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	<title>Comments on: Pay attention to the review this time&#8230;</title>
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	<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/</link>
	<description>Blogging politics, culture, sociology and life from Brisvegas</description>
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		<title>By: Andrew Norton</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/comment-page-2/#comment-586512</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Norton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 06:21:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/#comment-586512</guid>
		<description>Vouchers and fee deregulation are separate, though I would argue complementary, issues. Under the Nelson reforms there was partial fee deregulation in that institutions could set their own student contributions up to a cap set by government. Previously the government set the student contributions (HECS). However, government control over what courses universities offered was intensified. 

Under the Bradley proposal, student contributions would be untouched but universities would face less control over what courses they offer.

Though there are reasons to put place and fee deregulation together, in higher education they have been separate issues.

Increased fees is not a sign of policy failure; in areas like childcare and higher education where there is historic under-investment it would be very surprising if they did not increase to finance the level of service demanded.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Vouchers and fee deregulation are separate, though I would argue complementary, issues. Under the Nelson reforms there was partial fee deregulation in that institutions could set their own student contributions up to a cap set by government. Previously the government set the student contributions (HECS). However, government control over what courses universities offered was intensified. </p>
<p>Under the Bradley proposal, student contributions would be untouched but universities would face less control over what courses they offer.</p>
<p>Though there are reasons to put place and fee deregulation together, in higher education they have been separate issues.</p>
<p>Increased fees is not a sign of policy failure; in areas like childcare and higher education where there is historic under-investment it would be very surprising if they did not increase to finance the level of service demanded.</p>
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		<title>By: klaus k</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/comment-page-2/#comment-585826</link>
		<dc:creator>klaus k</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Dec 2008 05:27:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/#comment-585826</guid>
		<description>&quot;Most of the average/low prestige universities in the big cities are set up for middle class/rich kids that don’t get into the prestige universities&quot;

Each of your Sydney examples (MQ, UTS) offer programs that aren&#039;t available at &#039;prestige&#039; institutions and other programs that have been, at certain times, more difficult to get into than equivalent courses at USyd or UNSW. Furthermore, &#039;prestige&#039; hides a multitude of sins, and sometimes those idiots in the middle classes can recognise as much and will make an informed decision.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Most of the average/low prestige universities in the big cities are set up for middle class/rich kids that don’t get into the prestige universities&#8221;</p>
<p>Each of your Sydney examples (MQ, UTS) offer programs that aren&#8217;t available at &#8216;prestige&#8217; institutions and other programs that have been, at certain times, more difficult to get into than equivalent courses at USyd or UNSW. Furthermore, &#8216;prestige&#8217; hides a multitude of sins, and sometimes those idiots in the middle classes can recognise as much and will make an informed decision.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/comment-page-2/#comment-585763</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Dec 2008 03:38:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/#comment-585763</guid>
		<description>Helen, if memory serves, there are three categories of course and a range within which in each &quot;band&quot; universities can set their fees (for HECS).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Helen, if memory serves, there are three categories of course and a range within which in each &#8220;band&#8221; universities can set their fees (for HECS).</p>
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		<title>By: Helen</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/comment-page-2/#comment-585740</link>
		<dc:creator>Helen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Dec 2008 02:54:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/#comment-585740</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;On this, Andrew Norton unsurprisingly sees the glass as half empty, because universities aren’t free to set their own fees.&lt;/i&gt;

