know what branches and individuals have been sending out off their own bat.
You’re just going around spreading rumours and half-truths and I’m not going to waste my time trying to correct every wrong impression you’re spreading. But by the by, I didn’t join the party in the 90s and I’m a paid up member of the Sporting Shooters meself (and until last week I was State Convenor).”
My whole point, Darryl, about disorganisation and lack of planning in the Greens. The branch in question who sent the email was South Brisbane if you want to rap knuckles, and it was a branch up north of Brisbane my friend phoned up.
I find it strange that the former (until last week) State Convenor of the Qld Greens would admit to being in the Sporting Shooters organisation. Isn’t there something about non-violence and gun control somewhere in the Greens policies.
And talking of rabbit holes, I hope you don’t go around killing bunnies and kangas and other small furry creatures as part of your fun with Sporting Shooters.
Oh, dear, Darryl, the Greens just cannot help shooting themselves in the foot (probably the wrong pun here) every time!
I’m starting to think that Mr Lee may have been rejected by Family First which is why he tried the Greens. You guys are so desperate to have a presence/any presence in the Qld parliament after 15 years you will take just about anyone.
This is no doubt unfortunately true for some people. Personally I think it’s very closed-minded – legislators and MPs have swapped parties in many democracies. And I was a labor councillor candidate in the recent NSW local govt elections.
When we switch en masse to skippy burgers, and feed the world with wallaby (”the veal of roo”), to y’know, be green, how are the hopsters going to be induced to shuffle off this mortal coil, for our resistant non-vegetarian sustenance, if not by crack small bore shots?
“What’s that Skip, you’ll
fly the helicoptercut your own throat to save everyone the trouble?”Of course someone can be green, and still want to be a crack shot. Would it not be greenish to recognise the problem, and do something about, even get one’s hands dirty, about feral pigs, and goats, f’rinstance? I way more trust that sort of landcare green than those that just fly the bumpersticker of convenience on the back of their suburban 4wd.
BTW, I am not, nor have ever been, a member of a Green party, not Chatreuse, Lime, or even Pea. I admit I am partial to GI lime cordial, and have a copy of the Whole Earth Catalog.
Andrew Bartlett -
In order to function party discipline needs to be maintained. Party lines, like all political vectors are products of compromise. No-one agrees 100% on anything. You join the mob you disagree with the least. And you agree to keep your heresy in-house so to speak so as to maintain a united front in order to be effective.
.
But that creates a moral loophole by which local candidates are able to evade their duties to local constituency because they’re being over-ridden by the party machine. One such case is the Vic member for Melbourne Bronwyn Pike who has consistently failed to provide a voice for the concerns of her constituency viz the environmental desecration of local parkland in favour of dodgy property deals.
.
She knows that the majority of locals don’t want what’s happening to happen and yet she does almost nothing about it because the party’s cosy with the developers and’ve basically decided that, because the seat is a safe one for the ALP, they can get fucked.
.
Ironic isn’t it? Loyalty is rewarded with betrayal.
.
Of course it isn’t so safe anymore. The Greens’ve come close to winning the seat the last two elections. It’s only been by the usual tactics of ideological ping-pong and manipulation of local community and ethnic association that she’s managed to keep the seat.
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In the event that the outrage over the conversion to inner-city parkland became well-organized (the organization at the minute is being led by someone who is at best ineffectual and at worst nuts) Ms Pike would find herself under the serious threat of losing her seat.
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Now say she decides to do the right thing by her constituency and break ranks with the Brumby government after unsuccessfully lobbying for her constituency in the face of corporate/government collusion. Would she be wrong to cross the floor? Or right? Her party machine would no doubt cry immorality. But in my view they’d be full of shit.
Mark –
.
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As opposed to most of the nice folks in the AWU who’re in it to make the world a better place.
To all those people seeing a deep ethical problem: if the ALP disbanded and joined the Greens would you see this as less of an ethical problem?
No?
How about the Liberals disbanding and getting absorbed by the Nationals?
What’s the difference in principle?
At least Ronan can claim to have quit because the ALP keeps trumpeting its environmental credentials while in fact promoting coal, delaying renewables and focusing infrastructure spending on roads rather than public transport. And there’s that dam proposal on the Mary River as well.
So he has a reasonable case for saying he split with the ALP on principle. They have overt policies and covert policies that are in contradiction. Put in another way, the spin doesn’t match the reality. Put in yet another way, the ALP is dishonest.
Now, if we go to the LNP, what was the big issue of principle on which they merged? It was purely a matter of electoral pragmatics. What’s more, the fact that the Nationals have de facto taken charge of the new party means that whatever reason Liberal supporters may have had to choose the Libs over the Nats has been given short shrift.
Well, this one from Bob is comic gold …
ALP defection a lesson for Garrett, say Greens
Exactly why did a pretty clever political operator decide that he wanted to use that line today? Espically if you aren’t confident that Lee would win re-election. And I’m sure the voters of Kingsford Smith (for which 52% voted ALP and just 10% voted Green) would be just as apreciative if found in the same position.
PinkyOz
“I should have known better than to jump down this rabbit hole. There’s been no official correspondence from the Greens of the type you referred to, but I don’t know what branches and individuals have been sending out off their own bat.
You’re just going around spreading rumours and half-truths and I’m not going to waste my time trying to correct every wrong impression you’re spreading. But by the by, I didn’t join the party in the 90s and I’m a paid up member of the Sporting Shooters meself (and until last week I was State Convenor).”
Just a small addition to my previous post. Remembered that Darryl Rosin, in addition to being former State Convenor for Qld Greens was also a candidate for Greenslopes electorate in 2006 which would place him in South Brisbane branch of the Greens. The branch I identified for him above as having sent the desperate email calling for new members/renewals.
Talk about the left hand not knowing what the right does?
And just what does he find to shoot in South Brisbane? Hardly any feral pigs running wild or farm animals needing to be put down in West End?
As I said above, strangeness is nothing new to the Qld Greens!
Re: Bob Brown’s comment: Indooroopilly is more likely to elect a Greens MP than is Kingsford Smith.
Phillip
if it’s a principle problem, then, to be consistent, he has one of two choices -
(i) contesting the seat in a by election; or
(ii) paying back the monies the ALP spent in getting him elected.
By accepting the ALP’s support to win the seat, he entered into a contract to support the ALP in Parliament.
If he wanted to stand as an independent and NOT benefit from ALP endorsement, that option was open to him at the time.
Having accepted the ALP’s money and endorsement, he had an implicit contract both with the party and the electorate to support the ALP.
If he wants to break the contract, and maintain a stance of principle, he has no choices other than the options outlined above.
SteveAtThePub [55] you said
Confound you , Sir, you’ve forced me into agreement with you yet again.
Everyone:
Firstly, I’m rather annoyed at all the hullaballoo about a parliamentarian changing his party …. yet hardly a word is ever said about, for instance, the way the hard-working members in party branches are treated by the crooks and bullies at the party headquarters. This applies to most political parties.
Also, Andrew Bartlett made some good points on [26] above, including
Secondly. Ronan Lee may have anti-abortion views. He is quite entitled to have such views, whether you agree with them or not. If he has a deeply-felt moral or theological reason for holding those views, that’s fine: I’m sure his church, if he is a church-goer, would approve.
However, taking an anti-abortion stance usually seems to be a test to separate those with unshakable loyalty to an extremist POLITICAL cause from those “unreliable” ones more likely to follow their own conscience and perhaps to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ …. and as such, it has everything to do with power and domination …. and nothing to do with morality and religion.
Wonder which it is for Mr Lee?
Hey, that’s just like here, inner city electorate, prime territory for BigBuck$ development with highrises, count the cranes.
McKenzie [100]:
Can understand you getting upset
well, if that is ever tested in Court, can I please have a reserved public seat in the court-room for the duration of the case? Please! Please! It would be far more entertaining than any celebrity trial.
L-O-L
Here in Canada where a first-past-the-post system exists, we’ve had a lot of experience of party switching – the equivalent of Labor-Liberal switching in Australian terms, too. In Canada, the Liberal Party of Canada are more like the Australian Labor Party, but without a strong left faction as the NDP, another party, provides that and about 10% of the seats in the Parliament. The Conservative Party is more like Australia’s Liberals and our PM Harper and your former PM Howard are good friends.
Party-switching… it happens several times a term with several members – I was particularly upset when my local member David Emerson, a Liberal minister in the former government, switched TWO WEEKS AFTER the election to the Conservatives who got just 9% of the vote in this electorate (Vancouver-Kingsway is a Liberal-NDP contest.) That after campaigning strongly against them right to the election! Then two prominent Conservatives, Belinda Stronach and Scott Brison (an openly gay MP from Nova Scotia) switched mid-term in the previous term from Conservative to Liberal, and both won their seats under their new label at the last election.
Like Queensland, Canada now has its own Green MP, the member for West Vancouver-Sunshine Coast, a normally safe Conservative seat with a high Green vote partly due to its almost idyllic harbourside location not unlike the Australian (NSW) seat of Pittwater, and which was won by the Liberals’ Blair Wilson. He’s now switched, so we have a Green MP.
Another odd phenomenon in Canada is that the provincial parties and federal parties are quite detached. So our former NDP premier in British Columbia ended up becoming a federal Liberal minister without having to party-switch. Likewise with a former Conservative minister who became the Liberal premier of Québec.
I realise some of your correspondents will know all of this, but I thought I would post anyway given my interest in Australia’s government and politics.
Oh, and almost forgot – let me know if a politician ever gets ejected from an Australian political party for stomping on a doll likeness of the leader of a world superpower on national TV. I think the conformity of party politics in Australia which Andrew Bartlett has raised would all but prevent someone that interesting from ever getting in there. I could be wrong, though.
I’d be very interested to learn why Ronan Lee was the only Labor MP whom the Greens preferenced against in 2004. I suspect we’ll never be told, now. It does seem as if there’s some pretty strong partisanship from Greens who are now touting him as the best thing since sliced bread. I just hope for their sake and for his that he doesn’t turn out to be a loose cannon on the deck.
Daniel, thanks for the comment!
WTF is it with Queensland and finks? You give us Mal Colston and now this clown? Be careful, Sam and others, with your new MP; if he’ll rat once he’ll rat twice.
…
Graham:
Let’s say you’re a branchie in Indooropilly, who’s preselected Lee and worked for him in the election. He rats to the Greens, who opposed you on polling day. Who’s the crook?
Rather than beat my fists against the invisible wall of rage further let me simply agree with mckenzie at #100 and leave it there. I’m off for bandages, dettol and another Scotch.
While I’m near the fridge I’m throwing away all my f&*king cheese.
An interesting comment by a Qld Greens member below from their web site – passed on to me by a friend! Have also heard online discussion about their newest parliamentary member is very sparse. Either a total black out on discussion or an indication of a totally moribund level of membership involvement/enthusiasm!
“The fact is this. No matter who they voted for, the people of Indooroopilly voted for a representative. Obviously Ronan no longer believes he is able to properly do that as part of the ALP, thus he’s made the switch to the party whom he believes he can best represent the broad interests of Indooroopilly with.
On another matter, I hope this doesn’t provide people with too much of a distraction, the fact is, it’s going to be exceptionally difficult for us to win Indooroopilly.
We don’t have a lot of cash just floating around to be spending on his re-election, it’s a huge gamble. I’m not saying we welcome Ronan to the party and leave him holding the bag at the next election, but if we’re are going to get him, or anyone elected, we have to do it on the cheap.”
Hmm – I wonder if they have told Ronan about this!
Found this. Some commments from people who were there…
http://www.saveourkenmore.com/blog/news/notes-from-second-community-reference-group-meeting#comment-606
“I’d be very interested to learn why Ronan Lee was the only Labor MP whom the Greens preferenced against in 2004.”
I don’t think that’s right Mark. Pollbludger records the Greens recommended no preferences (http://www.pollbludger.com/qld2004.htm#indooroopilly), and my recollection is we directed preferences to the ALP in about 8 or 10 seats and nowhere were they directed against the ALP.
d
Thanks RR for that link, mainly for the link buried in it that leads to another link to a story which doesn’t seem to be getting any MSM coverage, except for one slim story in the courier on the weekend ( I don’t know if it even made the hard copy edition) a month after it appeared in a september edition of that august journal, the Green Left Weekly but which I expect Ronan will draw attention to, or else he’s full of the proverbial, viz:
There’s a picturesque and productive farming district on the darling downs, the Felton Valley, where a wicked corporation,
with the scary formula Di-methyl ether. I used to have to work with ether and I’d rather live in Bhopal than have that shit anywhere near, apart from the coal mine aspect.
