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	<title>Comments on: Eyeless in Gaza V: Propaganda 2.0</title>
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	<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/</link>
	<description>Blogging politics, culture, sociology and life from Brisvegas</description>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/comment-page-7/#comment-608624</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:02:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-608624</guid>
		<description>I reckon so, Nabakov.  Your gift for invective far outreaches mine, and that&#039;s a compliment. Honour is due.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I reckon so, Nabakov.  Your gift for invective far outreaches mine, and that&#8217;s a compliment. Honour is due.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/comment-page-6/#comment-608623</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:01:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-608623</guid>
		<description>Anyway, 300 comments probably means time for another thread.

http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/13/eyeless-in-gaza-vi/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anyway, 300 comments probably means time for another thread.</p>
<p><a href="http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/13/eyeless-in-gaza-vi/" rel="nofollow">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/13/eyeless-in-gaza-vi/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/comment-page-6/#comment-608622</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:00:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-608622</guid>
		<description>Just to clarify that, while I&#039;m glad that we&#039;ve been able to discuss all this without too much acrimony, I&#039;m not sure that reflecting on the contribution of particular commenters does anything other than encourage people to personalise the discussion, which I&#039;d like to avoid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to clarify that, while I&#8217;m glad that we&#8217;ve been able to discuss all this without too much acrimony, I&#8217;m not sure that reflecting on the contribution of particular commenters does anything other than encourage people to personalise the discussion, which I&#8217;d like to avoid.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/comment-page-6/#comment-608618</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:55:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-608618</guid>
		<description>Yes, ok, thanks, Nabs, but I don&#039;t know that meta-commentary is all that helpful either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, ok, thanks, Nabs, but I don&#8217;t know that meta-commentary is all that helpful either.</p>
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		<title>By: Nabakov</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/comment-page-6/#comment-608608</link>
		<dc:creator>Nabakov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:37:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-608608</guid>
		<description>I just wanna echo other comments here that, regardless of what you think of his arguments, Rob has been consistently calm and collected in the face of some serious provocation.

Am I the only the only person on the blogosphere who has actually goaded Rob into losing it? Not that I particularly sport that as a badge of pride but more to point out to the likes of yeti that your crude abuse is well...crude. And abusive. Neither cool or subtle. Or effective.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just wanna echo other comments here that, regardless of what you think of his arguments, Rob has been consistently calm and collected in the face of some serious provocation.</p>
<p>Am I the only the only person on the blogosphere who has actually goaded Rob into losing it? Not that I particularly sport that as a badge of pride but more to point out to the likes of yeti that your crude abuse is well&#8230;crude. And abusive. Neither cool or subtle. Or effective.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/comment-page-6/#comment-608574</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:47:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-608574</guid>
		<description>smokey @ 294.  This is just a propaganda video. Nowhere in the text you cited, nor in the accompanying video footage, does anyone claim the Israelis were responsible for the firing (if any in fact occurred - informed observers are well are aware of the phenomenon of &#039;Pallywood&#039;).  Nor is there any evidence of such Israeli fire.  All there is actual evidence of is that there was gunfire.  If I&#039;m wrong, please correct me.

I would also point out that this video is sourced from the International Solidarity Movement, a virulently anti-Israeli NGO.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>smokey @ 294.  This is just a propaganda video. Nowhere in the text you cited, nor in the accompanying video footage, does anyone claim the Israelis were responsible for the firing (if any in fact occurred &#8211; informed observers are well are aware of the phenomenon of &#8216;Pallywood&#8217;).  Nor is there any evidence of such Israeli fire.  All there is actual evidence of is that there was gunfire.  If I&#8217;m wrong, please correct me.</p>
<p>I would also point out that this video is sourced from the International Solidarity Movement, a virulently anti-Israeli NGO.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Kemp</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/comment-page-6/#comment-608537</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Kemp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:19:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-608537</guid>
		<description>Smokey @ 274. 
In answer to your question, one operative law (but not exclusively so) is Common Article 3 in the 4th Convention &lt;em&gt;&quot;relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War. Geneva, 12 August 1949.&quot;&lt;/em&gt;

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/FULL/380?OpenDocument

&lt;blockquote&gt;Art. 3. In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following
provisions:

(1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction....

