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	<title>Comments on: Potentially the biggest source of renewable energy in the world!?</title>
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	<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/03/potentially-the-biggest-source-of-renewable-energy-in-the-world/</link>
	<description>Life, Culture and Politics from BrisVegas</description>
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		<title>By: Sacha</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/03/potentially-the-biggest-source-of-renewable-energy-in-the-world/#comment-184259</link>
		<dc:creator>Sacha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 06:09:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>very quick thought - you have to move the cold water closer to the surface - could take a lot of energy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>very quick thought &#8211; you have to move the cold water closer to the surface &#8211; could take a lot of energy</p>
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		<title>By: Oh Sadi, the cleaning Ladi</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/03/potentially-the-biggest-source-of-renewable-energy-in-the-world/#comment-184258</link>
		<dc:creator>Oh Sadi, the cleaning Ladi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 10:53:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>At last my little &quot;Carnot&#039;s Principle&quot;, oui? Good for some principles and genuine thermodynamics is here with the debate. Congratulations, Messieurs! Au revoir, et bon chance with this glow ball warming.

Sadi Carnot</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At last my little &#8220;Carnot&#8217;s Principle&#8221;, oui? Good for some principles and genuine thermodynamics is here with the debate. Congratulations, Messieurs! Au revoir, et bon chance with this glow ball warming.</p>
<p>Sadi Carnot</p>
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		<title>By: Luke Weston</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/03/potentially-the-biggest-source-of-renewable-energy-in-the-world/#comment-184257</link>
		<dc:creator>Luke Weston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 07:55:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;Mercurious, the theoretical limit I saw was 6-7% efficiency. It does seem that moving all that water is a problem.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

If the differential temperature is 24 K and the surface temperature is 300 K, the Carnot limit - the absolute maximum efficiency - is only 8%, or as low as 3.3% for a temperature difference of 10 K. In practice, a real heat engine can&#039;t reach that limit. I would assume that the quoted efficiency of 6-7% is based on the assumption of a temperature difference of 24 K - which is really the practical maximum you can find - and it doesn&#039;t even begin to factor in the energy input to the pumps.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&#8220;Mercurious, the theoretical limit I saw was 6-7% efficiency. It does seem that moving all that water is a problem.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>If the differential temperature is 24 K and the surface temperature is 300 K, the Carnot limit &#8211; the absolute maximum efficiency &#8211; is only 8%, or as low as 3.3% for a temperature difference of 10 K. In practice, a real heat engine can&#8217;t reach that limit. I would assume that the quoted efficiency of 6-7% is based on the assumption of a temperature difference of 24 K &#8211; which is really the practical maximum you can find &#8211; and it doesn&#8217;t even begin to factor in the energy input to the pumps.</p>
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		<title>By: CountingCats</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/03/potentially-the-biggest-source-of-renewable-energy-in-the-world/#comment-184256</link>
		<dc:creator>CountingCats</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 01:30:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>What you describe here requires the active pumping of water as a coolant. Unnecessary.

If instead the ammonia were in a valve controlled (to prevent backflow) closed loop inside an open top canopy/sheath, extending deep into the cooler waters, cold water confined by the sheath would be heated by descending ammonia, rising through the sheath and drawing more cold water in. The ammonia would cool and liquefy, being forced by pressure up the other arm of the loop where it would then start to boil and transition to gas, driving turbines at the top.

The nutrient rich deep ocean water drawn up through the sheath as a result of being heated would, instead of being dumped back into the depths as in your diagram, fertilise the upper ocean waters creating a localised biological oasis in the surrounding watery desert. Increased biological diversity and fishing productivity is a by-product of the design.

I think this design was actually implemented in the Caribbean sometime in the 1920&#039;s.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What you describe here requires the active pumping of water as a coolant. Unnecessary.</p>
<p>If instead the ammonia were in a valve controlled (to prevent backflow) closed loop inside an open top canopy/sheath, extending deep into the cooler waters, cold water confined by the sheath would be heated by descending ammonia, rising through the sheath and drawing more cold water in. The ammonia would cool and liquefy, being forced by pressure up the other arm of the loop where it would then start to boil and transition to gas, driving turbines at the top.</p>
<p>The nutrient rich deep ocean water drawn up through the sheath as a result of being heated would, instead of being dumped back into the depths as in your diagram, fertilise the upper ocean waters creating a localised biological oasis in the surrounding watery desert. Increased biological diversity and fishing productivity is a by-product of the design.</p>
<p>I think this design was actually implemented in the Caribbean sometime in the 1920&#8242;s.</p>
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		<title>By: feral sparrowhawk</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/03/potentially-the-biggest-source-of-renewable-energy-in-the-world/#comment-184255</link>
		<dc:creator>feral sparrowhawk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 14:10:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I&#039;m doubtful that it will be economic (no expertise, but it was so far off when proposed in the 70s, and its not obvious where the technological improvements would come). However, in the right location I&#039;d imagine it would be a small environmental benefit.

It&#039;s true that too many nutrients are damaging the reef but that&#039;s partly because they are a concentration of certain nutrients, rather than the mix from deep water that ocean life has evolved to deal with. It&#039;s the difference between feeding a visiting possum refined white bread and a diverse diet more similar to the one it&#039;s used to in the wild.