I wasn&#039;t aware that uni fees were capped, being an ordinary working stiff who reads about rises in Uni fees in the paper, so I assumed the insitutions had the power to increase them. How does that work? I oppose any kind of voucher system after experiencing vouchers-in-all-but-name with the child care system. Government gives parents money to &quot;follow the child&quot; (well, with a bit of a delay), providers raise their fees to allow for what the market can bear. Lather, rinse, repeat. Vouchers are a recipe for providers setting fees at a level way above the voucher amount.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>On this, Andrew Norton unsurprisingly sees the glass as half empty, because universities aren’t free to set their own fees.</i></p>
<p>I wasn&#8217;t aware that uni fees were capped, being an ordinary working stiff who reads about rises in Uni fees in the paper, so I assumed the insitutions had the power to increase them. How does that work? I oppose any kind of voucher system after experiencing vouchers-in-all-but-name with the child care system. Government gives parents money to &#8220;follow the child&#8221; (well, with a bit of a delay), providers raise their fees to allow for what the market can bear. Lather, rinse, repeat. Vouchers are a recipe for providers setting fees at a level way above the voucher amount.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/comment-page-2/#comment-585194</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Dec 2008 07:37:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/#comment-585194</guid>
		<description>There are also outer suburban campuses which definitely have a &quot;non-traditional&quot; student cohort - UQ Ipswich, Griffith Logan and QUT Carseldine and ACU Banyo - I&#039;ve taught at all of them. The second is under some pressure and the third has just been closed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are also outer suburban campuses which definitely have a &#8220;non-traditional&#8221; student cohort &#8211; UQ Ipswich, Griffith Logan and QUT Carseldine and ACU Banyo &#8211; I&#8217;ve taught at all of them. The second is under some pressure and the third has just been closed.</p>
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		<title>By: Laura</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/comment-page-2/#comment-585190</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Dec 2008 07:29:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/#comment-585190</guid>
		<description>I think you&#039;re conflating outer suburban and regional campuses.  My experience is that the cohort is very different at each.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you&#8217;re conflating outer suburban and regional campuses.  My experience is that the cohort is very different at each.</p>
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		<title>By: conrad</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/comment-page-2/#comment-585039</link>
		<dc:creator>conrad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Dec 2008 02:24:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/#comment-585039</guid>
		<description>&quot;I’m not quite sure what you’re telling me, Conrad&quot;

I&#039;m just saying that it isn&#039;t the case that low prestige equals higher accessibility, especially in the cities (far from it). Most of the average/low prestige universities in the big cities are set up for middle class/rich kids that don&#039;t get into the prestige universities (Macquarie, Swinburne and UTS being good examples -- I was always impressed by the number of BMWs and flash cars in the MQ car park when I worked there many years ago -- cars which most of the lower level staff couldn&#039;t even think of affording). Even most of the country/small city universities are not exactly high on equity either, and no doubt will become even less so with further reform as they migrate to the bigger cities (like Deakin and that Queensland university that gets all the bad press did), and close down their smaller regional/outer suburban campuses as UWS, VUT, and La Trobe are doing. Thus the idea that having low prestige universities increases access to poor (versus academically poor) groups is incorrect -- they&#039;re basically providing a service to middle-class kids who haven&#039;t done very well at school, quite unlike the general rhetoric.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I’m not quite sure what you’re telling me, Conrad&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m just saying that it isn&#8217;t the case that low prestige equals higher accessibility, especially in the cities (far from it). Most of the average/low prestige universities in the big cities are set up for middle class/rich kids that don&#8217;t get into the prestige universities (Macquarie, Swinburne and UTS being good examples &#8212; I was always impressed by the number of BMWs and flash cars in the MQ car park when I worked there many years ago &#8212; cars which most of the lower level staff couldn&#8217;t even think of affording). Even most of the country/small city universities are not exactly high on equity either, and no doubt will become even less so with further reform as they migrate to the bigger cities (like Deakin and that Queensland university that gets all the bad press did), and close down their smaller regional/outer suburban campuses as UWS, VUT, and La Trobe are doing. Thus the idea that having low prestige universities increases access to poor (versus academically poor) groups is incorrect &#8212; they&#8217;re basically providing a service to middle-class kids who haven&#8217;t done very well at school, quite unlike the general rhetoric.</p>
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		<title>By: Laura</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/comment-page-2/#comment-584993</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Dec 2008 01:24:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/#comment-584993</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not quite sure what you&#039;re telling me, Conrad.  I myself work at a low prestige university with multiple regional campuses, and taught at the Mildura campus for two years.  The ter there was and remains very very low and most of the BA and B Ed students enrolled there were special entry admissions.  The massive difficulty of simply staffing campuses like that and providing necessary basic resources to them (like libraries and adequately sized teaching rooms) make them the very bottom of the barrel in any academic prestige sense.  

Yet these campuses provide teachers, nurses, social workers and business graduates for the region as well as making higher ed possible for smart kids whose families are poor because of the drought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not quite sure what you&#8217;re telling me, Conrad.  I myself work at a low prestige university with multiple regional campuses, and taught at the Mildura campus for two years.  The ter there was and remains very very low and most of the BA and B Ed students enrolled there were special entry admissions.  The massive difficulty of simply staffing campuses like that and providing necessary basic resources to them (like libraries and adequately sized teaching rooms) make them the very bottom of the barrel in any academic prestige sense.  </p>
<p>Yet these campuses provide teachers, nurses, social workers and business graduates for the region as well as making higher ed possible for smart kids whose families are poor because of the drought.</p>
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		<title>By: conrad</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/comment-page-2/#comment-584939</link>
		<dc:creator>conrad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:53:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/#comment-584939</guid>
		<description>Actually Laura, the relationship between low prestige and high accessibility is not thrilling (excluding the top of the top). It appears driven at least as much by location than anything else. If you have the Bradley report, you can see the actual numbers in Figure 8 (p 34.). There are fairly average universities with low accessibility (Canberra, Swinburne, UTS, Curtin) and a few somewhat more reasonable ones with higher accessibility (Tasmania, Newcastle). 

