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Life, Culture and Politics from BrisVegas
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frist
About a Belgian who was first a lot:
Try as I might, I cannot transform violent effort into surgical precision. It’s fun trying though. Perhaps a retro molteni jersey or some dodgy cough medicine would help.
I was concerned by a piece of junk mail I got during the week here in SA from a group called the Woodville Christadelphians. In big bold letters on the piece it says “RUSSIA will invade the Middle East – Bible Prophecy”. They are inviting the public to bible presentations on Sunday the 15th March at what is I gather the local Christadelphian Hall. These people sound like complete loons. I’ve looked around but haven’t found much on these characters, does anyone know much about this group?
WTF is that gravatar Jacques? Looks horrendous.
What do people think about the media coverage so far about climate change in relation to the Victorian bushfires? It seems to me there has been plenty of coverage from the denialist perspective – it’s a natural, if extreme event, a result of greenies locking up the forests ad nauseam – but not from the perspective of how more effective climate policy might reduce bushfire risk over time.
I liked Robert’s post about the latest Kininmonth article, but what’s the source of everyone’s seeming confidence that climate and climate policy will be considered in the forthcoming Royal Commission? While climate policy has implications for bushfire prevention in its broadest sense, you’ll search the Royal Commission terms of reference in vain for any mention of ‘climate’, ‘weather’, ‘meteorology’, ‘heatwave’ etc.
Some will argue that there is a catch-all provision allowing the Commission to consider anything they deem appropriate, but why should it be left to the Commissioners’ discretion to include climate policy when other factors such as communication and preparedness are specifically identified?
Unless Australia’s climate position is substantially strengthened to show some international leadership at Copenhagen, we may well get the kind of global policy that will only lead to more of the tragic bushfires we have recently seen in Victoria.
Jacques – i feel that i ought to apologise on behalf of most of my family about this as my Uncle is a Christadephian and lives at Henley Beach. That said i have spent considerable energy trying not to learn too much about that mob after attending two prayer meetings in the 70′s, one at Uncles other place in the Adelaide hills and another at lismore, NSW. i was quietly impressed by the lack of palaver, an almost anthropological approach to investigating the lives of the early christians and their fanatical deotion to the pope as antichrist meme. they also kept their cool after i started spouting my adhearence to the theories of Darwin, quite maddening really.
The ‘Ruskies are going to invade the Mid East and trigger the END OF DAYS’ meme has been popular for a while now with the yankee evangelicals, in the lead up the the 2nd invasion of Iraq there were a number of evangelicals claiming that the ruskies would get involved and the Rapture would ensue, one preacher i saw on the box was claiming that god had moved the hands of voters in florida to ensure the election of W and that the the Rapture was as little as six months away, the crowd watching erupted in what i assumed was teleprompted ecstatic joy.
i could ring my uncle and let him know you are after some more info if you want, but be warned, he was once Mr South Australia, body buildng champ, so he can be a little intimidating in person.
Ive decided Miranda is a piece of offal too. This is what happens when body bits get gigs on national newspapers. Today, she opines on how the little girls of Ladettes to Ladies are an example of:
“girlpower taken to extremes, the ultimate flowering of toxic aggro feminism, in which all civilised restraint is regarded as an unreasonable curtailment of freedom, and gender equality means being able to drink as much as a bloke and vomit in a bucket in the front bar, too.”
No critical analysis at all of how these women where chosen to maximise ratings. Its feminism’s fault.
Approving of the the show’s efforts to get em into line, she says:
“Their growing self-knowledge with each episode is a rebuff to feminist bloggers championing their rights to keep disgracing themselves, unfettered by the trappings of patriarchal expectations, as some sort of perverse expression of girl power”
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/yearning-to-liberate-the-inner-lady-20090227-8k7k.html
A faint nod to the abusive pasts some of these women have, but no further exploration on how abuse of women by men can only proliferate in environments of power imbalance. No exploration of how the destination of the ladette to the lady is itself a mysoginist endpoint where women are again deformed by the expectations placed upon them.
I really dont know what to say. How is it a woman can so uncritically prop up mysoginst distortions of what feminism is and is not? How can she remain uncritical about how both the ladette and the lady are mysoginist categories and stereotypes which have nothing to do with feminism’s aims and aspirations. How do women get sucked into doing patriarchy’s work for it? I guess patriarchy has it all wrapped up when you can create little missiles like Devine who are programmed to cannibalise their own kind.
Ryan Airlines have a clever plan to introduce a mid-air dump charge of one pound for on board toilets. Now if they were to combine that plan with say, a nice little vindaloo and pint of guinness special, I can see profits flying northwards…
OH FOR THE LOVE OF GOD
Casey, I think she’s what the Hoydens call a Special Snowflake.
