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	<title>Comments on: Bérubé on Sokal</title>
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	<description>Blogging politics, culture, sociology and life from Brisvegas</description>
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		<title>By: Michael Bérubé</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/comment-page-1/#comment-614165</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Bérubé</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jan 2009 16:57:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Way too late to the party, as usual.  But thanks for the kind words, everyone, and for reading my little review in the first place.  Thanks, dk.au, for your exasperation with Steve Fuller, but rest assured that I do not take him as a representative of science studies.  (You&#039;ll note, I hope, that Fuller replied three times to my review at the &lt;em&gt;American Scientist&lt;/em&gt; website -- and did himself a good deal of damage in the process, I think.)  Sorry I couldn&#039;t go into more detail about the Symmetry Principle in that review, but, well, it &lt;em&gt;was&lt;/em&gt; a dead-tree publication, and I was given a limit of 2000 words.  I have, however, written on the subject on my &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.michaelberube.com/index.php/weblog/principle_of_symmetry_day/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;humble blog&lt;/a&gt;.  As you&#039;ll see, I&#039;m a bit more friendly to social constructionism than you make me out to be here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Way too late to the party, as usual.  But thanks for the kind words, everyone, and for reading my little review in the first place.  Thanks, dk.au, for your exasperation with Steve Fuller, but rest assured that I do not take him as a representative of science studies.  (You&#8217;ll note, I hope, that Fuller replied three times to my review at the <em>American Scientist</em> website &#8212; and did himself a good deal of damage in the process, I think.)  Sorry I couldn&#8217;t go into more detail about the Symmetry Principle in that review, but, well, it <em>was</em> a dead-tree publication, and I was given a limit of 2000 words.  I have, however, written on the subject on my <a href="http://www.michaelberube.com/index.php/weblog/principle_of_symmetry_day/" rel="nofollow">humble blog</a>.  As you&#8217;ll see, I&#8217;m a bit more friendly to social constructionism than you make me out to be here.</p>
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		<title>By: klaus k</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/comment-page-1/#comment-605248</link>
		<dc:creator>klaus k</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 09:37:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks for the link, dk.au, I&#039;ll check it out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the link, dk.au, I&#8217;ll check it out.</p>
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		<title>By: marty</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/comment-page-1/#comment-605172</link>
		<dc:creator>marty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 08:19:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/#comment-605172</guid>
		<description>thanks, dk. fair enough.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thanks, dk. fair enough.</p>
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		<title>By: dk.au</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/comment-page-1/#comment-605168</link>
		<dc:creator>dk.au</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 08:14:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/#comment-605168</guid>
		<description>marty@16 - I believe that&#039;s Jasanoff&#039;s reading of Nanda&#039;s interpretation of STS&#039;s work.  Fwiw, I don&#039;t recall who Nanda took aim at - I skim-read the chapter many years ago.  I&#039;d be doing my advocacy of constructivism a disservice if I encouraged &#039;ignorance of who and under what conditions is or is not advocating&#039; &#039;Non-Western Science&#039;!  