Rather amusingly, I work at one of those fairly average universities with low accessibility, and strangely enough, our VC constantly talks about equity and helping low income groups, as does the VC from Maquarie, another university that doesn&#039;t cater to that group at all. Perhaps it&#039;s on their minds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually Laura, the relationship between low prestige and high accessibility is not thrilling (excluding the top of the top). It appears driven at least as much by location than anything else. If you have the Bradley report, you can see the actual numbers in Figure 8 (p 34.). There are fairly average universities with low accessibility (Canberra, Swinburne, UTS, Curtin) and a few somewhat more reasonable ones with higher accessibility (Tasmania, Newcastle). </p>
<p>Rather amusingly, I work at one of those fairly average universities with low accessibility, and strangely enough, our VC constantly talks about equity and helping low income groups, as does the VC from Maquarie, another university that doesn&#8217;t cater to that group at all. Perhaps it&#8217;s on their minds.</p>
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		<title>By: Laura</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/comment-page-2/#comment-584672</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:52:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/#comment-584672</guid>
		<description>Agreed that La Trobe and VU are the type of institutions likely to become vulnerable if students can more easily go to the more prestigious places, but on the other hand these institutions are the same ones in the business of providing to disadvantaged / rural/remote people which are the ones the report urges increasing participation among.  

No doubt there&#039;s a direct connection between low prestige and high accessibility that perhaps implies a practical conflict between some of the recommendations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed that La Trobe and VU are the type of institutions likely to become vulnerable if students can more easily go to the more prestigious places, but on the other hand these institutions are the same ones in the business of providing to disadvantaged / rural/remote people which are the ones the report urges increasing participation among.  </p>
<p>No doubt there&#8217;s a direct connection between low prestige and high accessibility that perhaps implies a practical conflict between some of the recommendations.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Norton</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/comment-page-2/#comment-584489</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Norton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Dec 2008 05:41:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/#comment-584489</guid>
		<description>Presumably the major reason for casualisation is not fluctuations in student numbers but because a teaching workforce is only required for half the year and at the tutor level requires only less-qualified staff than are desirable for research positions. 

The logic of this report, which keeps revenue growth low, is that student growth if it occurs will be outside the traditional universities and in providers that keep costs down by teaching all year round, with a corresponding need for year round staff. But no time for them to do research.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Presumably the major reason for casualisation is not fluctuations in student numbers but because a teaching workforce is only required for half the year and at the tutor level requires only less-qualified staff than are desirable for research positions. </p>
<p>The logic of this report, which keeps revenue growth low, is that student growth if it occurs will be outside the traditional universities and in providers that keep costs down by teaching all year round, with a corresponding need for year round staff. But no time for them to do research.</p>
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		<title>By: conrad</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/comment-page-1/#comment-584479</link>
		<dc:creator>conrad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Dec 2008 05:20:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/#comment-584479</guid>
		<description>&quot;To some degree a pattern of demand wil probably nevertheless become evident&quot;

Which I&#039;m sure will be essentially identical to now for most courses, since most courses either don&#039;t expand because it costs too much (e.g., most clinical courses), or they simply try and get as many students as possible because there are economies of scale. For example, without knowing, I&#039;ll bet that Arts at QUT takes in as many people as possible above a certain floor, as do most Arts departments in Australia. Given funding follows students already, it&#039;s hard to see how vouchers will change this. It seems to me that this will only occur if some university with a relatively reasonable standing (e.g., Monash) decides to seriously lower its entry standard (which seems somewhat likely for low enrollment subjects, such as many areas of science). This would pretty much kill off the bottom university, as I imagine you would see a little chain reaction as everyone underneath dropped their standards to make up for the loss (and stay alive), with the bottom one being killed off (which would be La Trobe and VUT in Victoria, since they are already going broke). This is obviously more likely to happen in places like Victoria and NSW where there are enough universities that could be affected, vs. Queensland where there is basically only one competitor in the good (UQ) and average (QUT) categories.


