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	<title>Comments on: Cities, states, globalisation and warfare (and global sociology)</title>
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	<description>Life, Culture and Politics from BrisVegas</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 10:11:31 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: jo</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/01/cities-states-globalisation-and-warfare-and-global-sociology/#comment-184038</link>
		<dc:creator>jo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 03:31:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Isn&#039;t Saskia Sassen sorta just catching up with what Martin Van Creveld wrote back in 1991 in his:  The Transformation of War: The Most Radical Reinterpretation of Armed Conflict Since Clausewitz.

I&#039;ve only read bit and pieces online &amp; reviews of etc, and also only bits and pieces of his Rise &amp; Decline of the State - so can&#039;t really comment with any great depth - others will probably know more. You don&#039;t have to agree on the diagnosis to note the same symptoms (nor on the prescription and even prognosis).

A &quot;global city&quot; is def. enemy HQ to everyone with a gripe or plan - jihadists, religionists, nationalists, bandits, and spivs and con-men - a long list.

Being an Israeli may have given Van Creveld a heads up in the great game caper.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t Saskia Sassen sorta just catching up with what Martin Van Creveld wrote back in 1991 in his:  The Transformation of War: The Most Radical Reinterpretation of Armed Conflict Since Clausewitz.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve only read bit and pieces online &amp; reviews of etc, and also only bits and pieces of his Rise &amp; Decline of the State &#8211; so can&#8217;t really comment with any great depth &#8211; others will probably know more. You don&#8217;t have to agree on the diagnosis to note the same symptoms (nor on the prescription and even prognosis).</p>
<p>A &#8220;global city&#8221; is def. enemy HQ to everyone with a gripe or plan &#8211; jihadists, religionists, nationalists, bandits, and spivs and con-men &#8211; a long list.</p>
<p>Being an Israeli may have given Van Creveld a heads up in the great game caper.</p>
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		<title>By: Nabakov</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/01/cities-states-globalisation-and-warfare-and-global-sociology/#comment-184037</link>
		<dc:creator>Nabakov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 13:32:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Sometimes a picture says a thousand words.

Here&#039;s two thousand words.
http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/1942world1600.jpg
http://www.thomaspmbarnett.com/images/pentagons_new_map.jpg</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sometimes a picture says a thousand words.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s two thousand words.<br />
<a href="http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/1942world1600.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/1942world1600.jpg</a><br />
<a href="http://www.thomaspmbarnett.com/images/pentagons_new_map.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://www.thomaspmbarnett.com/images/pentagons_new_map.jpg</a></p>
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		<title>By: Adrien</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/01/cities-states-globalisation-and-warfare-and-global-sociology/#comment-184036</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 06:37:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Ambi - &lt;i&gt;Hmmm, would General Vo Nguyen Giap agree?
.
I was talking &lt;i&gt;American&lt;/i&gt; soldiers not Vietnamese. Since Vietnam the idea of compelling US citizens into military service has become unthinkable. The notion that one has a duty to fight for one&#039;s country has likewise withered. There&#039;s a lot of patriotic hubris about but the support for the troopers always translates into the support for someone else&#039;s kids.
.
Blackwater USA is a mercenary corporation run by a born-again bonehead with ties to Fundamentalist Central Republicana. These people are dangerous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ambi &#8211; <i>Hmmm, would General Vo Nguyen Giap agree?<br />
.<br />
I was talking </i><i>American</i> soldiers not Vietnamese. Since Vietnam the idea of compelling US citizens into military service has become unthinkable. The notion that one has a duty to fight for one&#8217;s country has likewise withered. There&#8217;s a lot of patriotic hubris about but the support for the troopers always translates into the support for someone else&#8217;s kids.<br />
.<br />
Blackwater USA is a mercenary corporation run by a born-again bonehead with ties to Fundamentalist Central Republicana. These people are dangerous.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/01/cities-states-globalisation-and-warfare-and-global-sociology/#comment-184035</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 05:55:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/01/cities-states-globalisation-and-warfare-and-global-sociology/#comment-184035</guid>
		<description>Adrien, yes, in the literature the professionalisation of the military and the end of the citizen-soldier is identified as another big factor in the mutation of war.

Paul - the Durkheimian explanation for the low crime rate in WW2 is similar to the reason for why it was also the nadir for suicide - total war brings about very strong social integration.

