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	<title>Comments on: GST votes, a decade on</title>
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	<description>Life, Culture and Politics from BrisVegas</description>
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		<title>By: Mercurius</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/19/gst-votes-a-decade-on/#comment-157151</link>
		<dc:creator>Mercurius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 07:04:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/19/gst-votes-a-decade-on/#comment-157151</guid>
		<description>Hi Chinda - I hear ya. I would &lt;em&gt;love&lt;/em&gt; to pay $1 million in income tax! :D</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Chinda &#8211; I hear ya. I would <em>love</em> to pay $1 million in income tax! <img src='http://larvatusprodeo.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: chinda63</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/19/gst-votes-a-decade-on/#comment-157150</link>
		<dc:creator>chinda63</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 05:05:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/19/gst-votes-a-decade-on/#comment-157150</guid>
		<description>Mercurius - I do think income tax should be higher.  I am  more than happy for my taxes to pay for infrastructure and essential services; as far as I am concerned, that is what income tax is for.  It just makes me want to scream when I get a contractor in to build fences and discover that nearly $500 of what is already a huge bill has nothing whatsoever to do with the work that he has done.  I have paid for the materials he purchased on my behalf and I have paid for his labour.  As far as I am concerned, that should be the end of the story.

If I am going to give an extra $500 to the government, then I&#039;d rather it comes out at $10 a week, every week, rather than as a lump sum that I can&#039;t afford, if you get my drift.  But that&#039;s me thinking as a single parent pensioner; I don&#039;t have a huge disposable income like many who don&#039;t see what the big deal is with the GST.  It&#039;s no wonder that there are so many people out there who do &quot;cash&quot; work - if I had organised a fencing contractor on those terms (or the electrician and plumber) those jobs would have cost me at least $1,000 less and I would have money to spend on other renovation jobs that are currently on hold.

And yes, I guess that is a whine  ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mercurius &#8211; I do think income tax should be higher.  I am  more than happy for my taxes to pay for infrastructure and essential services; as far as I am concerned, that is what income tax is for.  It just makes me want to scream when I get a contractor in to build fences and discover that nearly $500 of what is already a huge bill has nothing whatsoever to do with the work that he has done.  I have paid for the materials he purchased on my behalf and I have paid for his labour.  As far as I am concerned, that should be the end of the story.</p>
<p>If I am going to give an extra $500 to the government, then I&#8217;d rather it comes out at $10 a week, every week, rather than as a lump sum that I can&#8217;t afford, if you get my drift.  But that&#8217;s me thinking as a single parent pensioner; I don&#8217;t have a huge disposable income like many who don&#8217;t see what the big deal is with the GST.  It&#8217;s no wonder that there are so many people out there who do &#8220;cash&#8221; work &#8211; if I had organised a fencing contractor on those terms (or the electrician and plumber) those jobs would have cost me at least $1,000 less and I would have money to spend on other renovation jobs that are currently on hold.</p>
<p>And yes, I guess that is a whine  <img src='http://larvatusprodeo.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Mercurius</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/19/gst-votes-a-decade-on/#comment-157149</link>
		<dc:creator>Mercurius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 01:51:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/19/gst-votes-a-decade-on/#comment-157149</guid>
		<description>Hannah&#039;s dad, please read what I wrote: no &lt;em&gt;net&lt;/em&gt; income tax. Yes, you pay some taxes, but have you looked at the other side of ledger? As in if you are a &lt;em&gt;family&lt;/em&gt; earning under $40K, what income tax you pay comes back to you in the form of either (a) low-income tax rebate or (b) family tax benefit. There is no &lt;em&gt;net&lt;/em&gt; income tax bill for families with children in that situation. That&#039;s not my supposing, that&#039;s Treasury analysis and Budget papers.

And I never said you don&#039;t pay GST -- I said you can effect to pay negligible GST by purchasing fresh foods and second-hand goods, as I have habitually done in the years when my income has been low.