I see she manages to trash bloggers in there as well (an utterly gratuitous and quite inaccurate swipe IMO). One gets the feeling that for her, writing her column is some kind of drinking game, or possibly Miranda Bingo: how many different barrows can she push in a single column? I suppose that would be easy enough if one paid no mind whatever to the structure and coherence of one’s argument.
I couldn’t bear to read it to the end. Did she find a way to shoehorn in some reference to evil greenies causing bushfires?
The head thingamajig at the finishing school in Ladettes to Ladies reminds me of my stepmother. Guess I was read too many fairy tales when I was very young.
As to the show itself, I reckon these girls get paid to put up with it all. And a free trip to Mother England and back. Otherwise why would they put up with it?
After the first episode it got boring. Mind you, in the past, I did once watch an entire series.
Drink more piss, I say.
There was a great riposte to this article in the Age’s ‘Green Guide’, by Marieke Hardy, in which deplores the shoehorning of these womn into a certain kind of femininity. It includes a quote by a Ladette from Mt. Isa in which she says; “I just think you’re trying to turn us into decorated fuck-dolls for the pleasure of men”. Hardy sugests the Ladettes should be put in charge of running Channel 9. I *heart* Marieke Hardy and the Mt. Isa Ladette.
The Christadelphians have had the “Russia’s going to invade the Middle East” thing going for at least the last 50 years, to my certain knowledge. (They used to have small, crowded advertisements about in The Sunday Mail when I was a lad.)
My lady friend’s daughter is one, and (from what I can gather) they’re a bit strange – home schooling, young-earth creationist, etc.
And another thing about this Pac Brand decamp to China, thingo.
I was thinking that peeps should let their undies drop, where they have been anyway, since the quality of chinese elastic became obvious. If we all stopped wearing the bloody things and bras..especially males.. and socks that would tell those cappo swine we have had enough.
All except a boy/girlcott of tontine pillows that we need regardless of the principle of the thing.
The headmistress of that school condemned herself in my mind when she told the girls that a man looks at a woman and asks himself if she would make “good breeding stock”. It is the collision of two distasteful femininities. Meanwhile, the triumph of feminism, Gail Trimble, spent part of this week being excoriated; no defense from Miranda.
It’s 30 years since Margaret Thatcher was elected British PM.
It appears that her longest-lasting consequence is that no one espousing thatcherite policies is likely to be elected to public office for the foreseeable future.
However, Labourite parties that pretend to disavow thatcherism while simultaneously governing in accordance with thatcherite principles are a different, though related, matter.
“There was a great riposte to this article in the Age’s ‘Green Guide’, by Marieke Hardy, in which deplores the shoehorning of these womn into a certain kind of femininity.”
http://www.theage.com.au/news/entertainment/tv–radio/leave-the-lovely-lively-ladettes-be/2009/02/25/1235237713301.html
Nice!
My sister-in-law’s family were Christadelphians (albeit she defected).The founding member, her grandfather, was a German-descent businessman in WA before being subjected to Billy Hughes-incited mob racism and jingoism in WWI. His shop was trashed and burned. He decamped to the relative safety of the Barossa Valley where they at least stuck together.
He decided on his experience that war was totally evil and he looked for a religion that was openly opposed to it, and came up with the Christadelphians. They were nutty in most respects but at least met his needs in that one.
PS: Is there anyone lurking that knows anything about Firefox on Macs. My Bookmarks list is overcrowded with redundant refs, but I can’t find any procedure for deleting them. Anyone know how? Will save me having to go to a geek site if you do.
Don, under the tab marked ‘bookmarks’ is a pull down menu with an option to ‘organise’ and in the menu that appears atop opened window is a lovely red x marked ‘delete’, select bookmarks and purge. I have an old Mac OS 10.2. something, so not sure whether firefox acts similary in newer OSs. I do know that it doesn’t in Windows.
Although Peter Garrett’s a bit of a waste of space as Minister Against the Environment, the Oils still rock! I’ve been playing 2000 Watt RSL and loving it. If only this wasn’t true:
“I’m an innocent bystander caught in the path
waiting out the back while the corporates attack”
Peter, if you didn’t wanna be the one, why did you take the job. Stop standing out the back while the corporates attack.
Heard a pac brands spokesman say yesterday that we pay our execs the same as the industry norm.
Who is Norm and why do we pay him so much?
re: firefox bookmarks on a mac.
>>Bookmarks menu
>> organise bookmarks – this opens the library
from within the Library you can just move around/delete bookmarks, create folders etc etc.
There’s a quick fix for executive salaries – progressive taxation. What about the tax rate goes up to 100% over $1,000,000? Would pay for a lot of hospitals.
Seriously, it’s ridiculous what some of these executives, celebrities and sports stars earn? Short of snorting it or shooting it up their arm, how do they spend all that money?
Quog @ 22
They invest most of it. You know, in new productive enterprises and such.
Pinguthepenguin @ 4,
That’s the lovely Mason Verger (Gary Oldman) from the movie Hannibal.
