Comments on: Outliers, privilege and gender http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/16/outliers-privilege-and-gender/ Life, Culture and Politics from BrisVegas Tue, 14 Feb 2012 05:08:26 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3 By: Cheryl http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/16/outliers-privilege-and-gender/#comment-186557 Cheryl Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:01:48 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/16/outliers-privilege-and-gender/#comment-186557 Deborah <i>I’m happy to agree that privilege can sometimes mislead people,</i> Misled from what/whom towards what/whom? Deborah

I’m happy to agree that privilege can sometimes mislead people,

Misled from what/whom towards what/whom?

]]> By: Adrien http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/16/outliers-privilege-and-gender/#comment-186556 Adrien Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:29:15 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/16/outliers-privilege-and-gender/#comment-186556 <i>doesn’t mean they had to be willing to do the things the other firms wouldn’t do</i> . Except if they wanted to get paid, yeah? :) doesn’t mean they had to be willing to do the things the other firms wouldn’t do
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Except if they wanted to get paid, yeah? :)

]]> By: Tyro Rex http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/16/outliers-privilege-and-gender/#comment-186555 Tyro Rex Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:02:52 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/16/outliers-privilege-and-gender/#comment-186555 It's orthogonal, Adrien. Just because they were denied access to existing WASP firms doesn't mean they had to be willing to do the things the other firms wouldn't do. Also, they could have done <em>other</em> things the old firms wouldn't do, as if there's only two things a lawyer might do! It’s orthogonal, Adrien. Just because they were denied access to existing WASP firms doesn’t mean they had to be willing to do the things the other firms wouldn’t do. Also, they could have done other things the old firms wouldn’t do, as if there’s only two things a lawyer might do!

]]> By: Adrien http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/16/outliers-privilege-and-gender/#comment-186554 Adrien Thu, 18 Dec 2008 08:59:17 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/16/outliers-privilege-and-gender/#comment-186554 Deborah - <i>it’s too close to ‘but what about teh menz?’</i> . This is what I mean about ideological tunnel vision. I'm not arguing or even thinking that. But automatically it raises suspicion because of the mere possibility. Please understand I'm not having a go at you. It's just that the usual groove of Left-Right debate has a tendency to place people in a box they might not belong in. As in Tim Blair and co's little exercise in branding me a terrorist-sympathizing champion of moral relativism recently. . The value of Gladwell's book has (imho) nothing to do with its comprehensive overview of oppression or otherwise but that that it looks at sociological context as a significant factor in individual progress in a way that sidesteps the grand narratives of oppression and simply says well if you look at patterns you can see what the specific problems actually are. And even fix 'em. Maybe. . That said you're right: 'often' doesn't work. Privilege usually wins. I withdraw 'often'. Deborah – it’s too close to ‘but what about teh menz?’
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This is what I mean about ideological tunnel vision. I’m not arguing or even thinking that. But automatically it raises suspicion because of the mere possibility. Please understand I’m not having a go at you. It’s just that the usual groove of Left-Right debate has a tendency to place people in a box they might not belong in. As in Tim Blair and co’s little exercise in branding me a terrorist-sympathizing champion of moral relativism recently.
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The value of Gladwell’s book has (imho) nothing to do with its comprehensive overview of oppression or otherwise but that that it looks at sociological context as a significant factor in individual progress in a way that sidesteps the grand narratives of oppression and simply says well if you look at patterns you can see what the specific problems actually are. And even fix ‘em. Maybe.
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That said you’re right: ‘often’ doesn’t work. Privilege usually wins. I withdraw ‘often’.

]]> By: Adrien http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/16/outliers-privilege-and-gender/#comment-186553 Adrien Thu, 18 Dec 2008 08:19:28 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/16/outliers-privilege-and-gender/#comment-186553 T Rex - <i>it’s the fault of the speaker not the listener.</i> . Um not necessarily old bean. This rule of Western cultures of which you speak does not exist. You 'disagreed' with me by 'rebutting' what I said by saying the same thing. And you've just about done it again. Please explain how this: <blockquote>They did their line of work because the prestigious lines of legal work (at the time they graduated) were denied them because of their Jewishness.</blockquote> Is substantially incompatible with this: <blockquote>The Jewish lawyers from the sticks were willing and able to do things the Park Ave stiffos wouldn’t or couldn’t.</blockquote> The WASPs <i>wouldn't</i> do litigation, it was beneath them. They wouldn't do aggressive mergers. And they wouldn't hire Jews. So the Jews had to a. Start their own firms, that b. Did what the stiffos did not and c. When that became where the money was, they got rich. . My 'analysis' is nothing of the kind. It's a glib and simplified description. . Yeah and right place, right time. Sure is important. Just ask the Rolling Stones. T Rex – it’s the fault of the speaker not the listener.
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Um not necessarily old bean. This rule of Western cultures of which you speak does not exist. You ‘disagreed’ with me by ‘rebutting’ what I said by saying the same thing. And you’ve just about done it again. Please explain how this:

They did their line of work because the prestigious lines of legal work (at the time they graduated) were denied them because of their Jewishness.

Is substantially incompatible with this:

The Jewish lawyers from the sticks were willing and able to do things the Park Ave stiffos wouldn’t or couldn’t.

The WASPs wouldn’t do litigation, it was beneath them. They wouldn’t do aggressive mergers. And they wouldn’t hire Jews. So the Jews had to a. Start their own firms, that b. Did what the stiffos did not and c. When that became where the money was, they got rich.
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My ‘analysis’ is nothing of the kind. It’s a glib and simplified description.
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Yeah and right place, right time. Sure is important. Just ask the Rolling Stones.