klaus@17 - Latour&#039;s interventions are interesting - he had a debate &lt;a href=&quot;http://ec.hku.hk/kd2/debate.asp&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;with Steve Fuller a while back&lt;/a&gt; that&#039;s worth a gander if you want to understand more about their respective approaches.  Latour argued that it&#039;s not the job of science studies scholars to tell people how they should live with technology, nature etc but rather to make public the work of their subjects (science and technology, their proponents and historical context).  Fuller argued for a maintenance of the nature/culture distinction.   Latour countered that &#039;going against the flow&#039; of nature has, historically, been associated with imperialist, colonialist interventions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>marty@16 &#8211; I believe that&#8217;s Jasanoff&#8217;s reading of Nanda&#8217;s interpretation of STS&#8217;s work.  Fwiw, I don&#8217;t recall who Nanda took aim at &#8211; I skim-read the chapter many years ago.  I&#8217;d be doing my advocacy of constructivism a disservice if I encouraged &#8216;ignorance of who and under what conditions is or is not advocating&#8217; &#8216;Non-Western Science&#8217;!  </p>
<p>klaus@17 &#8211; Latour&#8217;s interventions are interesting &#8211; he had a debate <a href="http://ec.hku.hk/kd2/debate.asp" rel="nofollow">with Steve Fuller a while back</a> that&#8217;s worth a gander if you want to understand more about their respective approaches.  Latour argued that it&#8217;s not the job of science studies scholars to tell people how they should live with technology, nature etc but rather to make public the work of their subjects (science and technology, their proponents and historical context).  Fuller argued for a maintenance of the nature/culture distinction.   Latour countered that &#8216;going against the flow&#8217; of nature has, historically, been associated with imperialist, colonialist interventions.</p>
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		<title>By: klaus k</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/comment-page-1/#comment-605137</link>
		<dc:creator>klaus k</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 07:49:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/#comment-605137</guid>
		<description>Had a quick scan of the Demeritt, and it looks interesting. It seems a very useful way of applying Latour - Demeritt has even provided answers to some of the questions I have had about the Latourian approach - especially his parliamentary model - and that&#039;s just on a first read. The conclusion, if justified, is quite a potent intervention, but I need to give it closer attention I think, to be sure.

To return to # 13: Jasanoff correctly identifies something that has always disturbed me, and that is the conflation, in debates of this nature, of the methodological relativism of SSK with all sorts of other things that can be put under the heading &#039;relativism&#039;. It&#039;s the kind of slippage and conflation that occurs all over the place (relativism is just one term so altered) refiguring quite reasonable and justifable claims into monstrous epistemological bugbears.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Had a quick scan of the Demeritt, and it looks interesting. It seems a very useful way of applying Latour &#8211; Demeritt has even provided answers to some of the questions I have had about the Latourian approach &#8211; especially his parliamentary model &#8211; and that&#8217;s just on a first read. The conclusion, if justified, is quite a potent intervention, but I need to give it closer attention I think, to be sure.</p>
<p>To return to # 13: Jasanoff correctly identifies something that has always disturbed me, and that is the conflation, in debates of this nature, of the methodological relativism of SSK with all sorts of other things that can be put under the heading &#8216;relativism&#8217;. It&#8217;s the kind of slippage and conflation that occurs all over the place (relativism is just one term so altered) refiguring quite reasonable and justifable claims into monstrous epistemological bugbears.</p>
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		<title>By: marty</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/comment-page-1/#comment-605136</link>
		<dc:creator>marty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 07:49:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/#comment-605136</guid>
		<description> dk, i note it&#039;s jasanoff you&#039;re quoting and not yourself, but may i ask, re:


 &quot;A culturalist position that prescribes non-Western science for non-Western peoples ..&quot;

