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	<title>Comments on: The Wilson/Windschuttle Quadrant hoax: the washup continued</title>
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	<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/17/the-wilsonwindschuttle-quadrant-hoax-the-washup-continued/</link>
	<description>Life, Culture and Politics from BrisVegas</description>
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		<title>By: David Irving (no relation)</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/17/the-wilsonwindschuttle-quadrant-hoax-the-washup-continued/#comment-181209</link>
		<dc:creator>David Irving (no relation)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 11:28:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/17/the-wilsonwindschuttle-quadrant-hoax-the-washup-continued/#comment-181209</guid>
		<description>AC, you should&#039;ve quit while you were behind ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AC, you should&#8217;ve quit while you were behind &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: AC</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/17/the-wilsonwindschuttle-quadrant-hoax-the-washup-continued/#comment-181208</link>
		<dc:creator>AC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 07:41:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/17/the-wilsonwindschuttle-quadrant-hoax-the-washup-continued/#comment-181208</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re right, Mark. I should have left the last sentence off. The rest, however, is accurate and fair.

Long may ratiocination triumph over relativism!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re right, Mark. I should have left the last sentence off. The rest, however, is accurate and fair.</p>
<p>Long may ratiocination triumph over relativism!</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Burns</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/17/the-wilsonwindschuttle-quadrant-hoax-the-washup-continued/#comment-181207</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Burns</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2009 00:26:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/17/the-wilsonwindschuttle-quadrant-hoax-the-washup-continued/#comment-181207</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Mark, the whole debate was getting quite tiresome and I have no more to say on it. Except:
Long live Von Daniken!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Mark, the whole debate was getting quite tiresome and I have no more to say on it. Except:<br />
Long live Von Daniken!</p>
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		<title>By: Adrien</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/17/the-wilsonwindschuttle-quadrant-hoax-the-washup-continued/#comment-181206</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jan 2009 09:19:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/17/the-wilsonwindschuttle-quadrant-hoax-the-washup-continued/#comment-181206</guid>
		<description>Matilda - &lt;I&gt;So to bring this post back into the tone of the discussion, the absence of strong socialist-inclined lobby groups over the past 15 years has led to the socially and economically disadvantaged being ground further into the dust.&lt;/i&gt;
.
There&#039;s a certain correlation between neoliberal policies and the emergence of an &#039;underclass&#039;. At the end of Margaret Thatcher&#039;s rein I believe UK home ownership had jumped to 70%. However as (I think it was) John Gray observed 20% of UK citizens lived in houses where no-one had a job! So 7/10 Brits got a better deal under neoliberalism (arguably) and 1 out of 5 of them were relegated to the bin.
.
There&#039;s something similar in Australia. I don&#039;t have stats. But it&#039;s obvious on the street that there&#039;s heaps of unprecedented affluence juxtaposed to the, not so long ago, unthinkable spectacle of massive destitution.
.
