Comments on: How green was my budget? http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/13/how-green-was-my-budget/ Life, Culture and Politics from BrisVegas Tue, 14 Feb 2012 08:56:52 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3 By: Huggybunny http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/13/how-green-was-my-budget/#comment-156548 Huggybunny Sun, 17 May 2009 22:53:37 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/13/how-green-was-my-budget/#comment-156548 rumrebellious @ 86 The cost of energy from the network is about 20% of that from a small stand alone system depending on size etc. A 2-4 kWh day PV system is probably the best option but you will either have to go without refrigeration or install a gas fridge. The DLF is a rort, we pay (taxpayers) for the losses in the networks. The network owners have no incentive to to mitigate these. Don't get me started on DLF's, basically they exist in some weird Friedmanite fantasy land, I am too terrified to go there. Huggy rumrebellious @ 86
The cost of energy from the network is about 20% of that from a small stand alone system depending on size etc. A 2-4 kWh day PV system is probably the best option but you will either have to go without refrigeration or install a gas fridge.
The DLF is a rort, we pay (taxpayers) for the losses in the networks. The network owners have no incentive to to mitigate these. Don’t get me started on DLF’s, basically they exist in some weird Friedmanite fantasy land, I am too terrified to go there.
Huggy

]]> By: adrian http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/13/how-green-was-my-budget/#comment-156547 adrian Sun, 17 May 2009 19:05:01 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/13/how-green-was-my-budget/#comment-156547 Not green enough to stop Labor's slump in the polls today. http://www.smh.com.au/national/labor-counts-the-cost-of-global-crisis-20090517-b7ee.html Not green enough to stop Labor’s slump in the polls today.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/labor-counts-the-cost-of-global-crisis-20090517-b7ee.html

]]> By: rumrebellious http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/13/how-green-was-my-budget/#comment-156546 rumrebellious Sun, 17 May 2009 18:51:26 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/13/how-green-was-my-budget/#comment-156546 Soz Huggy, when you say more efficient, do you mean cost or energy or both? Also with DLF's, how did Ergon get uniform reductions and if this isn't really important, why are they used to calculate price? Its not the first time I've been called feral. ;-) Soz Huggy, when you say more efficient, do you mean cost or energy or both?

Also with DLF’s, how did Ergon get uniform reductions and if this isn’t really important, why are they used to calculate price?

Its not the first time I’ve been called feral. ;-)

]]> By: HuggyBunny http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/13/how-green-was-my-budget/#comment-156545 HuggyBunny Sat, 16 May 2009 10:54:04 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/13/how-green-was-my-budget/#comment-156545 Australia leads the world in the installation of Single Wire Earth Return (SWER): Although the Kiwis think they invented it (along with heavier than air flight and animal husbandry). Ergon has a squillion km of the stuff and it works well enough. Mostly it is fed off one phase of a 33 kV line giving 19.1 kV line to ground. (The neutral star point of the 3 phase system is grounded) The consumer has a transformer that brings it to 240 V (actually 480V with a centre tap). If a solar storm hit that system it would simply explode all over the state - probably. If you can keep the consumption down to < 4 kWh it is possible to do a PV only system that works well and is cost effective. As one power engineer told me "Good enough for ferals". Huggy Australia leads the world in the installation of Single Wire Earth Return (SWER): Although the Kiwis think they invented it (along with heavier than air flight and animal husbandry). Ergon has a squillion km of the stuff and it works well enough. Mostly it is fed off one phase of a 33 kV line giving 19.1 kV line to ground. (The neutral star point of the 3 phase system is grounded) The consumer has a transformer that brings it to 240 V (actually 480V with a centre tap).
If a solar storm hit that system it would simply explode all over the state – probably.
If you can keep the consumption down to < 4 kWh it is possible to do a PV only system that works well and is cost effective. As one power engineer told me “Good enough for ferals”.
Huggy

]]> By: HuggyBunny http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/13/how-green-was-my-budget/#comment-156544 HuggyBunny Sat, 16 May 2009 06:04:18 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/13/how-green-was-my-budget/#comment-156544 If you want to know how bad the situation is in North Queensland have a look at the Distribution Loss Factors for Ergon http://www.aer.gov.au/content/item.phtml?itemId=719520&nodeId=63b57b09c1cc96a5146aa9623c867d81&fn=Ergon%20Energy%20200809%20DLFs.pdf They are probably among the worst in Australia. (Ergon is the utility that serves this area). However even when you factor these in, the network is more efficient than the average isolated system. Huggy If you want to know how bad the situation is in North Queensland have a look at the Distribution Loss Factors for Ergon http://www.aer.gov.au/content/item.phtml?itemId=719520&nodeId=63b57b09c1cc96a5146aa9623c867d81&fn=Ergon%20Energy%20200809%20DLFs.pdf
They are probably among the worst in Australia. (Ergon is the utility that serves this area).
However even when you factor these in, the network is more efficient than the average isolated system.
Huggy

]]> By: rumrebellious http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/13/how-green-was-my-budget/#comment-156543 rumrebellious Sat, 16 May 2009 05:58:09 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/13/how-green-was-my-budget/#comment-156543 Cheers Huggy... Got some reading to do obviously. Cheers Huggy… Got some reading to do obviously.