Ignoring who is or is not advocating it, I&#039;m not even sure what this means. What is non-Western science? What would be an example?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>dk, i note it&#8217;s jasanoff you&#8217;re quoting and not yourself, but may i ask, re:</p>
<p> &#8220;A culturalist position that prescribes non-Western science for non-Western peoples ..&#8221;</p>
<p>Ignoring who is or is not advocating it, I&#8217;m not even sure what this means. What is non-Western science? What would be an example?</p>
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		<title>By: dk.au</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/comment-page-1/#comment-605123</link>
		<dc:creator>dk.au</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 07:33:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/#comment-605123</guid>
		<description>Cheers Klaus.  I highly recommend people read the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.kcl.ac.uk/content/1/c4/97/11/Demeritt2006economyandsociety.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;David Demeritt piece&lt;/a&gt; Kath Wilson linked to on &lt;a href=&quot;blogs.crikey.com.au/crikey/files/2009/01/diary-of-a-hoax.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the diary site&lt;/a&gt; too
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cheers Klaus.  I highly recommend people read the <a href="http://www.kcl.ac.uk/content/1/c4/97/11/Demeritt2006economyandsociety.pdf" rel="nofollow">David Demeritt piece</a> Kath Wilson linked to on <a href="blogs.crikey.com.au/crikey/files/2009/01/diary-of-a-hoax.html" rel="nofollow">the diary site</a> too</p>
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		<title>By: klaus k</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/comment-page-1/#comment-605118</link>
		<dc:creator>klaus k</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 07:29:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/#comment-605118</guid>
		<description>I was hoping you&#039;d have something to say on this, dk.au. Very interesting, thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was hoping you&#8217;d have something to say on this, dk.au. Very interesting, thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: dk.au</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/comment-page-1/#comment-605113</link>
		<dc:creator>dk.au</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 07:24:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/#comment-605113</guid>
		<description>A few things:
1.  On Berube&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.powells.com/review/2009_1_4&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;review itself&lt;/a&gt;, yes he&#039;s a fun writer and he&#039;s engaged with these issues for a quite a while.  But you have to pay attention to his culture/science warrior status in the US viz. the Religious Right, to understand his writings about (Capital &#039;S&#039;) Science and epistemology.  This par, speculating about the hostility of &#039;postmodern&#039; humanities scholars to epistemological realism in &#039;the context of justification&#039;, shows a very poor engagement with the substance of Science Studies scholarship:
&lt;blockquote&gt;When some people hear the term Western science, they think first of Hiroshima, Agent Orange and the Union Carbide plant in Bhopal -- and not, say, of the discovery of neutrino oscillation. This mordant skepticism about the benefits of Western science is then underlined by a dogmatic conviction that the Enlightenment was little more than a stalking horse for imperialism. As for why postmodern intellectuals would champion &quot;local knowledges&quot; and the &quot;heterogeneity of language games&quot; against the universalist aspirations of the Enlightenment, my sense is that when academic leftists in the humanities speak glowingly about &quot;local knowledges,&quot; they&#039;re thinking of all the warm and fuzzy feelings we lefties have about &quot;the local&quot; -- from our local independent bookstore to our local independent food co-op. These are good things by every measure (local and universal), but they seem to have obscured the fact that many of the world&#039;s &quot;local knowledges&quot; are parochial, reactionary and/or theocratic...&lt;/blockquote&gt;
This maintenance of &#039;local&#039; and &#039;universal&#039; knowledge boundaries is at the heart of much discussion about &#039;social construction&#039; that has been going on in the academy for the best part of 4 decades, so if Berube&#039;s &#039;best guess&#039; is simply to reinforce the separation through some ham-fisted &lt;em&gt;Gemeinschaft&lt;/em&gt;, I&#039;m afraid he&#039;s either not taking those enormously rich varieties of constructionism seriously or he&#039;s making a play in his own culture wars.  Similarly, the squib that Hist and Phil of Science is &quot;conducted by people who are rigorously indifferent to the question of whether a scientific theory is actually true&quot; is a poor caricature.

2.  On the pedestal both Berube and Sokal place Meera Nanda&#039;s work, Here&#039;s Sheila Jasanoff from a 1999 review of House Built on Sand in &lt;a href=&quot;http://sth.sagepub.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;ST&amp;H&lt;/a&gt;:


&lt;blockquote&gt;Meera Nanda’s complaint against social constructivism demands attention not only because hers is a fresh voice in the science wars, nor yet because she actually does seek to locate science studies on the wider canvas of politics and society, but because she claims the highest of possible high grounds in her rejection of relativism and her embrace of Enlightenment values. Science and rationality, Nanda argues, are the only effective weapons against the religious, military, and economic fundamentalisms that fuel the repressive regimes of the developing world. A culturalist position that prescribes non-Western science for non-Western peoples smacks, in her view, of the worst form of colonial condescension. Cultural relativism is doubly  reprehensible when it allies itself with quack medicine, outmoded technologies, and ideologically motivated readings of the historical record, such as those championed by India’s resurgent Hindu nationalists. Nanda (correctly) does not accuse science studies of favoring a different science for India, but she does suggest that relativism of the sort associated with the field gives aid and comfort to Indian neoromantics and their American supporters who would turn away from the benefits of Western science in favor of premodern, indigenous ways of knowing.