But I don&#039;t think it&#039;s a mater of a lack of strong socialist voices alone at least. The Keynsian wave snuffed it in the 70s. It did so because the policies associated with it, which can&#039;t really be entirely attributed to Keynes, brought about a mire to which neoliberalism provided some antidote. Comcomitant with this is, what is called the Left&#039;s drift away from socialism in the 60s toward sexual politics etc. This New Left was increasingly alienated from the Old Left of strictly Marxist varieties with a lot of old fuddies still clinging to the notion that the Soviet Union would graduate from its dictatorship phase. Despite what many of these latter say, the anti-liberal, authoritarian and downright entrenched &lt;i&gt;conservative&lt;/i&gt; mindset of traditional socialists still obtains. Some of the scariest people I&#039;ve ever met are ALP Left union hacks. Truly.
.
What really impresses me about this lot however is the conservatism. The refusal to acknowledge the great difficulties with centralized planning and regulation for example. Or the corruption and bureaucratic self-preservation in trades unions. The mere fact that certain things just &lt;i&gt;didn&#039;t work&lt;/i&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matilda &#8211; <i>So to bring this post back into the tone of the discussion, the absence of strong socialist-inclined lobby groups over the past 15 years has led to the socially and economically disadvantaged being ground further into the dust.</i><br />
.<br />
There&#8217;s a certain correlation between neoliberal policies and the emergence of an &#8216;underclass&#8217;. At the end of Margaret Thatcher&#8217;s rein I believe UK home ownership had jumped to 70%. However as (I think it was) John Gray observed 20% of UK citizens lived in houses where no-one had a job! So 7/10 Brits got a better deal under neoliberalism (arguably) and 1 out of 5 of them were relegated to the bin.<br />
.<br />
There&#8217;s something similar in Australia. I don&#8217;t have stats. But it&#8217;s obvious on the street that there&#8217;s heaps of unprecedented affluence juxtaposed to the, not so long ago, unthinkable spectacle of massive destitution.<br />
.<br />
But I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s a mater of a lack of strong socialist voices alone at least. The Keynsian wave snuffed it in the 70s. It did so because the policies associated with it, which can&#8217;t really be entirely attributed to Keynes, brought about a mire to which neoliberalism provided some antidote. Comcomitant with this is, what is called the Left&#8217;s drift away from socialism in the 60s toward sexual politics etc. This New Left was increasingly alienated from the Old Left of strictly Marxist varieties with a lot of old fuddies still clinging to the notion that the Soviet Union would graduate from its dictatorship phase. Despite what many of these latter say, the anti-liberal, authoritarian and downright entrenched <i>conservative</i> mindset of traditional socialists still obtains. Some of the scariest people I&#8217;ve ever met are ALP Left union hacks. Truly.<br />
.<br />
What really impresses me about this lot however is the conservatism. The refusal to acknowledge the great difficulties with centralized planning and regulation for example. Or the corruption and bureaucratic self-preservation in trades unions. The mere fact that certain things just <i>didn&#8217;t work</i>.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/17/the-wilsonwindschuttle-quadrant-hoax-the-washup-continued/#comment-181205</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:31:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/17/the-wilsonwindschuttle-quadrant-hoax-the-washup-continued/#comment-181205</guid>
		<description>AC, please stop personalising the issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AC, please stop personalising the issue.</p>
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		<title>By: AC</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/17/the-wilsonwindschuttle-quadrant-hoax-the-washup-continued/#comment-181204</link>
		<dc:creator>AC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:17:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/17/the-wilsonwindschuttle-quadrant-hoax-the-washup-continued/#comment-181204</guid>
		<description>Okay, Paul. You keep on believing what fits your consensus reality. Keith sure seems to cut some folks deeply. Like this:

&lt;blockquote&gt;In it Roberts points out the uselessness of getting bogged down in statistics of body counts, instead of simply accepting the basic fact that numerous Aborigines were murdered by Europeans.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The numbers actually count, Paul. They affect the way events can be &lt;b&gt;accurately&lt;/b&gt; assessed and characterised. Your language betrays your agenda. &quot;simply accepting the basic fact&quot; How can it be a basic fact if you aren&#039;t interested in the actual facts? That approach to history is a joke, and that is what Windschuttle is fighting, as painful as it may be to those in denial.

&quot;simply accepting the basic fact&quot;

LOL. Well... one thing is accurate - your approach to academic rigour is &quot;simple&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, Paul. You keep on believing what fits your consensus reality. Keith sure seems to cut some folks deeply. Like this:</p>
<blockquote><p>In it Roberts points out the uselessness of getting bogged down in statistics of body counts, instead of simply accepting the basic fact that numerous Aborigines were murdered by Europeans.</p></blockquote>
<p>The numbers actually count, Paul. They affect the way events can be <b>accurately</b> assessed and characterised. Your language betrays your agenda. &#8220;simply accepting the basic fact&#8221; How can it be a basic fact if you aren&#8217;t interested in the actual facts? That approach to history is a joke, and that is what Windschuttle is fighting, as painful as it may be to those in denial.</p>
<p>&#8220;simply accepting the basic fact&#8221;</p>
<p>LOL. Well&#8230; one thing is accurate &#8211; your approach to academic rigour is &#8220;simple&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/17/the-wilsonwindschuttle-quadrant-hoax-the-washup-continued/#comment-181203</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:08:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/17/the-wilsonwindschuttle-quadrant-hoax-the-washup-continued/#comment-181203</guid>
		<description>Matilda, I think you&#039;re making some reasonable and strong points, but I agree they&#039;re perhaps not best addressed on this thread.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matilda, I think you&#8217;re making some reasonable and strong points, but I agree they&#8217;re perhaps not best addressed on this thread.</p>
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		<title>By: Matilda</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/17/the-wilsonwindschuttle-quadrant-hoax-the-washup-continued/#comment-181202</link>
		<dc:creator>Matilda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jan 2009 06:17:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/17/the-wilsonwindschuttle-quadrant-hoax-the-washup-continued/#comment-181202</guid>
		<description>Thanks for that Mark. I appreciate your eloquent reflections on the demise of the Left and the challenges in trying to build an authentic version for the 21st century.  But I think a person&#039;s or an organisation&#039;s  socio-political persuasion is gauged by the values adhered to - publicly and privately - more than by the ability to compose a persuasive argument steeped in intellectualism (that&#039;s not intended as personal dig, more a general observation).

So as LP is making pronouncements about where you/it believes various people lie on the left-liberal-conservative continuum, maybe it would be timely for LP to determine where it places itself on that continuum - particularly as while making those pronouncements you accept ads from corporate capitalists (some would label them corporate criminals!).  Surely your position on the ethics of advertising reflects your personal value system which in turn feeds into your political persuasion.  The only thing I’m not quite sure about is where the ‘you’ ends and the ‘LP’ starts.

Perhaps you’d be more comfortable addressing this question in a new thread.  Personally, I’m interested in teasing out this tension between personal values and public practice; the commitment made by those of us on the left to social justice values versus the trade-offs we&#039;re forced to make in order to survive in a capitalist society.

Nowhere is this tension (read hypocrisy) more overt than in the larger NGOs who will take government funds to do just about anything, whilst professing strong social justice values, appearing to reach out to the disadvantaged, the homeless, etc.  The church-run welfare orgs are particularly, but not exclusively, guilty of happily sacrificing their professed principals in pursuance of the almighty dollar.  If the corporatisied welfare/housing sector received the kind of forensic scrutiny on LP or generally in the blogosphere that is devoted to intellectual positions, as per (the earlier part of) this thread, a lot of stuff would come to light!

So to bring this post back into the tone of the discussion, the absence of strong socialist-inclined lobby groups over the past 15 years has led to the socially and economically disadvantaged being ground further into the dust.  That - along with the decline of health, housing and other public services - is surely more a more important outcome than arguing over the entrails of Robert Manne’s political oscillations.

Finally, I can see why no other LP readers are bothered by the corporate ads.  The kind of behaviour I’ve described above from NGOs has come to be par for the course.   In our superficial, impoverished culture it’s okay to profess one set of beliefs whilst openly practising another.  It’s now acceptable for social justice and human rights to be reduced to empty sloganeering.  Think of how the global ‘make poverty history’ campaign amounted to wearing armbands!  There’s a whole homelessness industry out there getting rich out of doing anything and everything for the homeless EXCEPT finding houses for them.