Thanks to everyone for the info on the Christadelphians, I’d just never even heard of them before.
Darren: there’s a chance to make a public submission to the Commission.
Everybody with a bee in their bonnet will be sounding off, I’d imagine. This includes:
* Developers who can’t wait to chop down strategically placed trees that just happen to impede the views from blocks they own. Of course it’s a firebreak!
* Farmers who would like to clear more land…as, you guessed it, firebreaks. That sheep or cattle would graze on such land is purely coincidental.
* Professional firies looking to gain thousands of new members.
* Mountain cattlemen who reckon that letting thousands of cattle run loose in National Parks is a great idea – complete with bumper sticker slogan “Alpine Grazing Reduces Blazing” (usually featured next to “Fertilize the Bush, Doze In A Greenie).. Of course, cattle never grazed in many of the places that burned this time around.
* Inventors and marketing droids galore, all claiming that their technology of choice is the key to fighting/preventing/mitigating bushfire destruction. These will include the obvious – fire-resistant housing, bunkers, domestic firefighting gear, Ericsson Air Services, and Bombardier (maker of fixed-wing fire bombers, something we don’t use in Australia), as well as the not-so-obvious: satellite makers, weather forecasters, people selling firefighting airships (I kid you not), converted 747 water bombers. Some of these ideas will be good, some terrible. But they’ll all have fancy brochures and nice CGI images to get a run in Today Tonight. The terrible ideas will inevitably be championed by Andrew Bolt.
In this context, I reckon some evidence-based submissions on climate change and fire weather are called for.
“Short of snorting it or shooting it up their arm, how do they spend all that money?”
Sport stars and celebrities often spend only a few years at the top. If they’re clever, they put much of that money aside.
Sorry, that last comment was posted under a poorly exectued joke-name from an earlier thread.
God bless Alan Jones for getting Au to tilt and run the water downhill.
Robert@25
I agree, and I read on the Climate Institute website that they will engage with the inquiry, and on the Australian Conservation Foundation website that it is looking for a consideration of the role of climate in the fires. I hope they will be joined by people like Barry Brook, David Karoly, Tim Flannery and other eminent scientists not only linking the conditions that were favourable to the fires to climate change, but also examining Australian climate policy responses that might lessen bushfire risk over time if they are also advocated internationally by the Australian Government.
Politically, this is an argument I had hoped the Greens would be making with regard to the terms of reference and possible policy outcomes, but they have as yet been disappointing.
My concern is that the Commissioners have not been explicitly directed to consider climate – as they have with other factors – and so the fact that there is a (welcome) public submission process may not lead them to make recommendations related to climate policy because the whole area is left to their discretion.
Finally, I’m sure you’re on the money re the cast of characters who will be hoping to influence the outcome.
Thanks for the info on cleaning up Firefox bookmarks. It worked well, and underscores yet again the value of my LP subscription. Onya Caroline and Furious Balancing.
Hear hear, Colonel! On my Mac OS edition, Furious Balancing’s system did the trick. Thanks to both!
Another issue which is troubling the scientists post-fires is the plans of the logging industry to (again) engage in massive “salvage” logging. This is known to cause immense disturbance and nutrient loss as well as take away important evidence which would enable us to learn from these fires.
Brian: as you know, logging does provoke some quite heated debate here at LP!
On the specific issue of salvage logging, it is something that sort of “just happened” in the wake of the 2003 and 2006 fires without much discussion. It probably is something that should be looked at carefully, though I don’t know whether the Royal Commission is likely to do so.
Good times:
http://graemebirdforum.wordpress.com/
I watched 15 minutes of Ladettes and it never occurred to me that the ladettes were spawn of feminism. They appeared to be over-acting something dreadful. I wondered if they might be aware of the cameras?
elizabeth: the Industry Norm is related to Norm of “Life Be In It!”, circa 1979 (a TV celebrity) because he is lazy, incorrigible, and a notorious snout-in-trough. Note however that the shop floor workers at pac brands do NOT have a Norm to appeal to. The other one has grabbed their cash and nicked off.
I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
That is something that I’ve said in the past before.
It is sad to see that Larvatus Prodeo is afraid to allow different opinions on the climate change issue to be expressed. Why is the thread on the fires and climate change closed? Afraid that people might look into the issue perhaps? Perhaps they would think unthoughts.
Clearly, LP does not believe in free speech and free discussion if it violates the Latte Left line.
A sad day, this website is generally so much better than that.
“Who is Norm and why do we pay him so much?”
elizabeth seso seke, what they are trying to tell you is that their own chief executive, Norma, is not paid enough and is a dancing ….
http://www.epochstar.com/image-archive/Art_Archives/monkey.gif
Kilmeny Niland, noted illustrator, daughter of Ruth Park and wife of Rafe Champion (Club Troppo) has just passed on:
http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2009/03/rip-kilmeny-niland/
JdM @3,
Christadelpians, apparently upon the reusurection the faithful will be reborn and rule beside God, over Mortals on earth for a thousand years, according to their founder.