These are grave charges, but they are also flawed. Nanda seems strangely inattentive to the widespread misuses of science and rationality to perpetuate authoritarian policies in many parts of theworld, not excluding India. More to the point, her accusations are directed to the wrong mailbox—at least insofar as she includes the “Strong Programme” of the Edinburgh school of the sociology of scientific knowledge (SSK) among her addressees. SSK’s methodological relativism has never provided warrants for the normative conclusion that all knowledge claims are equal or deserve the same respect from external observers. Rather, the symmetrically skeptical probing into the foundations of competing belief systems has offered a possible basis for deciding not only which claims one should believe in but also why, in a controversial situation, one may be both morally and intellectually justified in doing so. A key point of constructivist analysis is to try to understand how black-boxed categories such as “Indian science and technology” acquire meaning and power. In this analytical framework, unexamined claims to cultural superiority would neither be exempt from scrutiny nor be endorsed as a suitable basis for action. Nor, of course, on the other side, would essentializing notions of “modernity,” “development,” “progress,” or rationality.”&lt;/blockquote&gt;

3.  On Steve Fuller as a representative for &#039;science studies&#039;/&#039;social construction&#039; etc. As I said on Berube&#039;s blog at the time:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Jesus this is getting past its use-by date.  I pray for a decent admissibility challenge the next time Fuller takes the stand - not just on his knowledge of the science, but his expertise in STS.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few things:<br />
1.  On Berube&#8217;s <a href="http://www.powells.com/review/2009_1_4" rel="nofollow">review itself</a>, yes he&#8217;s a fun writer and he&#8217;s engaged with these issues for a quite a while.  But you have to pay attention to his culture/science warrior status in the US viz. the Religious Right, to understand his writings about (Capital &#8216;S&#8217;) Science and epistemology.  This par, speculating about the hostility of &#8216;postmodern&#8217; humanities scholars to epistemological realism in &#8216;the context of justification&#8217;, shows a very poor engagement with the substance of Science Studies scholarship:</p>
<blockquote><p>When some people hear the term Western science, they think first of Hiroshima, Agent Orange and the Union Carbide plant in Bhopal &#8212; and not, say, of the discovery of neutrino oscillation. This mordant skepticism about the benefits of Western science is then underlined by a dogmatic conviction that the Enlightenment was little more than a stalking horse for imperialism. As for why postmodern intellectuals would champion &#8220;local knowledges&#8221; and the &#8220;heterogeneity of language games&#8221; against the universalist aspirations of the Enlightenment, my sense is that when academic leftists in the humanities speak glowingly about &#8220;local knowledges,&#8221; they&#8217;re thinking of all the warm and fuzzy feelings we lefties have about &#8220;the local&#8221; &#8212; from our local independent bookstore to our local independent food co-op. These are good things by every measure (local and universal), but they seem to have obscured the fact that many of the world&#8217;s &#8220;local knowledges&#8221; are parochial, reactionary and/or theocratic&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<p>This maintenance of &#8216;local&#8217; and &#8216;universal&#8217; knowledge boundaries is at the heart of much discussion about &#8217;social construction&#8217; that has been going on in the academy for the best part of 4 decades, so if Berube&#8217;s &#8216;best guess&#8217; is simply to reinforce the separation through some ham-fisted <em>Gemeinschaft</em>, I&#8217;m afraid he&#8217;s either not taking those enormously rich varieties of constructionism seriously or he&#8217;s making a play in his own culture wars.  Similarly, the squib that Hist and Phil of Science is &#8220;conducted by people who are rigorously indifferent to the question of whether a scientific theory is actually true&#8221; is a poor caricature.</p>
<p>2.  On the pedestal both Berube and Sokal place Meera Nanda&#8217;s work, Here&#8217;s Sheila Jasanoff from a 1999 review of House Built on Sand in <a href="http://sth.sagepub.com/" rel="nofollow">ST&#038;H</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>Meera Nanda’s complaint against social constructivism demands attention not only because hers is a fresh voice in the science wars, nor yet because she actually does seek to locate science studies on the wider canvas of politics and society, but because she claims the highest of possible high grounds in her rejection of relativism and her embrace of Enlightenment values. Science and rationality, Nanda argues, are the only effective weapons against the religious, military, and economic fundamentalisms that fuel the repressive regimes of the developing world. A culturalist position that prescribes non-Western science for non-Western peoples smacks, in her view, of the worst form of colonial condescension. Cultural relativism is doubly  reprehensible when it allies itself with quack medicine, outmoded technologies, and ideologically motivated readings of the historical record, such as those championed by India’s resurgent Hindu nationalists. Nanda (correctly) does not accuse science studies of favoring a different science for India, but she does suggest that relativism of the sort associated with the field gives aid and comfort to Indian neoromantics and their American supporters who would turn away from the benefits of Western science in favor of premodern, indigenous ways of knowing.</p>
<p>These are grave charges, but they are also flawed. Nanda seems strangely inattentive to the widespread misuses of science and rationality to perpetuate authoritarian policies in many parts of theworld, not excluding India. More to the point, her accusations are directed to the wrong mailbox—at least insofar as she includes the “Strong Programme” of the Edinburgh school of the sociology of scientific knowledge (SSK) among her addressees. SSK’s methodological relativism has never provided warrants for the normative conclusion that all knowledge claims are equal or deserve the same respect from external observers. Rather, the symmetrically skeptical probing into the foundations of competing belief systems has offered a possible basis for deciding not only which claims one should believe in but also why, in a controversial situation, one may be both morally and intellectually justified in doing so. A key point of constructivist analysis is to try to understand how black-boxed categories such as “Indian science and technology” acquire meaning and power. In this analytical framework, unexamined claims to cultural superiority would neither be exempt from scrutiny nor be endorsed as a suitable basis for action. Nor, of course, on the other side, would essentializing notions of “modernity,” “development,” “progress,” or rationality.”</p></blockquote>
<p>3.  On Steve Fuller as a representative for &#8217;science studies&#8217;/&#8217;social construction&#8217; etc. As I said on Berube&#8217;s blog at the time:</p>
<blockquote><p>Jesus this is getting past its use-by date.  I pray for a decent admissibility challenge the next time Fuller takes the stand &#8211; not just on his knowledge of the science, but his expertise in STS.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Roger Jones</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/comment-page-1/#comment-605030</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 05:25:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/#comment-605030</guid>
		<description>The Bérubé piece is a very good/essay review and thanks Kim for linking it. The debates he describe line up with my take on arguments surrounding &quot;scientific proof&quot; and human-induced climate change.

