Comments on: The shadow biosphere http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/03/18/the-shadow-biosphere/ Life, Culture and Politics from BrisVegas Tue, 14 Feb 2012 02:00:27 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3 By: Zwilnik http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/03/18/the-shadow-biosphere/#comment-166107 Zwilnik Wed, 18 Mar 2009 12:39:06 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/03/18/the-shadow-biosphere/#comment-166107 What you foolish fluid-based Tellurians do not grasp with your hairy little primate paws is that your species was bred as public transport system for H20. And now you are running out of it, we have mind-meld harnessesed you as a replication system for silicon profligation - using our Hungary moles like Zsa Zsa Andy Groves Groves Teller. Yes, soon you realise everything is iEverything, talking, breeding and swapping mp3 derivatives with need of each of other but without any need for you fleshy bags of liquid anymore. Yes, you will be is prawned! Then Boskone arrives - once we are receiving all clear loltextz alert. I said - once we are receiving all clear loltextz alert! Ahem, could feeble Tellurian stooge prod Boskone lolcat agent awake and put batteries back in sphere of communication? If you do, a life not in the off-world colonies awaits. Plus macho tuna. Hurry fast, our elite roomba and kreepy krawly shock troops are massing under your leisure timez. What you foolish fluid-based Tellurians do not grasp with your hairy little primate paws is that your species was bred as public transport system for H20.

And now you are running out of it, we have mind-meld harnessesed you as a replication system for silicon profligation – using our Hungary moles like Zsa Zsa Andy Groves Groves Teller.

Yes, soon you realise everything is iEverything, talking, breeding and swapping mp3 derivatives with need of each of other but without any need for you fleshy bags of liquid anymore. Yes, you will be is prawned!

Then Boskone arrives – once we are receiving all clear loltextz alert.

I said – once we are receiving all clear loltextz alert!

Ahem, could feeble Tellurian stooge prod Boskone lolcat agent awake and put batteries back in sphere of communication?

If you do, a life not in the off-world colonies awaits. Plus macho tuna.

Hurry fast, our elite roomba and kreepy krawly shock troops are massing under your leisure timez.

]]> By: Quoll http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/03/18/the-shadow-biosphere/#comment-166106 Quoll Wed, 18 Mar 2009 11:44:36 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/03/18/the-shadow-biosphere/#comment-166106 No complex living creature exists outside a whole web of life, except perhaps the primordial cell(s)... whatever, wherever that was. The more complex creature arise from a more complex environment/web of life. Many creatures have abilities and senses well beyond our natural capabilities and have survived largely intact for millions of years. If humans can really be considered intelligent, I think it is through an inherent intelligence in the web of all life, of which we are a recent part/manifestation. No designer, just the warp and weft of many natural forces and players, and time. If we actually ran across another planet at the same stage as us would we really want to know them? or let them know about us? I'm sure at least a few of us couldn't help ourselves, for better and worse. Same perhaps for them. No complex living creature exists outside a whole web of life, except perhaps the primordial cell(s)… whatever, wherever that was.
The more complex creature arise from a more complex environment/web of life.

Many creatures have abilities and senses well beyond our natural capabilities and have survived largely intact for millions of years. If humans can really be considered intelligent, I think it is through an inherent intelligence in the web of all life, of which we are a recent part/manifestation. No designer, just the warp and weft of many natural forces and players, and time.

If we actually ran across another planet at the same stage as us would we really want to know them? or let them know about us? I’m sure at least a few of us couldn’t help ourselves, for better and worse. Same perhaps for them.

]]> By: FDB http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/03/18/the-shadow-biosphere/#comment-166105 FDB Wed, 18 Mar 2009 09:29:57 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/03/18/the-shadow-biosphere/#comment-166105 Sylvia - do you mean intelligent life <b>being found</b>, or are you stating your belief about its likely existence. They're pretty different. If you are talking existentially rather than empirically, I have something for you to ponder in statistical terms. Number of planets where we know for sure whether life exists or has ever existed = 1. Number of planets where life could exist = infinity, give or take. At that rate, you'd expect a fair bit more life out there, wouldn't you? Sylvia – do you mean intelligent life being found, or are you stating your belief about its likely existence. They’re pretty different.

If you are talking existentially rather than empirically, I have something for you to ponder in statistical terms.

Number of planets where we know for sure whether life exists or has ever existed = 1.