The good old GLW quotes Anna Bligh on the issue “[the] government is determined that this state should be in a position to take advantage of our abundance of natural resources. That is why our work with industry, searching for clean coal solutions, is so important”
Note, with her typical sophistry, she isn’t saying this is going to be a clean coal plant. Ambre Energy ( of brisbane and salt lake city, utah) corporate documents state that they want it ‘known as the Felton Clean Coal Project’. For the life of me, I don’t see how industrially, and energetically cosumptive, processing crap coal into a more convenient liquid form makes it “clean” in the sense most of us understand the term ie low or zero carbon emissions. I do see how there’s a lot of buck$ to be made and revenues for Anna’s treasury.
Ronan, if you’re reading this, get onto it because, in a nutshell,
If you ever wanted a story of Bligh’s crew running roughshod over the environment for the lowest of purposes, this sounds like one. Like we need yet another coalmine.
Petr [87]:
If he did knock on the Family First door at all …. wonder what transpired?
Daniel [104 & 105]:
Thanks a lot for those insights. Australians still haven’t got over Billy Hughes switching parties more than 80 years ago.
Got any spare politicians over there in Canada we could borrow for a while, please?
Liam [109]:
While you are over at the fridge, mind if I join you for a scotch?
Attempting to sue Lee for any supposed breach of implied contract would be a sure-fire way to get him re-elected in a landslide …. still, when did common-sense and political savvy ever stop any lawyers in the ALP from going on a rampage?
I’m at work now Graham. Let me have a cup of tea first before I get stuck back into the duty free. I don’t know about your boss but mine frowns upon heartstarting aperitifs, at least in the morning, anyway.
You’ve hit upon a topic that terrifies Party officials and prospective candidates alike.* In South Australia in 1999 there was a Supreme Court case (Clarke v the Australian Labor Party) in which the internal processes of a voluntary association were indeed held to be justiceable—because the political Parties formed a critical part of electoral democracy. That fight was about a stacked branch and a preselection; but the question is open as to whether other official undertakings, like the famous ALP Pledge, would be enforceable in courts. In any case there’s been just under a decade of non-litigation by all sides, with everybody a bit scared of what would happen if every political fight wound up in the courts.
I hope it never comes to that particular Zero Hour: personally I’m satisfied with a purely moral obligation for candidates not to welsh on their undertakings. We obviously disagree on what constitutes good behaviour in our elected officials.
*I’m not a lawyer, I’ve never studied law, the closest I’ve come is drinking coffee outside the NSW Supreme Court in Macquarie St
On this point my recollection is similar to Darryl’s at #111. The Greens didn’t direct preferences in Indooroopilly in that State election. Interestingly enough, the Wilderness Society did intervene in Indooroopilly with a campaign to persuade Green voters to preference to Ronan Lee on the strength of his positions on environmental issues.
One really important and interesting point which Ronan Lee’s political trajectory underscores is that strong environmental commitment does not stand or fall with a rusted-on attachment to the full kit and caboodle of stances associated with TEH LEFT – as the late James Macauley (Quadrant co-founder, Catholic conservative and ardent lover of the south-west Tasmanian wilderness) might have pointed out. I did promise some weeks ago to write a post on this very topic, and I still will. In any case it’s interesting to wonder whether, if James Macauley had lived seven years longer, he might have been arm in arm with Bob Brown in the early 1980s blockading the Franklin River.
I would have thought that sort of threat, to sue a member for leaving a party, would be a contempt of Parliament. Preselections are entirely different as that’s an internal matter for members of a voluntary association bound by the Association’s rules (except where there is legislation governing the conduct of preselections, as in Qld’s electoral regulations)
d (Also not a lawyer)
Well it’d obviously be completely ineffective, Darryl, yeah. I’m sticking to my tried-and-true strategy of Two Minutes Hate.
“Hmm – I wonder if they have told Ronan about this!” @ 109.
Maja, he would be well aware of the situation. Just as he has realised his chances of winning as a Labor candidate in Indooroopilly are about nil. Right now he is getting bucketloads of free publicity around the country and in his electorate. He has an office and staff up to election day and that is a very good start.
Ultimately politicians are trained to make the move that has the best chance of saving their own arse and he seems to have done just that.
Darryl @ 111 – obviously my memory is at fault! Still be interesting to know why he didn’t get Green preferences while a sustantial number of other Labor MPs did.
SteveAtThePub [55] you said
I agree. If one of the old parties loses the plot, or doesn’t take real action on climate change (for example), I think it is fine for one of their elected MPs to change allegiances. Such a move would of course be judged on their stated reasons such as:
[link]
As Adrien points out the confines of party political lines provide a perfect (but I think unacceptable) excuse for MPs to vote for “bad legislation” – such as Howard’s atrocious anti-refugee legisltation – or against “good legislation” such as the National Feed in Tariff bill.
It’s the “vote for me, I am so caring about the enviroment and people” then vote the other way and duck when in Parliament. This is just bullshit.
I liked it when Barnaby Joyce said he as Senator for QLD #1 and Liberal Party line #2. The constraints of party politics are not always good, or necessary.
The next time Ronan contests the seat will be interesting too.
The old parties also have the choice of changing their policy platforms to attract Green MP defections too . . .
Peterc, Peter Garrett chose the ALP on the basis of its policy platform for his candidacy. Of course the reaction from NSW Greens hasn’t been quite so supportive of his “change of allegiances” from the days of the Nuclear Disarmament Party.
Liam, I’ve been thinking about the way McGauran, Kernot, Katter and Chipp changed their party affiliations and the reactions. I think voters may be a bit more tolerant of their MHRs changing than their Senators (who are elected using the above the line vote for the party). I think people are also a bit more tolerant of politicians who change from a large party to a small one than a small one to a large one.
Kernot’s joining the ALP didn’t endear her to many, Chipp’s leadership of the Democrats made him incredibly popular even with people who didn’t vote for him. McGauran changing from the Nats to the Libs was viewed with a bit of displeasure from Victorian Nationals voters. Katter is far more popular as an independent than as a National. Dan Sullivan left the WA Libs to join with Family First and wasn’t castigated in the media as being a political turncoat the way Garrett has been accused of selling out by the environmental movement in general and the Greens in particular.
Good examples, Sam, and I tend to agree with you about the difference in how ratting is seen House by House. Kernot, like Chipp, of course, did the right thing: they both resigned (he in desperation, she in naïveté) from the positions they won as representatives of their Party. Lee should do the same.
It’s fascinating to me just how thoroughly Garrett is despised as a turncoat and sellout amongst the same Greens who’d encourage acts like Lee’s. The road to Damascus goes in at least two directions, you know.
“It’s fascinating to me just how thoroughly Garrett is despised as a turncoat and sellout amongst the same Greens who’d encourage acts like Lee’s.”
Is he? What little anger there is at Garrett isn’t about what party he chose to join, but the policies he is now supporting. Lee doesn’t seem to have recanted on the issues he’s been vocal about (as noted by many above).
d
Darryl, I think I must have got the idea from Bernard Keane. He has more today on why Lee might be “a strange bedfellow” for The Greens, and a preview of some of the mud that might start to fly:
http://www.crikey.com.au/Politics/20081007-Now-Lee-is-a-Green-expect-the-Labor-mud-to-fly.html
Liam,
Which parts of the ALP policy platform do you think informed Garrett’s choice? I formed the impression that he really wanted to be a minister and therefore he saw Labor as his only option to pursue.
He said as much on Melbourne radio earlier this year when he stated “well I am a minister now” as somehow justifying why he approved the environmentally reckless channel deepening project in the bay.
Personally, I am still waiting for him to do some “greening” within the Labor government. I don’t see much evidence of this so far. Viz Gunns pulp mill, uranium mining, forest destruction, bay dredging, north-south pipeline stealing water from the Murray, failed plastic bag ban etc etc.
Mark: when you say “I think I must have got the idea from Bernard Keane” are you referring to the claim that “Ronan Lee was the only Labor MP whom the Greens preferenced against in 2004. I suspect we’ll never be told, now.”, a claim which Darryl didn’t think was right?
People without Crikey subscriptions can’t check your reference. In it’s own small way, that micro-exchange, and some of the other material here, makes me wonder about your reference to BK as a “preview of some of the mud that might start to fly”.
Might? Start? Seems to me it’s been well and truly on for young and old here, but, not having seen behind the pay-wall, I just assume I ain’t seen nothin’ yet. This is prime-cut ALP hating we have here, I’d love to read Mark Latham on it.
I’ve been watching parliament today, there’s been a couple of mentions and allusions to the weekend’s news, but no direct speech from, or question to, or even barb of, Ronan himself.
It’s lunchtime now, I imagine he’s got a table all to himself. Who in that lot of droids would be human and brave enough to run the gauntlet and sit with him?
His childhood and teens being lived near the Irish border will serve him well. Coming late and missing the poison accumulated over the Joh decades, the goss years, the koala road year, the salaryanne strategy, would normally render a normal person incapable of understanding and functioning in the viscerality that is qld politics, but Ronan will have the sectarian troubles back home to refer to for explication. Should be a doddle.
.
Garret obviously chose to join the ALP because it’s capable of winning government. D’uh. Garret’s now a minister. If he’d joined the Greens he’d be one of those in line to inherit Bob Brown’s post when the Idealistic Founding Father finally retires. Maybe.
.
Garret would of course be regarded as a sell-out by puritans and those cynical about the ALP’s environmental credentials. The standard sell-out vs change the system from inside arguments stand. One might also recall Garret’s bitter experiences with the NDP.
.
Nevertheless in 2006 he came down to Victoria to participate in the State elections brouhaha in order to save a minister whose seat was threatened by the local Greens candidate. This campaign was the standard distortion of the Greens preference strategy where the ALP told people that the party had directed preferences to the Liberals. The reality was that in certain seats the party had split the ticket so that punters had the option of preferring the Liberals or the ALP. Garret participated in this besmirching distortion.
.
Many bought it. Dumb fucks. After all the preference deal was at least partially in reaction to the ALP preferencing the Religious Right over them despite contrary assurances. We have the ALP to thank for Steve Fielding.
.
Naturally Garret had to do that. It’s a standard ritual when you join the ALP. They take you into a dark subterranean chamber flanked by sombre dudes in red cloaks. They perform complex incantations, hand you a large knife and direct you to promptly shove it ‘tween the shoulder blades of those who once loved you.
Paul – Ronan Lee’s political trajectory underscores is that strong environmental commitment does not stand or fall with a rusted-on attachment to the full kit and caboodle of stances associated with TEH LEFT
.
This is true. There is no inherent connection between environmentalism in either its conservation or sustainability modes and political ideology. One can be fascist and a greenie.
.
However on reading the transideological appeals of, say, David McKnight I have my doubts that conservatives could function en masse in the current Australian Greens without some spot of bother. Consider for example that it is the only parliamentary party to be led by an openly gay man, that there are a large number of gay candidates. Add to that that it has the most ‘permissive’ of social policies, that it contains a substantial number of persons who’ve come in from the defunct Communist Party of Australia or the ALP Left; something would have to change.
.
Even in the event that the conservatives were of that stripe that now believe that market must be reigned in to protect posterity and a consensus could be found on economic policy the social divisions would inevitably be a cause for severe disruption if not destruction outright.
Mark, not being from Queensland I can’t definitively answer as to why the Greens didn’t preference Lee in 2004 when lots of other Labor MPs got preferences. However, I can make a pretty good guess.
Green preferences are decided by local branches, and usually have much more to do with the views of the members of those local branches than the quality of the Labor and Liberal candidates. Some branches are full of people who take the view that Labor is better than the Coalition so they should be preferenced under almost any circumstance. Others are loaded with people who think “A plague on both your houses”, or that preferences are a matter for individuals to decide, not parties to recommend, or who want to try to bargain to save some local landmark, not realising the price is far too high for the ALP to be willing to pay.
My guess is that Lee was simply had the wrong local branch to deal with. His views on abortion may have been the sealer, but if Indroopilly had an ALP leaning branch at the time I doubt that would have mattered.
Lame. You fail at commenting.
That’s back in the dark days when it was Catholics and Masons, Adrien. We don’t go into goat-rodeo ritual any more. These days they pass around a big plate with tiny glasses of Sambucca on it and you have to drink it, give Tony Burke a standing ovation after his speech, then get home without a taxi from Brighton le Sands.
Each step is more difficult than the last. If you pass, you are one of the Brothers—I believe that these days there also are admitted “Sisters”—and Johnno Johnson greets you by name with a walking stick salute. You get to give the finger to Frank Sartor if you see him, and feign ignorance when someone says the name “Reba Meagher”. Who?
Heh. Hehheheheheh. Even I know better than that.
I love it when you talk serious Liam.
