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	<title>Comments on: Stereotypes aren&#039;t always completely unfounded</title>
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	<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/02/05/stereotypes-arent-always-completely-unfounded/</link>
	<description>Life, Culture and Politics from BrisVegas</description>
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		<title>By: Robert Merkel</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/02/05/stereotypes-arent-always-completely-unfounded/#comment-172966</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Merkel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Feb 2009 00:40:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/02/05/stereotypes-arent-always-completely-unfounded/#comment-172966</guid>
		<description>Wolverina: is somebody who only ever rides up and down their quiet suburban back street to keep an eye on their kid a &quot;bike rider&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wolverina: is somebody who only ever rides up and down their quiet suburban back street to keep an eye on their kid a &#8220;bike rider&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Adrien</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/02/05/stereotypes-arent-always-completely-unfounded/#comment-172965</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Feb 2009 00:35:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/02/05/stereotypes-arent-always-completely-unfounded/#comment-172965</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;They are not travelling in high-powered, high-speed 4-wheel (or even 2-wheel i.e. motorcycles) vehicles with comparable road-speed pickup and external casing and protections, nor are they pedestrians… which implies that they are, in fact, a ‘homogenous’ group&lt;/i&gt;
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And hence car drivers are an homogenous group?
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I tend to think stereotypes are grounded in some kind of reality. They might be self-serving, xenophobic and inaccurate but they aren&#039;t just brain farts.
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Most of us who ride bicycles don&#039;t think of the activity as one bound by rules of traffic as drivers. Bikes don&#039;t have license plates either so you can go thru a red light on a bike and the camera&#039;s won&#039;t pick you up. Bikes on the roads &lt;i&gt;en mass&lt;/i&gt; are a new phenomena and they&#039;re something for people to get pissed off at.  The road is a place of conflict. After all people who drive SUVs have certain stereotypical characteristics. Likewise luxury cars (they&#039;re arseholes).
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And bikes - the same. At least for me. I&#039;ve ridden down freeways the wrong way without the proper safety equipment. It was 3 o&#039;Clock in the morning tho&#039; (Beethoven made me do it).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>They are not travelling in high-powered, high-speed 4-wheel (or even 2-wheel i.e. motorcycles) vehicles with comparable road-speed pickup and external casing and protections, nor are they pedestrians… which implies that they are, in fact, a ‘homogenous’ group</i><br />
.<br />
And hence car drivers are an homogenous group?<br />
.<br />
I tend to think stereotypes are grounded in some kind of reality. They might be self-serving, xenophobic and inaccurate but they aren&#8217;t just brain farts.<br />
.<br />
Most of us who ride bicycles don&#8217;t think of the activity as one bound by rules of traffic as drivers. Bikes don&#8217;t have license plates either so you can go thru a red light on a bike and the camera&#8217;s won&#8217;t pick you up. Bikes on the roads <i>en mass</i> are a new phenomena and they&#8217;re something for people to get pissed off at.  The road is a place of conflict. After all people who drive SUVs have certain stereotypical characteristics. Likewise luxury cars (they&#8217;re arseholes).<br />
.<br />
And bikes &#8211; the same. At least for me. I&#8217;ve ridden down freeways the wrong way without the proper safety equipment. It was 3 o&#8217;Clock in the morning tho&#8217; (Beethoven made me do it).</p>
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		<title>By: klaus k</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/02/05/stereotypes-arent-always-completely-unfounded/#comment-172964</link>
		<dc:creator>klaus k</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Feb 2009 10:56:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/02/05/stereotypes-arent-always-completely-unfounded/#comment-172964</guid>
		<description>I drove from Mortdale in Sydney&#039;s south-west to Chippendale (near the CBD) and back yesterday, and decided to do a bit of an informal survey. I encountered the usual number of bad drivers for a trip like that (approximately 40 minutes each way) - ie a lot - and maybe 2 or 3 very stupid things were observed.

Given that the route included parts of Sydney&#039;s inner west, including King St Newtown, I expected to, and did, observe a few more cyclists than would be typically seen in other parts of Sydney. I counted 12 in all actually mobile on bicycles. Of those, only 2 were riding on the road in what I consider to be a safe fashion: one making his way along a quiet street, the other pulled up and stopped at a set of lights waiting to turn. 8 cyclists were riding on footpaths and didn&#039;t come onto the road for the time that I was observing them. 1 cyclist ran a red light, switched from the road to the footpath and back several times while in view. The final cyclist of the 12 crossed King Street diagonally in front of a stream of traffic after running a red light, and then rode up at full speed onto the footpath narrowly missing several pedestrians.