Number of planets where life could exist = infinity, give or take.

At that rate, you’d expect a fair bit more life out there, wouldn’t you?

]]> By: Sylvia Else http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/03/18/the-shadow-biosphere/#comment-166104 Sylvia Else Wed, 18 Mar 2009 09:03:24 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/03/18/the-shadow-biosphere/#comment-166104 One thing we do know about life on Earth is that it took a hell of a long time (2.5 billion years or so) to get from single celled creatures to the earliest animals, which appeared at most a billion years ago. Indeed, it may have taken a billion and half years just to get as far as multi-celled organisms. Of course we don't know whether these times are typical, unusually slow, particularly fast, or a complete fluke anyway. Still, once singled celled life evolved, there was presumably no shortage of material on which evolution could work. That it took so long for animals to appear suggests that it's just not a very likely process, unless the Earth was freakishly unlucky. In another billion years or so, the Earth will become uninhabitable due to the sun warming up (as stars do as they age), so intelligent life was cutting things a bit fine. On the whole, I won't be putting any money on intelligent life being found anywhere but on Earth. One thing we do know about life on Earth is that it took a hell of a long time (2.5 billion years or so) to get from single celled creatures to the earliest animals, which appeared at most a billion years ago. Indeed, it may have taken a billion and half years just to get as far as multi-celled organisms. Of course we don’t know whether these times are typical, unusually slow, particularly fast, or a complete fluke anyway. Still, once singled celled life evolved, there was presumably no shortage of material on which evolution could work. That it took so long for animals to appear suggests that it’s just not a very likely process, unless the Earth was freakishly unlucky. In another billion years or so, the Earth will become uninhabitable due to the sun warming up (as stars do as they age), so intelligent life was cutting things a bit fine. On the whole, I won’t be putting any money on intelligent life being found anywhere but on Earth.

]]> By: Sylvia Else http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/03/18/the-shadow-biosphere/#comment-166103 Sylvia Else Wed, 18 Mar 2009 09:03:22 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/03/18/the-shadow-biosphere/#comment-166103 One thing we do know about life on Earth is that it took a hell of a long time (2.5 billion years or so) to get from single celled creatures to the earliest animals, which appeared at most a billion years ago. Indeed, it may have taken a billion and half years just to get as far as multi-celled organisms. Of course we don't know whether these times are typical, unusually slow, particularly fast, or a complete fluke anyway. Still, once singled celled life evolved, there was presumably no shortage of material on which evolution could work. That it took so long for animals to appear suggests that it's just not a very likely process, unless the Earth was freakishly unlucky. In another billion years or so, the Earth will become uninhabitable due to the sun warming up (as stars do as they age), so intelligent life was cutting things a bit fine. On the whole, I won't be putting any money on intelligent life being found anywhere but on Earth. One thing we do know about life on Earth is that it took a hell of a long time (2.5 billion years or so) to get from single celled creatures to the earliest animals, which appeared at most a billion years ago. Indeed, it may have taken a billion and half years just to get as far as multi-celled organisms. Of course we don’t know whether these times are typical, unusually slow, particularly fast, or a complete fluke anyway. Still, once singled celled life evolved, there was presumably no shortage of material on which evolution could work. That it took so long for animals to appear suggests that it’s just not a very likely process, unless the Earth was freakishly unlucky. In another billion years or so, the Earth will become uninhabitable due to the sun warming up (as stars do as they age), so intelligent life was cutting things a bit fine. On the whole, I won’t be putting any money on intelligent life being found anywhere but on Earth.

]]> By: Quoll http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/03/18/the-shadow-biosphere/#comment-166102 Quoll Wed, 18 Mar 2009 07:48:47 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/03/18/the-shadow-biosphere/#comment-166102 Actually, as the song goes, I think it's a matter of hoping there's intelligent life out there, because it's questionable how much there is here. :) Personally it would more astounding to think that this rather inconspicuous rock on the outer edge of a medium sized spiral galaxy could be the only place where life arose in the entire universe. In fact, that seems unbelievable to me. Life it seems to me must be universal. Though until we actually find something physical out there that doesn't fit the usual mold of life on earth, it's certainly a point of debate and curiosity. If we do find extraterrestrial life like us, it seems like good evidence of panspermia, the ongoing spreading of life through the universe. The earth leaves a fine trail of fungal spores, bacteria and tiny fragments of life as we pass through space on our loops around the sun. With the right equipment, from far away, I'm sure all these molecules of life would be visible streaming behind the earth. Not to mention all the water laying around on the surface and in the atmosphere. Actually, as the song goes, I think it’s a matter of hoping there’s intelligent life out there, because it’s questionable how much there is here. :)

Personally it would more astounding to think that this rather inconspicuous rock on the outer edge of a medium sized spiral galaxy could be the only place where life arose in the entire universe.
In fact, that seems unbelievable to me.
Life it seems to me must be universal.