One thing remarkable in the literature on the philosophy of science is that the distinction between discovery and justification is often not made clear - is it because it&#039;s too obvious to mention, or that it was debated for a long time? Certainly much of the literature in the late 19th and 20th century tried to link the two, rather than treat them as complementary but different. Perhaps if more was made of this difference, the waters in which public debates take place (a long way from any scholarship), wouldn&#039;t be so muddy.

There is a serious angle for climate studies in all of this. When integrating physical and social aspects in climate, for example in climate and human responses tied up in adaptation to climate change, the spectrum of justification of relatively solid facts to absolute relatavism in value-based norms can be encountered. What Bérubé (and presumably Sokal but would need to read the book) are offering seems a sensible way to negotiate this (and accords pretty much with my own views but states it much better than I ever could).

Even that little word risk can contain both ends of the spectrum, with some parts that can be rigorously justified and other parts that are totally relative, and need to be elicited from those who are vulnerable with the greatest of skill.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Bérubé piece is a very good/essay review and thanks Kim for linking it. The debates he describe line up with my take on arguments surrounding &#8220;scientific proof&#8221; and human-induced climate change.</p>
<p>One thing remarkable in the literature on the philosophy of science is that the distinction between discovery and justification is often not made clear &#8211; is it because it&#8217;s too obvious to mention, or that it was debated for a long time? Certainly much of the literature in the late 19th and 20th century tried to link the two, rather than treat them as complementary but different. Perhaps if more was made of this difference, the waters in which public debates take place (a long way from any scholarship), wouldn&#8217;t be so muddy.</p>
<p>There is a serious angle for climate studies in all of this. When integrating physical and social aspects in climate, for example in climate and human responses tied up in adaptation to climate change, the spectrum of justification of relatively solid facts to absolute relatavism in value-based norms can be encountered. What Bérubé (and presumably Sokal but would need to read the book) are offering seems a sensible way to negotiate this (and accords pretty much with my own views but states it much better than I ever could).</p>
<p>Even that little word risk can contain both ends of the spectrum, with some parts that can be rigorously justified and other parts that are totally relative, and need to be elicited from those who are vulnerable with the greatest of skill.</p>
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		<title>By: professor rat</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/comment-page-1/#comment-605009</link>
		<dc:creator>professor rat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 04:30:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/#comment-605009</guid>
		<description>Harris sounds a little dogmatic but Sokal and Dawkins need more supporters I think. The sort of pressures being applied to them now remind me of this absurd &#039;even-handed&#039; position we&#039;re supposed to take on Gaza. I&#039;ve never seen Dawkins be unreasonable and even if Sokal is making some sort of ambit-claim here then I say we need people who make ambit claims. Now, more than ever we need them, because religious nuts are distracting us from saving our habitat. And if the State is the weakest and most unpopular link of capitalism then surely religion ( and psuedo-religion like Marxism) is the weakest part of the state. &#039; Throne and altar &#039; are the enemy of all humanity now so we need millions of Dawkins and Sokals. Billions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Harris sounds a little dogmatic but Sokal and Dawkins need more supporters I think. The sort of pressures being applied to them now remind me of this absurd &#8216;even-handed&#8217; position we&#8217;re supposed to take on Gaza. I&#8217;ve never seen Dawkins be unreasonable and even if Sokal is making some sort of ambit-claim here then I say we need people who make ambit claims. Now, more than ever we need them, because religious nuts are distracting us from saving our habitat. And if the State is the weakest and most unpopular link of capitalism then surely religion ( and psuedo-religion like Marxism) is the weakest part of the state. &#8216; Throne and altar &#8216; are the enemy of all humanity now so we need millions of Dawkins and Sokals. Billions.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/comment-page-1/#comment-604961</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 02:58:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/#comment-604961</guid>
