Comments on: The growth of The Greens: Two hypotheses http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/20/the-growth-of-the-greens-two-hypotheses/ Life, Culture and Politics from BrisVegas Tue, 14 Feb 2012 07:44:05 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3 By: Sacha http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/20/the-growth-of-the-greens-two-hypotheses/#comment-211961 Sacha Sun, 26 Oct 2008 12:06:57 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/20/the-growth-of-the-greens-two-hypotheses/#comment-211961 I suggest that the seriousness of the ability of a party to form a government (whether at a council or state/federal) level will change the attitudes to it - the motivvation to vote for the Greens will be different where there is a bipolar ALP/Coalition political environment vs a multi-polar environment. I suggest that the seriousness of the ability of a party to form a government (whether at a council or state/federal) level will change the attitudes to it – the motivvation to vote for the Greens will be different where there is a bipolar ALP/Coalition political environment vs a multi-polar environment.

]]> By: danny http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/20/the-growth-of-the-greens-two-hypotheses/#comment-211960 danny Sun, 26 Oct 2008 08:20:54 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/20/the-growth-of-the-greens-two-hypotheses/#comment-211960 Cheers Wiz. Actually what I'd like to find out is how much it cost, and what sort of area is needed, for that small town size installation. They say it's a 5megawatt plant for the 3500 homes, which sounds a bit conservative cf average Australian usage , but in the ballpark. Renewable Energy Development Initiative (REDI) grant records show that <a href="http://technologyaustralia.com/newsletters/march2008.htm" rel="nofollow"> Solar Heat & Power Pty Ltd</a>, (Ausra predecessor, essentially same collector technology) installation at Liddell is rated similarly 5MW, and they got ~$3.25 million, so that presumably gives the order of investment necessary. So that's 3.5 mill-ish for 3,500 homes, more than 1 Kw per home, for ~$1000 per home. Well within the bounds of the $8K per 1 KW rebate we have. Like really within, almost an order difference. So if individuals were able to put their rebate towards these utility scale installations, we'd be getting a lot more bang for the rebate buck. Sound right? Cheers Wiz. Actually what I’d like to find out is how much it cost, and what sort of area is needed, for that small town size installation.
They say it’s a 5megawatt plant for the 3500 homes, which sounds a bit conservative cf average Australian usage , but in the ballpark. Renewable Energy Development Initiative (REDI) grant records show that Solar Heat & Power Pty Ltd, (Ausra predecessor, essentially same collector technology) installation at Liddell is rated similarly 5MW, and they got ~$3.25 million, so that presumably gives the order of investment necessary. So that’s 3.5 mill-ish for 3,500 homes, more than 1 Kw per home, for ~$1000 per home. Well within the bounds of the $8K per 1 KW rebate we have. Like really within, almost an order difference. So if individuals were able to put their rebate towards these utility scale installations, we’d be getting a lot more bang for the rebate buck. Sound right?

]]> By: wizofaus http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/20/the-growth-of-the-greens-two-hypotheses/#comment-211959 wizofaus Sun, 26 Oct 2008 02:34:10 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/20/the-growth-of-the-greens-two-hypotheses/#comment-211959 danny, that article is not even close to the mark in claiming that a 5MW is the biggest CSP plant in the US - bigger ones were built back in the 80's (and are still in use), and the biggest single one I think is Nevada Solar One at 64MW (there are two even bigger ones in I think Spain and Israel). They could've said it's the biggest in the world using flat mirrors though. danny, that article is not even close to the mark in claiming that a 5MW is the biggest CSP plant in the US – bigger ones were built back in the 80′s (and are still in use), and the biggest single one I think is Nevada Solar One at 64MW (there are two even bigger ones in I think Spain and Israel). They could’ve said it’s the biggest in the world using flat mirrors though.

]]> By: joe2 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/20/the-growth-of-the-greens-two-hypotheses/#comment-211958 joe2 Sat, 25 Oct 2008 09:04:39 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/20/the-growth-of-the-greens-two-hypotheses/#comment-211958 That is great news Lefty E. Some clever person, whose name I cannot remember, alerted us all here to this possibilty, very early in the piece. They may have been regarded as rather over optimistic, if I recall correctly. That is great news Lefty E.
Some clever person, whose name I cannot remember, alerted us all here to this possibilty, very early in the piece. They may have been regarded as rather over optimistic, if I recall correctly.

]]> By: Lefty E http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/20/the-growth-of-the-greens-two-hypotheses/#comment-211957 Lefty E Sat, 25 Oct 2008 08:49:15 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/20/the-growth-of-the-greens-two-hypotheses/#comment-211957 Result confirmed! ALP 7, Libs 6, Green 4. Welcome the third major, folks. Result confirmed! ALP 7, Libs 6, Green 4.
Welcome the third major, folks.

