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	<title>Comments on: Yet another geoengineering proposal</title>
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	<description>Life, Culture and Politics from BrisVegas</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 06:22:48 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: danny</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/12/yet-another-geoengineering-proposal/#comment-205227</link>
		<dc:creator>danny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:43:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/12/yet-another-geoengineering-proposal/#comment-205227</guid>
		<description>The &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.epa.qld.gov.au/publications/p02740aa.pdf/Review_of_the_Fitzroy_River_Water_Quality_Issues_/_prepared_by_Professor_Barry_Hart_for_the_Queensland_Premier.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Review of the Fitzroy River Water Quality &lt;strike&gt;or lack thereof&lt;/strike&gt; Issues / prepared by Professor Barry Hart for the Queensland Premier &lt;/a&gt; is out.
It gives the gov&#039;t the quote it needed - &quot;no serious health effects&quot; - per the terms of reference, noting &quot;there are a number of other issues relating to coal mining in the Fitzroy Catchment&quot; which were off-limits to the report.
Re: &#039;unserious&#039; effects, the report acknowledges, coyly, &quot;it is possible that the poor quality water did increase the effects of a viral gastroenteritis outbreak&quot;; &quot;increased salinity and sodium concentrations in Rockhampton’s drinking water supply... concentrations are likely to increase further during November (and even December...If Rockhampton’s water supply decreases further in quality, problems are also expected at the Rockhampton Hospital and its Dialysis Clinics and Home Dialysis service.There is a real possibility that blue-green algal blooms will occur&quot;
Re: ecologic damage - &quot;.. insuffucient information, insufficient information, insufficient information... The response of relevant Government agencies to assessing the possible impacts of the mine affected water on the riverine biota has been tardy to say the least&quot;. Someone saw some sick catfish somewhere.
It&#039;s not just the farmers who are pissed off: the report notes, bluntly &quot; ... a cynical community view .. that the Government is waiting for the wet season rains to ‘solve’ the problem, and that nothing will be learned from this issue to change Government response processes.&quot; The EPA gets a bit of a caning, and the elephant  is sensibly observed ie &quot;the desire by Ensham and Government to get the mine back into productions as rapidly as possible&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The <a href="http://www.epa.qld.gov.au/publications/p02740aa.pdf/Review_of_the_Fitzroy_River_Water_Quality_Issues_/_prepared_by_Professor_Barry_Hart_for_the_Queensland_Premier.pdf" rel="nofollow">Review of the Fitzroy River Water Quality <strike>or lack thereof</strike> Issues / prepared by Professor Barry Hart for the Queensland Premier </a> is out.<br />
It gives the gov&#8217;t the quote it needed &#8211; &#8220;no serious health effects&#8221; &#8211; per the terms of reference, noting &#8220;there are a number of other issues relating to coal mining in the Fitzroy Catchment&#8221; which were off-limits to the report.<br />
Re: &#8216;unserious&#8217; effects, the report acknowledges, coyly, &#8220;it is possible that the poor quality water did increase the effects of a viral gastroenteritis outbreak&#8221;; &#8220;increased salinity and sodium concentrations in Rockhampton’s drinking water supply&#8230; concentrations are likely to increase further during November (and even December&#8230;If Rockhampton’s water supply decreases further in quality, problems are also expected at the Rockhampton Hospital and its Dialysis Clinics and Home Dialysis service.There is a real possibility that blue-green algal blooms will occur&#8221;<br />