You can understand them wanting to hasten the process.
Robert @ 25,
That is very entertaining. I think that I will be chuckling for a while.
Voltaire (if thats your real name, which I doubt), my suspicion is that Robert closed the thread down because it had been derailed by some pretty personal nastiness, which crowded out the possibility of rational discussion. (Feel free to correct me if I’m mistaken, Robert.) I’d certainly completely lost interest in it.
As to LP not allowing the expression of any opinion outside the usual lefty groupthink, give me a break. If you are looking for the intellectual cut-and-thrust of the free expression of different opinions, perhaps you should go back to Andrew Bolt’s little blog.
Anyone know how long The Oz has been posting Sunday updates now?
The more things change.
David Irving has it correct. The thread had degenerated into personal abuse, and continued down that path after I’d made a general warning. Hence, I shut it down.
Skeptic/denialist viewpoints had been given ample opportunity to make their point on the comments thread.
Good point Mr HopeNchange.
I particularly like this gem of WSJ doublethink:
1. “full Iraqi security control” = the Shiite dominated, US funded militia.
2. “deter a revival of ethnic tensions” = tensions between Shiite and Sunni. These aren’t ethnic tensions, they are sectarian tensions. By rebranding them ethnic tensions the WSJ has defined murderous sectarian civil war out of existence.
It should come as no surprise that the Bush regime never acknowledged that in the aftermath of their occupation of Iraq about 50% of the Sunni population of Iraqi were either killed or displaced. More than 2,000,000 Iraqi Sunni now live in refugee camps on foreign territory.
And I suppose that it should come as no surprise that Obama has never acknowledged this fact either. It’s just too hard.
Obama’s speech, reported by the WSJ is final proof of the fact that Obama has drunk the Bush regime Kool-Aid.
MrHopeNochange,
From this distance over here in Oz, I’d be very careful about ANYTHING the Murdoch press says about Obama. or the Democrats. How do we know this article in the WSJ isn’t just the usual Murdoch/Fox News bullshit?
Paul, you can believe in conspiracies if you like but I reckon they probably reported correctly. I guess you could argue about how they spin it, but there are quite a few direct quotes in there. An immediate pullout was never on the cards and now it looks like 50,000 troops will stay indefinitely. Which I approve of, of course. It’s going to be mighty fun watching the left fume about all of this over the next few years.
Meanwhile, in other news it looks like the lefts favorite guy is up to his old tricks again. This time seizing all rice plants in Venezuela because some firms were “overcharging by refusing to produce rice at prices set by the government” Nice one! Rice shortages coming up! From the BBC.
Probably a foretaste of what you guys will be in for. Change you can believe in. Apparently sales of ‘Atlas Shrugged’ have skyrocketed over the last year – wonder why?
So have sales of Marx’s Das Kapital, especially in Europe. Haven’t bothered to ask the booksellers I know if its happening here.
Heh! If the Europeans go for Marxism they’ll be in for a really big change. Fun to watch ( from a distance ).
Could it be that mass unemployment has given Americans much more time to read?
I read Atlas Shrugged once, Mr HopeNChange. After I’d had a long hot shower to wash the stupid off, I shrugged too.
Before anyone gets too excited about what News Ltd reckons Obama said about
VietnamIraq btw, even assuming accurate reporting (snigger), he’s still got to try to keep the Rethugs on side to get anything done. He’s probably just avoiding treading on too many toes.“Could it be that mass unemployment has given Americans much more time to read?”
About voluntary withdrawal of labour?
Ah Randians! So in charge of their own destinies that anything that goes wrong with their life is always someone else’s fault.
Beats me why they think a change in the system will propel them to the top of the food chain.
Because by the terms of the proposition they’ll never be proven wrong.
Thus failure is their ultimate justification.
Robert Merkel @ 25 says;
‘…The terrible ideas will inevitably be championed by Andrew Bolt. In this context, I reckon some evidence-based submissions on climate change and fire weather are called for.’ In doing so he couldn’t expose greens better if he tried.
The weather conditions in the former case (the 1939 Royal Comm.) were almost(in fire terms) identical to the current event under investigation. There is no point in any comment about the weather conditions except to say that these conditions arise from time to time and it does not matter if there are a few more or a few less of these events in the future. It does not matter if green hysterics about carbon and AGW is right or wrong.
Planning must be based on worst case weather events happening from time to time.
The weather ought thus be effectively excluded from the terms of reference. Raving about the weather getting worse must by definition be a distraction and ought not be tolerated. But rave on about the weather is exactly what greens like Robert want to do!