&quot;will be a perverse incentive for university managerialists.&quot;

It&#039;s not clear to me they need incentives or reasons for doing things. Hopefully in a few years some will wake up and realize they actually need a workforce.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;To some degree a pattern of demand wil probably nevertheless become evident&#8221;</p>
<p>Which I&#8217;m sure will be essentially identical to now for most courses, since most courses either don&#8217;t expand because it costs too much (e.g., most clinical courses), or they simply try and get as many students as possible because there are economies of scale. For example, without knowing, I&#8217;ll bet that Arts at QUT takes in as many people as possible above a certain floor, as do most Arts departments in Australia. Given funding follows students already, it&#8217;s hard to see how vouchers will change this. It seems to me that this will only occur if some university with a relatively reasonable standing (e.g., Monash) decides to seriously lower its entry standard (which seems somewhat likely for low enrollment subjects, such as many areas of science). This would pretty much kill off the bottom university, as I imagine you would see a little chain reaction as everyone underneath dropped their standards to make up for the loss (and stay alive), with the bottom one being killed off (which would be La Trobe and VUT in Victoria, since they are already going broke). This is obviously more likely to happen in places like Victoria and NSW where there are enough universities that could be affected, vs. Queensland where there is basically only one competitor in the good (UQ) and average (QUT) categories.</p>
<p>&#8220;will be a perverse incentive for university managerialists.&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not clear to me they need incentives or reasons for doing things. Hopefully in a few years some will wake up and realize they actually need a workforce.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Norton</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/comment-page-1/#comment-584387</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Norton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Dec 2008 02:19:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/#comment-584387</guid>
		<description>Before 2008, universities would only get the student contribution anmount for &#039;over-enrolling&#039;, with no Commonwealth subsidy, and have to pay penalties for exceeding their quota by more than 5%. Therefore the structural incentive was to aim for the target, and get some compensation for going slightly above (exactly hitting the target is hard, especially for unis relying on 2nd or lower preferences).

But the fundamental point is that the price signals have to be correct. As they are wrong, and Bradley does not propose fixing them, a voucher system is potentially dangerous if universities behave in an economically rational way. For loss-making disciplines, the incentive is to start cutting Australian students regardless of demand and trying to recruit international students instead. The most important feature of vouchers may be the freedom to take fewer, not more, students.