I don&#039;t infer anything much from this - most of the cyclists observed weren&#039;t putting others in danger - but I do consider it a fairly typical set of observations, and wouldn&#039;t be surprised if the proportion of badly behaved cyclists was similar to that of badly behaved drivers, if we were to define &#039;badly behaved&#039; as, through pig-headedness or obliviousness, causing danger to themselves and others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I drove from Mortdale in Sydney&#8217;s south-west to Chippendale (near the CBD) and back yesterday, and decided to do a bit of an informal survey. I encountered the usual number of bad drivers for a trip like that (approximately 40 minutes each way) &#8211; ie a lot &#8211; and maybe 2 or 3 very stupid things were observed.</p>
<p>Given that the route included parts of Sydney&#8217;s inner west, including King St Newtown, I expected to, and did, observe a few more cyclists than would be typically seen in other parts of Sydney. I counted 12 in all actually mobile on bicycles. Of those, only 2 were riding on the road in what I consider to be a safe fashion: one making his way along a quiet street, the other pulled up and stopped at a set of lights waiting to turn. 8 cyclists were riding on footpaths and didn&#8217;t come onto the road for the time that I was observing them. 1 cyclist ran a red light, switched from the road to the footpath and back several times while in view. The final cyclist of the 12 crossed King Street diagonally in front of a stream of traffic after running a red light, and then rode up at full speed onto the footpath narrowly missing several pedestrians.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t infer anything much from this &#8211; most of the cyclists observed weren&#8217;t putting others in danger &#8211; but I do consider it a fairly typical set of observations, and wouldn&#8217;t be surprised if the proportion of badly behaved cyclists was similar to that of badly behaved drivers, if we were to define &#8216;badly behaved&#8217; as, through pig-headedness or obliviousness, causing danger to themselves and others.</p>
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		<title>By: FDB</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/02/05/stereotypes-arent-always-completely-unfounded/#comment-172963</link>
		<dc:creator>FDB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Feb 2009 07:37:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/02/05/stereotypes-arent-always-completely-unfounded/#comment-172963</guid>
		<description>Wolverina - the only point made as far as I can see is that &lt;i&gt;the proportion of road use&lt;/i&gt; consisting of bike riders is tiny.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wolverina &#8211; the only point made as far as I can see is that <i>the proportion of road use</i> consisting of bike riders is tiny.</p>
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		<title>By: wolverina</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/02/05/stereotypes-arent-always-completely-unfounded/#comment-172962</link>
		<dc:creator>wolverina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Feb 2009 06:49:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/02/05/stereotypes-arent-always-completely-unfounded/#comment-172962</guid>
		<description>Francis Xavier Holden and Mr Merkel miss the point in the original article of the 1.5million bikes sold. It was not suggesting that all these bicycles (and their riders) are surging onto the roads to replace cars, but rather that as a proportion of the population bike riders aren&#039;t really a minority. Sure there are minorities of regular cycle commuters; racers, cafe riders, etc, but with so many australian households having a bike, even if it is only ridden very occasionally, we aren&#039;t really an &quot;out&quot; group but rather represent a reasonable demographic spread.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Francis Xavier Holden and Mr Merkel miss the point in the original article of the 1.5million bikes sold. It was not suggesting that all these bicycles (and their riders) are surging onto the roads to replace cars, but rather that as a proportion of the population bike riders aren&#8217;t really a minority. Sure there are minorities of regular cycle commuters; racers, cafe riders, etc, but with so many australian households having a bike, even if it is only ridden very occasionally, we aren&#8217;t really an &#8220;out&#8221; group but rather represent a reasonable demographic spread.</p>
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		<title>By: Roger Jones</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/02/05/stereotypes-arent-always-completely-unfounded/#comment-172961</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 12:03:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/02/05/stereotypes-arent-always-completely-unfounded/#comment-172961</guid>
		<description>#135 Chris,

there is an obverse case where bike riders may become better car drivers - I recommend everyone who is fit to do so practise on different modes of transport. No doubt folks will come up with examples that will break this rule. But I drive like I ride, looking 360 as much as possible and gauging what drivers will do next. But I find more freedom on the bike, so prefer that.

And defensive riding I find like defensive driving - it can actually be safer, faster - if you can gauge what drivers are going to do (watch their &quot;drift&quot; - most drivers indicate by their motion what they are going to do next - I only slow down when I detect erratic behaviour or indecision). If you have enough strength in your legs to accelerate out of a particular position, then you&#039;re good to go.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#135 Chris,</p>
<p>there is an obverse case where bike riders may become better car drivers &#8211; I recommend everyone who is fit to do so practise on different modes of transport. No doubt folks will come up with examples that will break this rule. But I drive like I ride, looking 360 as much as possible and gauging what drivers will do next. But I find more freedom on the bike, so prefer that.</p>
<p>And defensive riding I find like defensive driving &#8211; it can actually be safer, faster &#8211; if you can gauge what drivers are going to do (watch their &#8220;drift&#8221; &#8211; most drivers indicate by their motion what they are going to do next &#8211; I only slow down when I detect erratic behaviour or indecision). If you have enough strength in your legs to accelerate out of a particular position, then you&#8217;re good to go.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/02/05/stereotypes-arent-always-completely-unfounded/#comment-172960</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 09:57:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/02/05/stereotypes-arent-always-completely-unfounded/#comment-172960</guid>
		<description>TIB @ 125 - I think you make some very good points. As I&#039;ve gained experience cycling on roads I&#039;ve learnt to ride a lot more defensively - riding on the basis that cars haven&#039;t seen me (eg being very cautious when cars are turning left over a cycle lane I&#039;m in). Its a slower trip, but much safer.