		<description>His blog is certainly very good stuff, marty, even if you don&#039;t have a chance to chase down his academic work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>His blog is certainly very good stuff, marty, even if you don&#8217;t have a chance to chase down his academic work.</p>
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		<title>By: marty</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/comment-page-1/#comment-604927</link>
		<dc:creator>marty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 02:27:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/#comment-604927</guid>
		<description> klausk k and mark, thanks very much. probably your recommendations are too far away from my interests, but i&#039;ll keep them in mind. from the little i read today, he does seem to be an excellent, thoughtful writer.  i did read the stoush stuff, and was informed and amused by it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>klausk k and mark, thanks very much. probably your recommendations are too far away from my interests, but i&#8217;ll keep them in mind. from the little i read today, he does seem to be an excellent, thoughtful writer.  i did read the stoush stuff, and was informed and amused by it.</p>
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		<title>By: klaus k</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/comment-page-1/#comment-604877</link>
		<dc:creator>klaus k</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 01:46:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/#comment-604877</guid>
		<description>Also (and at the risk of going too far off topic), further points to Berube for trying to revive Mukařovský. I&#039;ve got &lt;em&gt;Aesthetic Function, Norm and Value as Social Facts&lt;/em&gt; on my reading list for my new project.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also (and at the risk of going too far off topic), further points to Berube for trying to revive Mukařovský. I&#8217;ve got <em>Aesthetic Function, Norm and Value as Social Facts</em> on my reading list for my new project.</p>
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		<title>By: Liam</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/comment-page-1/#comment-604847</link>
		<dc:creator>Liam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 00:51:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/#comment-604847</guid>
		<description>Laura, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.michaelberube.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;he&#039;s returned&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Laura, <a href="http://www.michaelberube.com/" rel="nofollow">he&#8217;s returned</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Laura</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/comment-page-1/#comment-604841</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 00:49:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/#comment-604841</guid>
		<description>He used to blog independently (I think there&#039;s still an archive and still contributes to Crooked Timber.  Terrific, thoughtful, exciting writer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He used to blog independently (I think there&#8217;s still an archive and still contributes to Crooked Timber.  Terrific, thoughtful, exciting writer.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/comment-page-1/#comment-604834</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 00:46:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/#comment-604834</guid>
		<description>Yep, I have to read more of him - I&#039;d agree that the intro to the &quot;Aesthetics of Cultural Studies&quot; book is very good stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yep, I have to read more of him &#8211; I&#8217;d agree that the intro to the &#8220;Aesthetics of Cultural Studies&#8221; book is very good stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: klaus k</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/comment-page-1/#comment-604812</link>
		<dc:creator>klaus k</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 00:01:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/#comment-604812</guid>
		<description>Marty, Berube only suggests his own positions on the philosophy of science through his discussion of Sokal&#039;s, but I can imagine from what he does say that he accepts some points upon which I am not yet convinced re: realism and the philosophy of science. As I suggested, his substantive point is actually about something else which, while related, doesn&#039;t require one to take a position on the philosophy of science. Shaun&#039;s link to the &#039;side stoush&#039; may provide more on his position, though I don&#039;t have time just now to click through and follow that up. 