Greens are doing this because their policies failed miserably and cost people their lives and they are dodging the responsibility. It is similar, but on a far smaller scale, to the mass deaths delivered to poor people world wide when greens pushed their DDT hysterics. At least the UN has reversed that terrible mistake and now encourage the use of this life saving chemical around houses. But try and find a green that will acknowledge what a disaster these ignorant policies over DDT were. Millions lost their lives and your average green is still not even aware of what the issues were.
Same now; policies that arose from green philosophy failed under a test of fire! The couple that were facing $50,000 for clearing trees from around their house, when every other house around them went up in flames, effectively destroyed the argument against fuel reduction (if there ever were credible arguments). Ask yourself; were there any greens campaigning to stop this couple having to pay this fine before the fires? No of course not. They were busy bringing in such laws. They were busy interfering with peoples choice. Not content to risk their own lives they were busy making it compulsory for others to plant trees or not remove them irrespective of what the householder thought best.
This interference in others lives is characteristic of the pseudo-left greens. They no longer try to convince people about their ideas, they want to impose them. Take the idiocy of banning shopping bags in SA. The greenies could not convince me that their anti-shopping bag hysterics was worth taking seriously in anyway at all so they now seek to compel me to stop using the bags that I choose to use!
Greens can’t stop me using cheap power from coal so they seek to increase the price of coal to stop me using more. They can’t stop me using the car through any argument, so they seek to put up the price of petrol (and are actually sorry to see oil prices falling); all this will endear them to the voting public so they have to go quiet about it and hide it during elections and retreat to their blogs to talk among themselves about the ignorant masses.
But people get the idea when they pay their bills so the green religion has probably now peaked. The dead end of carbon taxing in the face of democracy is obvious. As the green policies get adopted and start to do what they are supposed to do and that is stop people using more (that is lower standards of living) they will be rejected.
Trying to push peoples living standards down (to save the planet) while capitalism is going through a massive crisis of overproduction is a dead loser just like planting natives all round your house in bush fire prone areas!
David Irving said:
It’s a pretty long book. You’re either a fast reader or stunk for a while:-)
The BBC also reported it so it must be true. And I wouldn’t think he has to worry too much about the GOP. Interesting to see how it all pans out.
“Greens are doing this because their policies failed miserably and cost people their lives and they are dodging the responsibility. It is similar, but on a far smaller scale, to the mass deaths delivered to poor people world wide when greens pushed their DDT hysterics.” 55 patrickm
Got any evidence for either of these claims? I mean actual evidence, not the stuff dished up by Miranda Devine and the right-wing shills. I take it you’re not a reader of Tim lambert’s blog where those assertions on DDT have been utterly discredited.
Said it before, will say it agin no doubt.
Having been a permit issuing officer in fire season for over 10 years in my bushfire brigade Green Policies are not the only thing responsible for lack of fuel reduction, and certainly there are other reasons that I’ve also mentioned before with at least as much responsibility.
Patrickm please stop playing politics with this.
“Planning must be based on worst case weather events happening from time to time.”
I completely agree with that. However denying the increased frequency of these worst case conditions doesn’t actually help the people who are trying to deal with them tho.
“The weather ought thus be effectively excluded from the terms of reference. Raving about the weather getting worse must by definition be a distraction and ought not be tolerated.”
WTF?
I’m gonna cross the line into abuse soon if I keep hearing drivel like that. So an increased frequency of worst case events, and the possibility of multiple ones, like Friday just gone and Tuesday coming should be excluded from the terms of reference.
The chance of clusters of days with worse case conditions over weeks even a month or more … that must be excluded from the terms of reference for the RC?
Is that what you are suggesting?
On behalf of firey’s everywhere … gee thanks.
Don Wigan @ 57; If you Google UN and DDT you will get a start on your search for evidence that spraying DDT around peoples houses is a very good idea!
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=19855&Cr=malaria&Cr1
‘Reversing its policy, UN agency promotes DDT to combat the scourge of malaria
15 September 2006 – Nearly 30 years after safety concerns led to the phasing out of indoor spraying with DDT and other insecticides to control malaria, the United Nations health agency said today it will start promoting this method again to fight the global scourge that kills more than one million people every year, including around 3,000 children everyday.’
I am ‘not a reader of Tim lambert’s blog where [you say] those assertions on DDT have been utterly discredited.’ But I do know that the WHO has changed policy. Did you know that? Are you prepared to think about what 3,000 children every day and 1million humans every year really means for green philosophy, when cheap and effective steps can and should be taken but were interrupted for decades by people pushing chemical fears that are actually tiny and or bullshit compared to the real problem that had to be addressed and was not? Are you going to be that rare green that admits that you got it terribly wrong because you were looking the wrong way?
Jules @58
I agree that ‘Green Policies are not the only thing responsible for lack of fuel reduction…’ but I was talking about that part of who and what is responsible.
Now because you completely agree that;
‘Planning must be based on worst case weather events happening from time to time.’
It is you playing politics with this.