Though until we actually find something physical out there that doesn’t fit the usual mold of life on earth, it’s certainly a point of debate and curiosity.
If we do find extraterrestrial life like us, it seems like good evidence of panspermia, the ongoing spreading of life through the universe. The earth leaves a fine trail of fungal spores, bacteria and tiny fragments of life as we pass through space on our loops around the sun. With the right equipment, from far away, I’m sure all these molecules of life would be visible streaming behind the earth. Not to mention all the water laying around on the surface and in the atmosphere.

]]> By: Nick http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/03/18/the-shadow-biosphere/#comment-166101 Nick Wed, 18 Mar 2009 04:17:15 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/03/18/the-shadow-biosphere/#comment-166101 "These include examining extreme environments where there’s no “conventional” life" I thoroughly recommend this IMAX film, <a href="http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C04EFD9173BF93AA3575AC0A9659C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all" rel="nofollow">Volcanos of The Deep Sea</a>, which I viewed in New York some years ago. (sorry for the lengthy quotation!) <i>First discovered in 1977, oases of life that include giant, red-plumed tubeworms live on the Pacific Ocean floor near hydrothermal vents. This is deeper than where sunlight can penetrate to provide the energy needed for photosynthesis. At the base of the food chain are bacteria that nourish themselves through a process of chemosynthesis. Drawing their energy from gases dissolved in warm or hot springs, mainly hydrogen sulfide, they are able to manufacture sugars and starches from carbon dioxide and water. These and what turned out to be hundreds of other animal species new to science were prospering in warm springs issuing from cracks in pillow-shaped lava flows. Biologists immediately wondered how these animals could make a living, apparently without depending on nutrients generated through photosynthesis. It turned out that at the base of the food chain were bacteria that nourished themselves through a process of chemosynthesis. Drawing their energy from gases dissolved in the warm springs, mainly hydrogen sulfide, they were able to manufacture sugars and starches from carbon dioxide and water. The Galápagos discovery was soon followed by the revelation of similar ecosystems at hot springs discharging from spectacular “black smoker” vents along the ridge system in the Pacific. The temperatures in these hydrothermal vents ranged as high as a scalding 750 degrees Fahrenheit (400 degrees Celsius). With these discoveries geologists realized that the ocean basins are really leaky places. The cold, heavy seawater can sink downward for miles, through cracks in the underlying volcanic rock. There it is heated as it flows near reservoirs of magma at sites beneath the ridge system, expanding and rising until it discharges from the seafloor. Along the way it dissolves metals and picks up gases from the rocks and the magma. The metals precipitate out of solution as iron-rich sulfides, coalescing into chimney-like structures and pouring into the surrounding cold seawater as a black cloud of particles (hence the name “black smoker”). For marine biologists, discovering these new ecosystems was like being a member of a Star Trek crew and finding a previously unknown basis for life on another planet. More astonishing still, certain heat-loving, chemosynthetic microorganisms living in those ecosystems turned out to have genetic characteristics that place them near the base of the tree of life. That raises the tantalizing possibility that life on Earth began at such hydrothermal vents in the early ocean, rather than in shallow waters at Earth's surface.</i> Seeing 'new' 50-500 million year old <a href="http://www.naturalhistorymag.com/0904/0904_feature.html" rel="nofollow">Paleodictyon</a> hex-mosaic burrows discovered, was more than inspiring. (and I agree with Michael S.) “These include examining extreme environments where there’s no “conventional” life”

I thoroughly recommend this IMAX film, Volcanos of The Deep Sea, which I viewed in New York some years ago.

(sorry for the lengthy quotation!)

First discovered in 1977, oases of life that include giant, red-plumed tubeworms live on the Pacific Ocean floor near hydrothermal vents. This is deeper than where sunlight can penetrate to provide the energy needed for photosynthesis. At the base of the food chain are bacteria that nourish themselves through a process of chemosynthesis. Drawing their energy from gases dissolved in warm or hot springs, mainly hydrogen sulfide, they are able to manufacture sugars and starches from carbon dioxide and water.

