Comments on: Eyeless in Gaza

By: Mark

Mark — Mon, 05 Jan 2009 00:49:47 +0000

I made the point above that this is actually what the Israelis want – so the suggestion doesn’t originate with The Australian.

Anyway, since there have been a few requests, I’ll close this thread and start a new one.

Update: The new thread is here:

http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/05/eyeless-in-gaza-ii/

By: Down and Out of Sài Gòn

Down and Out of Sài Gòn — Mon, 05 Jan 2009 00:24:50 +0000

Question 4 (to add to Katz’s) – why would the Gazans want to be part of Egypt?

By: Katz

Katz — Sun, 04 Jan 2009 23:56:35 +0000

From the John Lyons article referred to by Rob:

Gaza being forced to become part of Egypt – to abandon its weapons and link with the Egyptian economy – is perhaps the only sustainable hope for this tiny, tragic strip of land.

Three questions:

1. “Forced” by whom?

2. What would be the nature of this magical force?

3. Why on earth would Egypt want Gaza?

By: Rob

Rob — Sun, 04 Jan 2009 23:41:07 +0000

John Lyons in this morning's Oz re-floats the idea of Gaza being returned to Egypt.

By: Paul Burns

Paul Burns — Sun, 04 Jan 2009 23:24:46 +0000

I don’t agree with Hamas firing rockets at Israeli civilians. (Israel can kill as many Hamas militants as it likes, and Hamas can kill as many Israeli soldiers as it likes – that’s what happens to soldiers, and let’s face it, on both sides, whatever else they are, they’re varietries of a defence/offence force.)
What gets to me is the indiscriminate bombing of women and children, of mosques, (you’re not supposed to bomb places of worship – I know people don’t take much notice of it in modern warfare, but among other things places of worship are places of sanctuary for civilians as well as places of prayer.)
Its all very cliched, but the end result of all this is going to be that neither side wins, and we’re going to have a lot of traumatized kids, in whom the mutual hate will just live on.
There’s little point for me in debating the rights and wrongs of this – both sides are wrong, the Israelis infinitely more so because of their use of disproportionate force, and, at the risk of sounding really boring,their use of collective punishment on the Gazans as a whole.
Somehow the whole damn thing just has to stop for good.
I know the above is very simplistic, and probably doesn’t take account of the infinite permutations of Israeli and Palestinian politics, but really, surely that is what has to happen.

By: yeti

yeti — Sun, 04 Jan 2009 23:10:26 +0000

The Gaza Strip

By: Rob

Rob — Sun, 04 Jan 2009 22:59:14 +0000

Katz – I pretty much agree with what you say @ 416. The West Bank settlements are a major obstacle. The settlers are a pretty noxious lot (or many of them are) and they are deeply unpopular with mainstream Israelis. I think Olmert did the right thing a couple of months ago by telling them they had to psychologically prepare for the fact that one day they will have to return to Israel (although I think they should have the option of remaining in any new Palestine as Jewish citizens of the Palestinian state).

By: yeti

yeti — Sun, 04 Jan 2009 22:49:51 +0000

It’s not even about Hamas (which Israel helped establish), since the blockade was in force before Hamas was elected, and the election of Hamas has not in any way changed Israeli policy regarding anything to do with Palestine!! If they fight back, if they don’t fight back, it doesn’t matter. Eretz Israel will take what it wants, and the Palestinians will live like caged rats.

By: yeti

yeti — Sun, 04 Jan 2009 22:47:01 +0000

Hamas has shown at least as much willingness to allow Israel to exist within its internationally recognized border as the Israeli government (of any party) has shown to allow Palestine to exist within its internationally recognized borders. Let’s stop with the double standards. If the Israelis were enduring what the Palestinians are enduring they’d be fighting back just as hard, and then some. And we’d all be supporting them wholeheartedly.

By: Katz

Katz — Sun, 04 Jan 2009 22:32:27 +0000

Nothing but the destruction of Israel will satisfy Hamas and elements of the media, and any accessions are just incremental gains in that objective, viwed as signs of weakness, and reaffirmation for Hamas that their objectives are righteous and align with Allah. How do you negotiate with that?

This is a textbook case of the perils of living in the eternal present.

The influence of Islamism on the population of Palestine is very recent. Until the arrival of Hamas all major parties and factions in Palestine were secularist.

Hamas arose from the ashes of the failure of the PLO.

What caused that failure?

1. The kleptocratic leadership of the PLO which used the great cause of combatting Israel as a blind for their own corruption. Israel is not to blame for this.

2. Israeli humiliation of the secularist leadership of the Palestinian Authority. In the light of that humiliation, Hamas appeared to many Palestinians, and not only those living in the Gaza Strip, as the only way forward. Israeli arrogance helped to create this situation.

Israel can negotiate with that by giving respect to Palestinian enemies of Hamas. Instead of humiliating them and making them enablers of genocide, allow Fatah to claim some genuine achievement of the just demands of Palestinians. And the most immediate of those is illegal Jewish settlements on Palestinian land.

Of course, it can be argued that the governing classes of Israel want and need Hamas to exist as a credible threat in order to discipline their own population in Israel. Thus, as I suggested way upthread, Hamas and the Israeli Right are in a toxic co-dependency relationship.