” …and this war is being judged by the world, under international law, to be illegal.”

You mean that it is by some OpEd’ists, and you agree with them.

No, it was actually by an unequivocal World Court ruling in 2004.

“I” don’t need to – there’s credible international observers in the form of the UN and the International Red Cross both charging that Israel has violated the rules of war, and a consensus around the world mirroring the same. The ‘Op-eds’ from informed commentators from Europe, Australia, from within Israel and now even from the WSJ are all saying the same thing. Certainly Israel is in violation of jus in bello and more are questioning whether it even meets the criteria of just ad bellum.

For a definition of proportionality, something you have a lovely neo-con ‘understanding’ of, try here, and I would recommend reading all the articles relating to the Palestinian conflict on the same site.

this excellent summary from the BBC also brings together expert opinion on the severe flaws (putting it nicely) in Israel’s definition of legitimate targets in the current Gazan conflict, and proportionate use of force.

As to how to stop the rocket attacks, not an easy ask, and here the Israelis living with that terror and uncertainty have my total sympathy. Katz’s points about electing a government actively committed to peace would be a good start. Also, Israel needs to end the illegal occupation of Palestinian lands as decreed by the UN, and stop illegal settlements, cease building at the very least the illegal ’security wall’ and end of the blockade of Palestinian territories and collective group punishments such as turning off the water supply.

From that position of moral authority and good faith, it can then get a UN resolution condemning Hamas & the other fringe Palestinian groups that always seem to get forgotten, but are in fact also firing rockets and have committed the few violations there were of the ceasefire according to most accounts. Israel could look for UN intervention (physical) to prevent the rocket attacks.

This would also demonstrate clearly to the Palestinian people that there is another option for the peace they want, other than supporting the extremist elements such as Hamas. AS has been seen over the recent couple of weeks, many if not most Palestinians don’t want Hamas, what they want is peace. But while Israel keeps providing reasons for Palestinian youth in particular to listen to extremist groups, the rocket attacks won’t stop.

Israeli action as outlined above will also lay a just cause of precision military action if necessary – although as has now been shown time and again, the very nature of the rocket attacks makes military action a completely ineffective response, and causes unacceptable loss of civilian lives.

Israel was in ’secret’ negotiations with Syria, which was a very positive sign towards pressuring it and Iran to stop funding Hamas & other extremists. These negotiations need to be re-instigated as a matter of urgency. Jordan has played a very constructive role in recent years supporting moves towards a negotiated peace, and could be used more effectively too.

But as a matter of interest, what do you think Israel should have done to curtail the rocket attacks on its territory and citizens? You’re very full of what it shouldn’t have done.

OK, let’s have a go at this.

Israel’s problems begin in Israel.

Governments of Israel speak for the sovereignty that is Israel. This is self-evident, but incomplete.

Governments of Israel also speak for the sentiments and aspirations of groups that support it.

Governments of Israel also attempt to represent the interests of those groups by pursuing policies that are calculated to achieve the long-term interests of those groups even though these policies seem to contradict the sentiments and aspirations of the groups that support the government.

(Forgive this long-winded prologue, but it is necessary to acknowledge the importance of the fact that Israel is a representative democracy containing large groups who are deeply divided over many aspects of public affairs, not the least of which are foreign and military policy.)

It is true to say that the parties that are more inclined to seek a negotiated settlement with Palestinians have declined in popularity and influence during the last 20 years. Messianic and chauvinist parties have risen in popularity and influence.

Uppermost in the minds of the Olmert government has been the problem of how to prevent the further rise of messianics and chauvinists. Tragically, the Centrists who support Olmert have attempted to forestall them by hi-jacking rightist policies and by pursuing them (particularly ineptly, as it has turned out).

So what should “Israel” (that is, the present government of Israel) do? They should be true to their own principles. Rather than pander to messianics and chauvinists, they should demonstrate to Palestinians that they are willing to address their just demands. In that way Palestinians may be persuaded to accept the truth that voting for extremists like Hamas is not in their interests. Does that mean that the government of Israel should pursue a policy of unilateral pacifism? Of course not.

At the very least, Israeli Centrists need to explain why it is better for Israelis to vote for them rather than for messianics or chauvinists. At present Israeli Centrists appear to be noting more than incompetent copy-cats of the Right.

If that is all Centrists can do, they may as well disband themselves.

Hamas’ rocket attacks are simply symptoms of a larger disorder. If a military solution were possible, then it might be supportable, even if the IDF pursued disproportionate methods. But a military solution is not possible. Therefore, a political rapprochement, perhaps along the lines outlined above, is the only path towards a solution.

There’s that “disproportionate” word again.