It&#039;s a bit of a tangent to this post, and it might be interesting to return to it, but there&#039;s some fascinating research on the changes in the crime rate over time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adrien, yes, in the literature the professionalisation of the military and the end of the citizen-soldier is identified as another big factor in the mutation of war.</p>
<p>Paul &#8211; the Durkheimian explanation for the low crime rate in WW2 is similar to the reason for why it was also the nadir for suicide &#8211; total war brings about very strong social integration.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a bit of a tangent to this post, and it might be interesting to return to it, but there&#8217;s some fascinating research on the changes in the crime rate over time.</p>
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		<title>By: Ambigulous</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/01/cities-states-globalisation-and-warfare-and-global-sociology/#comment-184034</link>
		<dc:creator>Ambigulous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 05:53:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/01/cities-states-globalisation-and-warfare-and-global-sociology/#comment-184034</guid>
		<description>Blackwater?  is the Tigris a &quot;back water&quot;?

&quot;But one of the legacies of the Vietnam War is that the citizen-soldier concept is dead&quot;

Hmmm, would General Vo Nguyen Giap agree?

&quot;Giap mimicked the Chinese by creating different types of units: a regular army, regional forces, and popular or local troops. Each had parallel political organizations on every level of military command and emphasized troop indoctrination or political work in the army by party functionaries.&quot; Michael A. Sheehan, forweord to George Tanham, &quot;Communist Revoltionary Warfare. From the Vietminh to the Viet Cong&quot;, Praeger Security International; 1961, 1968, 2006</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blackwater?  is the Tigris a &#8220;back water&#8221;?</p>
<p>&#8220;But one of the legacies of the Vietnam War is that the citizen-soldier concept is dead&#8221;</p>
<p>Hmmm, would General Vo Nguyen Giap agree?</p>
<p>&#8220;Giap mimicked the Chinese by creating different types of units: a regular army, regional forces, and popular or local troops. Each had parallel political organizations on every level of military command and emphasized troop indoctrination or political work in the army by party functionaries.&#8221; Michael A. Sheehan, forweord to George Tanham, &#8220;Communist Revoltionary Warfare. From the Vietminh to the Viet Cong&#8221;, Praeger Security International; 1961, 1968, 2006</p>
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		<title>By: Adrien</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/01/cities-states-globalisation-and-warfare-and-global-sociology/#comment-184033</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 05:00:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/01/cities-states-globalisation-and-warfare-and-global-sociology/#comment-184033</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure that the monopoly of the State on violence necessarily means disarming the population. Americans are still bound by laws governing the use of firearms etc. The State distinguishes between legitimate and non-legitimate uses of private force. That&#039;s all very debatable of course.
.
The use of mercenary armies is one of my biggest worries. Backwater USA appear to have the entire apparatus of a military-industrial complex at their disposal. How democracies are supposed to control a company that can go to war with them is a puzzlement.
.
But one of the legacies of the Vietnam War is that the citizen-soldier concept is dead. Another is that the American elite have abandoned the military as a career option. The result is a professional army of less-than-professional soldiers augmented increasingly by corporate mercenaries from wherever. Add to this the increasing lack of respect between military and government and you&#039;re getting an atomization that history shows to be dangerous.
.
Can anyone say: Cross the Rubicon?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure that the monopoly of the State on violence necessarily means disarming the population. Americans are still bound by laws governing the use of firearms etc. The State distinguishes between legitimate and non-legitimate uses of private force. That&#8217;s all very debatable of course.<br />
.<br />
The use of mercenary armies is one of my biggest worries. Backwater USA appear to have the entire apparatus of a military-industrial complex at their disposal. How democracies are supposed to control a company that can go to war with them is a puzzlement.<br />
.<br />
But one of the legacies of the Vietnam War is that the citizen-soldier concept is dead. Another is that the American elite have abandoned the military as a career option. The result is a professional army of less-than-professional soldiers augmented increasingly by corporate mercenaries from wherever. Add to this the increasing lack of respect between military and government and you&#8217;re getting an atomization that history shows to be dangerous.<br />
.<br />
Can anyone say: Cross the Rubicon?</p>
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		<title>By: Katz</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/01/cities-states-globalisation-and-warfare-and-global-sociology/#comment-184032</link>
		<dc:creator>Katz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 04:45:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/01/cities-states-globalisation-and-warfare-and-global-sociology/#comment-184032</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;You seem keen to paint them as almost Bush’s dupes. I suspect this slur is out of frustration of these men proving you wrong in your gloomy predictions for Iraq and particularly the supposed Tehran takeover of Iraq. Rather than admit you underestimated COIN and these mens expertise you want to ridicule them as unwitting pawns of Bush.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Perhaps it has escaped your attention that all US troops will be out of Iraq by 2011. In the meantime, their activities in Iraq have been severely curtailed.

