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	<title>Comments on: Eyeless in Gaza V: Propaganda 2.0</title>
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	<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/</link>
	<description>Life, Culture and Politics from BrisVegas</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 06:50:42 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-179621</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:02:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-179621</guid>
		<description>I reckon so, Nabakov.  Your gift for invective far outreaches mine, and that&#039;s a compliment. Honour is due.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I reckon so, Nabakov.  Your gift for invective far outreaches mine, and that&#8217;s a compliment. Honour is due.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-179620</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:01:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-179620</guid>
		<description>Anyway, 300 comments probably means time for another thread.

http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/13/eyeless-in-gaza-vi/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anyway, 300 comments probably means time for another thread.</p>
<p><a href="http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/13/eyeless-in-gaza-vi/" rel="nofollow">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/13/eyeless-in-gaza-vi/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-179619</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:00:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-179619</guid>
		<description>Just to clarify that, while I&#039;m glad that we&#039;ve been able to discuss all this without too much acrimony, I&#039;m not sure that reflecting on the contribution of particular commenters does anything other than encourage people to personalise the discussion, which I&#039;d like to avoid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to clarify that, while I&#8217;m glad that we&#8217;ve been able to discuss all this without too much acrimony, I&#8217;m not sure that reflecting on the contribution of particular commenters does anything other than encourage people to personalise the discussion, which I&#8217;d like to avoid.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-179618</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:55:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-179618</guid>
		<description>Yes, ok, thanks, Nabs, but I don&#039;t know that meta-commentary is all that helpful either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, ok, thanks, Nabs, but I don&#8217;t know that meta-commentary is all that helpful either.</p>
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		<title>By: Nabakov</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-179617</link>
		<dc:creator>Nabakov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:37:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-179617</guid>
		<description>I just wanna echo other comments here that, regardless of what you think of his arguments, Rob has been consistently calm and collected in the face of some serious provocation.

Am I the only the only person on the blogosphere who has actually goaded Rob into losing it? Not that I particularly sport that as a badge of pride but more to point out to the likes of yeti that your crude abuse is well...crude. And abusive. Neither cool or subtle. Or effective.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just wanna echo other comments here that, regardless of what you think of his arguments, Rob has been consistently calm and collected in the face of some serious provocation.</p>
<p>Am I the only the only person on the blogosphere who has actually goaded Rob into losing it? Not that I particularly sport that as a badge of pride but more to point out to the likes of yeti that your crude abuse is well&#8230;crude. And abusive. Neither cool or subtle. Or effective.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-179616</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:47:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-179616</guid>
		<description>smokey @ 294.  This is just a propaganda video. Nowhere in the text you cited, nor in the accompanying video footage, does anyone claim the Israelis were responsible for the firing (if any in fact occurred - informed observers are well are aware of the phenomenon of &#039;Pallywood&#039;).  Nor is there any evidence of such Israeli fire.  All there is actual evidence of is that there was gunfire.  If I&#039;m wrong, please correct me.

I would also point out that this video is sourced from the International Solidarity Movement, a virulently anti-Israeli NGO.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>smokey @ 294.  This is just a propaganda video. Nowhere in the text you cited, nor in the accompanying video footage, does anyone claim the Israelis were responsible for the firing (if any in fact occurred &#8211; informed observers are well are aware of the phenomenon of &#8216;Pallywood&#8217;).  Nor is there any evidence of such Israeli fire.  All there is actual evidence of is that there was gunfire.  If I&#8217;m wrong, please correct me.</p>
<p>I would also point out that this video is sourced from the International Solidarity Movement, a virulently anti-Israeli NGO.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Kemp</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-179615</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Kemp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:19:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-179615</guid>
		<description>Smokey @ 274.
In answer to your question, one operative law (but not exclusively so) is Common Article 3 in the 4th Convention &lt;em&gt;&quot;relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War. Geneva, 12 August 1949.&quot;&lt;/em&gt;

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/FULL/380?OpenDocument

&lt;blockquote&gt;Art. 3. In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following
provisions:

(1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction....

To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:
(a) violence to life and person, &lt;strong&gt;in particular murder of all kinds*,&lt;/strong&gt; mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;...&lt;/blockquote&gt;

(Note that in &lt;em&gt;Hamdan v Rumsfeld&lt;/em&gt;, the US Supreme Court held that Common Article 3 could not be derogated from and Gitmo inmates were entitled to those minimum protections.)