Unless you&#039;re prepared to offer more specific information than just blanket assertions, there&#039;s not much I can address directly. I will say for my own situation my income has fluctuated wildly and in recent years I have on several occasions been not just below $40K, but below $20K as well. In those years, I found my income tax bill was balanced by tax rebates I received - and I don&#039;t even get family tax benefits or baby bonuses or any such thing. I even got extra rebates for some very large and unwelcome medical out-of-pockets I had to pay. So the income tax situation for low income earners is pretty much balanced &lt;em&gt;in net terms&lt;/em&gt;, from what I can see. And how much GST you pay is a function of what you buy and how you buy it. In my lean years, I&#039;ve done fine on fresh food, second-hand goods, and libraries (and there&#039;s no GST on the largest item of household expenditure: rent &amp; mortgages).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hannah&#8217;s dad, please read what I wrote: no <em>net</em> income tax. Yes, you pay some taxes, but have you looked at the other side of ledger? As in if you are a <em>family</em> earning under $40K, what income tax you pay comes back to you in the form of either (a) low-income tax rebate or (b) family tax benefit. There is no <em>net</em> income tax bill for families with children in that situation. That&#8217;s not my supposing, that&#8217;s Treasury analysis and Budget papers.</p>
<p>And I never said you don&#8217;t pay GST &#8212; I said you can effect to pay negligible GST by purchasing fresh foods and second-hand goods, as I have habitually done in the years when my income has been low.</p>
<p>Unless you&#8217;re prepared to offer more specific information than just blanket assertions, there&#8217;s not much I can address directly. I will say for my own situation my income has fluctuated wildly and in recent years I have on several occasions been not just below $40K, but below $20K as well. In those years, I found my income tax bill was balanced by tax rebates I received &#8211; and I don&#8217;t even get family tax benefits or baby bonuses or any such thing. I even got extra rebates for some very large and unwelcome medical out-of-pockets I had to pay. So the income tax situation for low income earners is pretty much balanced <em>in net terms</em>, from what I can see. And how much GST you pay is a function of what you buy and how you buy it. In my lean years, I&#8217;ve done fine on fresh food, second-hand goods, and libraries (and there&#8217;s no GST on the largest item of household expenditure: rent &amp; mortgages).</p>
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		<title>By: The Intellectual Bogan</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/19/gst-votes-a-decade-on/#comment-157148</link>
		<dc:creator>The Intellectual Bogan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 01:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/19/gst-votes-a-decade-on/#comment-157148</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Many service providers will tell you that the more affluent in our society will suggest a 10 per cent reduction in a quote for payment by cash.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;em&gt;Everyone I know&lt;/em&gt; habitually utters the magic question &quot;Discount for cash?&quot; when making any major purchase or payment.  It has nothing to do with affluence in my experience.

Seriously though, a couple of random observations.

I object strongly to GST on books.  Even Thatcher at her loopiest didn&#039;t try that one in her attempts to keep the lower orders as uninformed as possible.

At the time the GST came in, i was looking to buy a TV and a fridge.  My completely unscientific observations suggested that, on July 1st 2000, fridges rose in price whilst TVs became cheaper.  As refrigeration is, whilst not an absolute necessity, extremely useful in the Australian climate, whilst a TV is not, i was a bit dubious about the effects of the GST.

Overall, though, it hasn&#039;t turned out as bad as I and many others feared.  I still look at the number at the bottom of my weekly shopping bill and feel a little smug about what a small percentage of my overall expenditure it actually is.

Besides, like DeeCee, I find that my major GST eligible purchases are best made offshore due to the venality of Australian importers, distributors and retailers of anything remotely specialist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Many service providers will tell you that the more affluent in our society will suggest a 10 per cent reduction in a quote for payment by cash.</p></blockquote>
<p><em>Everyone I know</em> habitually utters the magic question &#8220;Discount for cash?&#8221; when making any major purchase or payment.  It has nothing to do with affluence in my experience.</p>
<p>Seriously though, a couple of random observations.</p>
<p>I object strongly to GST on books.  Even Thatcher at her loopiest didn&#8217;t try that one in her attempts to keep the lower orders as uninformed as possible.</p>
<p>At the time the GST came in, i was looking to buy a TV and a fridge.  My completely unscientific observations suggested that, on July 1st 2000, fridges rose in price whilst TVs became cheaper.  As refrigeration is, whilst not an absolute necessity, extremely useful in the Australian climate, whilst a TV is not, i was a bit dubious about the effects of the GST.</p>
<p>Overall, though, it hasn&#8217;t turned out as bad as I and many others feared.  I still look at the number at the bottom of my weekly shopping bill and feel a little smug about what a small percentage of my overall expenditure it actually is.</p>
<p>Besides, like DeeCee, I find that my major GST eligible purchases are best made offshore due to the venality of Australian importers, distributors and retailers of anything remotely specialist.</p>
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		<title>By: wilful</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/19/gst-votes-a-decade-on/#comment-157147</link>
		<dc:creator>wilful</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 23:22:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/19/gst-votes-a-decade-on/#comment-157147</guid>
		<description>Pretty much 100% with Mercurius at #27 on this one. By report, the social inequity in the past decade has remained pretty stable, even narrowed a bit between the bottom and middle (widened a lot between middle and top), so any argument about the GST needs to provide evidence that it&#039;s such a bad thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pretty much 100% with Mercurius at #27 on this one. By report, the social inequity in the past decade has remained pretty stable, even narrowed a bit between the bottom and middle (widened a lot between middle and top), so any argument about the GST needs to provide evidence that it&#8217;s such a bad thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Bingo Bango Boingo</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/19/gst-votes-a-decade-on/#comment-157146</link>
		<dc:creator>Bingo Bango Boingo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 17:59:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/19/gst-votes-a-decade-on/#comment-157146</guid>
		<description>This retrospective also highlights the stupidity of the Rudd Government in setting the terms of reference for the Henry Tax Review.  The Review absolutely should consider whether the balance between the GST and other taxes is right, whether the whole system can be re-cast and simplified.  But it won&#039;t, at least not thoroughly, because of the idiotic political baggage that the ALP carries on consumption tax issues.  I have high hopes for the Review (payroll tax abolition, anyone?), but the most obvious way in which to massively improve the system (i.e. replacing a variety of regressive and/or economically/morally indefensible taxes with an increased GST tax + progressive adjustments to the income tax regime) is not available.  The one consolation is that if Costello were still around there would be no review at all, and certainly no prospect of any meaningful change on the tax front.