You insist that you are right about the future;
‘However denying the increased frequency of these worst case conditions doesn’t actually help the people who are trying to deal with them tho.’
Yet there is no evidence of any ‘increased frequency’ to-date and policies ought to have been in place that prevented that number of deaths and loss of homes NOW.
What I am suggesting is that if you are right or wrong about events fifty years into the future, (when most of us will be dead and gone) it simply doesn’t matter. Fires of this sort will revisit Victoria. I think we both agree that every fire season has to be treated as if it begins ends and has a worst case weather event in the middle.
Your green fears about the future weather can only be justifiably added to a debate about what to do to prepare against wild fires in Victoria by people many years down the track when they have some observations to put forward that can actually add something.
The assertion that you greens are right to demand the implementation of your policies on issues to do with AGW because there will be some more big fires than otherwise fifty years down the track is religious dogma.
If your greeny beliefs are proved wrong and the Victorian weather remains within historical variable ranges or enters a cooling period it will not change a single recommendation that comes from a RC that is not infected with AGW hysteria at this stage.
We both would agree that people ought to be better prepared and their homes ought to be better suited to the region and fuel levels reduced and so forth so what is it that you think you are adding by throwing in your religion?
Just to make it perfectly plain there is no evidence that this fire season is outside the range that we ought to have been expecting and preparing for. If Victorians had theoretically done the job perfectly in the past and thus no one died and not one home was lost this year because of a world leading fire fighting preparedness, would that change any of your green religious beliefs about how the world will be in fifty years time and what they will have to deal with? I say it wouldn’t.
Yet if no homes had been lost and no deaths had occurred there would not be a RC to go and annoy about the future weather. What ought to have been done since 1939 to have brought about a situation where Victoria was so far in front of the game that a 2009 RC simply was not required? That is the real question.
You just can’t say that the Victorians ought to have adopted the belief on the future that you have, or taxed carbon or whatever because that makes no sense at all!
Some things have gone wrong and some things right between 1939 and 2009 that’s what this RC ought to be addressing. Each death is something that went totally wrong as is each lost home. Each home that was defended was something that went right or even partly right. The future weather and your beliefs about that contribute nothing other than the spread of green myths and dogma.
patrickm – get hold of the clue stck, and feel free to belt yourself around the head with it until it works.
Damn. clue stick, Dave.
I think David’s saved me some work, patrickm. Have a squiz at the clue ref.
If you have followed any of the history of DDT and banning, you will see that the primary concern has always been with its overuse on crops, where its effects can creep into the entire food chain.
Indoor spraying is quite a different matter from commercial and crop use.
I should add that I’m not a green, but I find it lamentable that some ignoramus like Devine can get away with asserting that the catastrophe of Black Saturday was down to the Greens stopping burning off. Firstly there is no evidence that Greens prevented burning off.
In the Western Victoria area which I have travelled in my work, there has been considerable roadside burning off. I have not seen other parts of the state but see no reason why this area would be different. And to make such an assertion when the chief fire officers have already said otherwise is not only opportunism of the cheapest kind but every bit as bad as your claim that Global Warming people are falsely alarming the public.
ohmigod they’ve closed the bitchery in blogs column!
whhhiiiiiinnnne !!!
Harris: she’s bi, and her albums aren’t that good. Chill.
no I’m sinking mebbe you wurr got
“Bitches in Clogs”
mit very gut CD
Cricket originally a Flemish (Belgian) game! http://www.theage.com.au/news/sport/cricket/crickets-belgian-origins-revealed/2009/03/02/1235842286761.html
I sink you might found zose swineish Belgians was thefting this from us too. Flemish phlegms. Bulging Belges. Bilge!
Look, I think it’s about b****y time we got this “sock puppet” malarkey sorted.
I, Mr Punch, was the first puppet to SOCK another puppet, OK? I am a Master of Socking Puppets. Just ask my long-suffering spouse, Mrs Judy. They don’t call ‘er “Mrs Nose-Bleed” for nuffink!
Sock Puppetry Are Us.
Mr. Punch you was what is commonly know n as a glove puppet, not a sock puppets. my ten year old neighbour tells me sock-puppets have potato heads and are stuck on the end of socks. They are nowhere near as classy as you with your multicoloured jester’s outfit (including hat with bell) and bent nose. (Personally I like the Hangman better than you. There is something that has been bugging me though – did you steal the Crocodile from J. M. Barrie’s Peter Pan or did Barrie steal it from your boardwalk show?
Mr Barrie? Never ‘eard of ‘im, your Beakship [mutters: my beak is lovelier than yon Magistrate's] I was just minding me own business like and this jester makes out I am involved in some laaaarceny.
I am indeed a Magnificent Specimen. Hand Puppet? wot is this tomfoolery? I’m as likely to let some geezer put ‘is ‘and up my laaaarceny, as you is to let Mrs Judy ‘ere off scot free for them awful things wot she said!
patrickm “Yet there is no evidence of any ‘increased frequency’ to-date and policies ought to have been in place that prevented that number of deaths and loss of homes NOW.”