What is two years when it will be possible for Iran to cement its influence in Iraq at its leisure any time after the departure of US troops? This has proven to be the cheapest victory of all for Iran.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Further still you seem upset the Shiites have poliical control in Iraq? Was it better when the Sunni minority ruled the Shiite? If the Shiite are the majority and the US is intent on introducing majority rule then by default of course they come to power. To suggest the US have been somehow tricked into this is just plain silly conspiracy theory nonsense.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

How on earth did you justify that conclusion to yourself before betraying yourself in print?

I have no objection at all to majority rule so long as it does not accompany genocide. Why are you unwilling to acknowledge the tragedy that has befallen Iraqi Sunni, most of whom had no association whatsoever with either Saddam or Sunni jihadists?

Are you saying that the Bush Clique were and continue to be unaware of the plight of the Sunni population of Iraq?

If they wereaware (i.e., not bone ignorant), then they were complicit in the destruction of Sunni Iraq, because the weapons used to destroy the Sunni population were provided by the Bush Clique and paid for by the US taxpayer.

Where did I say what you alleged I said about Sadr?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>You seem keen to paint them as almost Bush’s dupes. I suspect this slur is out of frustration of these men proving you wrong in your gloomy predictions for Iraq and particularly the supposed Tehran takeover of Iraq. Rather than admit you underestimated COIN and these mens expertise you want to ridicule them as unwitting pawns of Bush.</p></blockquote>
<p>Perhaps it has escaped your attention that all US troops will be out of Iraq by 2011. In the meantime, their activities in Iraq have been severely curtailed.</p>
<p>What is two years when it will be possible for Iran to cement its influence in Iraq at its leisure any time after the departure of US troops? This has proven to be the cheapest victory of all for Iran.</p>
<blockquote><p>Further still you seem upset the Shiites have poliical control in Iraq? Was it better when the Sunni minority ruled the Shiite? If the Shiite are the majority and the US is intent on introducing majority rule then by default of course they come to power. To suggest the US have been somehow tricked into this is just plain silly conspiracy theory nonsense.</p></blockquote>
<p>How on earth did you justify that conclusion to yourself before betraying yourself in print?</p>
<p>I have no objection at all to majority rule so long as it does not accompany genocide. Why are you unwilling to acknowledge the tragedy that has befallen Iraqi Sunni, most of whom had no association whatsoever with either Saddam or Sunni jihadists?</p>
<p>Are you saying that the Bush Clique were and continue to be unaware of the plight of the Sunni population of Iraq?</p>
<p>If they wereaware (i.e., not bone ignorant), then they were complicit in the destruction of Sunni Iraq, because the weapons used to destroy the Sunni population were provided by the Bush Clique and paid for by the US taxpayer.</p>
<p>Where did I say what you alleged I said about Sadr?</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Burns</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/01/cities-states-globalisation-and-warfare-and-global-sociology/#comment-184031</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Burns</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 04:40:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/01/cities-states-globalisation-and-warfare-and-global-sociology/#comment-184031</guid>
		<description>Mark,
I&#039;m not surprised at the stats for WW2. Most of the young fellas were away fighting a war or working long hours in war industries on the home front, having been conscripted by the Manpower in the latter case. Neither opportunity nor time, I would suggest.
Nor does the increase in crime stats in the 60s and 70s surprise me. There were an awful lot of baby boomers. Though I wonder if the figures after 1969 in Australia , when our Drug Squads were first established, might perhaps indicate an increase in criminal substance abuse/supply - ie a new type of crime.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark,<br />
I&#8217;m not surprised at the stats for WW2. Most of the young fellas were away fighting a war or working long hours in war industries on the home front, having been conscripted by the Manpower in the latter case. Neither opportunity nor time, I would suggest.<br />
Nor does the increase in crime stats in the 60s and 70s surprise me. There were an awful lot of baby boomers. Though I wonder if the figures after 1969 in Australia , when our Drug Squads were first established, might perhaps indicate an increase in criminal substance abuse/supply &#8211; ie a new type of crime.</p>
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		<title>By: Kingsley</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/01/cities-states-globalisation-and-warfare-and-global-sociology/#comment-184030</link>
		<dc:creator>Kingsley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 04:22:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/01/cities-states-globalisation-and-warfare-and-global-sociology/#comment-184030</guid>
		<description>Katz - First and foremost my point in raising Petraeus and Kilcullens names had nothing to do with the merits of the Iraq invasion merely to demonstrate in the context of this thread that we do have tools to use to effectively combat insurgencies including in urban environments. Why that required a diatribe about them serving the interests of supposed Iranian friendly interests I&#039;m not sure.