Re: ecologic damage &#8211; &#8220;.. insuffucient information, insufficient information, insufficient information&#8230; The response of relevant Government agencies to assessing the possible impacts of the mine affected water on the riverine biota has been tardy to say the least&#8221;. Someone saw some sick catfish somewhere.<br />
It&#8217;s not just the farmers who are pissed off: the report notes, bluntly &#8221; &#8230; a cynical community view .. that the Government is waiting for the wet season rains to ‘solve’ the problem, and that nothing will be learned from this issue to change Government response processes.&#8221; The EPA gets a bit of a caning, and the elephant  is sensibly observed ie &#8220;the desire by Ensham and Government to get the mine back into productions as rapidly as possible&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/12/yet-another-geoengineering-proposal/#comment-205226</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 13:18:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/12/yet-another-geoengineering-proposal/#comment-205226</guid>
		<description>danny @ 13, my brother grows beef in the area and the farmers are pretty pissed off about always being blamed for polluting the rivers when they see what&#039;s happening with coal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>danny @ 13, my brother grows beef in the area and the farmers are pretty pissed off about always being blamed for polluting the rivers when they see what&#8217;s happening with coal.</p>
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		<title>By: steveh</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/12/yet-another-geoengineering-proposal/#comment-205225</link>
		<dc:creator>steveh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 06:28:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/12/yet-another-geoengineering-proposal/#comment-205225</guid>
		<description>Robert,
   I&#039;m wondering more about the possible distribution by wind (having recently seen our topsoil in one of NZ&#039;s fine glaciers!).
From reading the paper I gather they&#039;re looking at coastal zones - but areas with even a low breeze could prove to be problematic given the material (100um is pretty damn fine) could end up on someones ASS (pun intended).
Thanks Grumphy - I figured some chemistry would show up somewhere with potential issues - acidity would not just be an issue for the soils but any equipment used in the process (can anyone say &quot;heavy metals&quot;).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert,<br />
   I&#8217;m wondering more about the possible distribution by wind (having recently seen our topsoil in one of NZ&#8217;s fine glaciers!).<br />
From reading the paper I gather they&#8217;re looking at coastal zones &#8211; but areas with even a low breeze could prove to be problematic given the material (100um is pretty damn fine) could end up on someones ASS (pun intended).<br />
Thanks Grumphy &#8211; I figured some chemistry would show up somewhere with potential issues &#8211; acidity would not just be an issue for the soils but any equipment used in the process (can anyone say &#8220;heavy metals&#8221;).</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas Paine</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/12/yet-another-geoengineering-proposal/#comment-205224</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Paine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 11:52:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/12/yet-another-geoengineering-proposal/#comment-205224</guid>
		<description>This was in February. Waiting for developments.