To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:
(a) violence to life and person, &lt;strong&gt;in particular murder of all kinds*,&lt;/strong&gt; mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;...&lt;/blockquote&gt;

(Note that in &lt;em&gt;Hamdan v Rumsfeld&lt;/em&gt;, the US Supreme Court held that Common Article 3 could not be derogated from and Gitmo inmates were entitled to those minimum protections.)

*Murder of all kinds includes attempted murder. On the material presented,and if correct, the perpetrators have a &lt;em&gt;prima facie&lt;/em&gt; case to answer for a war crime under common article 3. 

Note that common article 3 is so universally accepted that it is now regarded as customary international law

Such an attempted murder, if proven, would be in breach of customary international law (CIL) and also within the remit of the International Criminal Court which has adopted in its charter CIL. (But I don&#039;t believe Israel is a signatory member- not that that would stop a prosecution for Israelis {or Hamas members for that matter}, in ICC member nations.)

Article 20 in the 4th Convention also applies:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Art. 20. Persons regularly and solely engaged in the operation and administration of civilian hospitals, including the personnel engaged in the search for, removal and transporting of and caring for wounded and sick civilians, the infirm and maternity cases shall be respected and protected.

In occupied territory and in zones of military operations, the above personnel shall be recognizable by means of an identity card certifying their status,...[etc etc],&lt;/blockquote&gt; 

By that evidence, if correct, such an attempted murder specifically of legitimate ambulance workers would also place the perpetrators in a position of having a &lt;em&gt;prima facie&lt;/em&gt; case to answer for a war crime under Art 20.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Smokey @ 274.<br />
In answer to your question, one operative law (but not exclusively so) is Common Article 3 in the 4th Convention <em>&#8220;relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War. Geneva, 12 August 1949.&#8221;</em></p>
<p><a href="http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/FULL/380?OpenDocument" rel="nofollow">http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/FULL/380?OpenDocument</a></p>
<blockquote><p>Art. 3. In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following<br />
provisions:</p>
<p>(1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction&#8230;.</p>
<p>To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:<br />
(a) violence to life and person, <strong>in particular murder of all kinds*,</strong> mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<p>(Note that in <em>Hamdan v Rumsfeld</em>, the US Supreme Court held that Common Article 3 could not be derogated from and Gitmo inmates were entitled to those minimum protections.)</p>
<p>*Murder of all kinds includes attempted murder. On the material presented,and if correct, the perpetrators have a <em>prima facie</em> case to answer for a war crime under common article 3. </p>
<p>Note that common article 3 is so universally accepted that it is now regarded as customary international law</p>
<p>Such an attempted murder, if proven, would be in breach of customary international law (CIL) and also within the remit of the International Criminal Court which has adopted in its charter CIL. (But I don&#8217;t believe Israel is a signatory member- not that that would stop a prosecution for Israelis {or Hamas members for that matter}, in ICC member nations.)</p>
<p>Article 20 in the 4th Convention also applies:</p>
<blockquote><p>Art. 20. Persons regularly and solely engaged in the operation and administration of civilian hospitals, including the personnel engaged in the search for, removal and transporting of and caring for wounded and sick civilians, the infirm and maternity cases shall be respected and protected.</p>
<p>In occupied territory and in zones of military operations, the above personnel shall be recognizable by means of an identity card certifying their status,&#8230;[etc etc],</p></blockquote>
<p>By that evidence, if correct, such an attempted murder specifically of legitimate ambulance workers would also place the perpetrators in a position of having a <em>prima facie</em> case to answer for a war crime under Art 20.</p>
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		<title>By: smokey</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/comment-page-6/#comment-608532</link>
		<dc:creator>smokey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:15:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-608532</guid>
		<description>Rob @ 281.

Perhaps it was a Hamas missile gone astray?