And here’s a summary of its proof Peter TB, a ratio of around 110:1

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123154826952369919.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Since firing the first Kassam rocket into Israel in 2002, Hamas and other Palestinian groups have loosed thousands of rockets and mortar shells into Israel, causing about two dozen Israeli deaths and widespread fear. As indiscriminate attacks on civilians, these were war crimes. During roughly the same period, Israeli forces killed about 2,700 Palestinians in Gaza by targeted killings, aerial bombings, in raids, etc., according to the Israeli human rights group B’Tselem.

” …and this war is being judged by the world, under international law, to be illegal.”

You mean that it is by some OpEd’ists, and you agree with them.

We’ve done the LOAC thing before, and you have not been able to demonstrate that it is not abiding by it.

But as a matter of interest, what do you think Israel should have done to curtail the rocket attacks on its territory and citizens? You’re very full of what it shouldn’t have done.

have a read of the Wall Street Journal’s Op-ed on the current war, accusing Israel of an illegal war of aggression and several war crimes. You’ll find it on the Gaza – War Propoganda thread.

What you and others such as Rob and Despipis don’t seem to get is that International “War Law” does define proportionality, and Israel has comprehensively failed that test. It has instigated an illegal war of aggression. Illegal = not justified.

You and I can and others can bicker all day about what is an appropriate response to Hamas’ illegal rocket attacks. It won’t change the fact that in the real world, Israel’s response was a bloody war that is massacring civilians – and Israel stands accused of deliberately targeting civilians – and this war is being judged by the world, under international law, to be illegal.

Only the USA, once again, is standing in the way of Israel being targeted for sanctions. And I might add that the support for Israel’s war here in Australia from the major parties is also shameful.

No doubt the IDF would have a fair idea, but they aren’t likely to be spruiking that particular detail.

There’s that “disproportionate” word again. I still haven’t seen anyone define what they think a proportionate response would be to more than 8,000 misiles and mortars fired by HAMAS since the Israelis withdrew from Gaza.

Your thoughts Peter K?

Though (sad to say) a more important document has come out. Thanks to Richard Silverstein over at Tikun Olam for this one in, of all places,TIME Magazine.

Richard also has links to several Op-Eds that popped up in the NYTs, including one by, OMG!, a Palestinian, Rashid Khalidi. Well worth a read.

You have to do it the way we on ‘the left’ support Palestinians – defend every action by Hamas, always find that Hamas has acted correctly and faithfully repaeat all Hamas Ministry of Foreign Affairs talking points at every opportunity…………..though I’m still waiting for my Hamas MFA email inviting me to part of their “network of volunteers” to “balance the media”, and to tell me what the talking points are.

Navi Pillay, the UN high commissioner for human rights, singled out the killing this week of up to 30 Palestinians in Zeitoun, south-east of Gaza City, when Israel shelled a house where its troops had told about 110 civilians to take shelter.

Pillay, a former international criminal court judge from South Africa, told the BBC the incident “appears to have all the elements of war crimes”. She called for “credible, independent and transparent” investigations into possible violations of humanitarian law.

(The photo at the top of that link is highly disturbing.)

From the smh

Yesterday the UN Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs said witnesses had accused Israeli forces of what they called “one of the gravest incidents since the beginning of operations”.

The UN said that “according to several testimonies, on January 4 Israeli foot soldiers evacuated approximately 110 Palestinians – half of whom were children – into a single-residence house in Zeitoun, warning them to stay indoors. Twenty-four hours later Israeli forces shelled the home repeatedly, killing approximately 30.

I don’t think the Israeli government is going to win a propagana victory with these obscenities broadcast far and wide. Hamas can win by simply surviving.

Mark, you’ve obviously missed John Ryan’s comments at 49 and 80 where he rather amusingly suggests that anyone – especially Rob – that doesn’t follow the HAMAS line must be in the pay of the Jews.

Ironically, later in the thread yeti comes up with a bunch of anti-Israel links from the media which tends to cast some doubt on the effectivenes of the Jewish control of the agenda.

(7) Israel continues the occupation of Gaza by maintaining complete control of all borders, including its seaward border onto international waters, with arbitrary regulation of the movement of people and goods.

How does Israel control the Gaza border with Egypt?

10) Hamas and other Palestinian resistance organizations continue to fight the horrible oppression of their people in the only way they have: by firing home-made rockets 5-15km into Israeli territory. These rockets cause little damage and few injuries and fatalities, but serve admirably in reminding Israelis of the injustices they are committing in Gaza. I suspect that the constant reminders of guilt are as important a reason for Israeli anger as the death and destruction.

That may well be the honest intent of those firing the rockets, but wouldn’t another side effect would be to maintain and increase the level of fear of ordinary Israelis of those across the border, making it less likely that border restrictions would be relaxed? Eg fear that if they are able to fire those sorts of rockets with the borders closed, what will they be able to do with open borders?

Mark @ 87 – not particularly surprising really. There’s a big propaganda war going on out there and I’m sure both sides are doing their best to push their point of view out there any way they can – twitter feeds, even protests (and perhaps some useful debates) in virtual worlds like Second Life.