]]> By: Lefty E http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/20/the-growth-of-the-greens-two-hypotheses/#comment-211956 Lefty E Sat, 25 Oct 2008 06:18:16 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/20/the-growth-of-the-greens-two-hypotheses/#comment-211956 Great link Danny. I remember him leaving to California. Look at the scoreboard, 'coal sequestration'. Great link Danny. I remember him leaving to California.
Look at the scoreboard, ‘coal sequestration’.

]]> By: danny http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/20/the-growth-of-the-greens-two-hypotheses/#comment-211955 danny Sat, 25 Oct 2008 03:52:11 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/20/the-growth-of-the-greens-two-hypotheses/#comment-211955 Savour the moment LE, I suppose 2 votes over le Couteur is looking gooder than 2 votes under. Go you good things. ACT will be first Carbon Neutral jurisdiction perhaps? Maybe via <a href="http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/local/news/general/australian-shines-in-solar-explosion/1343260.aspx" rel="nofollow">a few acres of regular sunshine </a> like now powers 3500 homes in ArnieFornia, at around 10 cents per kilowatt-hour, built in only 7 months by Ausra, a company established last year by former University of Sydney solar research pioneer Professor David Mills who left Australia after failing to attract support from the Howard government for his world-first solar thermal technology. They've got a contract for supplying 120,000 more homes. How many homes in ACT? Savour the moment LE, I suppose 2 votes over le Couteur is looking gooder than 2 votes under. Go you good things.
ACT will be first Carbon Neutral jurisdiction perhaps? Maybe via a few acres of regular sunshine like now powers 3500 homes in ArnieFornia, at around 10 cents per kilowatt-hour, built in only 7 months by Ausra, a company established last year by former University of Sydney solar research pioneer Professor David Mills who left Australia after failing to attract support from the Howard government for his world-first solar thermal technology. They’ve got a contract for supplying 120,000 more homes.
How many homes in ACT?

]]> By: Lefty E http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/20/the-growth-of-the-greens-two-hypotheses/#comment-211954 Lefty E Sat, 25 Oct 2008 03:11:51 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/20/the-growth-of-the-greens-two-hypotheses/#comment-211954 Latest ACT count has Greens looking good to take 4th seat, from the Libs. This is a fantastic result, and will put the Greens in government!! (probably with support from another party called the "ALP"). :) But seriously - first Green Ministers likely here. Huzzah! And best of all, the LIBS actually went backward in this election. Lost a seat!! HAHAHAH!! In this climate at state/territory level! What an indictment. Latest ACT count has Greens looking good to take 4th seat, from the Libs.

This is a fantastic result, and will put the Greens in government!! (probably with support from another party called the “ALP”). :)

But seriously – first Green Ministers likely here. Huzzah! And best of all, the LIBS actually went backward in this election. Lost a seat!! HAHAHAH!! In this climate at state/territory level! What an indictment.

]]> By: danny http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/20/the-growth-of-the-greens-two-hypotheses/#comment-211953 danny Fri, 24 Oct 2008 17:35:59 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/20/the-growth-of-the-greens-two-hypotheses/#comment-211953 Ben: How long can ron boswell stay around? After all he's 68, he isn't part of the future. Taking your point: See above reference to Gympie Nat, though perhaps more immediate environmentalism, ie the Mary River. He could and should be pressed on CC. What I was thinking about was more the Nats rural constituency, agricultural communities, and the shifts in consciousness there, which the mp's will have to pick up on to survive. Obviously it's all been given a hurry on by "the drought". Or is it "the new climate", there's the rub. May I respectfully suggest you don't just read press releases, read what the constituents read, the rural press, like "The Land" masthead, you'll see stories like <a href="http://theland.farmonline.com.au/news/nationalrural/agribusiness-and-general/general/farmers-versus-mining-on-the-darling-downs/84068.aspx" rel="nofollow"> Farmers versus mining on the Darling Downs </a>" pop up, and there you'll see grassroots (ptp) activity leading pollies by their electoral survival nose: <blockquote>'...local district producer, president of the newly-formed Environment and Property Protection Association..calling for the Qld Government to investigate the likely impact the mining company's extraction and storage process will have on the surrounding water table, also for the environmental well-being of the upper Murray-Darling Basin...Over the next 10 years, full production from the area's gas fields, resulting in up to 60 gigalitres of saline water - containing 200,000 tonnes of residual salt - will be extracted, he says..Plus, we are concerned about the effects on the deep aquifers and have questions about farm damage and a range of other issues including security, (economic) viability, quality of life and property valuation...We have to be a strong group about the issue Mr Derrick says. Member for Darling Downs, Ray Hopper, says he wants the Qld Minister for Sustainability, Climate Change and Innovation, Andrew McNamara, to tour the district ("free of advisors and glossy literature") to better understand events unfolding on-the-ground. It's big business riding roughshod over our producers - it's simply unacceptable the way things are happening." BTW there's been a redistribution on the downs, nats seat disappearing, new one created, so its up for grabs </blockquote> The Greens could do far worse, if they haven't, than to notice that there has been a widely and enthusiastically supported rural, (that is in often national electorates), organisation called Landcare that's been banging on about catchments and conservation and sustainable agriculture for 20 years or so. They are making the rubber meet the road with "Landcare CarbonSMART®.. Australia’s leading not-for-profit carbon trading organisation". They've managed the rednecks meet hippies thing, with both National Farmers' Federation and the Australian Conservation Foundation on board. I note from their FAQ: "Landcare Australia also receives assistance from the NSW, WA and Victorian Governments" No Beattie/Bligh $$? I'm perfectly aware they have "issues", I just think it could and should be a fruitful area for the Greens, to move beyond the latte issues beltway. Will the Greens for instance have someone at the November 3 – ‘Mining Land Access Information Road Show’ at the Felton Hall, in a Nat electorate, ground zero for the battle where the coal industry gets legitimised because it can now directly be made there into a car fuel, in this case dimethyl methane. Which if you think about it is a very scary prospect GHG wise, coal enabling cars. And there's worse: up in Emerald theres a pilot plant for coal-> diesel via burning the coal underground. So it's like, diesel in, diesel out, for less per barrel than via oil. Ben: How long can ron boswell stay around? After all he’s 68, he isn’t part of the future. Taking your point: See above reference to Gympie Nat, though perhaps more immediate environmentalism, ie the Mary River. He could and should be pressed on CC.
What I was thinking about was more the Nats rural constituency, agricultural communities, and the shifts in consciousness there, which the mp’s will have to pick up on to survive. Obviously it’s all been given a hurry on by “the drought”. Or is it “the new climate”, there’s the rub. May I respectfully suggest you don’t just read press releases, read what the constituents read, the rural press, like “The Land” masthead, you’ll see stories like Farmers versus mining on the Darling Downs ” pop up, and there you’ll see grassroots (ptp) activity leading pollies by their electoral survival nose:

‘…local district producer, president of the newly-formed Environment and Property Protection Association..calling for the Qld Government to investigate the likely impact the mining company’s extraction and storage process will have on the surrounding water table, also for the environmental well-being of the upper Murray-Darling Basin…Over the next 10 years, full production from the area’s gas fields, resulting in up to 60 gigalitres of saline water – containing 200,000 tonnes of residual salt – will be extracted, he says..Plus, we are concerned about the effects on the deep aquifers and have questions about farm damage and a range of other issues including security, (economic) viability, quality of life and property valuation…We have to be a strong group about the issue Mr Derrick says.

Member for Darling Downs, Ray Hopper, says he wants the Qld Minister for Sustainability, Climate Change and Innovation, Andrew McNamara, to tour the district (“free of advisors and glossy literature”) to better understand events unfolding on-the-ground. It’s big business riding roughshod over our producers – it’s simply unacceptable the way things are happening.” BTW there’s been a redistribution on the downs, nats seat disappearing, new one created, so its up for grabs

The Greens could do far worse, if they haven’t, than to notice that there has been a widely and enthusiastically supported rural, (that is in often national electorates), organisation called Landcare that’s been banging on about catchments and conservation and sustainable agriculture for 20 years or so. They are making the rubber meet the road with “Landcare CarbonSMART®.. Australia’s leading not-for-profit carbon trading organisation”. They’ve managed the rednecks meet hippies thing, with both National Farmers’ Federation and the Australian Conservation Foundation on board. I note from their FAQ: “Landcare Australia also receives assistance from the NSW, WA and Victorian Governments” No Beattie/Bligh $$?
I’m perfectly aware they have “issues”, I just think it could and should be a fruitful area for the Greens, to move beyond the latte issues beltway. Will the Greens for instance have someone at the November 3 – ‘Mining Land Access Information Road Show’ at the Felton Hall, in a Nat electorate, ground zero for the battle where the coal industry gets legitimised because it can now directly be made there into a car fuel, in this case dimethyl methane. Which if you think about it is a very scary prospect GHG wise, coal enabling cars. And there’s worse: up in Emerald theres a pilot plant for coal-> diesel via burning the coal underground. So it’s like, diesel in, diesel out, for less per barrel than via oil.

]]> By: Ben Raue http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/20/the-growth-of-the-greens-two-hypotheses/#comment-211952 Ben Raue Fri, 24 Oct 2008 12:43:36 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/10/20/the-growth-of-the-greens-two-hypotheses/#comment-211952 Who are these Nats who are enlightened on climate change? I plough through piles of media releases from National Party federal MPs (Ron Boswell is the worst) who seem on the verge of being complete climate skeptics. Who are these Nats who are enlightened on climate change? I plough through piles of media releases from National Party federal MPs (Ron Boswell is the worst) who seem on the verge of being complete climate skeptics.

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