Here’s today’s hansard till lunch. Only mention of Ronan Lee apart from Statement from Bligh noting his resignation was a petition presented in relation to the Kenmore bypass.
http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/view/legislativeAssembly/hansard/documents/2008.pdf/2008_10_07_DAILY.pdf
As a humble constituent of Indooroopilly, I voted for a Labour member to represent the seat on party lines at the last election. I do remember a quite capable Green candidate standing as well as an appalling Liberal candidate who took to waving signs at traffic on the exit from the Walter Taylor Bridge.
Ronan may have had a struggle with his conscience yet he obviously wishes to not only bite but devour the hand that feeds him. What a despicable act to now represent another party while not standing down or trying to change the system from within the ALP. Where’s the loyalty? Personally, I think it’s a Gen Y thing…
Here’s Bernard Keane’s story from Crikey today:
“Green preferences are decided by local branches
Heh. Hehheheheheh. Even I know better than that.”
You would be surprised Liam. You really would.
Perhaps nobody asked for Green preferences in Indooroopilly?
d
You don’t think there’s any truth to what Keane’s “source” says, Darryl?
Geeze, I’ve read some crap in Crikey but that really takes the cake. I wonder why I let my subscription lapse?
The preference thing is wrong, as 60secs at Pollbludger will tell you and he’s not asked anyone from the Greens what the reasons were, so he’s just repeating anonymous ALP spin. And then there’s this:
“It’s said that he carries a picture of a foetus to impress anyone that opposes his views on abortion, although I never saw it,” a factional colleague said
Everytime I try to get some words to describe what’s wrong with that as a piece of news reporting, my head starts to hurt.
d
Darryl, I was posting it for info, since danny was pointing out that not everyone had read it. You’re right that it’s short on fact checking and analysis, but it does tell us something about the mud that the ALP will be throwing, as noted.
Having said that, I do find the embrace of Lee troubling wrt his anti-choice views. I’ve rung a few people today – from pro-choice orgs – and this bit isn’t being exaggerated. He’s way out there in terms of the extreme anti-choice stance. Way out there.
Kim, It’s a beat up since he wasn’t the only ALP member not to get preferences! As I said before, I think we directed prefs to the ALP in 8 or 10 (maybe 12?) seats and nothing for the rest. Maybe it was a few more, I can’t recall exactly. But preferences were the exception, not the rule. I wasn’t joking when I suggested that maybe no one asked for preferences. It’s not like Indooroopilly was a ‘must-win’ for the ALP (or even a ‘likely retain’ in 2004)
d
No probs kim, I’m glad I had the chance to read it. I think it’s more revealing about the sort of un-checked rubbish that Crikey will publish. I forget that every time I read a story from them that I know something about, I see it’s full of stupid errors.
And I shouldn’t underplay the genuine and deeply held concerns some members have about his position on women’s rights. It certainly would have been a factor in reaching a decision – I just get really annoyed but gross errors of fact that can be trivially checked. :^)
d
Fair enough, Darryl, Bernard Keane is to blame. Or whoever he’s been talking to, if he’s just a transmission belt as it were.
I still think you might find Lee is a bit of a time bomb. Just from what I’ve heard today – and the people I’ve been talking to aren’t ALPers. The anti-choice stuff really does concern me.
Just quickly, and thanks to Steve for providing checkable link:
While he might be strictly correct, in a literal-string “Ronan Lee” search engine discoverable sense, to say
I was watching and would have sworn there was a bit more ronan-related snark than that, and so I did a sanity check, since I got the same impression as the ABC regional reporter Chris O’Brien (O’Brien, Keane, Ronan, … it’s a bloody Irish conspiracy)
So I searched the Hansard for the literal string “Greens”.
Sure enough
(You have to have seen the venom in the Ms BLIGH’s delivery to get the full gist of the message. She may wear genteel damask Easton Pearson frockery, but it doesn’t stop her from getting down in the gutter. Can you get steel-toe capped Blahniks? Not that I have anything against not being a slob, some of my best friends aren’t slobs…)
Further to the not-only mention:
Later in the night, Mr Lee actually got a go himself. Hansard seems to thing he’s still an ALP member:
Moral of the story: Don’t believe what you read in
LPblogscrikeyhansardany-bleeding-where?People make mistakes, danny. That search engine and scrolling through Hansard aren’t all that user friendly. Not everything is a conspiracy.
I’ve heard that Lee has been hung out to dry by the ALP ever since getting elected in the first place, that no one in the party expected him to win let alone hold Indooroopilly. The fact that he’s managed to keep it is, as I’m told by constituents of his that I know, testament to just how much effort he puts in.
“way out there in terms of the extreme anti-choice stance. ”
I don’t understand when you say “anti-choice”. Which choice are you talking about? Anti-Life, or Anti-Abortion, or do you mean Pro-Life?
What is it with Crikey and Greens’ bashing?
Bernard Keane seems to have taken up Christian Kerrs’ role of making things up.
Joe – anti-abortion, anti-choice, “pro-life” – pick your term.
Ronan Lee replies to Crikey:
http://www.crikey.com.au/Politics/20081008-Ronan-Lee-Dear-Crikey.html
Sam Clifford [145]:
You are spot-on in drawing attention to a chronic disease in ALL the mainstream parties when you said
All main parties are happy to put up anyone with a bit of get-up-and-go into an unwinnable seat: have them waste their own time, their own effort, their own reputation and THEIR OWN MONEY …. then spit them out when they do not win the unwinnable seat. Of course, the party itself does organize some of its local members to go letter-boxing and to pester voters as they enter polling places …. and yes, they do put some money into advertizing the local candidate [nowadays, that is usually in a minor, fairly inexpensive campaign based on an image of the local candidate with, and subordinate to, The Glorious All-Wise All-Powerful Leader] but you won’t find any such candidates who ended up richer after the election and you’ll find a lot who ended up a jolly-sight poorer.
This is roughly what happened with Pauline Hanson and the Liberal Party [and, incidently, that sort of exploitation is why I declined "generous" offers to contest an unwinnable seat in a state election for a mainstream party after an earlier rough-and-tumble foray into the political arena on a single issue].
In a way, you might think of Lee’s action as being an inadvertent, ad hoc and long-overdue little punishment of the mainstream parties for the way they have exploited all those candidates – and local branch members too – over the years. This couldn’t have happened to a nicer bunch of mongrels. Who knows but it might even make the mainstream parties take a good hard look at why their former members and suppoters won’t even touch them with a barge-pole now.
For the sake of continuity and balance, I’ve burnt a gmail addie on a trial Crikey sub, to take a leaf out of Kim’s copybook, and paste Ronan Himself’s reply to Bernard Keane’s, it would seem, scuttlebut, which was retailed here, initially uncreditted, then challenged, sort of retracted, and blamed on someone else.
I hasten to add: I’m not suggesting conspiracy or anything Kim: as you say, people make mistakes, even people whose professional reputation rests on accurate and honest reference and attribution as SOP.
Just to give it that Crikey snark, they titled it, and displayed it on the issue contents page as: “Ronan Lee: my wallet doesn’t contain photos of a foetus”
Charming people, what.
I’m thinking, because it’s a letter from Ronan, rather than a Crikey staffer, that I’ve copied here, in answer to copy about him here, which he clearly regards as “degenerate..grubby personal politics”, and in line with his wish to “set the record straight about” ( the article reprinted her), it’s, as they say, fair dealing.
Oops, cross post Kim, yours wasn’t there when I started, compositus interruptus. You’ll have deletion rights, I imagine. I congratulate you on your ethics, and just between you and me, cos I imagine this will be deleted to, your work, its catholicity and rate.
Crikey quite obviously have their own political agendas with this sort of tripe.
I wonder if there is a svengali or if they just have a few internal Kerr/Bolt types who get mileage out of controversy? Maybe they want to just hook in more subscribers? I don’t think I will renew my subscription after this.
The QLD certainly could do with some greening – saving the Great Barrier Reef and using more sun instead of coal would both be great outcomes.
Liam #131 – But the knife ‘tween shoulder blades thing still goes right?
I’m right handed, Adrien, so my back-stabbing swings Left. But you knew that, I’m sure.
Comrade! Raise glass, drink toast to stabbing of backs for Glorious March forward…
.
Over cliff. It’s the one idea of progress that the left and right seem to agree on these days. Arguing as we go over of course:
.
It’s your fault
No it’s your fault, pinko
You were driving mate
No I wasn’t.
You just took your hands off the steering wheel that’s all
Here
It’s no good giving it to me now. You’ve just torn it out of the car. What good’s it now?
Well every time you had the wheel the car kept kangaroo jumping.
Only because you wouldn’t let me learn.
You didn’t want to learn, fascist! Commie!
That’s not true fascist!
You can’t handle the truth, commie!
Fascistfartyman
Pinkopoopooface…..
.
AAAAAARRRGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH – Crash!!
.
The sound of groans
And broken bones
The smell of the chemical fumes; and
Impending doom… is broken by a hoarse and pain-filled voice that says:
.
That was your fault.
Yours
Is not
Is too: stupidfucknmonkeys
Thanks, danny.
My point was that the whole point of threads like this – when something new develops – is for people to share information, test it out, critique it, etc. That’s what the internets do well. Crikey is in a different category – they should be fact checking before they publish. On blog threads, the facts or at least opinions and probabilities emerge from interactions over time. So I sorta thought you were implying bad faith on the part of some of the people posting stuff about Lee. I don’t think that’s there. Linking isn’t endorsement!
Quite simple to me, really. Make the bed and lie in it. Posters are free to take the word ‘lie’ as they will.
Inspired, Adrien. Not my cup of tea, but I’m all for having a go with the language, as she is writ.
Reminds me of an old Moir Little Caesar cartoon which has Bill Hayden lying on the ground of the Roman Senate with a sword sticking in his back, blood streaming, the rest of Labor standing around purposively not seeing, and Bob Hawke saying “I was just cleaning it and it went off”.
I’ve just figured out what was bothering me about Lee’s response.
Where’s his union card? Can you be an elected representative of the ALP in Queensland without being a union member? You certainly can’t in NSW.
No you can’t, Liam.
Though Kevin Rudd couldn’t remember which union he belonged to when asked last year…
I was wondering about his Medicare card. But some people are more sensible than I and don’t carry every single card around with them in their wallet.
(I wonder what union Kevin Rudd is a member of? I’m a clerk, meself)
d
What’s with this? As of 1 July 2007, the base salary for a Queensland MP was $126 560.
>>Liam: “Where’s his union card? “…
And which union card could it be that he might carry, as in what sort of A Real Job TM has he had, pre-parliament? I’ve seen his degree was political science sort of stuff, I dunno what that’s a qualification for except politics, academia , and maybe journalism, but as for something in Teh Real World TM…?
Kim:
… Indeed, things thought, and possibly best left, buried and forgotten, have a habit of getting all undead,like….
The mysterious “a source” (now I see the effect of the shift from htere being journalists union, to a medea, entertainment and
clownsarts alliance ) Bernard Keane quotes when he informs the world that “The Greens’ decision not to preference Lee in 2004 – the only Labor MP not to be preferenced by the Greens in the State..”, which Mark might have picked up on, could be a commentor, Sceptic, on a 2006 John Quiggin thread, who wroteCommentors on blogs becoming “a source” for professional journos? Heaven forbid, cos that means that one day, when and if grow up, I could be “a source ” too. Which would be so wrong.
His website claims that he has “lived and worked in Brisbane”. If he’s worked, he’s had an applicable union.
If he was in the AWU faction, I’d want to know where his AWU card was. I’d have thought at least that that particular grouping in Parliament was strictly no-ticket no-start, but hey, Queensland never does fail to surprise.
It just means, Kim, that he is a saintly person who has given his money away to the deserving poor.
Or that he is a Howard aspirational voter who has over-extended on his mortgage.
Well, Ronan the Green ( which reminds me of Robin Hood, which reminds me of Men in Tights, which is a most unfortunate image, one which will probably be forever associated in my mind with him, and now I’ll never be able to take him seriously) is making a fine old semi-celebrity romp of it all.
First, the ABC has put up an audio recording of his inaugural speech, as a green that is, which is probably better treatment than he got as an ALP man, or indeed just about anyone else’s inaugural speech, I wouldn’t be surprised. Getting his ass up to Mount Cootha, by the look of the accompanying pic, might have helped make sure his copy wasn’t spiked. Learnt a bit from Our Kev perhaps?
And accompaning the recording is the story of how badly they treated him in parliament:
He really is going out of his way to be Mr Popular In The House.
He’s getting credit from The Gympie Times for
But what’s probably sweetest is managing to get a correction out of Crikey and Bernard Keane
Not bad for a days work.
Maybe he’s donating it all to Catholics for Life, GregM?