Really mate, you&#039;re grabbing at straws. If this was one story on it&#039;s own, you might have a point in suggesting it wasn&#039;t an Israeli sniper. Given the very recent history however of multiple reports of ambulances being fired on by Israel, the fact that the first hand witness there said it was an Israeli sniper, and that it was &quot;near the area which has been occupied by Israeli soldiers since the land invasion began&quot;, I&#039;d be putting the doubt on the IDF.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rob @ 281.</p>
<p>Perhaps it was a Hamas missile gone astray?</p>
<p>Really mate, you&#8217;re grabbing at straws. If this was one story on it&#8217;s own, you might have a point in suggesting it wasn&#8217;t an Israeli sniper. Given the very recent history however of multiple reports of ambulances being fired on by Israel, the fact that the first hand witness there said it was an Israeli sniper, and that it was &#8220;near the area which has been occupied by Israeli soldiers since the land invasion began&#8221;, I&#8217;d be putting the doubt on the IDF.</p>
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		<title>By: yeti</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/comment-page-6/#comment-608511</link>
		<dc:creator>yeti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 10:46:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-608511</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/13/israeli-forces-enter-gaza-city&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;
Israeli forces close in on Gaza City (Guardian)&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;
Israeli tanks fought their way into the suburbs of Gaza City for the first time today after a night of intense bombing.

Heavy fighting was reported in Tel al-Hawa, in the south of the city, where tanks and attack helicopters could be heard under waves of heavy air strikes and artillery bombardments. Several buildings were on fire, and clouds of thick black smoke hung over the city. Residents said they had endured one of the heaviest nights of bombing in Israel&#039;s 18-day offensive.

Palestinian health officials said they had received dozens of calls for ambulances to the south of the city, but it was too dangerous to send them. A number of Israeli soldiers were reportedly injured overnight, three of them mistakenly hit by their own troops.

The death toll on the Palestinian side stands at 910, among them 292 children and 75 women, according to the Palestinian health ministry.

More than 4,250 have been injured, of whom around a half are women and children. On the Israeli side 13 people have died, including three civilians.

More and more Gazans were fleeing their homes to seek shelter wherever they could. At least 28,000 are now holed up in UN schools operating as emergency shelters. More than 2,000 of them fled on Sunday alone, from Gaza City and Khan Yunis, to the south. Thousands more are staying with relatives or friends.

The UN said there were shortages of several basic foods, including food for infants and malnourished children, and there were increasing risks of epidemic outbreaks, because of disrupted vaccinations, uncollected rubbish on the street and unsafe drinking water....&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/13/israeli-forces-enter-gaza-city" rel="nofollow"><br />
Israeli forces close in on Gaza City (Guardian)</a></p>
<blockquote><p>
Israeli tanks fought their way into the suburbs of Gaza City for the first time today after a night of intense bombing.</p>
<p>Heavy fighting was reported in Tel al-Hawa, in the south of the city, where tanks and attack helicopters could be heard under waves of heavy air strikes and artillery bombardments. Several buildings were on fire, and clouds of thick black smoke hung over the city. Residents said they had endured one of the heaviest nights of bombing in Israel&#8217;s 18-day offensive.</p>
<p>Palestinian health officials said they had received dozens of calls for ambulances to the south of the city, but it was too dangerous to send them. A number of Israeli soldiers were reportedly injured overnight, three of them mistakenly hit by their own troops.</p>
<p>The death toll on the Palestinian side stands at 910, among them 292 children and 75 women, according to the Palestinian health ministry.</p>
<p>More than 4,250 have been injured, of whom around a half are women and children. On the Israeli side 13 people have died, including three civilians.</p>
<p>More and more Gazans were fleeing their homes to seek shelter wherever they could. At least 28,000 are now holed up in UN schools operating as emergency shelters. More than 2,000 of them fled on Sunday alone, from Gaza City and Khan Yunis, to the south. Thousands more are staying with relatives or friends.</p>
<p>The UN said there were shortages of several basic foods, including food for infants and malnourished children, and there were increasing risks of epidemic outbreaks, because of disrupted vaccinations, uncollected rubbish on the street and unsafe drinking water&#8230;.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/comment-page-6/#comment-608510</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 10:44:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-608510</guid>
		<description>yeti @ 289.  &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/world/middleeast/11hamas.html?_r=1&amp;ref=world&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Yes, indeed&lt;/a&gt;:

&quot;A new Israeli weapon, meanwhile, is tailored to the Hamas tactic of asking civilians to stand on the roofs of buildings so Israeli pilots will not bomb. The Israelis are countering with a missile designed, paradoxically, not to explode. They aim the missiles at empty areas of the roofs to frighten residents into leaving the buildings, a tactic called “a knock on the roof.”&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yeti @ 289.  <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/world/middleeast/11hamas.html?_r=1&amp;ref=world" rel="nofollow">Yes, indeed</a>:</p>
<p>&#8220;A new Israeli weapon, meanwhile, is tailored to the Hamas tactic of asking civilians to stand on the roofs of buildings so Israeli pilots will not bomb. The Israelis are countering with a missile designed, paradoxically, not to explode. They aim the missiles at empty areas of the roofs to frighten residents into leaving the buildings, a tactic called “a knock on the roof.”&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: yeti</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/comment-page-6/#comment-608508</link>
		<dc:creator>yeti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 10:42:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-608508</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/13/gaza-israel-war-crimes&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Demands grow for Gaza war crimes investigation (Guardian)&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;
Israel is facing growing demands from senior UN officials and human rights groups for an international war crimes investigation in Gaza over allegations such as the &quot;reckless and indiscriminate&quot; shelling of residential areas and use of Palestinian families as human shields by soldiers.

With the death toll from the 17-day Israeli assault on Gaza climbing above 900, pressure is increasing for an independent inquiry into specific incidents, such as the shelling of a UN school turned refugee centre where about 40 people died, as well as the question of whether the military tactics used by Israel systematically breached humanitarian law.

The UN&#039;s senior human rights body approved a resolution yesterday condemning the Israeli offensive for &quot;massive violations of human rights&quot;. A senior UN source said the body&#039;s humanitarian agencies were compiling evidence of war crimes and passing it on to the &quot;highest levels&quot; to be used as seen fit...&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/13/gaza-israel-war-crimes" rel="nofollow">Demands grow for Gaza war crimes investigation (Guardian)</a></p>
<blockquote><p>
Israel is facing growing demands from senior UN officials and human rights groups for an international war crimes investigation in Gaza over allegations such as the &#8220;reckless and indiscriminate&#8221; shelling of residential areas and use of Palestinian families as human shields by soldiers.</p>
<p>With the death toll from the 17-day Israeli assault on Gaza climbing above 900, pressure is increasing for an independent inquiry into specific incidents, such as the shelling of a UN school turned refugee centre where about 40 people died, as well as the question of whether the military tactics used by Israel systematically breached humanitarian law.</p>
<p>The UN&#8217;s senior human rights body approved a resolution yesterday condemning the Israeli offensive for &#8220;massive violations of human rights&#8221;. A senior UN source said the body&#8217;s humanitarian agencies were compiling evidence of war crimes and passing it on to the &#8220;highest levels&#8221; to be used as seen fit&#8230;</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: yeti</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/comment-page-6/#comment-608506</link>
		<dc:creator>yeti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 10:40:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-608506</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/dec/29/gaza-hamas-israel&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;
Gaza: the logic of colonial power (Nir Rosen, Guardian)&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/dec/29/gaza-hamas-israel" rel="nofollow"><br />
Gaza: the logic of colonial power (Nir Rosen, Guardian)</a></p>
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		<title>By: yeti</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/comment-page-6/#comment-608503</link>
		<dc:creator>yeti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 10:37:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-608503</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090112/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictgazanorwayweapons_newsmlmmd&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Israel using Gaza as &#039;test laboratory&#039; for new weapon: medics (AFP)&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;
...&quot;This is a new generation of very powerful small explosives that detonates with an extreme power and dissipates its power within a range of five to 10 metres (16-98 feet),&quot; said Gilbert, 61.