]]> By: Tyro Rex http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/16/outliers-privilege-and-gender/#comment-186552 Tyro Rex Wed, 17 Dec 2008 11:32:52 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/16/outliers-privilege-and-gender/#comment-186552 Deborah .. but what's the difference between those Jewish lawyers and plenty of other <em>hard-working stiffs</em> - maybe other Jewish professionals from the same background? Luck. Right place right time. So they <em>were</em> lucky, compared to a million other people who "very very hard indeed". Adrien. Let us be specific and use an example from Gladwell. In western cultures, if you try to communicate and your meaning is misunderstood, it's the <em>fault of the speaker</em> not the listener. And your analysis of the situation of the lawyers is completely off the mark. They did their line of work because the prestigious lines of legal work (at the time they graduated) were denied them because of their Jewishness. Then they worked hard at alternative lines of work, like commercial litigate. Finally they were very lucky that commercial litigation suddenly became the hot item in legal work. They were already doing that work because they had little choice but to do it. This is deliberately contrasted by Gladwell with an earlier generation of failed Jewish lawyers, who didn't get the right-time-right-place effect. If all it took was hard work and the willingness to do work no-one else would do, the earlier generation would have been successful too. But they were not. Difference? <em>luck</em>. Deborah .. but what’s the difference between those Jewish lawyers and plenty of other hard-working stiffs – maybe other Jewish professionals from the same background? Luck. Right place right time. So they were lucky, compared to a million other people who “very very hard indeed”.

Adrien. Let us be specific and use an example from Gladwell. In western cultures, if you try to communicate and your meaning is misunderstood, it’s the fault of the speaker not the listener.

And your analysis of the situation of the lawyers is completely off the mark. They did their line of work because the prestigious lines of legal work (at the time they graduated) were denied them because of their Jewishness. Then they worked hard at alternative lines of work, like commercial litigate. Finally they were very lucky that commercial litigation suddenly became the hot item in legal work. They were already doing that work because they had little choice but to do it. This is deliberately contrasted by Gladwell with an earlier generation of failed Jewish lawyers, who didn’t get the right-time-right-place effect. If all it took was hard work and the willingness to do work no-one else would do, the earlier generation would have been successful too. But they were not. Difference? luck.

]]> By: Adrien http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/16/outliers-privilege-and-gender/#comment-186551 Adrien Wed, 17 Dec 2008 09:45:38 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/16/outliers-privilege-and-gender/#comment-186551 T Rex - That's what I said. Jay-sus what happened to literacy on this site? And what Deborah said about luck. The Jewish lawyers from the sticks were willing and able to do things the Park Ave stiffos wouldn't or couldn't. A lot of Oz soldiers survived WWI because they didn;t die of disease as much. Why? 'Cause they could still squat whereas the Euroweenies had been drilled out of that. Sometimes it's an advantage to be Convict Scum! T Rex – That’s what I said. Jay-sus what happened to literacy on this site?

And what Deborah said about luck. The Jewish lawyers from the sticks were willing and able to do things the Park Ave stiffos wouldn’t or couldn’t.

A lot of Oz soldiers survived WWI because they didn;t die of disease as much. Why? ‘Cause they could still squat whereas the Euroweenies had been drilled out of that. Sometimes it’s an advantage to be Convict Scum!

]]> By: Deborah http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/16/outliers-privilege-and-gender/#comment-186550 Deborah Wed, 17 Dec 2008 09:38:21 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/16/outliers-privilege-and-gender/#comment-186550 <i>the NY Jewish lawyers where just lucky.</i> No... he makes it very clear that they also worked very, very hard indeed. That's quite a strong theme in his book. It's not that their achievements were due to luck, alone. Their hard work, in the right time and place, made for extraordinary achievements. Both circumstances and hard work created the outcome, not hard work alone. the NY Jewish lawyers where just lucky.

No… he makes it very clear that they also worked very, very hard indeed. That’s quite a strong theme in his book. It’s not that their achievements were due to luck, alone. Their hard work, in the right time and place, made for extraordinary achievements. Both circumstances and hard work created the outcome, not hard work alone.

]]> By: Deborah http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/16/outliers-privilege-and-gender/#comment-186549 Deborah Wed, 17 Dec 2008 09:35:38 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/16/outliers-privilege-and-gender/#comment-186549 <i>The normal heirarchies of privilege would blind a left wing scholar to the fact that often ‘privilege’ can be a disadvantage.</i> I'm not at all comfortable with that sort of analysis - it's too close to 'but what about teh menz?' It's the word 'often' that's doing me in. I'm happy to agree that privilege can <i>sometimes</i> mislead people, but really, do you think it would be called 'privilege' if most of the time, it didn't work to the possessors' advantage? The normal heirarchies of privilege would blind a left wing scholar to the fact that often ‘privilege’ can be a disadvantage.

I’m not at all comfortable with that sort of analysis – it’s too close to ‘but what about teh menz?’ It’s the word ‘often’ that’s doing me in. I’m happy to agree that privilege can sometimes mislead people, but really, do you think it would be called ‘privilege’ if most of the time, it didn’t work to the possessors’ advantage?

]]> By: Deborah http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/16/outliers-privilege-and-gender/#comment-186548 Deborah Wed, 17 Dec 2008 09:30:53 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/16/outliers-privilege-and-gender/#comment-186548 Well, yes, maybe that's what he does. There's a place for people who can communicate complex ideas to large audiences, and if he has the grace to admit that he's just repackaging, then what's the big deal? Well, yes, maybe that’s what he does. There’s a place for people who can communicate complex ideas to large audiences, and if he has the grace to admit that he’s just repackaging, then what’s the big deal?

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