“…he is a Howard aspirational voter who has over-extended on his mortgage”
My thoughts exactly. What does an Indooroopilly townhouse go for these days anyway? He does live in the electorate, doesn’t he?
BBB
About 6 to 700 grand for an Indooroopilly Townhouse, BBB.
A quick look at the internet says $600 to 700 thousand BBB.
Yep, that looks like a possible answer.
What’s the law in Queensland on parliamentary superannuation for defeated members of Parliament?
Lee has qualified if he recontests his seat and is entitled to a life time pension of $63000 (at the moment – half the parliamentary salary) if defeated at the next general election, GregM. If he resigned his seat, he would just get his contributions back and the standard employer contribution – adjusted for growth – rolled into his super fund and could access them at age 55 like anyone else. Lee is 32.
I read that Kevin Rudd’s a member of the Qld public service association.
Thanks for that, Kim. I just asked out of idle curiosity.
Well well, Ronan seems to have succeeded, at least indirectly, in drawing comment from Garrett on trying to save something (for the first time I can recall) – surprise surprise – the Great Barrier Reef! What a coincidence! [link]
But then that’s Garret’s real job – neutralising the Green menace with what little credibility/green credentials he has left.
No probs, GregM.
It hadn’t occurred to me before I thought about it that Lee would significantly disadvantage himself financially if he resigned his seat.
>>Kim: “It hadn’t occurred to me before I thought about it that Lee would significantly disadvantage himself financially if he resigned his seat”: oh, that first rule!
“A defeated member of parliament” – don’t write him off yet. It’s entirely possible , maybe an even bet, that the LNP will make a truly appalling choice in their candidate, and Mike Kaiser might realise he doesn’t have the luxury of waiting till 2010 to pick up Woodridge as planned, and in a terminal act of vanity, could go for this one instead, on the back of a huge pork barrel gesture. After all, he can have whatever he wants from Teh Party, he took the rap.
It kinda depends on how bad things get and how Queensland’s investments and exposures go, and are seen to go. Kev and Wayne may not be in a position down the track to bail out the mother ship, the infrastructure IOU Anna has just got from them may not be able to be honoured, there being more urgent demands on consolidated revenue in a not too distant bleak future.
When it all comes out, and it becomes clear that what’s left on the labor side isn’t what you could really call talent, that the at-least-half-smart-ones have taken their babcock and brown directorships etc long ago, then folks might conclude a set of new nongs can’t be much worse that the old set of nongs, and might as well give them a go.
IE It could be Mike’s last chance to get his hands on a parliamentary pension and super scheme. As he says: “My intention is to re-enter the Queensland Parliament….I have a great sense of unfinished business here in Queensland. I had only one year in the Parliament and I’d like to spend some more time there”.
Mike Kaiser has unfinished business in Queensland: sounds like Cape Fear, or a bad Noir plot. Anna sure looked after him, he must have some sort of leverage, his work for Iemma wasn’t what anyone’d call great.
Upon reading Ronan’s inaugural speech, from after 3 surprising wins ago, a blast from the past jumped out at me: he acknowledged owing his start in the party, and one suspects every thing he knows, to Jim Fouras. Something in the tone reminded me of some sort of a ritual that I’d read before, and I realised what it was: Anna Bligh’s maiden speech, where she made the same sort of gratitudinal noises towards Anne Warner, who handed South Brisbane over to her.
I’ve seen those two names in conjunction before, Fouras and Warner, and that’s as contestants in the “fierce” 1986 pre-selection battle for South Brisbane, a safe seat which Jim had held since 1980. Ms. Warner lost her oncer neighbouring Kurilpa seat to a redistribution, and she wanted, and got, Jim’s seat.
Saying that it was a fierce pre-selection is a bit of an understatement: From an Antony Green ABC election guide page
I’ve heard in local coffee shop chatter that people interred in Dutton Park cemetry voted in that election.
There’s a beautiful but awful, Shakespearian even, symmetry here: Warner and Fouras prefiguring Anna and Ronan, pretty much mutually exclusive, even annihilatory. (When you read Ronan’s inaugural speech, it doesn’t have the usual obsequies toward Teh Party per se, it just notes that during his campaigning, he gathered that people thought Peter Beattie was a good bloke, the testamonial to Fouras, and a final solemn promise “to not let this great labor goverment down”. That could, in his mind and heart, be the Beattie labor government, a thing no more, not at all the same as a Bligh government.)
And in the background, over the years, like the primordial serpent, that Son of the Party, Kaiser, who has unfinished business with Queensland.
I know who I’m thinking of: Robert De Niro as the Devil in the ultra-creepy “Angel Heart” with Micky Rourke caught in the ultimate Faustian bargain.
Huh? It’s vaguely possible, but highly unlikely danny. Why would Kaiser run for a seat that probably can no longer be won by Labor? You don’t think he’d have the clout to get a safe seat if he wanted to? This is where you entirely lose me – a few days ago (ha!) earlier on in this thread you had Lee running in South Brisbane, and now you have Kaiser running in Indooroopilly. Neither makes much sense, and it’s all completely ungrounded speculation!
And that was a result of a deal done between the Left and the AWU, the faction Lee was a member of until the other day. The same faction that did his mentor Fouras in, but then, Lee swapped from that faction, didn’t he, when it was no longer in his self interest to belong to it, and joined the AWU. That’s probably the only relevant history here.
I’m really getting tired of “Ronan Lee is the best thing since sliced bread”. No one on this thread who’s a Queensland Green or a Green supporter has addressed his fucked up positions on abortion – except Myriad from the Tassie Greens who’s rightly pointed out this is against what the Greens stand for nationally and what most Green supporters would want from a parliamentary representative.
We have people here decrying the ALP for being partisan, yet anything troubling in Lee’s past – genuinely, not the personal stuff – is glossed over, airbrushed or just ignored. That’s really ironic.
He may well have some positive impact in Parliament – I wouldn’t jump to some of the inflated conclusions about it that are around at the moment – but he’s not the bloody Messiah… he’s just…
No such thing anymore. Latham put paid to it, remember. The states followed suit. MPs elected after 2004 get a 9% employee contribution and have it walled off til age 55 just like the rest of us plebs.
Where has the Opposition Shadow Minister for the Environment and Member for Gympie been hiding this week? He was last sighted on The Dennis Atkins blog at 9.27pm on Sunday night but doesn’t seem to have made it to parliament for the last two days. The attendance record from Hansard yesterday and the day before is missing Gibson.
“Attwood, Barry, Bligh, Bombolas, Boyle, Choi, Copeland, Cripps, Croft, Cunningham, Darling,
Dempsey, Dickson, Elmes, Fenlon, Finn, Foley, Fraser, Grace, Gray, Hayward, Hinchliffe, Hobbs,
Hoolihan, Hopper, Horan, Jarratt, Johnson, Jones, Keech, Kiernan, Knuth, Langbroek, Lavarch, Lawlor,
Lee Long, Lee, Lingard, Lucas, McArdle, McNamara, Male, Malone, Menkens, Messenger, Mickel,
Miller, Moorhead, Mulherin, Nelson-Carr, Nicholls, Nolan, O’Brien, Palaszczuk, Pitt, Pratt, Purcell,
Reeves, Reilly, Reynolds, Rickuss, Roberts, Robertson, Schwarten, Scott, Seeney, Shine, Simpson,
Smith, Spence, Springborg, Stevens, Stone, Struthers, Stuckey, Sullivan, van Litsenburg, Wallace,
Weightman, Welford, Wellington, Wells, Wendt, Wettenhall, Wilson”
Speaking personally, I have in the past been highly critical of disgruntled Queensland Greens who have taken their disgruntlement over internal Greens matters into forums external to the Greens rather than making use of the Green’ democratic processes. I hold myself bound by my own declared principles on this point, which rather limits what I’m able to say on this thread. Get my meaning?
Yep.
I take your point, Paul.
But we’ve had lots of ALP supporters and ALP members on this blog saying things like “I think Beazley is hopeless”, being critical of Alan Carpenter’s policy or campaigning, expressing doubts about Rudd, etc. That’s a different order of things from some sort of replay of internal disputes or preselections or factional stoushes.
Interesting, that, Kim.
I hadn’t thought of it before, but Greens supporters on the internet do seem to show a remarkable Party discipline, far more than you get from the majors or even the Democrats back-in-the-day. Or is it that Laborites take more glee in dumping buckets on their own Party? (Hell, I know which it is for me).
I think Ronan Lee’s defection will be a disaster for the Greens. The dirt file on Ronan Lee is starting to get leaked and we havent seen the worst of it yet. People also have to remember that Ronan Lee is a person loyal to one thing – ‘the cult of Ronan’.
This is a guy who:
1) famously ratted on his ALP University allies, whilst a budding student politician;
2)joined the AWU faction, then ratted on that faction to
3)join Labor Unity faction – caused headaches there, then ratted on that faction to
4)re-join the AWU faction – causing a tremendous level of tension there, only to rat on it and the ALP to
5) join the Greens.
All I can say to the Greens – is “Good Luck” – you’ll need it. With people starting to queue up to tell their Ronan stories, we are in for an interesting side show.
Steve: That hansard link you put up has Schwarten putting in a sick note for the member for Fitzroy, from April till october. He had notified the house the day after he first couldn’t make it. As part of that note, a
is mentioned. So your boy Gibson can maybe just not show, no questions asked, for 21 days?
While I had Hansard up in the browser, I checked out the next day’s record. There was a debate about the “Liquid Fuel Supply (Ethanol) Amendment Bill” the pineapples are putting up. You’d think their environment spokesdroid would be there for that. Hopefully he’s OK, healthwise.
Now, at the risk of getting a black mark from Kim for possibly raising the Ronan the Green vs Sliced Bread temperature, can I just report, (along the lines of “How Green is Ronan the Green” and it’s alternative Borgian formulation “How stooged is the ALP”) Madam Bligh’s stout hearted crew
have of course declared they couldn’t possibly support it.
But how did Ronan the Green go with this issue, aligned as it is with his Super Environment Man Special Subject status, obviously an opportunity to show what he’s made of?
As Steve said, the LNP didn’t have their Regular Environment Man around. Ronan the Green had spent most of the day supporting Gov’t motions, so he could have gone either way. Conveniently, just as he was about to speak, madam deputy speaker announced an influx of GU and UQ students into the gallery. He started up his rhetorical delivery engine
…..(my green thinking credentials) then …..
So he’s out the gates, voting against Teh Firm, in the policy area which he declared he could no longer go along with beforehand. This could be for him what the AWB was for Kev. I’ll bet he was taking notes.
Show Pony or Stayer? We’ll see.
And Kim, just to show that I’m not completely addicted to conspiracy theories, let me say I don’t believe for a moment that Ronan the Green talked with the Pineapples before bailing, timing it so he could vote, and be seen to vote, with them on an environment bill, nor that their environment spokesman being AWOL was no accident.
The Borgias couldn’t be that smart and co-operative.
Heh! At any rate I like “The Borgias”, danny! You might be starting something…
Further to Paul Norton’s comments Oct 9th, 2008 at 9:34 am
It is early days for the new QLD Greens MP, so a lot of process would need to be worked through before you would expect to see Greens commenting on any detail.
Abortion is an issue that cuts right across party divides, and within party confines – including left leaning ones. Just look at the conscience bill and associated debates in Victoria. It is quite refreshing to see democracy actually working rather than just slavishly following “party lines”.
Also, the Greens don’t have organised or formal factions yet – which seems to drive a lot of the angst and bucket of shit dumping that occurs within the older parties (witness Labor supporters canning Ronan on this thread & Crikey). I can’t quite believe the vitriol that Andrew Landeryou and Stephen Newnham dish up, and the Libs are creaking over the Costello vs Kennet factions in Victoria, complete with major leaks and blog postings.
That’s politics. Not exactly edifying, and certainly not focused on good government or dealing with substantive issues like energy policy and climate change. I think Ronan’s move has already put some focus on both of these topics.
Steve, (9th Oct 8.30am),
My father in law passed away and we had the funeral in Gympie so I have been absent from Parliament as you rightly pointed out for Tues & Wed.
I hope this explains my absence.
Dave Gibson
Member for Gympie
Sorry to hear about the death of your Father in Law, David. It does explain your absence.
Steve and Danny,
My father in law passed away and the funeral was in Gympie yesterday so as you quite rightly pointed out I was absent from the Parliament for Tue and Wed.
I hope this explains my absence.
David Gibson
Member for Gympie
David, now that you are back at work, you don’t happen to have any fully costed Environmental Policy you might be thinking of taking to the next election, do you? Or is your policy position just thought bubbles that are uncosted like the other Shadow Ministers?
Greens supporters on the internet do seem to show a remarkable Party discipline, far more than you get from the majors or even the Democrats back-in-the-day.
.