New materials can selectively capture carbon dioxide, UCLA chemists report
&quot;For each liter of ZIF, you can hold 83 liters of carbon dioxide,&quot; Banerjee said.
http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/new-materials-can-selectively-45139.aspx


The technical challenge of selectively removing carbon dioxide has been overcome. Now we have structures that can be tailored precisely to capture carbon dioxide and store it like a reservoir, as we have demonstrated. No carbon dioxide escapes. Nothing escapes—unless you want it to do so. We believe this to be a turning point in capturing carbon dioxide before it reaches the atmosphere.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/02/zifs-new-framew.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This was in February. Waiting for developments.</p>
<p>New materials can selectively capture carbon dioxide, UCLA chemists report<br />
&#8220;For each liter of ZIF, you can hold 83 liters of carbon dioxide,&#8221; Banerjee said.<br />
<a href="http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/new-materials-can-selectively-45139.aspx" rel="nofollow">http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/new-materials-can-selectively-45139.aspx</a></p>
<p>The technical challenge of selectively removing carbon dioxide has been overcome. Now we have structures that can be tailored precisely to capture carbon dioxide and store it like a reservoir, as we have demonstrated. No carbon dioxide escapes. Nothing escapes—unless you want it to do so. We believe this to be a turning point in capturing carbon dioxide before it reaches the atmosphere.<br />
<a href="http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/02/zifs-new-framew.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/02/zifs-new-framew.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: danny</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/12/yet-another-geoengineering-proposal/#comment-205223</link>
		<dc:creator>danny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 05:35:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/12/yet-another-geoengineering-proposal/#comment-205223</guid>
		<description>&lt;Blockquote&gt;If coal is mined by opencut, huge holes are left in the ground. With enough rain, these might become huge lakes, like crater lakes - quite &lt;strike&gt;toxic&lt;/strike&gt; effective dams.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Rewind back to the start of the year when Ensham Coal Mine near Emerald had 5  Sydney harbors dumped on it in 36 hours, busting the levees and doing just as you say. Lost coal production was intolerable, the EPA OK&#039;d them mega-pumping into the Nagoa River, which flows into the Fitzroy. Which they did for months until in August downstream folks pointed out their water was a bit suss. At which point Qld Health said anyone on a low sodium diet and babies should avoid it at all costs. The mine stopped pumping in Sept. Anna Bligh set up an enquiry in how f&#039;d up the Fitzroy now is, to report &lt;strike&gt;just after the next election&lt;/strike&gt; by the end of the year.
Meanwhile they were still underwater, and Qld Treasury was still needing Coal royalties, so apparently they came up with the idea of using a whole lot of clean dam water to dilute the filthy mine water down to legalistically OK average concentrations and then dump it in the river and on the land , working on the theory that the overall salt load doesn&#039;t matter. But it&#039;s not being mixed thoroughly and the hyper-salty/mineralised stuff sinks to the bottom, and gets backed up by the weirs, hanging around doing it&#039;s foul eco-destroying business.
Coal uber alles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>If coal is mined by opencut, huge holes are left in the ground. With enough rain, these might become huge lakes, like crater lakes &#8211; quite <strike>toxic</strike> effective dams.</p></blockquote>
<p>Rewind back to the start of the year when Ensham Coal Mine near Emerald had 5  Sydney harbors dumped on it in 36 hours, busting the levees and doing just as you say. Lost coal production was intolerable, the EPA OK&#8217;d them mega-pumping into the Nagoa River, which flows into the Fitzroy. Which they did for months until in August downstream folks pointed out their water was a bit suss. At which point Qld Health said anyone on a low sodium diet and babies should avoid it at all costs. The mine stopped pumping in Sept. Anna Bligh set up an enquiry in how f&#8217;d up the Fitzroy now is, to report <strike>just after the next election</strike> by the end of the year.<br />
Meanwhile they were still underwater, and Qld Treasury was still needing Coal royalties, so apparently they came up with the idea of using a whole lot of clean dam water to dilute the filthy mine water down to legalistically OK average concentrations and then dump it in the river and on the land , working on the theory that the overall salt load doesn&#8217;t matter. But it&#8217;s not being mixed thoroughly and the hyper-salty/mineralised stuff sinks to the bottom, and gets backed up by the weirs, hanging around doing it&#8217;s foul eco-destroying business.<br />
Coal uber alles.</p>
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		<title>By: Grumphy</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/12/yet-another-geoengineering-proposal/#comment-205222</link>
		<dc:creator>Grumphy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 04:27:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/12/yet-another-geoengineering-proposal/#comment-205222</guid>
		<description>*chuckle* @ #9. You&#039;d be surprised how easy it is to make, erm, filthy jokes in soil science...

DeeCee, there&#039;s a *lot* of basalt in the SEQ ranges. Even with a lot of it only being in caps in the hilltops, &#039;flattening&#039; is a bit of an overstatement. The hills aren&#039;t about to disappear even if we get really carried away. Plus, there&#039;s an active olivine mine near Armidale already.