I don&#039;t take a strong anti-realist position, but some of the issues in that area of inquiry don&#039;t seem to be resolved. However, I&#039;m not an expert. There are others who comment and post on this blog who know more about the philosophy of science, science studies and, obviously, science itself (or sciences themselves). They may have something to say on this.

The Berube work I can recommend wholeheartedly has more to do with my own area of expertise: his interventions on literary and cultural studies are very interesting.  &#039;Public Access&#039; and &#039;The Employment of English&#039;, as well as the edited collection &#039;The Aesthetics of Cultural Studies&#039; which includes his introduction and a number of challenging papers by other authors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marty, Berube only suggests his own positions on the philosophy of science through his discussion of Sokal&#8217;s, but I can imagine from what he does say that he accepts some points upon which I am not yet convinced re: realism and the philosophy of science. As I suggested, his substantive point is actually about something else which, while related, doesn&#8217;t require one to take a position on the philosophy of science. Shaun&#8217;s link to the &#8217;side stoush&#8217; may provide more on his position, though I don&#8217;t have time just now to click through and follow that up. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t take a strong anti-realist position, but some of the issues in that area of inquiry don&#8217;t seem to be resolved. However, I&#8217;m not an expert. There are others who comment and post on this blog who know more about the philosophy of science, science studies and, obviously, science itself (or sciences themselves). They may have something to say on this.</p>
<p>The Berube work I can recommend wholeheartedly has more to do with my own area of expertise: his interventions on literary and cultural studies are very interesting.  &#8216;Public Access&#8217; and &#8216;The Employment of English&#8217;, as well as the edited collection &#8216;The Aesthetics of Cultural Studies&#8217; which includes his introduction and a number of challenging papers by other authors.</p>
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		<title>By: Legal Eagle</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/comment-page-1/#comment-604804</link>
		<dc:creator>Legal Eagle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:41:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/#comment-604804</guid>
		<description>Thanks Kim, that was an excellent review. Like Shaun, I&#039;d be a supporter of secular pluralism. I&#039;ve always been uncomfortable with the secular dogmatists - it&#039;s a kind of fundamentalism in itself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Kim, that was an excellent review. Like Shaun, I&#8217;d be a supporter of secular pluralism. I&#8217;ve always been uncomfortable with the secular dogmatists &#8211; it&#8217;s a kind of fundamentalism in itself.</p>
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		<title>By: marty</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/comment-page-1/#comment-604798</link>
		<dc:creator>marty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:29:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/11/berube-on-sokal/#comment-604798</guid>
		<description> klaus k, were you hesitant about some science-realism line in the review itself, or in other writings by berube? this is not my world at all, and i don&#039;t know berube, but i liked the review very much. if you can recommend other berube writings (recommendation of course not implying complete agreement), i&#039;d be grateful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>klaus k, were you hesitant about some science-realism line in the review itself, or in other writings by berube? this is not my world at all, and i don&#8217;t know berube, but i liked the review very much. if you can recommend other berube writings (recommendation of course not implying complete agreement), i&#8217;d be grateful.</p>
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