Possibly coming of the still true condition that Greens’ members are still made of idealists less interested in the acquisition of power than the creation of positive change? Many of them even profess not to care if the party lasts as long as the message gets thru.
.
I wonder how long that will last?
Mr Gibson:
(And if it’s not Mr Gibson himself, but an agent, who reads and posted here, please pass this message on to him)
Since you address this sad message to me personally, I feel it my awkward duty, and perhaps privelage, to reply in kind, I hope with a fraction of the dignity you showed when you said your recent absence in parliament was quite rightly noted here.
It’s a terrible circumstance under which you visit us today Mr Gibson. Please accept my condolences, to you and yours, and his, family and friends, etc.
And welcome, and thanks, for your attention. I can only think of one other serving politician who has been brave enough to willingly engage him/herself with the passionate, variable, and somewhat uncontrollable, gaze of an internet blog such as this. That other was Andrew Bartlett, and here, or at least in my estimation, being bracketted in that company is high praise indeed.
Reading back over how it is that you come to address me, I am appalled to think there is a chance that my reference to you, as part of what was only meant to be an impersonal explanation of how leave of absence is treated in the house, might have sounded to you: not to put to fine a point on it, rude and disrespectful.
I’ve seen and heard, and observed here, how bad things get in the house itself, ( happy pills indeed) so I’d be surprised if me saying “your boy Gibson can maybe just not show, no questions asked, for 21 days?” actually caused offense, but if it did, I am terribly sorry. I may not have the eloquence of men and angels, but I mean it. Please take the fact that I also said “Hopefully he’s OK, healthwise.” as evidence.
Similarly I’m pretty sure my further reference to you, or rather the office you occupy, as “Regular Environment Man”, as distinct from Ronan Lee, the actual subject of this surprisingly long-lived blog, who I called “Super Environment Man”, will have been like water of the proverbial duck’s. Of course what I was alluding to was the way the media is setting up Mr Lee as the Bligh government’s environmental critic of notice, not you and the the LNP. I find it interesting and important, if you two play it right there could be some excellent results for us all in it.
The final paragraph, where I outline and discount a hypothetical conspiracy theory ending with “their environment spokesman being AWOL was no accident”, was simply my latest installment in a series of jibes about conspiracy theories in blogdom that I’ve been having recently with another blogger here.
Oh the spokesdroid thing: I went to write spokesman, and remembered how I’d got in trouble here before for using gendered language.
At this point, I’ll be guided by what I remember my old man as saying: “It may be a reason, but it’s no excuse” and “When you’re in a hole, stop digging”
Except to point out, as far as I can tell, the only Google discoverable outlet that has picked up and reported on the possibly significant political fact that Mr Lee, a Green, actually has crossed his partisan rubicon to vote with you, the LNP, is this one. We’re on the ball.
Again, my sincere condolences, and if indicated, apologies.
Danny
Mr Gibson has been busy lately by the look of Hansard from this morning. I thought we were living in 2008 but obviously Mr Gibson has at least made it to March 2007.
Mr SPEAKER:
Honourable members, on 11 September 2008 the member for Gympie wrote to me alleging that the former minister for the environment, the Hon. Lindy Nelson-Carr, has deliberately misled the House in an answer to a question on notice provided on 26 March 2007. In asking question on notice No. 259 the member sought from the then minister for the environment details regarding Queensland parks and wildlife centres and in particular whether any correspondence existed between Mr Michael Gloster and Mr Ross MacLeod and/or Damien McGreevy regarding the visitor information centres within the Cooloola Coast-Great Sandy region. The minister stated–
There is no record of any correspondence relating to this matter between my Senior Policy Advisor, Mr Ross MacLeod and Dr Michael Gloster.
In support of his allegation, the member provided documents obtained through FOI that show a series of emails between Mr Ross MacLeod and Mr Michael Gloster on the topic of visitor information centres and also referring to the places within the Cooloola Coast-Great Sandy region. The member has requested that I refer the matter to the Members’ Ethics and Parliamentary Privileges Committee.
To date, the minister has not commented on the matter in the House or sought to correct the record in any way, despite the matter being raised in the House on 11 September 2008. I have studied the question, the answer by the minister and the documents obtained through FOI by the member for Gympie.
On the face of that material, the statement by the minister in her answer appears to be incorrect. Whether or not the minister knew the statement was incorrect and whether in making it she was deliberately misleading the House are further issues. It might well be that there is a satisfactory explanation, but I am currently restricted by standing orders in the extent that I can investigate the matter. I consider that the matter warrants further investigation and I will therefore refer the matter to the Members’ Ethics and Parliamentary Privileges Committee.
Danny, if David Gibson’s explanation for his two day absence from Parliament is correct (and no doubt you can easily check that), just accept it and admit you were wrong in throwing your slur ar him about his absence from Parliament.
Don’t spend eleven paragraphs (yes I have counted them) patronising him.
If you have differences with him on his policy positions or on other matters of his performance in Parliament then make your case.
Your initial comment regarding his absence from Parliament was not offensive, although it was provocative, but your response to his reply was.
All right you Queensland greens, now you have a member in the house, I hope you are showing due diligence, and at least reading what said member is saying and doing on your, and I suppose all our, behalves.
As I pointed out above he has made a speech flagging his intention to vote against the government and support an LNP bill. That’s right, green MP supports tory bill, who’da thought.
Of course it won’t pass, so it’s all a bit rhetorical, but might not it be a worthwhile exercise to put some sort of a comb over what was in the bill, that the green party, via the agency of Ronan the Green, supported? More so in the U S of A perhaps, but even here it still can be a powerful campaign message, f’rinstance, the ‘he said, she said’ bill-voting score card. Make no mistake, in Monday’s hansard Ronan was tagged ALP, but now he’s on the record as
…. not Mr LEE (Indooroopilly—IND).
Anyone remember how the heiner debacle came to pass? A coalition government did a half-arsed cack-handed legally-flawed job of setting up an enquiry, an instruement of governence. They were just incompetent in technical aspects, and it spoiled the whole show, made it worse, when the Goss gov’t inherited it.
The Government’s objections to this ethanol bill are to prevent the LNP cocking it up like that again, it’s not about the fundamentals, in fact the Minister for Tourism, Regional Development and Industry is recorded with “the Liberal National Party has got the fundamentals right”.
Rather certain procedural details that, in the end, according to that minister, mean “the opposition’s approach to amending the existing Liquid Fuel Supply Act 1984 in order to implement a mandate.. is inappropriate and actually will not work”,
If they are right, Ronan the Green is apparently about to, or has, as a Green, supported a dud bill, not a good look, and possible future haunting material.
Likewise, he is on the record as lending the Greens as welcoming, unqualified, except for the implementation timing, and including UQ in the plan
. Sleeping and caucussing on it a bit more might have allowed for a deeper understanding of the opportunity cost of such a spend on a fundamentally 20th century, terraforming engineering company order-book friendly, big-time tunnels’r'us, approach. That’s about $14,000 per Brisso driver.
You never know, with India and china on the job, as we need them to be, of developing green urban transport sytems, a tens of billion$, plus other inputs, collabration from us in such projects might just help get a global 21st century solution happening.
But the Queensland Greens, via their member of parliament, have said they are happy to go all the way with the tunnels’r'us dream.
Could have done better, with a bit more thought and caucusing i reckon.
Anyway, here’s the link for the Hansard.pdf with the bit of the debate where the Greens input is put on record.
GregM:
1: As I tried to explain, and thanks for the opportunity to re-affirm it, I never meant to slur him about his absence from parliament. Where I come from, doubting someone’s word, especially on something as serious as a family death, is about a slurry as it gets.
Actually it happened to me when I was 21, and lost my 19 year old sister, my lecturer didn’t believe why I said I missed some classes. I brought her the obituary notice next day, and never went near the department again. You go and read the obituaries, I don’t feel any need to.
2: I’m glad you can count up to 11, and know what a paragragh is, I didn’t bother and am not particularly concerned, my concern is more with the possibility that I inadvertantly hurt someone’s feelings in their time of grief, I doesn’t matter who it might have been, and I said what I felt I should after being addressed by name.
3. As to policy differences with him, Steve’s mention was the first I’d ever heard of him or his work. As i wrote, it wasn’t meant personally. I wouldn’t know him from Adam, and it doesn’t matter, my sense of courtesies and transgressions are not directed at particular persons. I might learn to make an exception in your case.
4: It’s an ill wind that blows no good, even from you. I’m greatly relieved that someone thought my initial comment was not offensive, and hope Mr Gibson is likewise. As to whether my reply was, I’ll take my chances, that my intention makes it through.
I gotta say, I reckon you take the cake, “if (his) explanation is correct” indeed. I’ll say it straight out: you should be ashamed of yourself.
Do I need to provide an obituary notice to you for my recounted experience too?
Sorry people, that pushes a major button for me.
You’ve patronised him and now you smugly patronise me for fairly calling you on doing that.
You really are a sad little creature.
Kim, as a Green (non-Queensland) I certainly feel some concerns about our only MP in a large state being anti-abortion. However, I’m holding my fire until I see how things pan out. I don’t think it matters all that much what Lee himself thinks (after all its not like the numbers for an abortion vote shifted when he changed parties).
The issue would be if he was able to shift Greens policy – something I can’t see happen – or create an anti-abortion grouping within the Greens. If that were to happen I’d be very, very concerned, but I think its unlikely. It’s going to take him at least a year to get his head around the party, let alone start changing it, even if that was his top priority, and I see no evidence it is.
As for the suggestion that he could end up as the Queensland Greens Senator, well that strikes me as unlikely as well. If Larissa runs for preselection she won’t need to run, she’ll walk it in whether Lee stands or not, so he’s either got to hope she doesn’t stand, or weight five years for another chance.
There’s a danger that Lee’s arrival will end up creating so much internal conflict the Qld Greens would be better off without him, but that will depend more on his personal style and behaviour than any specific views he might have.
weight = wait obviously.
Post 200:
GregM:
I’m a million miles away from smug, if smug is being pleased with oneself.
And you’re right, you do make me sad.
You win.
“I hadn’t thought of it before, but Greens supporters on the internet do seem to show a remarkable Party discipline, far more than you get from the majors or even the Democrats back-in-the-day.”
That is an interesting observation and I reckon consensus decision making plays a big part in it. In my experience in Qld and nationally it’s really unusual and usually regrettable if things to come to a vote. We’re not perfect and all sorts of stupid shit goes down, but I always come home from Greens meetings feeling better than when I went in, even when I’m disappointed in details about the outcomes. That’s easy for me to say, I guess, as someone who’s found some ’sucess’ in the party, but I think we do share a sense of being ‘all in this together’.
d
Danny, I shouldn’t do this because it’s a meta-narrative, which under LP rules is not accceptable.
However I will do so because there is an important point to make.
I don’t know David Gibson from a bar of soap. Neither do you, as you have made clear.
however when he gave a perfectly reasonable explanation for his absence from Parliament, on the death of his father-in-law you spent eleven paragraphs trashing him.
Then when I called you on that you brought up that when you were twenty-one years old your lecturer doubted your absence from class when you produced the obituary of your sister, which you hadn’t previously disclosed and which we have every right to treat with the same scepticism as you have treated David Gibson’s story.
David Gibson,who i don’t know from a bar of soap,deserves better than the way you have treated him. We all do.
Since when is a tortured, verbose, downright embarrassing, but sincere, mea culpa ‘trashing’? I think you’ve got this one well wrong, GregM.
BBB
Darryl:
This is not an RFC.
It will be, as they say, interesting now that there is a Green with a voice in the house. Everything that Green says is, describes, effectively, the green position, I guess the literal meaning of de facto.
For instance this ethanol bill. It’s not just an ethanol bill, though it’s being debated as such, from what I’ve read so far. It’s the Liquid Fuel Supply (Ethanol) Amendment Bill, and it’s being presented as an amendment to an existing act. That’s one of the Govt’s objections to it, they want it to have an act of its own, which means way later, if ever.
Thing is, this existing act , the LIQUID FUEL SUPPLY ACT 1984, was as Minsister Boyle says “intended to be used in emergency situations where there is a shortage of fuel. This has never occurred and the legislation has never been used.”
The act is under the jurisdiction of Minister for Mines and Energy, currently Geoff Wilson. So, this bill the Greens are supporting, is constituted with emergency powers, such as
, and that minister’s usual community of interest is the mining industry.
What does it mean for
A fast-track to a green light? Is that the sort of thing the Greens are in favor of supporting, delivery of such environmentally compromised projects to the minister whose lobby will be mostly populated by the mining industry, and with emergency powers to call on if he/they want to?
