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	<title>Comments on: Interactive transport plans</title>
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	<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/</link>
	<description>Blogging politics, culture, sociology and life from Brisvegas</description>
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		<title>By: TimT</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/comment-page-2/#comment-529210</link>
		<dc:creator>TimT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 21:14:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/#comment-529210</guid>
		<description>Thanks anyway Robert - I was just &lt;a href=&quot;http://deggles.csoft.net&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;linking to Russ&#039;s blog&lt;/a&gt;, who has a recent post referring to bicycles/buses/trains. He&#039;s an urban planner, so he&#039;d make an excellent addition to the conversation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks anyway Robert &#8211; I was just <a href="http://deggles.csoft.net" rel="nofollow">linking to Russ&#8217;s blog</a>, who has a recent post referring to bicycles/buses/trains. He&#8217;s an urban planner, so he&#8217;d make an excellent addition to the conversation.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Merkel</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/comment-page-2/#comment-529191</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Merkel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 20:27:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/#comment-529191</guid>
		<description>Tim: if it&#039;s not up now, it&#039;s gone; the spam bucket has been overflowing lately so it&#039;s possible that we just plain missed it in the noise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim: if it&#8217;s not up now, it&#8217;s gone; the spam bucket has been overflowing lately so it&#8217;s possible that we just plain missed it in the noise.</p>
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		<title>By: TimT</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/comment-page-2/#comment-528851</link>
		<dc:creator>TimT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 06:40:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/#comment-528851</guid>
		<description>Bugger, my previous comment has been spam-binned - Robert, can you release it please?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bugger, my previous comment has been spam-binned &#8211; Robert, can you release it please?</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Merkel</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/comment-page-2/#comment-528765</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Merkel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 04:51:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/#comment-528765</guid>
		<description>The trains are usable, but not the best, Tim.  They only run every 20 minutes except during the morning and evening peaks, and they take this annoying detour through North Melbourne which, importantly, means you can&#039;t conveniently get to Melbourne University or the Royal Melbourne Hospital via the train.  

This could be fixed in a number of ways; the cheapest would probably be to replace the heavy rail on the Upfield line, with light rail, and redirect the last past of the trip along Royal Parade (have a look at Google Maps).  The more elaborate fix, as proposed by the Greens plan, is to put in a north-south rail tunnel with a station at Melbourne University, with the tunnel continuing to connect Melbourne Central, and Flinders Street.

As far as cycling goes, personally I don&#039;t find it too bad.  The traffic is so slow along Sydney Road most of the time, it&#039;s not a hassle.  And, as mentioned, there are a number of alternative routes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The trains are usable, but not the best, Tim.  They only run every 20 minutes except during the morning and evening peaks, and they take this annoying detour through North Melbourne which, importantly, means you can&#8217;t conveniently get to Melbourne University or the Royal Melbourne Hospital via the train.  </p>
<p>This could be fixed in a number of ways; the cheapest would probably be to replace the heavy rail on the Upfield line, with light rail, and redirect the last past of the trip along Royal Parade (have a look at Google Maps).  The more elaborate fix, as proposed by the Greens plan, is to put in a north-south rail tunnel with a station at Melbourne University, with the tunnel continuing to connect Melbourne Central, and Flinders Street.</p>
<p>As far as cycling goes, personally I don&#8217;t find it too bad.  The traffic is so slow along Sydney Road most of the time, it&#8217;s not a hassle.  And, as mentioned, there are a number of alternative routes.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Hollo</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/comment-page-2/#comment-528670</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Hollo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 02:10:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/#comment-528670</guid>
		<description>FXH, I&#039;m not a local, I admit, but I&#039;ve spent a fair bit of time in the area over many years of visiting your fair city. Now, I ride to and from work every day in Canberra, but there&#039;s no bloody way you&#039;d catch me taking my life in my hands to ride down Sydney Road!