That said Kilcullen and truth beknown probably even Petraeus (&quot;where does this end?&quot;) were both opposed to the Iraq invasion or at least in the form it was carried out in. You seem keen to paint them as almost Bush&#039;s dupes. I suspect this slur is out of frustration of these men proving you wrong in your gloomy predictions for Iraq and particularly the supposed Tehran takeover of Iraq. Rather than admit you underestimated COIN and these mens expertise you want to ridicule them as unwitting pawns of Bush

In reality they realised regardless of merits of invasion or lack of they had to work towards normalising Iraq. They have essentially achieved this. Its still fragile but its been achieved. Kilcullen particularly was under no obligation to assist. He chose to be involved with the Surge and repeatedly warned as did Petraeus, that it would be hard and not assured of victory.  Yes indeed there are still significant Sunni refugees but they are returning and those that have stayed are enjoying a far better way of life than 2 years ago. It also is no worse or better for them because of their religious sect.
Further still you seem upset the Shiites have poliical control in Iraq? Was it better when the Sunni minority ruled the Shiite? If the Shiite are the majority and the US is intent on introducing majority rule then by default of course they come to power. To suggest the US have been somehow tricked into this is just plain silly conspiracy theory nonsense.
Likewise when are we going to truly see some material influence of Tehran over Baghdad as you keep alluding to much like the military genius and imminent success of Al Sadr you bandied about not so long ago? If it turns out the Shia in parliament and other powerful positions do uphold Iraqi soveriegnity you are left with nothing.
I&#039;m afraid this very blinkered &quot;if George Bush was involved it must have been wrong in every single instance&quot; constantly leads you towards quite remarkable positions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Katz &#8211; First and foremost my point in raising Petraeus and Kilcullens names had nothing to do with the merits of the Iraq invasion merely to demonstrate in the context of this thread that we do have tools to use to effectively combat insurgencies including in urban environments. Why that required a diatribe about them serving the interests of supposed Iranian friendly interests I&#8217;m not sure.</p>
<p>That said Kilcullen and truth beknown probably even Petraeus (&#8220;where does this end?&#8221;) were both opposed to the Iraq invasion or at least in the form it was carried out in. You seem keen to paint them as almost Bush&#8217;s dupes. I suspect this slur is out of frustration of these men proving you wrong in your gloomy predictions for Iraq and particularly the supposed Tehran takeover of Iraq. Rather than admit you underestimated COIN and these mens expertise you want to ridicule them as unwitting pawns of Bush</p>
<p>In reality they realised regardless of merits of invasion or lack of they had to work towards normalising Iraq. They have essentially achieved this. Its still fragile but its been achieved. Kilcullen particularly was under no obligation to assist. He chose to be involved with the Surge and repeatedly warned as did Petraeus, that it would be hard and not assured of victory.  Yes indeed there are still significant Sunni refugees but they are returning and those that have stayed are enjoying a far better way of life than 2 years ago. It also is no worse or better for them because of their religious sect.<br />
Further still you seem upset the Shiites have poliical control in Iraq? Was it better when the Sunni minority ruled the Shiite? If the Shiite are the majority and the US is intent on introducing majority rule then by default of course they come to power. To suggest the US have been somehow tricked into this is just plain silly conspiracy theory nonsense.<br />
Likewise when are we going to truly see some material influence of Tehran over Baghdad as you keep alluding to much like the military genius and imminent success of Al Sadr you bandied about not so long ago? If it turns out the Shia in parliament and other powerful positions do uphold Iraqi soveriegnity you are left with nothing.<br />
I&#8217;m afraid this very blinkered &#8220;if George Bush was involved it must have been wrong in every single instance&#8221; constantly leads you towards quite remarkable positions.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/01/cities-states-globalisation-and-warfare-and-global-sociology/#comment-184029</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 03:10:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/01/cities-states-globalisation-and-warfare-and-global-sociology/#comment-184029</guid>
		<description>I think the Spanish case (and to a degree also what was going on in Greece in the 70s and the extreme repression the Italian state put in place) demonstrates that state formation is an uneven process. It never worked quite as well in some Mediterranean states as it worked in some Northern European ones.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the Spanish case (and to a degree also what was going on in Greece in the 70s and the extreme repression the Italian state put in place) demonstrates that state formation is an uneven process. It never worked quite as well in some Mediterranean states as it worked in some Northern European ones.</p>
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