I’m not convinced that’s what the LNP are meaning to do, it might go under the heading of unintended consequences, they have form for that, see prelude to heiner enquiry. I’m no expert, but just on the grounds of ministerial reponsibilities, whatever is done with ethanol should be under Suatainability, Climate change and Innovation surely.
This bill the Greens are supporting doesn’t do that.
Discuss among yourselves.
BBB: taa, all I know is I got back from hospital, the thread had stalled for 6 hours, stuck at Mr Gibson’s letter, and it had my name on it, so I figured it “my awkward duty”. It hurt me more than it hurt you.
As you can see from above, I still think there’s work for us to do to sort this new Green minister, and when I say us I mean it’s in everyone that breathes oxygen’s interest. Those that breath CO2 too, even though open cut coal mines are good for whatever trees are left. Extremophiles can go look after themselves.
There’s evidence that at least one member of the house visits here, one who has a role to play in the environment, maybe others do to. If they do and we make the right occult incantations we might slowly as Kev memorably said “mess with their mind”, but in a good way.
There’s a precedent now where the greens and the LNP are almost sorta working together, at least supporting the same bill. I know it’s a mutant thought, but imagine if the pineapples were greened, went conservationist more than conservative. It could be the ticket out of the wilderness, for both parties.
But educating parliamentarians about stuff that matters is not really the LP raison d’etre is it, it’s just such a dashed excellently varied bunch of meatware.
I think that environmental politics in Queensland just got a bit murkier as a report in today’s Australian seems to suggest some sort of a misunderstanding between the Wilderness society and Cape York traditional owners over lack of consultation.
[THE Wilderness Society has been forced into an embarrassing backdown, withdrawing a motion to a global conservation summit calling for Cape York to be World Heritage-listed following the objections of traditional owners.
The environmental group had planned to ask a meeting of the International Union for the Conservation of Nature in Spain next week to support a resolution nominating the Cape York Peninsula for heritage listing. But Wilderness Society campaign manager Tim Seelig said talks should now be held involving the Queensland and federal governments, conservation groups and indigenous leaders.
"Any misunderstanding about our intentions with the resolution is regretted as the Wilderness Society believes consultation and the consent of traditional owners on any World Heritage nomination is non-negotiable," he said.
"Any future World Heritage nomination can only happen, and will only happen, with the support of traditional owners."]
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24473600-5006786,00.html
“I think that environmental politics in Queensland just got a bit murkier as a report in today’s Australian seems to suggest some sort of a misunderstanding between the Wilderness society and Cape York traditional owners over lack of consultation.”
The Wilderness Society and some Indigenous groups have been stoushing for years over Cape York and the Wild Rivers Act. If memory serves the Cape York Land Council says protection effects their Native Title Rights byt restricting their ability to construct buildingd, exploint natural resources and use the land for economic purposes. But the Carpentaria LC supports Wild Rivers. Or that’s how it was last time I checked
d
Re: Steve’s story at 208 and
Further to markup of contents of Ronan the Green’s wallet:
Item: Ronan’s Wilderness Society Card
Recent Spottings in The Wild: (from his facebook wall, about a month ago)
The context is of course that a keystone of Ronan’s Green Branding is his very public enthusiasm for, and long term to the point of fair dinkumness, work on the Wild Rivers Legislation.
Thus back in July that alternate record of notice, which rivals hansard in usefullness, facebook, tells us Ronan was
Any chance you reckon Ronan boiled the billy with Bob while he was down there? One Wild River worked a treat for Dr. Bob in his career, think what a bunch of them might do for Ronan.
Thus a cuppla weeks ago his facebook tells us: “Ronan is going to Cape York to visit some wilderness rivers tomorrow” and 4 days later “Ronan is back from Cape York and glad none of the saltys got him despite the tinny hitting a sandbar”
Now what’s the chance the topic of the imminent putting forward of Cape York for World Heritage Listing, per Steve’s above copy, didn’t come up, that the Wilderness Society’s Tom Seelig, from the above story, and Ronan didn’t tea up?
If you click through and read Steve’s link, you’ll see that the go-to, or call-up, person from the ‘outraged’ cape york aboriginal groups was Gerhardt Pearson. That’s Noel’s brother.
This didn’t all just happen yesterday, or in recent months. Back in June 2006 f’rinstance, then Acting Premier Anna Bligh announced she wanted to delay a decision to protect four rivers in the Gulf of Carpentaria, that she would take to cabinet a 6-12 mth moritorium, ( on the wild rivers legislation), submission, in line with AgForce’s ( rural industry lobby group ) wishes.
Thus back then the Wilderness society, among others, had grounds for saying
It wasn’t just the
whitebreadsourdough environmental constituency feeling betrayed by the back-pedalling. From the same link,Naturally, with big buck$, power, position and prestige at stake, there were other voices:
However
So it’s far from being, as they say, black and white.
Re: the original subject of this somewhat tearaway thread, i.e. Ronan’s defection on the basis of being terminally let down by the Bligh Gov’t on environmental issues, and closing the circle:
Anna’s response on Monday, after being presented with a fait accompli, was a bit coy along the lines of
Well, from the above 2006 article, when then acting premier Bligh moved to shut down the wild rivers legislation for the agforce and mining and Pearson push, Ronan Lee spoke up and somewhat diplomatically, considering it was his boss he was fingering
.
So for Anna to indulge in sophistry that it’s just about the first she’s heard of it, it really is stretching it.
And the mirror image is: Ronan may actually be fair dinkum, not just all of a sudden flying a Green bumper sticker of career convenience as some would have you believe.
It’s possible he’s both, danny. I never get why people seem to think that others should be judged by whether they act for altruistic or other-directed interests or in self-interest, when in fact we all know that we ourselves do both. You’re nuts (or a saint) if you don’t take your own self-interest into account. The trick is to make it match up with altruistic interests.
Btw, my interpretation of Bligh’s comments was that Lee had been flagging his concerns through the press but not putting them to her personally.
“Opposition natural resources spokesman Jeff Seeney said the laws should be scrapped. (he) tabled a speech by Cape York Peninsula leader Noel Pearson who said he feared the laws would leave indigenous people to die on welfare”
Unfortunately Seeney did say that but more unfortunately for whoever quoted that, neither Seeney nor Pearson were talking about Wild Rivers on 13/05/08 when their comments were made. It was another issue and Bill altogether.
Mark: as Ms Cat might say: Word.
And the specific word in this case is : just
…as in
where I was attempting to use it as a conjunction, or maybe a contingency, where A and B can both be true.
I’ll buy your Bligh line, but I still say it’s sophistry, just another sort. I reckon she’s ace at it.
I see Toadshow have disappered him from their queenslandlaborteam.com showcase, but if you’re quick, you can still grab a copy from when he used to be a true believer in Teh Firm from Google’s cache.
He’s still got his own ronanleemp.com Toadshow page, which he works pretty hard by the looks. It has a caveat on it “NOT PRODUCED USING TAXPAYER FUNDS. ” but it doesn’t say “NOT PRODUCED USING ALP.Inc FUNDS.” We’ll know he’s really gone and dusted if and when Jones has to cut him loose from the coldfusion mothership.
While you’re here, if you are, thanks for setting up this thread, and letting it run. Into the 200’s comments, who said LP had gone soft on realpolitik? Speaking of which, we had an LNP member of the house in here, albeit under most unfortunate circumstance, so in case you ever wondered if your blog ever gets read in high to semi-high office, now you know. You never know it could be the buzz of the cafeteria: “these blogger guys know when we take days off, and read hansard, and the bills. You should read what they say about you”. As if.
If Ronan Himself partakes of the autogoogle cordial, he too will find this nearish the top.I assume he will read it. Why does his onlineopinion page top it? Crikey’s stuff I can see why.
Steve: Good catch. Wow, that’s a shocker.
In case anyone who didn’t follow up the link might think I was selectively quoting to create an unwarranted impression, I here paste the entire article, which ran under the title “Protection Promise Broken”.
Steven Wardill and Brian Williams
June 16, 2006 11:00pm
Steve, when you say “But the Carpentaria LC supports Wild Rivers. Or that’s how it was last time I checked”, is that based on the same sort of disinformation? And that’s not the same, or even in the ballpark, as
Carpentaria LC supports world heritage status attempt, or is it?Quelle mess.
Steve, when you say “But the Carpentaria LC supports Wild Rivers. Or that’s how it was last time I checked”
Not guilty, danny, that was Darryl Rosin’s work.
Ronan is going to introduce a couple of Private Members Bills though apparently.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queensland/rogue-ronan-to-challenge-bligh-on-mining-policy/2008/10/10/1223145602984.html
I’ve got no idea what you’re talking about Danny. I was just saying that a stoush between the CYLC the Wilderness Soc isn’t anything new, and that different land Councils have different views about what’s appropriate Environmental protection. The politics in the top end have always been difficult.
d
Steve: Pardon. Taa for link. How do private members bill’s relate to party platforms? This is just Ronan, not Ronan the Green?
There’s a bit in the linked text which suggests a very dry sense of humour:
“It allows the government to get things out of the Cabinet room”
An episode of the Hollow Men had the Rob Sitch character showing some very bright high school students around parliament, and they were in the cabinet room, when a staffer wheels this trolley of documents in, and out.
Sitch says “tell the kids what you’re doing here”
she says, “no it doesn’t matter”
sitch says ” no go on” and she eventually says
“I take documents into the cabinet room so they can be classified as cabinet documents, and exempt from Freedom of Information discovery”
(Sic).
Did my earlier comment today get deleted or did it stuff up in getting submitted?
David, I hope it wasn’t the Liberal National Party’s fully costed tree clearing policy that vanished into the ether. I have never seen one of those but I suppose you have been Shadow Minister for the Environment so long now that it would be a pretty polished piece of policy by now.
Speaking of vanishing into the ether:
Readers may have picked up on the fact that I’m dead set against the idea of allowing yet another frickin coal mine, an open cut one at that, which exploits a crappy low grade ore body which really should be left in the ground, and is going to be a Blight on the land and people-scape of the Felton Valley, on the Downs, all being done under the spurious mantle of a being called a clean coal project, like the incantation is going to make it so, when it’s really just an old fashioned (dimethyl) ether factory, a mini Bhopal waiting to happen. The process, which doesn’t appear to be rocket science with great intellectual property opportunity, will produce 3tonnes CO2 per 1itre fuel, apparently.
It’s a frickin shale deposit, as in what there is suppose t
And igt’s a
“Ambre Energy’s proposed development at Felton, 30 km SW of Toowoomba, on the Darling Downs. This proposal includes a 12 million tonne/year open-cut coal mine, and a petrochemical plant to convert the coal into liquid fuel.
This project would devastate one of this country’s most beautiful & fertile valleys, contaminate underground aquifers, pollute the Murray Darling river system, destroy nationally significant populations of rare & endangered species, and produce huge quantities of Greenhouse gases.
Friends of Felton call for the Felton project to be included in the shale oil ban on the following grounds -
1. The coal-to-liquids process at Felton is very similar to the process planned for the Whitsundays.
2. Shale has been identified in the resource at Felton ( Ambre Energy IAS 15 Feb 2008, pp 10-11).
3. The Whitsundays project threatened the Barrier Reef, the Felton project threatens the Murray Darling Basin.
4. Both projects would emit huge amounts of CO2 – at Felton, Ambre Energy themselves say 3t CO2 per 1t fuel.
5. The technology involved in both projects is equally unproven.
Speaking of vanishing into the ether:
Readers may have picked up on the fact that I’m dead set against the idea of allowing yet another frickin coal mine, an open cut one at that, which exploits a crappy low grade ore body which really should be left in the ground, and is going to be a Blight on the land and people-scape of the Felton Valley, on the Downs, all being done under the spurious mantle of a being called a clean coal project, like the incantation is going to make it so, when it’s really just an old fashioned (dimethyl) ether factory, a mini Bhopal waiting to happen. The process, which doesn’t appear to be rocket science with great intellectual property opportunity, will produce 3tonnes CO2 per 1itre fuel, apparently.
It’s a frickin shale deposit, as in what there is suppose t
And igt’s a
“Ambre Energy’s proposed development at Felton, 30 km SW of Toowoomba, on the Darling Downs. This proposal includes a 12 million tonne/year open-cut coal mine, and a petrochemical plant to convert the coal into liquid fuel.
This project would devastate one of this country’s most beautiful & fertile valleys, contaminate underground aquifers, pollute the Murray Darling river system, destroy nationally significant populations of rare & endangered species, and produce huge quantities of Greenhouse gases.