Interesting point about the trains, Robert. I wasn&#039;t aware of that. But what are the services like? Convenient? Frequent? Clean? Enough space?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FXH, I&#8217;m not a local, I admit, but I&#8217;ve spent a fair bit of time in the area over many years of visiting your fair city. Now, I ride to and from work every day in Canberra, but there&#8217;s no bloody way you&#8217;d catch me taking my life in my hands to ride down Sydney Road!</p>
<p>Interesting point about the trains, Robert. I wasn&#8217;t aware of that. But what are the services like? Convenient? Frequent? Clean? Enough space?</p>
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		<title>By: Francis Xavier Holden</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/comment-page-2/#comment-528236</link>
		<dc:creator>Francis Xavier Holden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 10:05:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/#comment-528236</guid>
		<description>Merkel @69 and you forgot to add that it&#039;s all bloody flat as a pancake for bike riding and basically inner city. So why all the cars?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Merkel @69 and you forgot to add that it&#8217;s all bloody flat as a pancake for bike riding and basically inner city. So why all the cars?</p>
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		<title>By: TimT</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/comment-page-2/#comment-528079</link>
		<dc:creator>TimT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 04:45:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/#comment-528079</guid>
		<description>Speaking of &#039;substantial influx of extra passengers&#039;... I remember catching the No. 19 tram up Sydney Road during the Commonwealth Games. In off-peak times, two or three stops from the Elizabeth/Flinders Street terminus, the tram was packed to the gills. Tim Hollo may have a point!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking of &#8217;substantial influx of extra passengers&#8217;&#8230; I remember catching the No. 19 tram up Sydney Road during the Commonwealth Games. In off-peak times, two or three stops from the Elizabeth/Flinders Street terminus, the tram was packed to the gills. Tim Hollo may have a point!</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Merkel</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/comment-page-2/#comment-528069</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Merkel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 04:30:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/#comment-528069</guid>
		<description>Tim: again, I think I might pull the &quot;I&#039;m a local&quot; stunt here.

Sydney road has trains 100 metres from most of its length, trams running up it every 10, a mostly off-road cycle path along the train line.  There are bike lanes on just about every cross-street, too, and cross-city buses.

The alternatives are more satisfactory in this particular area than just about anywhere else in Melbourne.  Frankly, it&#039;s got me buggered why anybody bothers to drive on Sydney Road at all; it&#039;s almost always quicker to head across to Lygon Street and go round.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim: again, I think I might pull the &#8220;I&#8217;m a local&#8221; stunt here.</p>
<p>Sydney road has trains 100 metres from most of its length, trams running up it every 10, a mostly off-road cycle path along the train line.  There are bike lanes on just about every cross-street, too, and cross-city buses.</p>
<p>The alternatives are more satisfactory in this particular area than just about anywhere else in Melbourne.  Frankly, it&#8217;s got me buggered why anybody bothers to drive on Sydney Road at all; it&#8217;s almost always quicker to head across to Lygon Street and go round.</p>
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		<title>By: wilful</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/comment-page-2/#comment-527921</link>
		<dc:creator>wilful</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 01:27:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/#comment-527921</guid>
		<description>Small bit of good news – more trains at peak times, including on my benighted Sydenham line. http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-election-2008/melbourne-trains-get-peakhour-boost-20081009-4x2v.html hey check that address – silly the Age.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Small bit of good news – more trains at peak times, including on my benighted Sydenham line. <a href="http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-election-2008/melbourne-trains-get-peakhour-boost-20081009-4x2v.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-election-2008/melbourne-trains-get-peakhour-boost-20081009-4&#215;2v.html</a> hey check that address – silly the Age.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Hollo</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/comment-page-2/#comment-527899</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Hollo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 01:07:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/#comment-527899</guid>
		<description>Robert:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;The best solution for congestion on Sydney Road is of course road pricing.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Actually, that&#039;s not the case. Road pricing, just like taxing the carbon content of fuel, can only go so far if the alternatives are not widely, cheaply and conveniently available. Unless and until Melbourne&#039;s public transport, cycling and pedestrian infrastructure is upgraded to the point where it can easily accommodate a very substantial influx of extra passengers, the only impact of road pricing will be greater inequity and more pissed off Melburnians.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;The best solution for congestion on Sydney Road is of course road pricing.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Actually, that&#8217;s not the case. Road pricing, just like taxing the carbon content of fuel, can only go so far if the alternatives are not widely, cheaply and conveniently available. Unless and until Melbourne&#8217;s public transport, cycling and pedestrian infrastructure is upgraded to the point where it can easily accommodate a very substantial influx of extra passengers, the only impact of road pricing will be greater inequity and more pissed off Melburnians.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Posters</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/comment-page-2/#comment-527405</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Posters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 09:50:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/#comment-527405</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Buses, by contrast, can stop at the side of the road, letting traffic past on the right. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Not on Sydney Rd they can&#039;t. It&#039;s too narrow.

