Comments on: In your gut, you know he's nuts http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/19/in-your-gut-you-know-hes-nuts/ Life, Culture and Politics from BrisVegas Tue, 14 Feb 2012 05:46:15 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3 By: Steve Edwards http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/19/in-your-gut-you-know-hes-nuts/#comment-206573 Steve Edwards Fri, 21 Nov 2008 16:35:31 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/19/in-your-gut-you-know-hes-nuts/#comment-206573 "As for whether Henry Ford was involved I think it makes little difference to the millions murdered." Actually, the difference is even smaller than either you or Adrien thought - in addition to his dealings with the Nazis, Henry Ford also had a concession in the Soviet Union during Stalin's tenure: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ford <i>In 1929, Ford accepted Stalin's invitation to build a model plant (NNAZ, today GAZ) at Gorky, a city later renamed Nizhny Novgorod, and he sent American engineers and technicians to help set it up, including future labor leader Walter Reuther. The technical assistance agreement between Ford Motor Company, VSNH and the Soviet-controlled Amtorg Trading Corporation[45] (as purchasing agent) was concluded for nine years and signed on May 31, 1929, by Ford, FMC vice-president Peter E. Martin, V. I. Mezhlauk, and the president of Amtorg, Saul G. Bron.</i> “As for whether Henry Ford was involved I think it makes little difference to the millions murdered.”

Actually, the difference is even smaller than either you or Adrien thought – in addition to his dealings with the Nazis, Henry Ford also had a concession in the Soviet Union during Stalin’s tenure:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ford

In 1929, Ford accepted Stalin’s invitation to build a model plant (NNAZ, today GAZ) at Gorky, a city later renamed Nizhny Novgorod, and he sent American engineers and technicians to help set it up, including future labor leader Walter Reuther.

The technical assistance agreement between Ford Motor Company, VSNH and the Soviet-controlled Amtorg Trading Corporation[45] (as purchasing agent) was concluded for nine years and signed on May 31, 1929, by Ford, FMC vice-president Peter E. Martin, V. I. Mezhlauk, and the president of Amtorg, Saul G. Bron.

]]> By: Andrew Reynolds http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/19/in-your-gut-you-know-hes-nuts/#comment-206572 Andrew Reynolds Fri, 21 Nov 2008 00:11:26 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/19/in-your-gut-you-know-hes-nuts/#comment-206572 The question, of course, is whether you avoid voting Conservative or conservative. I normally find the ALP politicians to be more deeply conservative than any of the so called "Conservative" parties. The question, of course, is whether you avoid voting Conservative or conservative. I normally find the ALP politicians to be more deeply conservative than any of the so called “Conservative” parties.

]]> By: wizofaus http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/19/in-your-gut-you-know-hes-nuts/#comment-206571 wizofaus Thu, 20 Nov 2008 21:31:34 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/19/in-your-gut-you-know-hes-nuts/#comment-206571 Indeed, it's because it's a live environment with millions of users that relatively small patches is the safest way to go. If you want to make wholesale revisions you need a good test environment - which is plausible by, for instance, trying out policy ideas on some subset of the population (an idea that I know Andrew Leigh is keen on, and I think there is definitely room for). And FWIW, I completely agree that the purpose of governments is not to tell people how to run their lives. Which is one reason I almost never vote for conservative politicans :-) Indeed, it’s because it’s a live environment with millions of users that relatively small patches is the safest way to go.
If you want to make wholesale revisions you need a good test environment – which is plausible by, for instance, trying out policy ideas on some subset of the population (an idea that I know Andrew Leigh is keen on, and I think there is definitely room for).
And FWIW, I completely agree that the purpose of governments is not to tell people how to run their lives. Which is one reason I almost never vote for conservative politicans :-)

]]> By: Andrew Reynolds http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/19/in-your-gut-you-know-hes-nuts/#comment-206570 Andrew Reynolds Thu, 20 Nov 2008 13:14:33 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/19/in-your-gut-you-know-hes-nuts/#comment-206570 So, wizof aus, are you honestly contending that, for the economy (and remember, no SIT or UAT environments here) the government should just keep putting in possible patches until they eventually get it right? On a live environment with millions of users that seems a little foolhardy. My thinking would be to try to remove the most obvious errors in a slow and measured way until you get down to a reasonably simple lot of base code - consisting of a few subroutines (apologies for the VB speak) like "subNationDefend", "subCriminalsProsecute" and "subChildrenEducate". The rest could be left to the independent, learning agents within the program to find their own optimal path. I believe it extremely unlikely that <em>any</em> code, no matter how complex, is likely to be able to tell me how to live my life well. So, wizof aus, are you honestly contending that, for the economy (and remember, no SIT or UAT environments here) the government should just keep putting in possible patches until they eventually get it right? On a live environment with millions of users that seems a little foolhardy.
My thinking would be to try to remove the most obvious errors in a slow and measured way until you get down to a reasonably simple lot of base code – consisting of a few subroutines (apologies for the VB speak) like “subNationDefend”, “subCriminalsProsecute” and “subChildrenEducate”.
The rest could be left to the independent, learning agents within the program to find their own optimal path. I believe it extremely unlikely that any code, no matter how complex, is likely to be able to tell me how to live my life well.