Though 2008 was the first year in which it was safe to expand student numbers, the fact that universities reduced rather than increased offers is a warning sign. Ditto low applications by universities for new places in recent years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Before 2008, universities would only get the student contribution anmount for &#8216;over-enrolling&#8217;, with no Commonwealth subsidy, and have to pay penalties for exceeding their quota by more than 5%. Therefore the structural incentive was to aim for the target, and get some compensation for going slightly above (exactly hitting the target is hard, especially for unis relying on 2nd or lower preferences).</p>
<p>But the fundamental point is that the price signals have to be correct. As they are wrong, and Bradley does not propose fixing them, a voucher system is potentially dangerous if universities behave in an economically rational way. For loss-making disciplines, the incentive is to start cutting Australian students regardless of demand and trying to recruit international students instead. The most important feature of vouchers may be the freedom to take fewer, not more, students.</p>
<p>Though 2008 was the first year in which it was safe to expand student numbers, the fact that universities reduced rather than increased offers is a warning sign. Ditto low applications by universities for new places in recent years.</p>
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		<title>By: Mindy</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/comment-page-1/#comment-584342</link>
		<dc:creator>Mindy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Dec 2008 01:27:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/#comment-584342</guid>
		<description>I wonder if lack of physical space for all potential students will increase the uptake of the use of podcasts of lectures n&#039;stuff. Maybe podcast lectures and staggered lab times for those who need to do hands on work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if lack of physical space for all potential students will increase the uptake of the use of podcasts of lectures n&#8217;stuff. Maybe podcast lectures and staggered lab times for those who need to do hands on work.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/comment-page-1/#comment-584333</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Dec 2008 01:13:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/#comment-584333</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s a good question, Laura. I think the difference is that the concept of over-enrolment will disappear, and there&#039;ll be no allocation of places. To some degree a pattern of demand wil probably nevertheless become evident, but there&#039;s a possibility that what the report wants to avoid (casualisation, permanent teaching staff inaccessible to students because focused solely on research) will be a perverse incentive for university managerialists. (&quot;We can&#039;t hire more permanent academics, we don&#039;t know what the demand will be - justify yourself with research grants&quot;) There&#039;s a lot of inertia in a system like this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a good question, Laura. I think the difference is that the concept of over-enrolment will disappear, and there&#8217;ll be no allocation of places. To some degree a pattern of demand wil probably nevertheless become evident, but there&#8217;s a possibility that what the report wants to avoid (casualisation, permanent teaching staff inaccessible to students because focused solely on research) will be a perverse incentive for university managerialists. (&#8220;We can&#8217;t hire more permanent academics, we don&#8217;t know what the demand will be &#8211; justify yourself with research grants&#8221;) There&#8217;s a lot of inertia in a system like this.</p>
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		<title>By: Laura</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/comment-page-1/#comment-584247</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 22:46:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/#comment-584247</guid>
		<description>Another q. about vouchers.  Doesn&#039;t funding follow students now anyway (eftsu)?  Unis can overenrol by up to 5% if they want to but I don&#039;t think it ever actually happens.  And how will universities pay teaching staff if demand becomes more volatile?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another q. about vouchers.  Doesn&#8217;t funding follow students now anyway (eftsu)?  Unis can overenrol by up to 5% if they want to but I don&#8217;t think it ever actually happens.  And how will universities pay teaching staff if demand becomes more volatile?</p>
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		<title>By: danny</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/comment-page-1/#comment-584035</link>
		<dc:creator>danny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 15:42:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/#comment-584035</guid>
		<description>Oops, bad &#039;rithmatic there: &quot;estimating the australian economy as needing &lt;strike&gt;32,000 &lt;/strike&gt; 24,000 post grads more in one year than the previous.&quot; (60,405-36,033)... then it burbles along at 52,000 +/- 3,000 post-grads needed in the labor force, after the great boffin bubble of 2010.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops, bad &#8216;rithmatic there: &#8220;estimating the australian economy as needing <strike>32,000 </strike> 24,000 post grads more in one year than the previous.&#8221; (60,405-36,033)&#8230; then it burbles along at 52,000 +/- 3,000 post-grads needed in the labor force, after the great boffin bubble of 2010.</p>
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		<title>By: danny</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/comment-page-1/#comment-584027</link>
		<dc:creator>danny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 15:29:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/#comment-584027</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d like some of whatever the dweebs from Access Economics were on when they put chapt 3, table 1 together. Apparently next year, 2009, there&#039;s gonna be an excess of 35,000 graduates cf labor market demand, (22,626 of them being post grads) and one short year later that excess will have become a shortfall of 90,000 graduates all up, that&#039;s some turnaround, it really will need to be a revolution. 
It will include a shortfall of 927 post-grads. That&#039;s got to be a dead giveaway they were off with the fairies, or pulling numbers out of a hat, estimating the australian economy as needing 32,000 post grads more in one year than the previous. To do what I&#039;d like to know, apart from maybe a plethora of self-serving roles in the higher education industry and the bureacracy , continuing to disguise of under-employment. To paraphrase the immortal phrase from a Clinton campaign &quot;It&#039;s the stupid economy&quot;. 
 Maybe its to tutor the 1000 international research students they are going to provide scholarships for in areas of need. (Rec 13) Someone please explain how there can be areas of postgraduate research need such that international students scholarships are necessary, when there is a pre-existing excess of tens of thousands of post-grads. I find it intriguing: surely it can&#039;t be that we&#039;ve had massive over-enrolment of post-grads doing stuff, developing skills, the economy has no use for, while no-one has stepped up to the plate to do  economically important type stuff, such that we have to provide 1000 area of need scholarships which are quarantined for international students? Or is there another factor/agenda or two at play?)
Oh yeh that&#039;s right, education exports are our third biggest export industry, and the two dirt based ones above it are dropping rapidly. Talk about a magic pudding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d like some of whatever the dweebs from Access Economics were on when they put chapt 3, table 1 together. Apparently next year, 2009, there&#8217;s gonna be an excess of 35,000 graduates cf labor market demand, (22,626 of them being post grads) and one short year later that excess will have become a shortfall of 90,000 graduates all up, that&#8217;s some turnaround, it really will need to be a revolution.<br />
It will include a shortfall of 927 post-grads. That&#8217;s got to be a dead giveaway they were off with the fairies, or pulling numbers out of a hat, estimating the australian economy as needing 32,000 post grads more in one year than the previous. To do what I&#8217;d like to know, apart from maybe a plethora of self-serving roles in the higher education industry and the bureacracy , continuing to disguise of under-employment. To paraphrase the immortal phrase from a Clinton campaign &#8220;It&#8217;s the stupid economy&#8221;.<br />
 Maybe its to tutor the 1000 international research students they are going to provide scholarships for in areas of need. (Rec 13) Someone please explain how there can be areas of postgraduate research need such that international students scholarships are necessary, when there is a pre-existing excess of tens of thousands of post-grads. I find it intriguing: surely it can&#8217;t be that we&#8217;ve had massive over-enrolment of post-grads doing stuff, developing skills, the economy has no use for, while no-one has stepped up to the plate to do  economically important type stuff, such that we have to provide 1000 area of need scholarships which are quarantined for international students? Or is there another factor/agenda or two at play?)<br />
Oh yeh that&#8217;s right, education exports are our third biggest export industry, and the two dirt based ones above it are dropping rapidly. Talk about a magic pudding.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/comment-page-1/#comment-583972</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 13:21:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/#comment-583972</guid>
		<description>Well, that&#039;s right, Labor Outsider - the &quot;classical liberal&quot; vote isn&#039;t a big one and the well off parents of kids doing law at sandstones or whatever are quite happy to see the fees on HECS and aren&#039;t clamouring for the right to pay more because of their attachment to market ideology!