&quot;We have not seen the casualties affected directly by the bomb because they are normally torn to pieces and do not survive, but we have seen a number of very brutal amputations... without shrapnel injuries which we strongly suspect must have been caused by the DIME weapons,&quot; he added.

The weapon &quot;causes the tissue to be torn from the flesh. It looks very different (from a shrapnel injury). I have seen and treated a lot of different injuries for the last 30 years in different war zones, and this looks completely different,&quot; said Fosse, 58.

&quot;If you are in the immediate (vicinity of) a DIME weapon, it&#039;s like your legs get torn off. It&#039;s an enormous pressure wave and there is no shrapnel,&quot; he explained...&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090112/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictgazanorwayweapons_newsmlmmd" rel="nofollow">Israel using Gaza as &#8216;test laboratory&#8217; for new weapon: medics (AFP)</a></p>
<blockquote><p>
&#8230;&#8221;This is a new generation of very powerful small explosives that detonates with an extreme power and dissipates its power within a range of five to 10 metres (16-98 feet),&#8221; said Gilbert, 61.</p>
<p>&#8220;We have not seen the casualties affected directly by the bomb because they are normally torn to pieces and do not survive, but we have seen a number of very brutal amputations&#8230; without shrapnel injuries which we strongly suspect must have been caused by the DIME weapons,&#8221; he added.</p>
<p>The weapon &#8220;causes the tissue to be torn from the flesh. It looks very different (from a shrapnel injury). I have seen and treated a lot of different injuries for the last 30 years in different war zones, and this looks completely different,&#8221; said Fosse, 58.</p>
<p>&#8220;If you are in the immediate (vicinity of) a DIME weapon, it&#8217;s like your legs get torn off. It&#8217;s an enormous pressure wave and there is no shrapnel,&#8221; he explained&#8230;</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/comment-page-6/#comment-608438</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:54:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-608438</guid>
		<description>But @ 263 you said this:

&quot;Not when you have US soldiers patrolling the Egyptian border .... &quot;

 - which implies the US had soldiers in theatre a la UNIFIL.  None of your quotes indicates as much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But @ 263 you said this:</p>
<p>&#8220;Not when you have US soldiers patrolling the Egyptian border &#8230;. &#8221;</p>
<p> &#8211; which implies the US had soldiers in theatre a la UNIFIL.  None of your quotes indicates as much.</p>
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		<title>By: Oz</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/comment-page-6/#comment-608433</link>
		<dc:creator>Oz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:48:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-608433</guid>
		<description>You even read the links, Rob?

&quot;The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers has conducted a series of tours along the eastern Sinai Peninsula.&quot;

&quot;&quot;The U.S. military has been determining manpower and equipment needs to protect these borders from infiltration and terrorism,&quot; an Egyptian source said.&quot;

&quot;On May 21, officers, headed by the U.S. Air Force attache in the U.S. embassy in Cairo, toured Egypt&#039;s borders and inspected the Rafah terminal and Israel&#039;s Keren Shalom facility.&quot;

&quot;Earlier in May, the same delegation visited the Gaza and Israeli borders. At the same time, the U.S. Army was said to have begun training Egyptian officers to stop weapons smuggling and infiltration into Israel and the Gaza Strip.&quot;

&quot;Over the past year, the U.S. has put much pressure on Egypt to improve how it deals with the arms-smuggling into Gaza, an Israeli diplomatic source said. &quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You even read the links, Rob?</p>
<p>&#8220;The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers has conducted a series of tours along the eastern Sinai Peninsula.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8221;The U.S. military has been determining manpower and equipment needs to protect these borders from infiltration and terrorism,&#8221; an Egyptian source said.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;On May 21, officers, headed by the U.S. Air Force attache in the U.S. embassy in Cairo, toured Egypt&#8217;s borders and inspected the Rafah terminal and Israel&#8217;s Keren Shalom facility.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Earlier in May, the same delegation visited the Gaza and Israeli borders. At the same time, the U.S. Army was said to have begun training Egyptian officers to stop weapons smuggling and infiltration into Israel and the Gaza Strip.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Over the past year, the U.S. has put much pressure on Egypt to improve how it deals with the arms-smuggling into Gaza, an Israeli diplomatic source said. &#8220;</p>
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		<title>By: terangeree</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/comment-page-6/#comment-608426</link>
		<dc:creator>terangeree</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:42:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-608426</guid>
		<description>Rob @ 281