]]> By: wizofaus http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/19/in-your-gut-you-know-hes-nuts/#comment-206569 wizofaus Thu, 20 Nov 2008 10:57:38 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/19/in-your-gut-you-know-hes-nuts/#comment-206569 AR - I design software for a living, and trust me, "adding bits in the hope that it will get you somewhere" is surprisingly useful! Indeed we had a bug with a major customer recently that took about a week of adding bits and testing them until we had it licked. For the next version I rewrote the code, which is bound to have all sorts of huge unintended consequences, but it will go through extensive QA to find them before being released. You can't do that with entire economies, however. AR – I design software for a living, and trust me, “adding bits in the hope that it will get you somewhere” is surprisingly useful! Indeed we had a bug with a major customer recently that took about a week of adding bits and testing them until we had it licked.
For the next version I rewrote the code, which is bound to have all sorts of huge unintended consequences, but it will go through extensive QA to find them before being released. You can’t do that with entire economies, however.

]]> By: Andrew Reynolds http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/19/in-your-gut-you-know-hes-nuts/#comment-206568 Andrew Reynolds Thu, 20 Nov 2008 10:48:07 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/19/in-your-gut-you-know-hes-nuts/#comment-206568 Adrien, Pinochet (for all his faults) was not in the same league as the rest of them - although I may be wrong on Mussolini and Franco in that. As for whether Henry Ford was involved I think it makes little difference to the millions murdered. The differences between them all lie in the semantics. . wizofaus, I have done a fair bit of software design fro time to time and I normally find the best way is to work out what you have, what you need and try to work a path from one to the other. It is not normally best to work out what you have and then keep adding bits in the hope that it will get you somewhere useful eventually. I would suggest something similar is true more generally. Adrien,
Pinochet (for all his faults) was not in the same league as the rest of them – although I may be wrong on Mussolini and Franco in that. As for whether Henry Ford was involved I think it makes little difference to the millions murdered. The differences between them all lie in the semantics.
.
wizofaus,
I have done a fair bit of software design fro time to time and I normally find the best way is to work out what you have, what you need and try to work a path from one to the other.
It is not normally best to work out what you have and then keep adding bits in the hope that it will get you somewhere useful eventually. I would suggest something similar is true more generally.

]]> By: Adrien http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/19/in-your-gut-you-know-hes-nuts/#comment-206567 Adrien Thu, 20 Nov 2008 09:38:19 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/19/in-your-gut-you-know-hes-nuts/#comment-206567 Andrew Reynolds - <i>Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Hitler, Mussolini, Franco and others, so at least we have that to be thankful for.</i> . We do. . A hundred years from now these experiments will bear much fruit. In fact they already do. All the Rah-Rah Capitalism types have gone to town on these guys. Tend to leave Pinochet off the list for some reason. And forget what makes Hitler and Mussolini different from Mao and Lenin. (Hint: Henry Ford) But anyway. . Give it time and you'll see a huge treasure of valuable scholarship on the 20th century anti-Utopias. Valuable lessons learnt, at someone else's expense. Andrew Reynolds – Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Hitler, Mussolini, Franco and others, so at least we have that to be thankful for.
.
We do.
.
A hundred years from now these experiments will bear much fruit. In fact they already do. All the Rah-Rah Capitalism types have gone to town on these guys. Tend to leave Pinochet off the list for some reason. And forget what makes Hitler and Mussolini different from Mao and Lenin. (Hint: Henry Ford) But anyway.
.
Give it time and you’ll see a huge treasure of valuable scholarship on the 20th century anti-Utopias. Valuable lessons learnt, at someone else’s expense.

]]> By: Jacques Chester http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/19/in-your-gut-you-know-hes-nuts/#comment-206566 Jacques Chester Thu, 20 Nov 2008 08:55:49 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/19/in-your-gut-you-know-hes-nuts/#comment-206566 This has been an interesting thread. I will shamelessly take full credit. This has been an interesting thread. I will shamelessly take full credit.

]]> By: wizofaus http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/19/in-your-gut-you-know-hes-nuts/#comment-206565 wizofaus Thu, 20 Nov 2008 00:46:50 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/19/in-your-gut-you-know-hes-nuts/#comment-206565 Well AR, I'm actually reasonably open to the idea that if we were to build a modern economy from scratch, relatively minimal regulation would be the way to go. But we can't do that - we already have this big mess held together with bits of string and duct tape, the way most software is, but unlike software developers, we can't rewrite it from scratch. So the best we can hope for is adding new bits of string and duct tape where necessary, and pulling old bits away when they don't work properly any more. Both actions can have unintended consequences, and I don't see much reason to suppose that on average, it's worse to add more bits than to pull away old bits. Well AR, I’m actually reasonably open to the idea that if we were to build a modern economy from scratch, relatively minimal regulation would be the way to go. But we can’t do that – we already have this big mess held together with bits of string and duct tape, the way most software is, but unlike software developers, we can’t rewrite it from scratch. So the best we can hope for is adding new bits of string and duct tape where necessary, and pulling old bits away when they don’t work properly any more. Both actions can have unintended consequences, and I don’t see much reason to suppose that on average, it’s worse to add more bits than to pull away old bits.

]]> By: Patrick B http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/19/in-your-gut-you-know-hes-nuts/#comment-206564 Patrick B Thu, 20 Nov 2008 00:28:00 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/11/19/in-your-gut-you-know-hes-nuts/#comment-206564 As there is no where in the world where one could experience libertariansism I'd say libertarians have no idea what they are talking about. Perhaps they should have a go at Somalia, it seem singularly free of governmant at the moment. As there is no where in the world where one could experience libertariansism I’d say libertarians have no idea what they are talking about. Perhaps they should have a go at Somalia, it seem singularly free of governmant at the moment.

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