The other factor with the &quot;education revolution&quot; is that there were some very strong hints given by Stephen Smith, Gillard and Rudd himself to people in the university sector that had the decision not been made to undercut Howard at the policy launch and call for a hault to the spendathon that the missing &quot;chapter&quot; was going to be buckets of money for universities. There&#039;s been a strong expectation that will be forthcoming - I think all that&#039;s given people pause is the state of the budget now. But I&#039;m sure there&#039;ll be a fair bit outlayed. The real test is whether the government will use Bradley to resist turning the thing into a dogs breakfast which tries to satisfy all the self-interested demands of the various groups of universities. Hopefully not - and again, the signals were that the whole point of Bradley was to shift the terms of the debate away from where they&#039;d been stuck for a number of years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, that&#8217;s right, Labor Outsider &#8211; the &#8220;classical liberal&#8221; vote isn&#8217;t a big one and the well off parents of kids doing law at sandstones or whatever are quite happy to see the fees on HECS and aren&#8217;t clamouring for the right to pay more because of their attachment to market ideology!</p>
<p>The other factor with the &#8220;education revolution&#8221; is that there were some very strong hints given by Stephen Smith, Gillard and Rudd himself to people in the university sector that had the decision not been made to undercut Howard at the policy launch and call for a hault to the spendathon that the missing &#8220;chapter&#8221; was going to be buckets of money for universities. There&#8217;s been a strong expectation that will be forthcoming &#8211; I think all that&#8217;s given people pause is the state of the budget now. But I&#8217;m sure there&#8217;ll be a fair bit outlayed. The real test is whether the government will use Bradley to resist turning the thing into a dogs breakfast which tries to satisfy all the self-interested demands of the various groups of universities. Hopefully not &#8211; and again, the signals were that the whole point of Bradley was to shift the terms of the debate away from where they&#8217;d been stuck for a number of years.</p>
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		<title>By: Labor Outsider</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/comment-page-1/#comment-583968</link>
		<dc:creator>Labor Outsider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 13:12:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2008/12/18/pay-attention-to-the-review-this-time/#comment-583968</guid>
		<description>Mark, I agree with that - economic liberals would choke on their cornflakes at the thought of Rudd being associated with their principles. Indeed, Rudd is an unabashed advocate of industry policy - as seen in recent assistance measures for the automotive sector. Populist (as they see it) is a better description.

Back to education though - another constraint for Rudd is his advocacy of an &quot;Education Revolution&quot; - I think we&#039;d all agree that what we have seen so far doesn&#039;t add up to that - so there will be some pressure for him to deliver policies over the next few years that measure up to the rhetoric.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark, I agree with that &#8211; economic liberals would choke on their cornflakes at the thought of Rudd being associated with their principles. Indeed, Rudd is an unabashed advocate of industry policy &#8211; as seen in recent assistance measures for the automotive sector. Populist (as they see it) is a better description.</p>
<p>Back to education though &#8211; another constraint for Rudd is his advocacy of an &#8220;Education Revolution&#8221; &#8211; I think we&#8217;d all agree that what we have seen so far doesn&#8217;t add up to that &#8211; so there will be some pressure for him to deliver policies over the next few years that measure up to the rhetoric.</p>
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