And of course one of the worrying aspects of climate change is a reduction in mixing between the surface and the deep ocean, although the areas this would operate in are probably not the places where the fall off is occuring.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m doubtful that it will be economic (no expertise, but it was so far off when proposed in the 70s, and its not obvious where the technological improvements would come). However, in the right location I&#8217;d imagine it would be a small environmental benefit.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s true that too many nutrients are damaging the reef but that&#8217;s partly because they are a concentration of certain nutrients, rather than the mix from deep water that ocean life has evolved to deal with. It&#8217;s the difference between feeding a visiting possum refined white bread and a diverse diet more similar to the one it&#8217;s used to in the wild.</p>
<p>And of course one of the worrying aspects of climate change is a reduction in mixing between the surface and the deep ocean, although the areas this would operate in are probably not the places where the fall off is occuring.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/03/potentially-the-biggest-source-of-renewable-energy-in-the-world/#comment-184254</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 13:42:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The claim I saw of cost competitiveness was at the Townsville site linked in the post. $25 for a barrel of oil was mentioned. It came from &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.trellis.demon.co.uk/reports/otec_sites.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this paper dating from 1997&lt;/a&gt; which goes into some detail about where the best sites might be.

There is a preference for building the plants on land, which would need deep water within 10 kilometres. Four sites are identified near the USA:

    *  the island of Hawaii
    * Providence Island in the Bahamas (Nassau)
    * St. Croix in the Virgin Islands
    * Grand Cayman

If, like me, you have a few shares in &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.geodynamics.com.au/IRM/content/home.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Geodynamics&lt;/a&gt;, you have to keep an eye out for competition that might blow them out of the water, as it were. I don&#039;t think OTEC is it. Still it could be the go in places like Hawaii and the US naval base in Diego Garcia where one is being built. As Robert said, in these places the usually ship in diesel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The claim I saw of cost competitiveness was at the Townsville site linked in the post. $25 for a barrel of oil was mentioned. It came from <a href="http://www.trellis.demon.co.uk/reports/otec_sites.html" rel="nofollow">this paper dating from 1997</a> which goes into some detail about where the best sites might be.</p>
<p>There is a preference for building the plants on land, which would need deep water within 10 kilometres. Four sites are identified near the USA:</p>
<p>    *  the island of Hawaii<br />
    * Providence Island in the Bahamas (Nassau)<br />
    * St. Croix in the Virgin Islands<br />
    * Grand Cayman</p>
<p>If, like me, you have a few shares in <a href="http://www.geodynamics.com.au/IRM/content/home.html" rel="nofollow">Geodynamics</a>, you have to keep an eye out for competition that might blow them out of the water, as it were. I don&#8217;t think OTEC is it. Still it could be the go in places like Hawaii and the US naval base in Diego Garcia where one is being built. As Robert said, in these places the usually ship in diesel.</p>
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		<title>By: myriad</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/03/potentially-the-biggest-source-of-renewable-energy-in-the-world/#comment-184253</link>
		<dc:creator>myriad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 09:54:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Dunno the answers to those ones David, but they don&#039;t strike me as particularly difficult to overcome. There&#039;s a tonne of things we suspend happily in the water now worth squillions (oil &amp; gas drilling equipment spring immediately to mind) that we know how to clean etc., so I&#039;m sure we can adapt something &amp; figure it out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dunno the answers to those ones David, but they don&#8217;t strike me as particularly difficult to overcome. There&#8217;s a tonne of things we suspend happily in the water now worth squillions (oil &amp; gas drilling equipment spring immediately to mind) that we know how to clean etc., so I&#8217;m sure we can adapt something &amp; figure it out.</p>
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		<title>By: David Rubie</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/03/potentially-the-biggest-source-of-renewable-energy-in-the-world/#comment-184252</link>
		<dc:creator>David Rubie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 06:17:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>myriad wrote:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Why get it from bananas or ammonia when we may be able to get so much more from appreciating fishies?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That&#039;s cool, but like a lot of sea based stuff, it still suffers from the inevitable degradation and buildup of sea gunk that makes submerged moving parts impractical over the longer term.  How do you clean the thing?  How long before it becomes a massive oyster hatchery? Mmmm, oysters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>myriad wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>Why get it from bananas or ammonia when we may be able to get so much more from appreciating fishies?</p></blockquote>
<p>That&#8217;s cool, but like a lot of sea based stuff, it still suffers from the inevitable degradation and buildup of sea gunk that makes submerged moving parts impractical over the longer term.  How do you clean the thing?  How long before it becomes a massive oyster hatchery? Mmmm, oysters.</p>
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		<title>By: Razor</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/03/potentially-the-biggest-source-of-renewable-energy-in-the-world/#comment-184251</link>
		<dc:creator>Razor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 06:09:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>If they can commercialise it - good luck.

I can image the hoohah trying to lay subsea cables through the great Barrier reef Marine Park.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If they can commercialise it &#8211; good luck.</p>
<p>I can image the hoohah trying to lay subsea cables through the great Barrier reef Marine Park.</p>
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		<title>By: myriad</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/03/potentially-the-biggest-source-of-renewable-energy-in-the-world/#comment-184250</link>
		<dc:creator>myriad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 05:23:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Why get it from bananas or ammonia when we may be able to get so much more &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/11/29/211611/05&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;from appreciating fishies&lt;/a&gt;?

Of all* the recent new cutting edge renewables I&#039;ve read about, this one struck me as the most exciting.



* true, it&#039;s not that many</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why get it from bananas or ammonia when we may be able to get so much more <a href="http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/11/29/211611/05" rel="nofollow">from appreciating fishies</a>?</p>
<p>Of all* the recent new cutting edge renewables I&#8217;ve read about, this one struck me as the most exciting.</p>
<p>* true, it&#8217;s not that many</p>
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