BBB</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This retrospective also highlights the stupidity of the Rudd Government in setting the terms of reference for the Henry Tax Review.  The Review absolutely should consider whether the balance between the GST and other taxes is right, whether the whole system can be re-cast and simplified.  But it won&#8217;t, at least not thoroughly, because of the idiotic political baggage that the ALP carries on consumption tax issues.  I have high hopes for the Review (payroll tax abolition, anyone?), but the most obvious way in which to massively improve the system (i.e. replacing a variety of regressive and/or economically/morally indefensible taxes with an increased GST tax + progressive adjustments to the income tax regime) is not available.  The one consolation is that if Costello were still around there would be no review at all, and certainly no prospect of any meaningful change on the tax front.</p>
<p>BBB</p>
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		<title>By: Razor</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/19/gst-votes-a-decade-on/#comment-157145</link>
		<dc:creator>Razor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 13:23:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/19/gst-votes-a-decade-on/#comment-157145</guid>
		<description>The worst thing about the GST is all the stupid exemptions which meant the states kept all the stupid multitude of taxes and charges that should have been abolished.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The worst thing about the GST is all the stupid exemptions which meant the states kept all the stupid multitude of taxes and charges that should have been abolished.</p>
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		<title>By: hannah's dad</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/19/gst-votes-a-decade-on/#comment-157144</link>
		<dc:creator>hannah's dad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 10:55:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/19/gst-votes-a-decade-on/#comment-157144</guid>
		<description>&quot;Remember families, pensioners, and persons with disabilities earning up to as much as $40K in Australia pay no net income tax at all due to rebates and tax concessions&#039;

I earn less than $40,000 pa and pay income tax and GST.
I obviously don&#039;t fit into any of your exempt categories.
I wonder how many others don&#039;t?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Remember families, pensioners, and persons with disabilities earning up to as much as $40K in Australia pay no net income tax at all due to rebates and tax concessions&#8217;</p>
<p>I earn less than $40,000 pa and pay income tax and GST.<br />
I obviously don&#8217;t fit into any of your exempt categories.<br />
I wonder how many others don&#8217;t?</p>
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		<title>By: Mercurius</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/19/gst-votes-a-decade-on/#comment-157143</link>
		<dc:creator>Mercurius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 10:47:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/19/gst-votes-a-decade-on/#comment-157143</guid>
		<description>OK, good, so we&#039;ve recycled all the nostrums from ten years ago - &quot;it&#039;s a regressive tax&quot;. Now, ten years on, there should be plenty of evidence for that...right?

Where is the evidence to show that the GST &lt;em&gt;as implemented in Australia&lt;/em&gt; unfairly or disproportionately hit low-income earners? If anyone can produce it, this would be a good place to do so. I&#039;m sure there would be a receptive audience.

Remember families, pensioners, and persons with disabilities earning up to as much as $40K in Australia pay no net &lt;em&gt;income&lt;/em&gt; tax at all due to rebates and tax concessions. And if they buy fresh food and second-hand goods as their incomes allow, use public transport (it attract GST I know, but much less cost than private travel), schools and hospitals, then those families&#039; GST bill will be negligible. Pretty much the loo paper and school shoes. Seriously, where&#039;s the regressive tax hit? I don&#039;t see it.