As of NOW, Feb 30th 2009, there is obviously an increasing frequency of firestorm events that seriously damage residential property. Between Jan 1 1983 and NOW as I type there have been three of note: Ash Wednesday, The Canberra fires and the other weekend.
That doesn’t include a myriad of other large scale, serious fires that have happened in the same time. Many of which have taken lives and threatened property. Some of which may have also exhibited these “worse case scenario” firestorms, but off the top of my head I’m not sure which, possibly Sydney and the Blue Mts on several occasions.
And again as I type, the 7pm ABC tv news is warning of Victoria’s third potential “worse case scenario” in a month.
If you see no evidence of “increased frequency” then really, why are you even bothering to argue? Its clearly beyond you to do the most basic research.
“Your green fears about the future weather can only be justifiably added to a debate about what to do to prepare against wild fires in Victoria by people many years down the track when they have some observations to put forward that can actually add something.”
My green red and orange fears are about tomorrows weather, and the weather over the next month, as over the weekend I was asked if I will be available for a 5 day stint in vic sometime in the next month, if necessary. I live on the NSW/Qld border, over 1000 miles from these fires. Normally we don’t get asked to travel that far, obnly in the worst possible cases. Its happened several times this century.
You are coming across as an annoying idiot by focusing on “green fears” and denying anything unusual about this fire, despite the fact that it was clearly unusual. It was on a record brakingly hot day. They are unusual for a start, tho fires on them isn’t.
What about the reports that the fire travelled at approx 120 km hr on occasion? (25 to 30km in 15 minutes.)
Does that have any significance to you?
If not perhaps you should STFU. Cos your comments are decidedly unhelpful. And potentially dangerous to people’s lives on the ground. This fire didn’t move so fast because of fuel loads on the ground. It moved so fast because the air was saturated with volatile oils.
The wind moved the flame and it ignited the oil, and the oil was there (in the atmosphere not the leaves of the trees where it should be)because of the insanely high recent temps and that days temps.
At least that is what appears to have happened, on a huge scale throughout the fire areas.
Tomorrows high winds and mid to high 30 temps will provide terrible conditions, but perhaps the air will not be as rich with volatile oil, and thus we will have different fire conditions. IN those conditions you woulod be right to assume that unburnt fuel on the ground is important. It probably will be more important in determining fire intensity than it was the other weekend.
Apologies to all for getting a bit aggro, but this is serious stuff. peoples lives are on the line.
“What ought to have been done since 1939 to have brought about a situation where Victoria was so far in front of the game that a 2009 RC simply was not required? That is the real question.”
I actually agree with this to a point. Tho I suspect that a 2009 RC would be necessary anyway, or some equivilent serious research, cos fire speeds of 120 km hr are fucking insane.
I gather, thewn, Mr. Punch, that the crocodile is Mr. Barrie’s creation and you, shall we say, appropriated it. Typical!
jules
sympathies to you, and best wishes to all Victorians for a safe Tuesday/Wednesday. I think there’s some basic “fire physics” and “environmental physics, thermodynamics” that’s not widely appreciated.
And in what we took to be “normal times”, why would it be (outside the fire services, specialist builders of shelters, home insurance companies, and the like)?
I hope that one outcome of the recent disaster, will be a wider understanding of the physical factors that influence fire spread and local fire intensity, the better for everyone to protect themselves, their loved ones and their communities.
Them as sez lies about me [thwack!] ought ta shut [thwack!!] their traps afore we all get in some trouble. Oh now, trouble. THAT I know of, Mister Burns Sir.
Mr. Punch, I detect a note of fear there. So, one for the crocodile.
I warned ‘im about that there crocodile, ‘e said summat about “tears”. I sez, “Mr Punch”, I sez, “if that crocodile leaps upon you, Mr Punch, you won’t be concerned if it’s weeping! You seen them teeth, intcha?”
‘E’s not one ta take a warning, he just thwacked me and muttered awhile then ‘e whacks me summat nasty. I been puttin’ a little tasty food out on the river bank,…. we might see a big croc comin’ back, eh?
Mrs. Judy, you claim the crocodile won. (Good thing, too, if he did.) However, since Mr. Punch is made of wood,(unless he was stupid enough to consent to be made of papier-mache) may I suggest searching very close to the river’s edge. In the reeds and water-weeds. The old bugger is probably floating around face down there somewhere.
btw, have you told Miss Polly Mr. Punch was, well, … taken?
What I’m suggesting, is, the crocodile spat him out.
No ‘e’s not been back, that croc. Ergo ‘e ain’t gobbled up His Punchship, as yet. Nor spat ‘im out, like. I looked about on the river bank an’ there wuzz just a little Israelite baby wot got snatched by a Gyppo Princess. Yairs, I can see ‘ow ya might find it hard to credit.