So I just think that while intellectual theorising nourishes the mind, it doesn’t feed the soul the way that authentic behaviour does – if it becomes one’s primary preoccupation it obscures the need for integrity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for that Mark. I appreciate your eloquent reflections on the demise of the Left and the challenges in trying to build an authentic version for the 21st century.  But I think a person&#8217;s or an organisation&#8217;s  socio-political persuasion is gauged by the values adhered to &#8211; publicly and privately &#8211; more than by the ability to compose a persuasive argument steeped in intellectualism (that&#8217;s not intended as personal dig, more a general observation).</p>
<p>So as LP is making pronouncements about where you/it believes various people lie on the left-liberal-conservative continuum, maybe it would be timely for LP to determine where it places itself on that continuum &#8211; particularly as while making those pronouncements you accept ads from corporate capitalists (some would label them corporate criminals!).  Surely your position on the ethics of advertising reflects your personal value system which in turn feeds into your political persuasion.  The only thing I’m not quite sure about is where the ‘you’ ends and the ‘LP’ starts.</p>
<p>Perhaps you’d be more comfortable addressing this question in a new thread.  Personally, I’m interested in teasing out this tension between personal values and public practice; the commitment made by those of us on the left to social justice values versus the trade-offs we&#8217;re forced to make in order to survive in a capitalist society.</p>
<p>Nowhere is this tension (read hypocrisy) more overt than in the larger NGOs who will take government funds to do just about anything, whilst professing strong social justice values, appearing to reach out to the disadvantaged, the homeless, etc.  The church-run welfare orgs are particularly, but not exclusively, guilty of happily sacrificing their professed principals in pursuance of the almighty dollar.  If the corporatisied welfare/housing sector received the kind of forensic scrutiny on LP or generally in the blogosphere that is devoted to intellectual positions, as per (the earlier part of) this thread, a lot of stuff would come to light!</p>
<p>So to bring this post back into the tone of the discussion, the absence of strong socialist-inclined lobby groups over the past 15 years has led to the socially and economically disadvantaged being ground further into the dust.  That &#8211; along with the decline of health, housing and other public services &#8211; is surely more a more important outcome than arguing over the entrails of Robert Manne’s political oscillations.</p>
<p>Finally, I can see why no other LP readers are bothered by the corporate ads.  The kind of behaviour I’ve described above from NGOs has come to be par for the course.   In our superficial, impoverished culture it’s okay to profess one set of beliefs whilst openly practising another.  It’s now acceptable for social justice and human rights to be reduced to empty sloganeering.  Think of how the global ‘make poverty history’ campaign amounted to wearing armbands!  There’s a whole homelessness industry out there getting rich out of doing anything and everything for the homeless EXCEPT finding houses for them.</p>
<p>So I just think that while intellectual theorising nourishes the mind, it doesn’t feed the soul the way that authentic behaviour does – if it becomes one’s primary preoccupation it obscures the need for integrity.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Burns</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/17/the-wilsonwindschuttle-quadrant-hoax-the-washup-continued/#comment-181201</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Burns</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jan 2009 22:17:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/17/the-wilsonwindschuttle-quadrant-hoax-the-washup-continued/#comment-181201</guid>
		<description>AC @ 83,
No, AC, Shorter Paul Burns is - You&#039;re wrong, you don&#039;t have a clue what you&#039;re talking about, and I don&#039;t think you&#039;re worth bothering with.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AC @ 83,<br />
No, AC, Shorter Paul Burns is &#8211; You&#8217;re wrong, you don&#8217;t have a clue what you&#8217;re talking about, and I don&#8217;t think you&#8217;re worth bothering with.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: AC</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/17/the-wilsonwindschuttle-quadrant-hoax-the-washup-continued/#comment-181200</link>
		<dc:creator>AC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jan 2009 20:33:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/01/17/the-wilsonwindschuttle-quadrant-hoax-the-washup-continued/#comment-181200</guid>
		<description>Shorter Paul Burns: [puts fingers in ears] &quot;Lah, lah, lah, I&#039;m not listening, I can&#039;t hear you.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shorter Paul Burns: [puts fingers in ears] &#8220;Lah, lah, lah, I&#8217;m not listening, I can&#8217;t hear you.&#8221;</p>
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