I can think of three taxes that are &lt;em&gt;far&lt;/em&gt; more regressive in fact that the GST might be in theory. They are tobacco excise, alcohol excise, and petrol excise. Do you think you could save some of your outrage for those? A pack of Winnie Blues attracts about the same tax as a Monte Cristo. And a bottle of Bundy Rum attracts about the same tax as a bottle of Louis XIII cognac. And a clerk who battles up the M5 every day from Minto pays a lot more in petrol excise than a barrister who cruises 3 miles into the city from Vaucluse. Seriously, these excises impact low income earners in a very disproportionate fashion, so spare me the selective outrage about the GST -- at least with GST you get a receipt that itemises exactly how much you&#039;re paying (try getting that from the servo, bottlo or smoke shop), and it&#039;s the same proportion for everybody, the essentials of life don&#039;t attract GST (thanks Democrats!), and there are plenty of other ways to reduce the amount of GST you pay through careful purchasing.

Lynda @ 17. Ok, I get that you don&#039;t like paying for tax on services, but you &lt;em&gt;do&lt;/em&gt; like schools and roads and hospitals don&#039;t you? Seriously, with goods shrinking as a proportion of the economy, and services growing, and we&#039;re already collecting 40-50% (inc. Medicare levy + surcharge) of the marginal income of everybody earning over about $80K, where else can you find the money? The narrower the tax base, the higher the rate has to be -- if you make it super-narrow, you&#039;re going to wipe out your tax base altogether. Seriously, you can gripe about paying tax on services, but unless you have a better suggestion (ie. one that won&#039;t destroy the economic base it&#039;s attempting to tax), then I&#039;m afraid you&#039;re just whingeing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, good, so we&#8217;ve recycled all the nostrums from ten years ago &#8211; &#8220;it&#8217;s a regressive tax&#8221;. Now, ten years on, there should be plenty of evidence for that&#8230;right?</p>
<p>Where is the evidence to show that the GST <em>as implemented in Australia</em> unfairly or disproportionately hit low-income earners? If anyone can produce it, this would be a good place to do so. I&#8217;m sure there would be a receptive audience.</p>
<p>Remember families, pensioners, and persons with disabilities earning up to as much as $40K in Australia pay no net <em>income</em> tax at all due to rebates and tax concessions. And if they buy fresh food and second-hand goods as their incomes allow, use public transport (it attract GST I know, but much less cost than private travel), schools and hospitals, then those families&#8217; GST bill will be negligible. Pretty much the loo paper and school shoes. Seriously, where&#8217;s the regressive tax hit? I don&#8217;t see it.</p>
<p>I can think of three taxes that are <em>far</em> more regressive in fact that the GST might be in theory. They are tobacco excise, alcohol excise, and petrol excise. Do you think you could save some of your outrage for those? A pack of Winnie Blues attracts about the same tax as a Monte Cristo. And a bottle of Bundy Rum attracts about the same tax as a bottle of Louis XIII cognac. And a clerk who battles up the M5 every day from Minto pays a lot more in petrol excise than a barrister who cruises 3 miles into the city from Vaucluse. Seriously, these excises impact low income earners in a very disproportionate fashion, so spare me the selective outrage about the GST &#8212; at least with GST you get a receipt that itemises exactly how much you&#8217;re paying (try getting that from the servo, bottlo or smoke shop), and it&#8217;s the same proportion for everybody, the essentials of life don&#8217;t attract GST (thanks Democrats!), and there are plenty of other ways to reduce the amount of GST you pay through careful purchasing.</p>
<p>Lynda @ 17. Ok, I get that you don&#8217;t like paying for tax on services, but you <em>do</em> like schools and roads and hospitals don&#8217;t you? Seriously, with goods shrinking as a proportion of the economy, and services growing, and we&#8217;re already collecting 40-50% (inc. Medicare levy + surcharge) of the marginal income of everybody earning over about $80K, where else can you find the money? The narrower the tax base, the higher the rate has to be &#8212; if you make it super-narrow, you&#8217;re going to wipe out your tax base altogether. Seriously, you can gripe about paying tax on services, but unless you have a better suggestion (ie. one that won&#8217;t destroy the economic base it&#8217;s attempting to tax), then I&#8217;m afraid you&#8217;re just whingeing.</p>
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		<title>By: Graeme</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/19/gst-votes-a-decade-on/#comment-157142</link>
		<dc:creator>Graeme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 10:44:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/05/19/gst-votes-a-decade-on/#comment-157142</guid>
		<description>an overlooked unfortunate effect of the GST is to increase the disposable society.
10% on a repairer&#039;s quote, combined with reduced cost of consumer goods means it&#039;s uneconomic to repair most whitegoods let alone electronics well within their lifetimes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>an overlooked unfortunate effect of the GST is to increase the disposable society.<br />
10% on a repairer&#8217;s quote, combined with reduced cost of consumer goods means it&#8217;s uneconomic to repair most whitegoods let alone electronics well within their lifetimes.</p>
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