Not that I&#039;m not concerned with a drive to mine the stuff locally, it would be bad, but lets keep it in perspective. EG of &#039;bad-enough&#039; prospective damage: There&#039;s actually a little old basalt quarry just off the road to Montville, and seeing places like that opened up to extraction again would be bad. Can&#039;t imagine what even a small extraction project there would do to the local area D:</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>*chuckle* @ #9. You&#8217;d be surprised how easy it is to make, erm, filthy jokes in soil science&#8230;</p>
<p>DeeCee, there&#8217;s a *lot* of basalt in the SEQ ranges. Even with a lot of it only being in caps in the hilltops, &#8216;flattening&#8217; is a bit of an overstatement. The hills aren&#8217;t about to disappear even if we get really carried away. Plus, there&#8217;s an active olivine mine near Armidale already.</p>
<p>Not that I&#8217;m not concerned with a drive to mine the stuff locally, it would be bad, but lets keep it in perspective. EG of &#8216;bad-enough&#8217; prospective damage: There&#8217;s actually a little old basalt quarry just off the road to Montville, and seeing places like that opened up to extraction again would be bad. Can&#8217;t imagine what even a small extraction project there would do to the local area D:</p>
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		<title>By: DeeCee</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/12/yet-another-geoengineering-proposal/#comment-205221</link>
		<dc:creator>DeeCee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 04:17:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/12/yet-another-geoengineering-proposal/#comment-205221</guid>
		<description>Robert Merkel @ 5.  I didn&#039;t say &quot;only&quot;; I said &quot;typical&quot;.  Olivine basalt is volcanic, and olivine crystals grow in holes in the basalt - I&#039;ve a nice wall of it in front, where you can actually see how olivine forms.  If you buy a load of crusher dust from an OB quarry, you/ your kids can have fun picking little crystals out of it.

Coal deposits are typically found in fairly flat (formerly marsh) land, often near old sea coasts.  If coal is mined by opencut, huge holes are left in the ground.  With enough rain, these might become  huge lakes, like crater lakes - quite effective dams.

Cut down basalt mountains for OB, and what impact does that have on rainfall &amp; creek/ river formation? For example, flatten the OB basalt deposits of SE Qld&#039;s Great Divide, and you knock out the headwaters of western creeks &amp; rivers feeding the Warrego &amp; Maranoa etc.  By removing the Escarpment&#039;s effect on rainfall that feeds rivers like the Brisbane, cities East of the Escarpment lose much of their water supply.  The two Toowoomba bluestone quarries are only on the Escarpment&#039;s dry (&quot;rainshadow&quot;)sides; but their clients were limited to the railway &amp; local roads, with stone etc available for local use.

Wizofaus @ #5  The Bridge St quarry switched from blasting to high-pressure water drilling c1982.  Blasting is cheaper, by has significant side-effects; water &quot;drilling&#039;s&quot; most significant side-effect is water usage.  I&#039;d imagine that crushing uses a great deal of power.  It, stockpiling &amp; loading also create clouds of fine gritty dust; so when the BSt operated, the crusher-loading area was constantly watered.  Had it not been closed before the current drought, it would have had to cease operations years ago.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert Merkel @ 5.  I didn&#8217;t say &#8220;only&#8221;; I said &#8220;typical&#8221;.  Olivine basalt is volcanic, and olivine crystals grow in holes in the basalt &#8211; I&#8217;ve a nice wall of it in front, where you can actually see how olivine forms.  If you buy a load of crusher dust from an OB quarry, you/ your kids can have fun picking little crystals out of it.</p>
<p>Coal deposits are typically found in fairly flat (formerly marsh) land, often near old sea coasts.  If coal is mined by opencut, huge holes are left in the ground.  With enough rain, these might become  huge lakes, like crater lakes &#8211; quite effective dams.</p>
<p>Cut down basalt mountains for OB, and what impact does that have on rainfall &amp; creek/ river formation? For example, flatten the OB basalt deposits of SE Qld&#8217;s Great Divide, and you knock out the headwaters of western creeks &amp; rivers feeding the Warrego &amp; Maranoa etc.  By removing the Escarpment&#8217;s effect on rainfall that feeds rivers like the Brisbane, cities East of the Escarpment lose much of their water supply.  The two Toowoomba bluestone quarries are only on the Escarpment&#8217;s dry (&#8220;rainshadow&#8221;)sides; but their clients were limited to the railway &amp; local roads, with stone etc available for local use.</p>
<p>Wizofaus @ #5  The Bridge St quarry switched from blasting to high-pressure water drilling c1982.  Blasting is cheaper, by has significant side-effects; water &#8220;drilling&#8217;s&#8221; most significant side-effect is water usage.  I&#8217;d imagine that crushing uses a great deal of power.  It, stockpiling &amp; loading also create clouds of fine gritty dust; so when the BSt operated, the crusher-loading area was constantly watered.  Had it not been closed before the current drought, it would have had to cease operations years ago.</p>
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		<title>By: David Irving (no relation)</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/12/yet-another-geoengineering-proposal/#comment-205220</link>
		<dc:creator>David Irving (no relation)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 04:10:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/12/yet-another-geoengineering-proposal/#comment-205220</guid>
		<description>SR, you caused me to spray coffee all over my monitor. Bastard!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SR, you caused me to spray coffee all over my monitor. Bastard!</p>
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		<title>By: David Rubie</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/12/yet-another-geoengineering-proposal/#comment-205219</link>
		<dc:creator>David Rubie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 03:54:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/12/yet-another-geoengineering-proposal/#comment-205219</guid>
		<description>Grumphy wrote:
&lt;blockquote&gt;ASS’s are a bugger to mess with &lt;/blockquote&gt;

