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	<title>Comments on: Expectations about unemployment</title>
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	<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/17/expectations-about-unemployment/</link>
	<description>Life, Culture and Politics from BrisVegas</description>
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		<title>By: Ambigulous</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/17/expectations-about-unemployment/#comment-206100</link>
		<dc:creator>Ambigulous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 02:14:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/17/expectations-about-unemployment/#comment-206100</guid>
		<description>Kingsley @ 10.26am on the 18th. Good point!! Are we full-timers, old-timers: smug, or what?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kingsley @ 10.26am on the 18th. Good point!! Are we full-timers, old-timers: smug, or what?</p>
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		<title>By: David Irving (no relation)</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/17/expectations-about-unemployment/#comment-206099</link>
		<dc:creator>David Irving (no relation)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 02:00:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I suspect the discrepency between the expectation that unemployemnt will rise and the expectation that we&#039;ll all keep our jobs has to do with self-perception: &quot;I&#039;m so good at my job that I&#039;m close to irreplaceable, but that no-hoping bludger two desks over is almost certain to get sacked and never work again.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suspect the discrepency between the expectation that unemployemnt will rise and the expectation that we&#8217;ll all keep our jobs has to do with self-perception: &#8220;I&#8217;m so good at my job that I&#8217;m close to irreplaceable, but that no-hoping bludger two desks over is almost certain to get sacked and never work again.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Kingsley</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/17/expectations-about-unemployment/#comment-206098</link>
		<dc:creator>Kingsley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 03:11:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Will be interesting Terry as I note that book sales went up in the retail figures released yesterday so perhaps foolishily using that as a proxy for other goods sold over internet maybe they&#039;ll do alright. On flipside my take is an awful lot of that stuff is discretionary. Further countering that though is this trend to stay at home and be enterntained there rather than &quot;out and about&quot;. As you suggest we&#039;ll have to wait for the data.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will be interesting Terry as I note that book sales went up in the retail figures released yesterday so perhaps foolishily using that as a proxy for other goods sold over internet maybe they&#8217;ll do alright. On flipside my take is an awful lot of that stuff is discretionary. Further countering that though is this trend to stay at home and be enterntained there rather than &#8220;out and about&#8221;. As you suggest we&#8217;ll have to wait for the data.</p>
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		<title>By: Terry</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/17/expectations-about-unemployment/#comment-206097</link>
		<dc:creator>Terry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 02:23:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Kingsley, I&#039;m thinking about something different to the IT sector, although they are clearly related. I&#039;m thinking about consumer preferences for buying things online, as well as subscribing to online products and services, or using online sites to buy and sell things (e.g. classifieds).

If people may need to save money, the subscription to an online multi-player game may start to look like a bit of an indulgence. At the same time, there may be greater use of online auction sites, in search of a bargain.

A lot of businesses are riding on these decisions, and there are not really historical precedents at this time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kingsley, I&#8217;m thinking about something different to the IT sector, although they are clearly related. I&#8217;m thinking about consumer preferences for buying things online, as well as subscribing to online products and services, or using online sites to buy and sell things (e.g. classifieds).</p>
<p>If people may need to save money, the subscription to an online multi-player game may start to look like a bit of an indulgence. At the same time, there may be greater use of online auction sites, in search of a bargain.</p>
<p>A lot of businesses are riding on these decisions, and there are not really historical precedents at this time.</p>
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		<title>By: Kingsley</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/17/expectations-about-unemployment/#comment-206096</link>
		<dc:creator>Kingsley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 01:50:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>If by digital economy you mean IT sector Terry it could get hit fairly hard as a lot of it is capex which is discretion certainly over say 12 - 18 month timeframe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If by digital economy you mean IT sector Terry it could get hit fairly hard as a lot of it is capex which is discretion certainly over say 12 &#8211; 18 month timeframe.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/17/expectations-about-unemployment/#comment-206095</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 00:45:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Yes, some good points, Terry.

I&#039;ve been thinking about structural changes not just in the labour market but also in terms of people&#039;s attitudes to and subjective understandings of work (as the post indicates), and I think so much has changed since the last recession that a lot of assumptions about both effects and behaviours/attitudes will need some rethinking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, some good points, Terry.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been thinking about structural changes not just in the labour market but also in terms of people&#8217;s attitudes to and subjective understandings of work (as the post indicates), and I think so much has changed since the last recession that a lot of assumptions about both effects and behaviours/attitudes will need some rethinking.</p>
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		<title>By: Terry</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/17/expectations-about-unemployment/#comment-206094</link>
		<dc:creator>Terry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 00:32:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/17/expectations-about-unemployment/#comment-206094</guid>
		<description>Three things to watch for in relation to unemployment, which is primarily driven by personal and business consumption:

1. The nature of the credit squeeze suggests that savings will increase. In the current debt-fuelled environment, this will mean people paying off their credit cards. While the medium-term consequences of this are good, it will generate short-term pain. Hence the Keynesian focus of the budget stimulus package on pensioners, low-income families and the First Home Owners Grant (which i hate from an equity point of view): they are all more likely to promote spending rather than saving;

2. Structural changes arising from the &#039;gales of creative destruction&#039; that Joseph Schumpeter talked about, and which accelerate in recessions. Some jobs will be gone due to technological changes, decline in the demand for the product or service, and globalisation shifting some jobs offshore (try buying an Australian made shirt or children&#039;s toys these days). At the same time, new ones will emerge, as has happened since the 1780s;