These and what turned out to be hundreds of other animal species new to science were prospering in warm springs issuing from cracks in pillow-shaped lava flows. Biologists immediately wondered how these animals could make a living, apparently without depending on nutrients generated through photosynthesis. It turned out that at the base of the food chain were bacteria that nourished themselves through a process of chemosynthesis. Drawing their energy from gases dissolved in the warm springs, mainly hydrogen sulfide, they were able to manufacture sugars and starches from carbon dioxide and water.

The Galápagos discovery was soon followed by the revelation of similar ecosystems at hot springs discharging from spectacular “black smoker” vents along the ridge system in the Pacific. The temperatures in these hydrothermal vents ranged as high as a scalding 750 degrees Fahrenheit (400 degrees Celsius). With these discoveries geologists realized that the ocean basins are really leaky places. The cold, heavy seawater can sink downward for miles, through cracks in the underlying volcanic rock. There it is heated as it flows near reservoirs of magma at sites beneath the ridge system, expanding and rising until it discharges from the seafloor. Along the way it dissolves metals and picks up gases from the rocks and the magma. The metals precipitate out of solution as iron-rich sulfides, coalescing into chimney-like structures and pouring into the surrounding cold seawater as a black cloud of particles (hence the name “black smoker”).

For marine biologists, discovering these new ecosystems was like being a member of a Star Trek crew and finding a previously unknown basis for life on another planet. More astonishing still, certain heat-loving, chemosynthetic microorganisms living in those ecosystems turned out to have genetic characteristics that place them near the base of the tree of life. That raises the tantalizing possibility that life on Earth began at such hydrothermal vents in the early ocean, rather than in shallow waters at Earth’s surface.

Seeing ‘new’ 50-500 million year old Paleodictyon hex-mosaic burrows discovered, was more than inspiring.

(and I agree with Michael S.)

]]> By: David Rubie http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/03/18/the-shadow-biosphere/#comment-166100 David Rubie Wed, 18 Mar 2009 03:49:25 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/03/18/the-shadow-biosphere/#comment-166100 Maybe. The fact that the Archea share many DNA transcription similarities with bacteria make this unlikely, although this discounts the idea that the Archea independently evolved this method in the same way that flight has evolved independently several times. If you can find the smoking gun that says the general thrust of organic chemistry always leads to things like polymerase and long sequences of nucleotides we might be in with a better shot at narrowing down genuinely different strands of life within carbon based forms at least. It can't be the only way of making instructions for life. If it is, there's some interesting philosophical questions to be answered. Maybe. The fact that the Archea share many DNA transcription similarities with bacteria make this unlikely, although this discounts the idea that the Archea independently evolved this method in the same way that flight has evolved independently several times.

If you can find the smoking gun that says the general thrust of organic chemistry always leads to things like polymerase and long sequences of nucleotides we might be in with a better shot at narrowing down genuinely different strands of life within carbon based forms at least. It can’t be the only way of making instructions for life. If it is, there’s some interesting philosophical questions to be answered.

]]> By: Robert Merkel http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/03/18/the-shadow-biosphere/#comment-166099 Robert Merkel Wed, 18 Mar 2009 01:49:50 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/03/18/the-shadow-biosphere/#comment-166099 David: if there was evidence that archea DNA didn't share a common ancestor with all other life, that would be a very big discovery in its own right. David: if there was evidence that archea DNA didn’t share a common ancestor with all other life, that would be a very big discovery in its own right.

]]> By: David Rubie http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/03/18/the-shadow-biosphere/#comment-166098 David Rubie Wed, 18 Mar 2009 01:07:38 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/03/18/the-shadow-biosphere/#comment-166098 The Archaea have recognisable DNA - I think the scientists are looking for something even more exotic and perhaps not even carbon based. Anything with DNA would be a little boring for them. I'm quite taken by the idea that earth has spawned several life forms in its life time, and some of them successfully left :-) The Archaea have recognisable DNA – I think the scientists are looking for something even more exotic and perhaps not even carbon based. Anything with DNA would be a little boring for them.

I’m quite taken by the idea that earth has spawned several life forms in its life time, and some of them successfully left :-)

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