must....  resist...  comment...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Grumphy wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>ASS’s are a bugger to mess with </p></blockquote>
<p>must&#8230;.  resist&#8230;  comment&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Grumphy</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/12/yet-another-geoengineering-proposal/#comment-205218</link>
		<dc:creator>Grumphy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 03:33:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/12/yet-another-geoengineering-proposal/#comment-205218</guid>
		<description>Hmm. The reactions are pretty unavoidable above pH 4 (all you need is Fe2+ or 3+, water, and oxygen), and more olivine would only add yet more iron, so you&#039;d probably just have to throw in a bit of lime to catch the extra acid generated by its conversion from free ions to iron hydroxides. Back to square one, d&#039;oh :P

ASS&#039;s are a bugger to mess with - there&#039;s lots of compounds that can neutralise the acidity created when they&#039;re exposed to air, but the trick lies in their solubility. The agent has to be able to sit around in the soil matrix and &#039;catch&#039; any incoming acid. If its too soluble it&#039;ll just wash away in the groundwater before that happens. The other thing is that some agents are *too* alkaline, and can raise the soil pH too high. The theoretical max pH that ag-lime can raise a soil to is only 8.2, and realistically it rarely gets soil above 6.5-7 (neutral). That&#039;s why its the most common neutraliser applied to soils - it sticks around, and can&#039;t cause too much trouble. Unfortunately, lime neutralisation releases CO2, so, problem.

Really, the ultimate solution is to stop disturbing ASS in the first place, but people will insist on their canal McMansions and marinas. *le sigh*.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm. The reactions are pretty unavoidable above pH 4 (all you need is Fe2+ or 3+, water, and oxygen), and more olivine would only add yet more iron, so you&#8217;d probably just have to throw in a bit of lime to catch the extra acid generated by its conversion from free ions to iron hydroxides. Back to square one, d&#8217;oh <img src='http://larvatusprodeo.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':P' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>ASS&#8217;s are a bugger to mess with &#8211; there&#8217;s lots of compounds that can neutralise the acidity created when they&#8217;re exposed to air, but the trick lies in their solubility. The agent has to be able to sit around in the soil matrix and &#8216;catch&#8217; any incoming acid. If its too soluble it&#8217;ll just wash away in the groundwater before that happens. The other thing is that some agents are *too* alkaline, and can raise the soil pH too high. The theoretical max pH that ag-lime can raise a soil to is only 8.2, and realistically it rarely gets soil above 6.5-7 (neutral). That&#8217;s why its the most common neutraliser applied to soils &#8211; it sticks around, and can&#8217;t cause too much trouble. Unfortunately, lime neutralisation releases CO2, so, problem.</p>
<p>Really, the ultimate solution is to stop disturbing ASS in the first place, but people will insist on their canal McMansions and marinas. *le sigh*.</p>
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