And as you point out, people like trams more than buses, anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Buses, by contrast, can stop at the side of the road, letting traffic past on the right. </p></blockquote>
<p>Not on Sydney Rd they can&#8217;t. It&#8217;s too narrow.</p>
<p>And as you point out, people like trams more than buses, anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Anderson</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/comment-page-2/#comment-527340</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 07:51:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/#comment-527340</guid>
		<description>Robert: If we want to chest thump about how often we travel down Sydney Road, well I usually catch the tram twice a day... :-)

Sydney Road is however a gordian knot.  If I knew how to cut through it I would, but alas I do not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert: If we want to chest thump about how often we travel down Sydney Road, well I usually catch the tram twice a day&#8230; <img src='http://larvatusprodeo.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Sydney Road is however a gordian knot.  If I knew how to cut through it I would, but alas I do not.</p>
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		<title>By: wizofaus</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/comment-page-2/#comment-527228</link>
		<dc:creator>wizofaus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 04:44:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/#comment-527228</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d also say, part of the bus vs tram equation has to be customer preference.  If a significant number of customers who currently take trams would object to using buses, they may well use their cars instead, which would increase congestion.  But I&#039;m not sure how you&#039;d accurately guage the likelihood of that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d also say, part of the bus vs tram equation has to be customer preference.  If a significant number of customers who currently take trams would object to using buses, they may well use their cars instead, which would increase congestion.  But I&#8217;m not sure how you&#8217;d accurately guage the likelihood of that.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Merkel</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/comment-page-2/#comment-527227</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Merkel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 04:44:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/#comment-527227</guid>
		<description>The best solution for congestion on Sydney Road is of course road pricing.

I notice that not even the Greens are prepared to grab that particular hot wire, and Labor runs away in fright at the wrath of the Herald-Sun at the very thought :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The best solution for congestion on Sydney Road is of course road pricing.</p>
<p>I notice that not even the Greens are prepared to grab that particular hot wire, and Labor runs away in fright at the wrath of the Herald-Sun at the very thought <img src='http://larvatusprodeo.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: wizofaus</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/comment-page-2/#comment-527224</link>
		<dc:creator>wizofaus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 04:41:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/#comment-527224</guid>
		<description>Well of course trams are a &quot;cause&quot; of congestion - anything on the road, including your own vehicle, contributes towards it.
All that needs to be determined is which makes the most sense to get rid of.  If there really is plenty of unused off-street parking in the vicinity, then stricter parking restrictions seems the obvious first choice, given the small costs of introducing such would very quickly repay themselves (in better traffic flow and increased parking fines and/or fees).  The other options are initially expensive and non-revenue generating, with the benefits primarily going to private commuters along the route.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well of course trams are a &#8220;cause&#8221; of congestion &#8211; anything on the road, including your own vehicle, contributes towards it.<br />
All that needs to be determined is which makes the most sense to get rid of.  If there really is plenty of unused off-street parking in the vicinity, then stricter parking restrictions seems the obvious first choice, given the small costs of introducing such would very quickly repay themselves (in better traffic flow and increased parking fines and/or fees).  The other options are initially expensive and non-revenue generating, with the benefits primarily going to private commuters along the route.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Merkel</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/comment-page-2/#comment-527211</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Merkel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 04:25:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/#comment-527211</guid>
		<description>Chris: I travel down Sydney Road.  A lot.  I accept that my proposal for buses may not work.  But to claim that trams stopping at intersections doesn&#039;t slow down Sydney Road traffic just flat contradicts my own personal experience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris: I travel down Sydney Road.  A lot.  I accept that my proposal for buses may not work.  But to claim that trams stopping at intersections doesn&#8217;t slow down Sydney Road traffic just flat contradicts my own personal experience.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Anderson</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/comment-page-2/#comment-527200</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 04:12:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/#comment-527200</guid>
		<description>There is plenty of parking behind Sydney Road - its just that no one uses it.