]]> By: Brian http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/13/how-green-was-my-budget/#comment-156542 Brian Sat, 16 May 2009 04:45:52 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/13/how-green-was-my-budget/#comment-156542 The problem is, Helen, that in FNQ and the North generally, there are extnded periods during the wet season when the sun doesn't shine. But I understand that along the most of the east coast 150km inland is considered prime solar territory. And id the <a href="http://www.ga.gov.au/oceans/ea_Surat.jsp" rel="nofollow">Surat Basin</a> certainly and the <a href="http://www.ga.gov.au/oceans/ea_Browse.jsp" rel="nofollow">Bowen Basin</a> probably there is a fair bit of gas for backup. Not sure about geothermal, but where Geodynamics is, if you connected to Sydney and Brisbane you would go through prime solar territory. Distributed systems could come in handy if <a href="http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/03/26/something-else-to-worry-about/" rel="nofollow">a solar storm fried the grid!</a> You'd need distributed storage facilities, though. The problem is, Helen, that in FNQ and the North generally, there are extnded periods during the wet season when the sun doesn’t shine. But I understand that along the most of the east coast 150km inland is considered prime solar territory. And id the Surat Basin certainly and the Bowen Basin probably there is a fair bit of gas for backup. Not sure about geothermal, but where Geodynamics is, if you connected to Sydney and Brisbane you would go through prime solar territory.

Distributed systems could come in handy if a solar storm fried the grid! You’d need distributed storage facilities, though.

]]> By: rumrebellious http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/13/how-green-was-my-budget/#comment-156541 rumrebellious Sat, 16 May 2009 04:27:36 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/13/how-green-was-my-budget/#comment-156541 Well it ain't my field Helen, but that's what I thought. A perfect place to throw buckets of money at to experiment with different technologies - and if one is viable, start creeping towards the coast taking rural communities away from transmissions lines off-line altogether. Admit though, I failed high-school physics, have no idea how electricity decides where it wants to go on the grid, and this is all based on an assumption removing serveral thousand kms of lineage in western qld would provide additional energy efficiency gains from reducing transmissions losses (as well as reducing overall useage). As I said, comments from a lay person. But real remote communities already use generators, PV cells etc, and I have driven through parts of rural qld, and once houses start getting several kms apart and at least a km back from the road, one does wonder at what densities does locally independent systems become cost-effective. It might be the transmissions losses are negligible compared to the actual energy used in running a computer beyond the back of Bourke and the reason they use generators in places like that already are simply infrastructure costs. Either way, if the price of technologies is going to change, it never hurts to start small before you go big if our goal is reducing emissions now. And I don't understand why so much discussion has focused on that. Well it ain’t my field Helen, but that’s what I thought. A perfect place to throw buckets of money at to experiment with different technologies – and if one is viable, start creeping towards the coast taking rural communities away from transmissions lines off-line altogether.

Admit though, I failed high-school physics, have no idea how electricity decides where it wants to go on the grid, and this is all based on an assumption removing serveral thousand kms of lineage in western qld would provide additional energy efficiency gains from reducing transmissions losses (as well as reducing overall useage).

As I said, comments from a lay person. But real remote communities already use generators, PV cells etc, and I have driven through parts of rural qld, and once houses start getting several kms apart and at least a km back from the road, one does wonder at what densities does locally independent systems become cost-effective. It might be the transmissions losses are negligible compared to the actual energy used in running a computer beyond the back of Bourke and the reason they use generators in places like that already are simply infrastructure costs. Either way, if the price of technologies is going to change, it never hurts to start small before you go big if our goal is reducing emissions now. And I don’t understand why so much discussion has focused on that.

]]> By: HuggyBunny http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/13/how-green-was-my-budget/#comment-156540 HuggyBunny Sat, 16 May 2009 01:23:21 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/13/how-green-was-my-budget/#comment-156540 "John D: cheap solar PV is a bit like fusion - it’s been a decade away for a couple of decades now". Rather like nuclear fission for the last 70 years actually. Huggy “John D: cheap solar PV is a bit like fusion – it’s been a decade away for a couple of decades now”.
Rather like nuclear fission for the last 70 years actually.
Huggy

]]> By: HuggyBunny http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/13/how-green-was-my-budget/#comment-156539 HuggyBunny Sat, 16 May 2009 01:06:19 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/13/how-green-was-my-budget/#comment-156539 rumrebellious @77 Transmission losses can reach over 10% also someone has to supply the VARS to provide for voltage drop, these are not technically "real". Not sure how NEMMCO is handling these at the present. Huggy rumrebellious @77
Transmission losses can reach over 10% also someone has to supply the VARS to provide for voltage drop, these are not technically “real”. Not sure how NEMMCO is handling these at the present.
Huggy

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