*Murder of all kinds includes attempted murder. On the material presented,and if correct, the perpetrators have a &lt;em&gt;prima facie&lt;/em&gt; case to answer for a war crime under common article 3.

Note that common article 3 is so universally accepted that it is now regarded as customary international law

Such an attempted murder, if proven, would be in breach of customary international law (CIL) and also within the remit of the International Criminal Court which has adopted in its charter CIL. (But I don&#039;t believe Israel is a signatory member- not that that would stop a prosecution for Israelis {or Hamas members for that matter}, in ICC member nations.)

Article 20 in the 4th Convention also applies:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Art. 20. Persons regularly and solely engaged in the operation and administration of civilian hospitals, including the personnel engaged in the search for, removal and transporting of and caring for wounded and sick civilians, the infirm and maternity cases shall be respected and protected.

In occupied territory and in zones of military operations, the above personnel shall be recognizable by means of an identity card certifying their status,...[etc etc],&lt;/blockquote&gt;

By that evidence, if correct, such an attempted murder specifically of legitimate ambulance workers would also place the perpetrators in a position of having a &lt;em&gt;prima facie&lt;/em&gt; case to answer for a war crime under Art 20.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Smokey @ 274.<br />
In answer to your question, one operative law (but not exclusively so) is Common Article 3 in the 4th Convention <em>&#8220;relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War. Geneva, 12 August 1949.&#8221;</em></p>
<p><a href="http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/FULL/380?OpenDocument" rel="nofollow">http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/FULL/380?OpenDocument</a></p>
<blockquote><p>Art. 3. In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following<br />
provisions:</p>
<p>(1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction&#8230;.</p>
<p>To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:<br />
(a) violence to life and person, <strong>in particular murder of all kinds*,</strong> mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<p>(Note that in <em>Hamdan v Rumsfeld</em>, the US Supreme Court held that Common Article 3 could not be derogated from and Gitmo inmates were entitled to those minimum protections.)</p>
<p>*Murder of all kinds includes attempted murder. On the material presented,and if correct, the perpetrators have a <em>prima facie</em> case to answer for a war crime under common article 3.</p>
<p>Note that common article 3 is so universally accepted that it is now regarded as customary international law</p>
<p>Such an attempted murder, if proven, would be in breach of customary international law (CIL) and also within the remit of the International Criminal Court which has adopted in its charter CIL. (But I don&#8217;t believe Israel is a signatory member- not that that would stop a prosecution for Israelis {or Hamas members for that matter}, in ICC member nations.)</p>
<p>Article 20 in the 4th Convention also applies:</p>
<blockquote><p>Art. 20. Persons regularly and solely engaged in the operation and administration of civilian hospitals, including the personnel engaged in the search for, removal and transporting of and caring for wounded and sick civilians, the infirm and maternity cases shall be respected and protected.</p>
<p>In occupied territory and in zones of military operations, the above personnel shall be recognizable by means of an identity card certifying their status,&#8230;[etc etc],</p></blockquote>
<p>By that evidence, if correct, such an attempted murder specifically of legitimate ambulance workers would also place the perpetrators in a position of having a <em>prima facie</em> case to answer for a war crime under Art 20.</p>
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		<title>By: smokey</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-179614</link>
		<dc:creator>smokey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:15:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-179614</guid>
		<description>Rob @ 281.

Perhaps it was a Hamas missile gone astray?

Really mate, you&#039;re grabbing at straws. If this was one story on it&#039;s own, you might have a point in suggesting it wasn&#039;t an Israeli sniper. Given the very recent history however of multiple reports of ambulances being fired on by Israel, the fact that the first hand witness there said it was an Israeli sniper, and that it was &quot;near the area which has been occupied by Israeli soldiers since the land invasion began&quot;, I&#039;d be putting the doubt on the IDF.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rob @ 281.</p>
<p>Perhaps it was a Hamas missile gone astray?</p>
<p>Really mate, you&#8217;re grabbing at straws. If this was one story on it&#8217;s own, you might have a point in suggesting it wasn&#8217;t an Israeli sniper. Given the very recent history however of multiple reports of ambulances being fired on by Israel, the fact that the first hand witness there said it was an Israeli sniper, and that it was &#8220;near the area which has been occupied by Israeli soldiers since the land invasion began&#8221;, I&#8217;d be putting the doubt on the IDF.</p>
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		<title>By: yeti</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-179613</link>
		<dc:creator>yeti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 10:46:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-179613</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/13/israeli-forces-enter-gaza-city&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;
Israeli forces close in on Gaza City (Guardian)&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;
Israeli tanks fought their way into the suburbs of Gaza City for the first time today after a night of intense bombing.