I think there are some things that governments can do to help. People laugh a bit about the &quot;green forcefields&quot; on cycle lanes in Canberra - they paint the cycle lanes bright green on some major roads in the areas where its common for cars to merge on or turn off. Its just a simple reminder to car drivers that cyclists have right of way there and I think it helps.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TIB @ 125 &#8211; I think you make some very good points. As I&#8217;ve gained experience cycling on roads I&#8217;ve learnt to ride a lot more defensively &#8211; riding on the basis that cars haven&#8217;t seen me (eg being very cautious when cars are turning left over a cycle lane I&#8217;m in). Its a slower trip, but much safer.</p>
<p>I think there are some things that governments can do to help. People laugh a bit about the &#8220;green forcefields&#8221; on cycle lanes in Canberra &#8211; they paint the cycle lanes bright green on some major roads in the areas where its common for cars to merge on or turn off. Its just a simple reminder to car drivers that cyclists have right of way there and I think it helps.</p>
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		<title>By: Moz</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/02/05/stereotypes-arent-always-completely-unfounded/#comment-172959</link>
		<dc:creator>Moz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 07:35:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/02/05/stereotypes-arent-always-completely-unfounded/#comment-172959</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote cite=&quot; chinda63No Gravatar&quot;&gt;The number of times I have come around a blind corner, early in the morning, with sun filtering through the trees making visibility difficult, only to come across a cyclist (sometimes two riding abreast), wearing black, riding smack, bang in the middle of the lane instead of in the hard shoulder is truly frightening. That no-one has been killed is frankly a miracle.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Have you considered driving responsibly?

The law is actually very clear on this - you are required to drive at such a speed that you can stop safely in the distance you can see. Driving around a blind corner in the hope that the road is clear is illegal as well as stupid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote cite=" chinda63No Gravatar"><p>The number of times I have come around a blind corner, early in the morning, with sun filtering through the trees making visibility difficult, only to come across a cyclist (sometimes two riding abreast), wearing black, riding smack, bang in the middle of the lane instead of in the hard shoulder is truly frightening. That no-one has been killed is frankly a miracle.</p></blockquote>
<p>Have you considered driving responsibly?</p>
<p>The law is actually very clear on this &#8211; you are required to drive at such a speed that you can stop safely in the distance you can see. Driving around a blind corner in the hope that the road is clear is illegal as well as stupid.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Hollo</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/02/05/stereotypes-arent-always-completely-unfounded/#comment-172958</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Hollo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 07:17:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/02/05/stereotypes-arent-always-completely-unfounded/#comment-172958</guid>
		<description>Martin B, Yobbo seems to be trolling here. It&#039;s been pointed out a couple of times already that many cyclists aren&#039;t just cycling for sport/recreation, but he&#039;s not interested.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Martin B, Yobbo seems to be trolling here. It&#8217;s been pointed out a couple of times already that many cyclists aren&#8217;t just cycling for sport/recreation, but he&#8217;s not interested.</p>
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		<title>By: Yobbo</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/02/05/stereotypes-arent-always-completely-unfounded/#comment-172957</link>
		<dc:creator>Yobbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 07:07:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/02/05/stereotypes-arent-always-completely-unfounded/#comment-172957</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Secondly, the ‘danger’ posed by cyclists is in no way commensurable with the danger posed by speeding drivers, so it is fatuous to suggest that the policy responses (ie banning them) should be equivalent.&lt;/em&gt;

You completely miss this point Martin. It&#039;s not about what&#039;s dangerous. It&#039;s about what roads are for.

Saying that cyclists should receive &quot;equal rights&quot; in road use completely ignores the reasons that the roads are there to begin with: Transport.

Bicycles are not for transport, they are for recreation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Secondly, the ‘danger’ posed by cyclists is in no way commensurable with the danger posed by speeding drivers, so it is fatuous to suggest that the policy responses (ie banning them) should be equivalent.</em></p>
<p>You completely miss this point Martin. It&#8217;s not about what&#8217;s dangerous. It&#8217;s about what roads are for.</p>
<p>Saying that cyclists should receive &#8220;equal rights&#8221; in road use completely ignores the reasons that the roads are there to begin with: Transport.</p>
<p>Bicycles are not for transport, they are for recreation.</p>
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