3. What impact will recession have on the digital economy? The last general worldwide recession was 1991-92, which was particularly strong in Australia. We have not had a recession since most people got the Internet, so there is a real zone of uncertainty here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Three things to watch for in relation to unemployment, which is primarily driven by personal and business consumption:</p>
<p>1. The nature of the credit squeeze suggests that savings will increase. In the current debt-fuelled environment, this will mean people paying off their credit cards. While the medium-term consequences of this are good, it will generate short-term pain. Hence the Keynesian focus of the budget stimulus package on pensioners, low-income families and the First Home Owners Grant (which i hate from an equity point of view): they are all more likely to promote spending rather than saving;</p>
<p>2. Structural changes arising from the &#8216;gales of creative destruction&#8217; that Joseph Schumpeter talked about, and which accelerate in recessions. Some jobs will be gone due to technological changes, decline in the demand for the product or service, and globalisation shifting some jobs offshore (try buying an Australian made shirt or children&#8217;s toys these days). At the same time, new ones will emerge, as has happened since the 1780s;</p>
<p>3. What impact will recession have on the digital economy? The last general worldwide recession was 1991-92, which was particularly strong in Australia. We have not had a recession since most people got the Internet, so there is a real zone of uncertainty here.</p>
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		<title>By: Kingsley</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/17/expectations-about-unemployment/#comment-206093</link>
		<dc:creator>Kingsley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 00:26:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>In terms of expectations about unemployment unless you are in an industry that is really in the firing line a lot of the rise in unemployment will not be so much people losing existing jobs as new entrants into employment market failing to find their first job. If this downturn ends up being a sharp downturn but not a real recession I think we&#039;ll see most businesses just delay expansions, hiring freezes etc rather than wholesale lay-offs which means the new entrants will be the ones that struggle rather than experienced operators.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In terms of expectations about unemployment unless you are in an industry that is really in the firing line a lot of the rise in unemployment will not be so much people losing existing jobs as new entrants into employment market failing to find their first job. If this downturn ends up being a sharp downturn but not a real recession I think we&#8217;ll see most businesses just delay expansions, hiring freezes etc rather than wholesale lay-offs which means the new entrants will be the ones that struggle rather than experienced operators.</p>
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		<title>By: kymbos</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/17/expectations-about-unemployment/#comment-206092</link>
		<dc:creator>kymbos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 00:02:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>People know that bad times are probably coming, but until they see layoffs in their industry they will continue to see their job as secure.  Voila.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People know that bad times are probably coming, but until they see layoffs in their industry they will continue to see their job as secure.  Voila.</p>
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		<title>By: Ambigulous</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/17/expectations-about-unemployment/#comment-206091</link>
		<dc:creator>Ambigulous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 23:17:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/17/expectations-about-unemployment/#comment-206091</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s another possibility:

Suppose I&#039;m employed in full-time work. I read newspapers, I watch TV news. They say that bad times are coming. I think back to earlier bad times (not a recession, just a downturn). I guess unemployment may rise from 5% to 7%. That&#039;s a real rise. It&#039;s quite a substantial rise. +2 from a base of 5.

But it means an EXTRA 2% of my fellow-employed are likely to lose their job. Randomly distributed, that is only 1 in 50 of the population, or in terms of the currently employed, 2 in 95. So my chances of going from employed full-time to unemployed, are TINY.

OK, now re-do the figures with a much heftier rise, say from 5% to 9%. Still only a 4 in 95 chance of losing my job.

Caveats:
i) if I&#039;m in a more vulnerable industry like car assembly, house building or tourism, I might be less sanguine.
ii) if my organisation looks like shedding staff, ditto.
iii) if I&#039;m in casual or part-time work, I may expect my weekly hours to be reduced in a downturn; how would I then answer the survey questions?

&quot;The economy&quot; is certainly an abstraction, but interest rates, petrol prices, credit card statements, weekly pay slips, friends&#039; employment, and TV news bulletins are all concrete and readily understood.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s another possibility:</p>
<p>Suppose I&#8217;m employed in full-time work. I read newspapers, I watch TV news. They say that bad times are coming. I think back to earlier bad times (not a recession, just a downturn). I guess unemployment may rise from 5% to 7%. That&#8217;s a real rise. It&#8217;s quite a substantial rise. +2 from a base of 5.</p>
<p>But it means an EXTRA 2% of my fellow-employed are likely to lose their job. Randomly distributed, that is only 1 in 50 of the population, or in terms of the currently employed, 2 in 95. So my chances of going from employed full-time to unemployed, are TINY.</p>
<p>OK, now re-do the figures with a much heftier rise, say from 5% to 9%. Still only a 4 in 95 chance of losing my job.</p>
<p>Caveats:<br />
i) if I&#8217;m in a more vulnerable industry like car assembly, house building or tourism, I might be less sanguine.<br />
ii) if my organisation looks like shedding staff, ditto.<br />
iii) if I&#8217;m in casual or part-time work, I may expect my weekly hours to be reduced in a downturn; how would I then answer the survey questions?</p>
<p>&#8220;The economy&#8221; is certainly an abstraction, but interest rates, petrol prices, credit card statements, weekly pay slips, friends&#8217; employment, and TV news bulletins are all concrete and readily understood.</p>
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