Heavy fighting was reported in Tel al-Hawa, in the south of the city, where tanks and attack helicopters could be heard under waves of heavy air strikes and artillery bombardments. Several buildings were on fire, and clouds of thick black smoke hung over the city. Residents said they had endured one of the heaviest nights of bombing in Israel&#039;s 18-day offensive.

Palestinian health officials said they had received dozens of calls for ambulances to the south of the city, but it was too dangerous to send them. A number of Israeli soldiers were reportedly injured overnight, three of them mistakenly hit by their own troops.

The death toll on the Palestinian side stands at 910, among them 292 children and 75 women, according to the Palestinian health ministry.

More than 4,250 have been injured, of whom around a half are women and children. On the Israeli side 13 people have died, including three civilians.

More and more Gazans were fleeing their homes to seek shelter wherever they could. At least 28,000 are now holed up in UN schools operating as emergency shelters. More than 2,000 of them fled on Sunday alone, from Gaza City and Khan Yunis, to the south. Thousands more are staying with relatives or friends.

The UN said there were shortages of several basic foods, including food for infants and malnourished children, and there were increasing risks of epidemic outbreaks, because of disrupted vaccinations, uncollected rubbish on the street and unsafe drinking water....&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/13/israeli-forces-enter-gaza-city" rel="nofollow"><br />
Israeli forces close in on Gaza City (Guardian)</a></p>
<blockquote><p>
Israeli tanks fought their way into the suburbs of Gaza City for the first time today after a night of intense bombing.</p>
<p>Heavy fighting was reported in Tel al-Hawa, in the south of the city, where tanks and attack helicopters could be heard under waves of heavy air strikes and artillery bombardments. Several buildings were on fire, and clouds of thick black smoke hung over the city. Residents said they had endured one of the heaviest nights of bombing in Israel&#8217;s 18-day offensive.</p>
<p>Palestinian health officials said they had received dozens of calls for ambulances to the south of the city, but it was too dangerous to send them. A number of Israeli soldiers were reportedly injured overnight, three of them mistakenly hit by their own troops.</p>
<p>The death toll on the Palestinian side stands at 910, among them 292 children and 75 women, according to the Palestinian health ministry.</p>
<p>More than 4,250 have been injured, of whom around a half are women and children. On the Israeli side 13 people have died, including three civilians.</p>
<p>More and more Gazans were fleeing their homes to seek shelter wherever they could. At least 28,000 are now holed up in UN schools operating as emergency shelters. More than 2,000 of them fled on Sunday alone, from Gaza City and Khan Yunis, to the south. Thousands more are staying with relatives or friends.</p>
<p>The UN said there were shortages of several basic foods, including food for infants and malnourished children, and there were increasing risks of epidemic outbreaks, because of disrupted vaccinations, uncollected rubbish on the street and unsafe drinking water&#8230;.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-179612</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 10:44:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-179612</guid>
		<description>yeti @ 289.  &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/world/middleeast/11hamas.html?_r=1&amp;ref=world&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Yes, indeed&lt;/a&gt;:

&quot;A new Israeli weapon, meanwhile, is tailored to the Hamas tactic of asking civilians to stand on the roofs of buildings so Israeli pilots will not bomb. The Israelis are countering with a missile designed, paradoxically, not to explode. They aim the missiles at empty areas of the roofs to frighten residents into leaving the buildings, a tactic called “a knock on the roof.”&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yeti @ 289.  <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/world/middleeast/11hamas.html?_r=1&amp;ref=world" rel="nofollow">Yes, indeed</a>:</p>
<p>&#8220;A new Israeli weapon, meanwhile, is tailored to the Hamas tactic of asking civilians to stand on the roofs of buildings so Israeli pilots will not bomb. The Israelis are countering with a missile designed, paradoxically, not to explode. They aim the missiles at empty areas of the roofs to frighten residents into leaving the buildings, a tactic called “a knock on the roof.”&#8221;</p>
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