Friends of Felton call for the Felton project to be included in the shale oil ban on the following grounds -
1. The coal-to-liquids process at Felton is very similar to the process planned for the Whitsundays.
2. Shale has been identified in the resource at Felton ( Ambre Energy IAS 15 Feb 2008, pp 10-11).
3. The Whitsundays project threatened the Barrier Reef, the Felton project threatens the Murray Darling Basin.
4. Both projects would emit huge amounts of CO2 – at Felton, Ambre Energy themselves say 3t CO2 per 1t fuel.
5. The technology involved in both projects is equally unproven.
(it escaped on me)
FFS, It’s a frickin shale deposit, as in what there is supposed a moritorium on, on the basis of, they are bad bad things.
How come these guys haven’t been told No thanks Not Now, and maybe Never? If ether from shale while creating environmental havoc is the answer, the wrong question is being asked.
What’s the LNP position on Ambre’s cynically and misleadingly named Felton Clean Coal Project, Mr Gibson? Cut your environmental credential losses, and can it, is my suggestion. It’s not like you want a seat on the board or anything.
Danny, I wouldn’t get too hopeful about the Shadow Minister actually answering questions about the environment, he seems a bit jetlagged from his latest taxpayer funded trip to New york, Washinton and Salt Lake City.
I’m sure he is more capable of answering questions on the environmental problems in the US than in Queensland as that seems to be where his main interest lies.
I’m not sure that Springborg is aware when Shadow Minister Gibson is in Parliament after The leader’s effort on Tuesday morning when he could have added that the Shadow Minister is absent but with good reason.
“Mr SPRINGBORG
(Southern Downs–LNP) (Leader of the Opposition)
(9.35 am): I wish to advise the House of changes to opposition appointments. The member for Toowoomba South, Mike Horan, is appointed shadow attorney-general, shadow minister for justice and racing and shadow minister for open government. The member for Darling Downs, Ray Hopper, is appointed shadow minister for food security and agriculture, including fisheries and biosecurity. The member for Hinchinbrook, Andrew Cripps, is appointed shadow minister for natural resources and water, including the water grid. The member for Gregory, Vaughan Johnson, adds sport to his existing portfolio and becomes shadow minister for police and corrections and shadow minister for sport. The member for Surfers Paradise, John Paul Langbroek, becomes Leader of Opposition Business in addition to his existing shadow ministerial responsibilities for education, skills and the arts.”
I think that the next time I go overseas, I might adopt this travel plan as my own. It sounds like fun.
http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/view/legislativeAssembly/tableOffice/documents/TabledPapers/2008/5208T4005.pdf
The”Ärt of Political Campaigning” conferference would really have given the Queensland taxpayer some value for money. Here we have the Shadow Minister trotting of to a big Republican Party talkfest to see what the taxpayer needs to know about getting the member for Gympie re elected. Warning large file, a biggie but a goody.
http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/view/legislativeAssembly/tableOffice/documents/TabledPapers/2008/5208T4006.pdf
The longest running union picket in the history of Queensland occurred the second last time the Liberal National Party was in power. It lasted nonstop for years.
It was the Utah Development Company coalmines that were the heart of that dispute and now the Liberal National Party have put up a Shadow Minister for the Environment so steeped in Utah history as to be offensive to anybody with any inkling of the not so distant past.
I actually popped into David Gibson’s Gympie office without an appointment to see him just shy of a year ago and the staff in his office told me he was on holidays in Utah.
It would indeed be interesting to see what his attitude to coal mining might be. I have never seen anything in hansard about coalmining from the Shadow Minister that I can recall.
It doesn’t say on his “Big Love” tour itinerary whether, how many times, who for, and why he visited 1245 Brickyard Road, Suite 90, Salt Lake City UT 84106.
That’s the registered office of the Utah arm of Ambre energy.
They also have an office in eagle street brisbane. That’s because “in May 2008 it was reported that Ambre Energy’s core drilling program on its EPC 1076 (That’s felton valley to you and me) resulted in a 400mt coal deposit being identified.” They need somewhere in the city to co-ordinate brown paper bag logistics.
Surely as shadow environment spokesperson, a company that has plans to dig a bloody big ugly hole in a very nice and useful bit of queensland, he will have been interested and asked for a heads-up. Maybe, in passing like, mention was made of “Oh you’re going to Utah, we have people in utah, here’s their address, why don’t you pop in an say hello during the entire week you’re there? There’s not that much to do in Salt lake City, but you really should visit the set of polygamists’r'us, that TV show that was to Salty what The Soprano’s was to New Jersey. You might pick up some ideas for sustainable housing design too, the way the Bill’s 3 wives’ 3 houses’ design features encouraged sharing. If you do visit our office there, just tell ‘em the clean brown paper bag project is going quite nicely thanks. They’ll know what you mean”
A nice old political wedge if ever I heard of one.So the Liberal National Party’s stuck between supporting farmers and the mining companies.Looks like the farmers will be dumped as the miners takeover their land.
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2008/s2292659.htm
http://www.climatechange.gov.au/greenpaper/consultation/pubs/0563-ambre-energy-limited.pdf
Oh Dear, not the old David Gibson sunspots causes global warming:
No discussion of clean coal technology is complete without including the issue of greenhouse gases. The correlation between CO2 and global warming is in dispute. We have arguments on both sides of the case, and there are some scientific records that show the warming occurs first and then follows the increase in CO2. Let me be clear that I am not a climate change sceptic. I have no doubt that the planet is
warming and our climate patterns are shifting. I am also of the view that man-made pollution from all sources has a detrimental impact upon the global environment, and we have a responsibility to do all we can to minimise the impacts of pollution while balancing the demands of development. However, I am yet to be convinced that global warming is purely a result of increases in CO2. It appears to me that we must also include as an associated reason for global warming the increase in sunspot activity that is associated with increased cosmic radiation, which in turn has caused increased cloud cover. There is scientific evidence that sunspot activity and changes in cloud cover are much more strongly correlated with global
warming than changes in CO2.
http://parlinfo.parliament.qld.gov.au/isysquery/41335521-41a7-444d-9729-89ef1b8cc334/1/doc/David%20Gibson%20spk%20Gympie%202007_06_08_65.pdf#xml=http://parlinfo.parliament.qld.gov.au/isysquery/41335521-41a7-444d-9729-89ef1b8cc334/1/hilite/
Dear Ronan, and David:
Don’t just take it from us, ask MIKE HORAN MP, Member for Toowoomba South, Shadow Minister for Sport & Racing, Shadow Minister for Food Security & Agriculture (Including Fisheries & Biosecurity), he’s onto it, being as he is, close to the electoral ground zero. From a reply he made to an octagenarian constituent’s enquiry about it, editted, full text here
From same reference:
Stuart Copeland asked this question to the Mines and Energy Minister on 28 August 2008.
[Shale Oil Mining
Mr COPELAND: My question is to the Minister for Mines and Energy. On Monday an officer from
the minister’s department advised a representative of the Friends of Felton group that the Premier’s
announcement on shale oil would mean a two-year suspension of all similar projects while a report was
prepared for cabinet. He was advised this would include the proposed development at Felton. So that
the landholders of the Felton Valley who are affected by this project know what is going on and so the
company that has put forward the proposal also knows what is going on, can the minister advise the
House if Amber Mining will have to stop all work for two years? Is Amber allowed to submit an initial
advice statement? Will it be able to apply for a mining lease? Will it be able to proceed with an
environmental impact study during that period?
Mr WILSON: I thank the honourable member for the question. The assertion that is the basis of
the member’s question is wrong. The 20-year moratorium was announced on the shale oil reserve at
Proserpine.
Mr Copeland: A two-year suspension, Minister, they were told.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! Member for Cunningham, you have asked the question. It is being
answered by the minister.
Mr WILSON: I repeat, the assertion upon which the member bases his question is wrong. The
moratorium for 20 years is on the shale oil reserve at Proserpine. There is then a limited permission
granted for the small-scale demonstration plant at Gladstone and after two years there will be an
independent scientific review of the social, community, environmental and economic impact of that trial.
In relation to shale oil across Queensland, exploration will continue, but there will be no new
entitlements granted until after the two-year review that I have just spoken about. This decision in
relation to shale oil is a decision in relation to shale oil. There were 1,349 exploration tenures granted in
Queensland in 2006-07—double what there was before—and many other mining tenures have been
granted. They will continue to go through the normal processes that apply. We are dealing with
Proserpine and a resource that is unique to the environment of Queensland.
What is really interesting, though, about the fact that the member asked this question is that the
Leader of the Opposition is strangely silent about shale oil and Proserpine. Unfortunately, the shadow
minister for mines and energy is not in the House at the moment. He tippy-toed around the question of
whether you support or oppose the moratorium at Proserpine.
Mr Copeland interjected.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! Member for Cunningham, you have asked the question. I would like you to
listen to the answer.
Mr WILSON: The member would not say. The Leader of the Opposition, who normally has an
opinion on everything and a solution for nothing, is afraid to speak. He has no voice on this issue. His
silence is deafening on the issue of whether he supports a moratorium at Proserpine. The Leader of the
Opposition holds a position of high public office. He claims to be the alternative Premier. The people of
Proserpine are entitled to know where he stands. Is he opposed to the moratorium or is he in support of
it? They are entitled to know where he stands, because if they know where he stands they can hold him
accountable. That is why the public is entitled to know where he stands on this issue.]
Ray Hopper, the Member for Darling Downs wrote an interesting article in the Highfields Village Herald on Tuesday August 5. He claims there is a 2000km seam of coal running just west of the Great Dividing Range and the miners can go somewhere else and mine some other part of the coal seam.
http://www.highfieldsvillage.com.au/_literature/Tuesday_5_August_2008
Well that cleared it up fpr the people of Felton.
No noises from Ronan the Green, on this issue?
You lads should get a room.
Awh you guys make me feel so welcome I can hardly believe I hadn’t found this place sooner!
Ok lets respond working up the list.
Re Felton. And lets not just stop there, lets include Kunioon Valley and the Mary Valley while we are at it. My personal view is that we should protect good productive agricultural land from being lost to either coal mines or irrational dams!
Re CC. I’m also worried about the impact of rotting vegetation producing methane gas from a large shallow dam that the ALP seem fixated with up in my part of the world. What I am saying is we need to be willing to factor in all componets in the solution.
Re the visit to the US. Best check your facts first. it wasn’t a republican but a bipartisan conference and each session had presenters from the democrats as well as the GOP. BTW the ALP had a presenter from QLD who had been a staffer in the Beattie/Bligh Govt giving the Americans a few tips at the same conference.
Yes I visited Utah and got the same tour that Wanye Swan and every other Australian politican has had from the LDS Church when they visited this state. (I’ll ignore the other cheap slurs about my faith)
I missed out on visiting your coal mining mates but I did spend time looking over the Utah State University $60 mil project on biofuels from algae. I also did speak to probably one of the most progressive republican governors on environemntal issues, and a lets not forget NYC.
Steve funny if you visited my office just over a year ago because 2008 was my first visit to Utah. Maybe you got confused! But do feel free to drop by again anytime you in town.
On Tree Clearing you’re a bit behind the times or you must only be doing a selective reading of Hansard. So let me bring you up to date – Hansard of Thursday, 28 August 2008
Re Springborg not advising the Parliament – Standing orders doesn’t permit it unless it is an extended absence.
Re the apology. Accepted
Re not knowing me from a bar of soap. I’m devestated! Lets make the effort to get to know each other a bit better. Feel free to email me at gympie@parliament.qld.gov.au if you have questions or want me to respond to a comment at any time.
Also have a look at http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=po6v-WZ1J70 to get a feel for my views on enviromental issues.
Ciao
Oops I forget one.
Re Costed policies – absolutely. It aint easy without the resources of Government but then it aint easy being green!
And Yes virginia there really is a Santa Clause and I really am David Gibson and not some agent.
David Gibson – who do you think you are kidding re: land clearing? Paint yourself national party green all you like; the fact is unless you pander to farmers, rednecks and religious wingnuts you will lose your seat to an even more populist neo-fascist candidate or an ex-National party “independent”. Either way as land clearing demonstrates you stand for nothing and will be no loss. ciao.
Mr. Gibson, or is that Mr. Hon. Gibson …. Good to see you back here, a glutton for the proverbial I take it. You should have picked up your complementary grains of salt on the way in.
I’ve got a few household family chores to take care of, like cooking up a mess of Slow Fried Low Grade Coal with a Di Methyl Ether sauce. We get it at a quaint little ex-farmer’s market on the Downs, place called Felton. It’s the signature dish of a quaint little pub up there, the Poisoned Water-hole and Soil.
While I’m doing that, maybe you could get on the partyline, and find out when it was that Agforce, and the EPA folks, got deployed as the Bunnies for US coal, what sort of
chain of commandcluster leads from them to Mines and Energy?You’ll be at the felton heads-up won’t you?
Danny,
We should share receipes. We have some tasty little dishes up my way thanks to Anna and her mates.