Some reality needs to be injected here.  Trams don&#039;t cause congestion.  Cars do.  parked cars, cars turning right, cars doing silly things.  The ideas that buses would make things better is just, in my opinion, plain silly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is plenty of parking behind Sydney Road &#8211; its just that no one uses it.</p>
<p>Some reality needs to be injected here.  Trams don&#8217;t cause congestion.  Cars do.  parked cars, cars turning right, cars doing silly things.  The ideas that buses would make things better is just, in my opinion, plain silly.</p>
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		<title>By: MsLaurie</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/comment-page-2/#comment-527142</link>
		<dc:creator>MsLaurie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 02:57:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/#comment-527142</guid>
		<description>Clearly, we do need parking on Sydney Road and Bridge Road - but build it behind the shops. Paralel parking next to Tram lines is just stupid, for cars, trams, people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clearly, we do need parking on Sydney Road and Bridge Road &#8211; but build it behind the shops. Paralel parking next to Tram lines is just stupid, for cars, trams, people.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Merkel</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/comment-page-2/#comment-527131</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Merkel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 02:46:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/#comment-527131</guid>
		<description>wiz: Sydney Road is the perfect storm - it&#039;s narrow, heavily trafficked all day every day, and has a lane of parking.

There&#039;s not enough room to put in tram stops with barriers in the center of the road to let cars pass while a tram is stopped.  Therefore, the cars have to stop every time a tram does.  

Buses, by contrast, can stop at the side of the road, letting traffic past on the right.  

As far as buses go, as well as hybridizing them, a key technology for reducing their emissions to switch away from diesel and run them on CNG or LPG.

Another option is the trolleybus, which might work quite well on Sydney Road where there&#039;s already overhead tram lines.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>wiz: Sydney Road is the perfect storm &#8211; it&#8217;s narrow, heavily trafficked all day every day, and has a lane of parking.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s not enough room to put in tram stops with barriers in the center of the road to let cars pass while a tram is stopped.  Therefore, the cars have to stop every time a tram does.  </p>
<p>Buses, by contrast, can stop at the side of the road, letting traffic past on the right.  </p>
<p>As far as buses go, as well as hybridizing them, a key technology for reducing their emissions to switch away from diesel and run them on CNG or LPG.</p>
<p>Another option is the trolleybus, which might work quite well on Sydney Road where there&#8217;s already overhead tram lines.</p>
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		<title>By: wizofaus</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/comment-page-2/#comment-527125</link>
		<dc:creator>wizofaus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 02:38:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/07/interactive-transport-plans/#comment-527125</guid>
		<description>danny - nice find...did you use a search engine that OCRs images? ;-)

Robert - how would buses on Sydney Rd cause less noticeably congestion than trams?

wilful - of course, Sydney Rd shopkeepers are hardly likely to be a different breed to Bridge Rd shopkeepers.  But a government committed to working out the whole city&#039;s transport difficulties should be able to do better than to fold to that sort of pressure, unless a highly convincing case can be made that the loss of business along that stretch of road would cost more than the economic benefits to the whole state from allowing traffic to run smoothly along Sydney Rd.  By all means, pay them some sort of compensation if necessary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>danny &#8211; nice find&#8230;did you use a search engine that OCRs images? <img src='http://larvatusprodeo.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Robert &#8211; how would buses on Sydney Rd cause less noticeably congestion than trams?</p>
<p>wilful &#8211; of course, Sydney Rd shopkeepers are hardly likely to be a different breed to Bridge Rd shopkeepers.  But a government committed to working out the whole city&#8217;s transport difficulties should be able to do better than to fold to that sort of pressure, unless a highly convincing case can be made that the loss of business along that stretch of road would cost more than the economic benefits to the whole state from allowing traffic to run smoothly along Sydney Rd.  By all means, pay them some sort of compensation if necessary.</p>
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