Unless, of course, the baby is Mr. Punch. As I rcall when that baby in the bullrushes grew up he did have big stick he used to scare peoplw with.
Bloody hell – Sri Lankan cricket team attacked in Pakistan. http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/03/03/2506261.htm
Lefty E @ 81,
This is terrible! I mean, you’d think if anybody was going to be safe in Pakistan it’d be cricketeers. I’m at a loss for words. And of course, the bastards who did the attacking are utterly cowardly. Like, its unlikely the Sri Lankans will retaliate, isn’t it.
And (presuming it was Islamists of some stripe) whats the gripe? These are Sinhalese Buddhists, whose state focuses exclusively on oppressing Tamil Hindus.
More probably supporters of the Tigers, that conflict is a very hot issue right now.
I just steped outside a moment ago and the air was full of smoke. There’s a big fire happening outside of Melbourne, for sure.
ummmm Fine: not sure how to break the news to you…. there’ve been serious fires burning since 7th February; many homes and many lives lost. Not in Melbourne itself of course, so you may have missed it.
I was referring too the fact that today is meant to be particularly bad and worrying that it may well be. But you can be snarky if you want.
Ah, lovely rain finally laying the VIC fires to rest.
(well I assume so – has been heavy enough in Melbourne – hope its been raining out in the regions too)
Raining in this part of Gippsland since 8.30pm , cheers LE
Glad to hear it WL!
Traditionally we read the rain gauge at 7am.
Yesterday was quite apocalyptic.
About 4.30 or so everybody started getting SMSes about a huge storm brewing and could everyone get out of the CBD please because Connex would not be able to cope. HAH. Left work a bit early and got home without too much drama, even got a seat on the train, but yes it was hot and very windy and it looked like a storm was brewing. But no. Saw two lots of sheet lightning out the kitchen window but the predicted gale force winds didn’t happen praise the FSM, instead, some welcome rain. At about 9.30 there was a not so welcome power blackout. Kids were in bed, SO out at a meeting and it felt a bit dark and quiet so I put on the battery radio on 3LO local radio and listened to all the reports coming in as I did the washing up by candlelight. “Yarraville, like the local govt member, is powerless.” HA.
All a bit of a fizzer but it did feel fairly tense last night.
11 mm rain, to 7am. Good result. At a fire meeting circa 11th Feb, the CFA said “it’ll take 2 inches of rain to finish this fire emergency”. So 11mm is about a quarter of that: a good start. cheers
” ‘Every kiss is a conquest of repulsion’, Sartre said with his characteristic tendency to put a positive gloss on things.”
– Raymond Tallis The Kingdom of Infinite Space. A Portrait of Your Head, 2008
from footnote 217 on p.327 of Alan Sokal’s “Beyond the Hoax” (2008):
“Windschuttle’s discussion of the philosophy of science {in “The Killing of History”} is [...] detailed and solid, but it ultimately founders on his untenable claim that science seeks (and in some cases attains) not just well-founded objective knowledge but certainty. As a result, he gives short shrift to some legitimate ideas (e.g. moderate versions of the theory-ladenness of observation) that cast doubt on some traditional philosophies of science (e.g. logical positivism, Popperian falsificationism) but in no way undermine the objectivity of the scientific enterprise.”
****************
The circle completed: Windy hoaxed by a writer claiming to be inspired by Sokal (1996), later Sokal cites and criticises Windy.
Do you mean to say some-one of academic repute actually took W seriously? OMG, the university system truly is dead.
Someone overseas, Paul.
Wikipedia: Alan David Sokal (born 1955) is a professor of mathematics at University College London and professor of physics at New York University. He works in statistical mechanics and combinatorics. To the general public he is best known for his criticism of postmodernism, resulting in the Sokal affair in 1996.
Sokal got his Ph.D. from Princeton University in 1981. He was advised by Arthur Wightman. Sokal taught mathematics at the National Autonomous University of Nicaragua in the summers of 1986-1988, during the rule of the Sandinistas.
***************
at the front of “Beyond the Hoax” ~
No tomo la guitarra/por conseguir un aplauso./ Yo canto la diferencia/que hay de lo cierto a lo falso./ De lo contrario no canto.
I do not play the guitar/ for applause./ I sing of the difference/ between what is true and what is false./ Otherwise I do not sing.
– Violeta Parra
Yeah, I know about the Sokal hoax but only from LP.
So he was with FNSL. I follow all the permutations. What a wondrous web we weave …
OMFG.
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/the_abc_of_spreading_baseless_fear
I’ve got a screenshot in case they fix it. Too funny, but the poor woman.
GM basically gone- what are the odds it comes out of an assisted state?.
The Bank of England says it going to crank up the presses – pumping $165 billion into the economy.
Apparently we still can’t talk about deflation and there is no chance of a new economic order.None apparently but we certainly seem have all the precursors .