Maybe it was a squad of Tamil Tigers with a very poor sense of direction?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rob @ 281</p>
<p>Maybe it was a squad of Tamil Tigers with a very poor sense of direction?</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/comment-page-6/#comment-608397</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:27:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-608397</guid>
		<description>&quot;The fact that US soldiers are on the ground on the border....&quot;

But you have not established that they are. That&#039;s Chris&#039; point, I think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The fact that US soldiers are on the ground on the border&#8230;.&#8221;</p>
<p>But you have not established that they are. That&#8217;s Chris&#8217; point, I think.</p>
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		<title>By: Oz</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/comment-page-6/#comment-608392</link>
		<dc:creator>Oz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:22:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-608392</guid>
		<description>Chris, my initial point was to refute Rob&#039;s assertion that it&#039;s simply up the Egyptians what happens on the border. The fact that US soldiers are on the ground on the border helping look for tunnels and smugglers as well as making routine checks on the border crossings PLUS the threat of financial sanctions PLUS the fact that the Egyptians need to clear any change of personnel numbers with the Israeli&#039;s show that to be an incorrect assertion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris, my initial point was to refute Rob&#8217;s assertion that it&#8217;s simply up the Egyptians what happens on the border. The fact that US soldiers are on the ground on the border helping look for tunnels and smugglers as well as making routine checks on the border crossings PLUS the threat of financial sanctions PLUS the fact that the Egyptians need to clear any change of personnel numbers with the Israeli&#8217;s show that to be an incorrect assertion.</p>
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		<title>By: Adrien</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/comment-page-6/#comment-608389</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:19:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-608389</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;they would look for UN soldiers from a more neutral disinterested country.&lt;/i&gt;
.
Yeah that&#039;s another one of those obvious solutions. But it&#039;s hard to do. Nations won;t give up their sovereignty to the UN. And they&#039;re understandably reluctant to expend the lives of their soldiers trying to get Israel/Palestine&#039;s shit together. 
.
Of nations do contribute peacekeepers for UN missions. But the anecdotes from the field are of muddles in inter-military communications, who&#039;s in command issues etc.
.
Still at least it&#039;s happening so it might develop into something that actually works one day. 
.
But given how someone in the region, of wither side, always insists on creating war on the verge of impending peace I don&#039;t blame anyone who doesn&#039;t wanna touch it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>they would look for UN soldiers from a more neutral disinterested country.</i><br />
.<br />
Yeah that&#8217;s another one of those obvious solutions. But it&#8217;s hard to do. Nations won;t give up their sovereignty to the UN. And they&#8217;re understandably reluctant to expend the lives of their soldiers trying to get Israel/Palestine&#8217;s shit together.<br />
.<br />
Of nations do contribute peacekeepers for UN missions. But the anecdotes from the field are of muddles in inter-military communications, who&#8217;s in command issues etc.<br />
.<br />
Still at least it&#8217;s happening so it might develop into something that actually works one day.<br />
.<br />
But given how someone in the region, of wither side, always insists on creating war on the verge of impending peace I don&#8217;t blame anyone who doesn&#8217;t wanna touch it.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/comment-page-6/#comment-608382</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:13:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/09/eyeless-in-gaza-v-propaganda-20/#comment-608382</guid>
		<description>Oz @ 271 - yes, so its just training and equipment that the US have been supplying, not actually patrolling and stopping the smuggling of weapons themselves. I rather doubt that US troops would be seen as acceptable as part of a cease-fire - they would look for UN soldiers from a more neutral disinterested country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oz @ 271 &#8211; yes, so its just training and equipment that the US have been supplying, not actually patrolling and stopping the smuggling of weapons themselves. I rather doubt that US troops would be seen as acceptable as part of a cease-fire &#8211; they would look for UN soldiers from a more neutral disinterested country.</p>
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