Baked Lungfish, served on a rotting methane producing vegetation is a Beattie/Bligh favourite. As entree there is always frickaseed giant barred tree frog legs – a real delicacy, or you can just get the endangered seafood platter with fried mary river cod, crushed shell mary river turtle and
beerbattered lungfish – but you better hurry once stocks are gone this special is off the menu.Whats the date on the felton do? I’ll pack my flambe pan.
what an amazing turnout two LiberalNational Party wolves,Springborg and Gibson posing as green dyed sheep for electoral purposes.We live in interesting times.
I’m sorry but none of you on here know the true facts about the felton valley. Have any of you been out there or are you all too busy sipping on your coffees in the city nosing on in to other peoples business to care to check it out for yourselves. The felton valley is not beautiful and has not been for a long time, the farmers there have ruined the land with their farming and I woudnt swim in the creek if you paid me, its dirty and not a single tree is planted near it. This mine will bring jobs and a stronger future to the area around it but what would you people care.
Of course that Nats (and a few libs) are going green – green is the new black. Unfortunately, greenwashing in opposition ain’t going to save us – and Turnbull hasn’t yet revealed his hand.
The best we could hope for politically is a dark green opposition resonating with the electorate and pulling the Rudd government to real action on climate change rather than faffing around with lame and ineffective emissions trading scheme and unclean coal!
Currently the still get the kudos for appearing “green” – partly because half the opposition are denialists and/or delusionists.
And don’t forget Martin Ferguson and NSW Labor still want to burn old growth forests for “green energy” – which will be another crime of the century if it happens.
Larry stand aside. The LiberalNational Party is coming out there to save Felton. I have had my coffee drinking interrupted by Springborg, Horan, Hopper, Copeland and Gibson who are continually making speeches and writing articles about their green credentials which will help them win the next election.
The whole situation is starting to look like the “koala road” part 2.
At least as far as the environment is concerned, the Liberal Nationals under Springborg have given up some of their more harsh edged climate denial rhetoric and replaced it with soothing talk of renewable energy excellence etc.
Now they are trying to enmesh themselves with the Greens.
The centre ground is now being occupied by the LiberalNationalParty who could be seen as closest to the Greens and will be demanding a preference swap with each other at the next election.
Now it is becoming obvious why the swing to the left by the LiberalNational Party is starting to erode the vote of the Government.It does however leave them open to their position being stolen back by the Government or an attack from the right in the form of conservative independents.
A terrible thing has just happened. Any chance the high price/diminishing supplies of oil was gonna work to make renewable fuels and possibly green cars of any sort a go-er in mass terms probably just dissapeared.
Linc just turned on the tap of their demonstration coal to diesel plant at Chinchilla. First they “burn” the coal underground to gasify it.
The thing is, they reckon the operating cost will be $US28 a barrel, so there is so much money to be made, the chance of pulling it up on the basis of greenhouse gases, and maybe threats to the Great Artesian Basin, would be minimal, there’s fortunes, and royalties to be made.
A lincenergy document says “The project at Chinchilla is only one of 14 coal tenements secured by Linc across Queensland for potential diesel production.”
Linn has all but sold ( there are a couple of days left till the (very quiet) due diligence process by state and federal goverments to OK it are in) its Bowen Basin tenements in Queensland to China’s Xinwen Mining Group for $1.5 billion, and signed a deal with them to develop underground coal gasification (UCG) and gas to liquids (GTL) projects in China.
What’s the bet in the fullness of time China doesn’t buy LINC or somehow else start going hell for leather producing cheap and profitable diesel here.
It’s be great if either of the non-treasury bench environmental shadows cold throw a spanner in the due diligence works and get a better result for the planet, but the nats are bankrolled by Palmer coal-money, so David Gibson is not likely to speak up, regardless of his algae-based green oil interest, and the gov’t has the numbers, and are shameless.
Ronan won’t be across it either, it’s all been very quitely shepherded through.
Future generations, if you are reading this, sorry. There is so much coal out there, and now it can be used that much more, and there’s huge margins in it for the producers, and they just don’t care, and no-one in government will do anythying about it.
Newsflash: China’s hard-ass horse trading may buy us some time yet for so-called green MPs, of whatever shade and brand, to ask a few questions of the Foreign Investment Review board who have the power to get a better deal for the planet on this:
“A senior official from China’s Xinwen Mining has denied a report that the deal between the company and Linc Energy, an Australian coal liquefaction company, on buying mining right will be wrapped up within this year as claimed by a senior official of Linc Energy.
Peter Bond, CEO of Linc Energy, told a reporter in an exclusive interview Tuesday their 1.5 billion Australian-dollar deal with Xinwen Mining on coal mine exploration right was about to be accomplished by the end of this week.
The Xinwen Mining source disclaimed the report. He said besides a frame agreement, their negotiation had not come to any details yet, including the quotation by the Australian side.
In September, Xinwen Mining signed an agreement with Linc Energy to buy a portion of the exploration right of Theresa coal mine in Bowen Basin, Queensland.
Insiders hold that the focus of their negotiation is the high quote by Linc Energy. The price offer is 1.5 billion AUD, or around 8 billion yuan. Comparing to the low domestic price and its low percentage in overall development cost, it would be wiser to make domestic investment, even the mining right included. ”
The “domestic” there means china: Linc’s playing several cards at once, one being a demo of crappy coal to diesel, at a small fraction of the price of oil-derived diesel, “so they say”, and damn the greenhouse gases, and great artesian basin security, they’re dealing that in China, so now china can go: Who needs their expensive coal, we can use our crappy coal, and Linc has shown ‘em how, and are willing partners, but they are really just retailing Russian technology, and will probably be shafted, or bought out, by China. (And hasn’t Russia been a shining light of environmental responsibility, poisoning one of the world’s biggest freshwater reserves, Lake Baikal to the point of species extinction, etc.? We worry about the Mary River, lake Baikal has 20% of the world’s fresh water, and they f’d that up)
Of course we’ll buy in, or sell in: our treasury’s broke after all, and the hospitals’ are stuffed, what infrastructure etc, what choice do we have, says Anna and Greg.
David Gibson and Ronan Lee, if your autogoogling finds this, the potted money story is here, from 5 weeks ago, . Note, it’s on Wayne Swan’s desk, and of course he’s been distracted, it’s a perfect storm of bad governence really. ther are a few days left but, and maybe you two, and your organisations, can put the frighteners on Labor about grabbing queensland by forming a dark green alliance. Sure, the Nats and coal have much DNA in common via Joh and Palmer, but how does the “selling Queensland off to China” play with the overall Nats rural constituency? Mining isn’t really that good for country towns generally, quite the opposite, just pushing up prices and creating a local working poor compared to the miners.
Gotta go, it’s all a bit rushed but I hope you can get the signal through the noise: these developments have huge and bad implications for Greenhouse gas production, when China grabs it, via Qld and autralia’s regulatory regime, or lack therof. HTF Linc can be called a “clean fuel producer” has got me beat, I don’t see any plausible let alone real CO2 sequestration plans.
Earlier background for rushed green, or GHG-aware at least, Queensland MP’s:
August 9
The Advice from the Office of the Minister for Mines and Energy, was
Note the word production. That sort of political sophistry allows them to avoid making decisions based on principle, absolutely gutless.
Unfortunately there are a lot of moneyed people out there for whom the world is a simple place with just potential investments, and treehuggers getting in the way. Such as superannuation funds etc..
We are in a pickle.
Unfortunately we have pushed climate change too far now. Technologies like UCG are actually a step in the right direction, It reduces carbon emmissions from coal. It enables carbon sequestration, its cheap, so it helps our economy, and it reduces the risk of contaminating land on the surface. UCG is an interum solution and it must be utilised i nthe short to medium turn considering the state of the world economy. Conventional mining of coal should be banned.
David and Ronan, if your short of time, just please read the quoted bit from the coal company themselves, ( Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme Green Paper Submission By Michael van Baarle, Director Business Development, Ambre Energy Limited) where they admit the geosequestration ( which their claim for being clean rests on) is porkies.
John: Waddaya mean it enables carbon sequestration? That’s like saying eating rancid food enables vomitting. Please demonstrate where the carbon emissions are reduced with this technology, in the absence of the as yet unavailable sequestration implementation, on the China scale we are talking here.
From an Ambre ( who want to do coal to fule in felton, a coal champion, but almost honest) corporate document:
For “much confidence”, read “desparate yearnings”
I certainly wouldn’t want to live on top of one of these CO2 timebombs if it should ever go off, even if it was really a go-er to do in the first place, not just a bit of hand waving in a prospectus.
There’s a lake somewhere in africa where a natural CO2 resevoir burped and it killed I dunno how many folks for I dunno how many miles around. It’s like saying the house is clean by sweeping prawn shells under the carpet.
I’m no expert but, and correct me if I’m wrong, but coal is pretty much carbon about as dense as it can get. As each carbon atom becomes CO2, adds 2 oxygens, it must get bigger. Even if you could make the CO2 as dense as the coal from whence it came, it has to be a bigger in aggregate. That’s if you could make high temeprature solid co2. It just can’t fit back down the hole from which it was dug, the idea is not sustainable.
The opportunity cost of devoting huge resources into the fantasy which defies first principles might build a few careers and speculator fortunes and create a lot of column inches, but it would be better spent on solutions that weren’t predicated on geologic yesterdays’ fixed sunshine, but today’s and tomorrow’s.
Coal mining should be phased out. New mines should be not allowed.
I dunno about considering the state of the world economy as a justification, but the state of the queensland economy i see: broke, gutless and clueless, all it’s eggs in one black basket. It used to have the great barrier reef as a drawcard, but unless there’s a market for Big Mistakes as a perverse attraction, dead coral covered in the slime resulting from excess nutrient runoff of agriculture is unlikely to be a basis for a future tourism industry.
Now if we were growing algae purposively, with multiple growth and reproduction control features genetically engineered in, that massively fixed Co2, used saline waters, scavanged those fugitive nutrients, and fed into a process like the LS9 one, with green diesel as the output, that sort of industry I could get behind. We got the sunshine.
Course, some eggs are gonna have to get broken for this custard, and some local ecology would be sadly trashed, but as i say it would be local, not like the global enviro-pox uber-coal will inevitably create.
My vote is the Gulf of Saint Vincent, or is it spencer Gulf, whichever has Kangaroo Isalnd in it’s mouth. Adelaide’s on it’s last legs anyway waterwise, just leave a skeleton crew.Sometimes at semaphore the natural seaweed load was pretty whiffy anyway, it’s not like the phenomonon was new there. Lake Eyre is below sea level, maybe we could just back fill it with sea water and inoculate. Plenty of sun out there, and all those dead birds as a nitrogen source, she’d go gangbusters, .
Or Moreton Bay.
But most likely China will put their hand up to be the Arabs of Green Oil industry. Remember the algal bloom at Qingdao for weeks before the olympics that almost shut the sailing down? Like that. Too easy.
Three paragraph rule.
Reductions in carbon emmissions are as follows:
No need to dig coal out of the ground, (Huge amounts of fuel is used)
No need to transport coal to its destination. (huge amounts of fuel used)
No need to dig up massive holes in the ground and cover them over again. (Huge amounts of fuel is used)
Less carbon is emited from the process, and alot less sulfur
No need to despose of the toxic slag from the coal gasification process, and keeps out of harms way.
Less methane is emitted into the atmosphere as the coal is being dug up and transported.
Unfortunately we are heavily reliant on coal at the moment. And yes we should reduce our reliance on all carbon fuels. But realistically in this economy, we need to rely on coal still, and we should consider using this resource more efficiently. Carbon credits are a great idea, but Ultimately we still need technologies like UCG. Technologies like UCG should replace conventional coal producing facilities. Its tested, it works, we should use everything in our power to try to reduce carbon emmissions. Everything! And get ourselves seperated by the control of OPEC.
Who knows going forward, technologies could be created to turn CO2 into rocks(Solids) which would make this technology a contributer to the building industry as well. UCG at present has the potential to produce Fuels/Raw energy/Plastics/Fertilisers.
Cheers.
OK that’s it. I’m bored as helll and I’m not going to take it any more.
If this thread doesn’t die a natural death I’m going to start tearing it up with youtube, cheese and innuendo.
*THERE WILL BE NO SECOND WARNING*
I say take it away, Dark One.
I’m more of a greys bloke myself, FDB. But I don’t mind hot pink every now and again either.
You should know I’m mostly encouraging you in honour of an upcoming youtube VJ ‘contest’. And trying for some reason to remember all the clips I used to see on Chilean MTV in 1996.
Wait, I know why. It’s Chile beating Argentina for the first time in 30-something years.
Anyway, no segue for me.
Segue? Is that some kind of dairy product?
Feyeraband.