From news.com.au:
PRIME Minister Kevin Rudd has promised two nuns that he will press the Pope on the canonisation of Mary MacKillop.
The Archdiocese of Sydney said Mr Rudd would raise the issue in a meeting with Pope Benedict XVI in Rome on July 9.
Much and all as it personally grates, Emperor Palpatine Pope Benedict is an important figure with very considerable earthly influence that accompanies his importance to the world’s billion-odd Catholics. So I don’t have any problem with Kevin Rudd dropping by.
But (and if you’ll excuse my atheist cynicism for the moment) the topic at hand is the accreditation of an Australian nun with supernatural healing powers from beyond the grave. It is of little earthly consequence for anyone except memorabilia makers. Surely this is squarely within the domain of the spiritual, which governments should leave for the faithful. In what way is it Rudd’s business? As a private citizen, Rudd is not a Catholic. As a Prime Minister, he is representing a secular government of a country where there are literally hundreds of religious faiths, and a large fraction of citizens with no religious belief at all.
I suppose it’s possible that Rudd was ambushed into making an anodyne comment by two nice old nuns, whom he didn’t want to offend, which was then seized upon by the Archdiocese’s press office. But he’s a professional politician, who could have politely pointed out that it’s not within his purview. And, for once, it’d be nice if he did.
Thing is, Robert, you need to have lots of small talk organised when you plan to have a chat with old red sox. And above all, don’t mention the war…..
It would appear that everything is his business. Yesterday he sanctimoniously opined on the serious illness of Jim Stynes.
I can’t recall a previous PM being as intrusive and downright busybodyish.
But wait! Mary Mackillop was a teacher in Portland for five minutes and Portland is in DESPAIR! It’s all about the economy, mate!
There’s a secondary college named after her in Leongatha, but that still doesn’t excuse Mr Rudd.
As I understaqnd it the beautification of Mary McKillop hinges on the proof of a second miracle concerning one of the faithful’s complete recovery from cancer. As Ambigulous notes, our Kev has opined on Jim Stynes’ illness and there can’t be much doubt his Holiness will get an earful from the ‘gobetween’. I hope it is good news for all believers.
Beautification will be difficult at this point, pablo. Unless, of course, it is of the purely methaphorical kind, viz. putting lipstick on a pig, which seems apt in this case.
BBB
Please have a safe trip.
The Daily Show said something similar about Obama’s revelation to Pakistani media that he reads Urdu poetry. “That’s great. Now fix the f***ing economy!”
And don’t LP bloggers have anything more worthwhile to comment on than the shortcomings of our still popular and hardworking PM? The sanctification of Mary McKillop isn’t one of my favorite causes either, but cut him some slack. Be glad he’s not whooping it up at Scores and has stopped abusing air hosties. And not one quaint Aussie-ism has passed his lips this week!
So what if he works his bum off and looks around for more to do and gives answers to questions from the media we can read about and mumble and grumble over our cornflakes. Imagine….Kevin Rudd uses a hair dryer! Wow, there should be a Senate enquiry into that! And now he’s going to Rome! Just to see the Pope? About Mary McKillop? Come on, you know how that story was drummed up!
If you’re of the left persuasion be glad that people like him and trust him and that his detractors haven’t been able to lay a glove on him. Don’t join them and complain because he’s the upside-down-under Scarlet Pimpernel…..”We see him here, we see him there, we see him every bloody where!”
I’m so glad it’s K. Rudd out there and not J. Howard who was banal beyond words, and evil with it. Hey guys, we’ve got a half decent government. Who’s complaining?
Patricia: yes, it’s not the most serious issue going on – aside from the CPRS, there’s the bushfire royal commission in Victoria (and Robert Manne’s pile-on to the CFA in the latest Monthly), the defence capability plan, not to mention the health and hospitals reform commission report coming out soon…
The serious point here to be made is not that Kevin Rudd doesn’t have time to spend thirty seconds discussing Mary MacKillop with Benedict. Clearly, it’s not a major burden. The point is that it is an internal issue for Catholics and their leaders, and ventures into territory that’s a long way from rationality and very much in the land of their specific faith. Not an area our PM should be getting involved in.
As somebody who is not a Catholic, the process for recognizing saints doesn’t stand up to any logical scrutiny. “Miraculous” cures happen on a fairly regular basis. If enough people with supposedly terminal illnesses pray to God, Mary Mackillop, or indeed the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the odds are a few of them will recover. So, if those who want Mary Mackillop to be canonized are patient enough and convince enough dying people to ask for her help, eventually another “miracle” will occur. It’s no more evidence of Mary Mackillop’s sainthood than the fact that eventually somebody won the Oz Lotto jackpot.
None of this is supposed to suggest that the Catholic faithful don’t have the right to believe what they want to believe Bully for them. But I do wish my Prime Minister didn’t involve himself in this kind of hocus-pocus.
Gawd, Robert, you are making a big deal about nothing from a Newscorp report of all places. Rudd is a politician and for some catholics this is the equivalent of getting a berth in an international sporting final. And if he didn’t give the claim the nod, the newspapers would run with “Rudd Snubs Nuns”. This is the the path of sensible least resistance.
It’s not just NewsCorp, joe.
The path of sensible least resistance was something along the lines of “while the matter of the canonization of Mary Mackillop is a matter for the Catholic church, I will pass on the fervent hopes of Australian Catholics for a prompt canonization to His Holiness.”
My follow-up point is that, just like his predecessor, Kevin Rudd can’t seem to resist making comment on a lot of things that aren’t in his remit. It would be better for everyone if he refrained from it.
But surely he comments on things because journos shove mics under his nose and ask him to? And if that’s so, wouldn’t it look sinister if (re nuns or Jim Stynes) he replied repressively ‘No comment’? Sorry, Robert, can’t really see what the problem is here, unless it’s just general irritation at the ongoing church/state blurring in high places, in which case I am with you. The mention of ’separation of powers’ on the biker thread made me think that in that respect the church is far more of a worry than the coppers, at least in this country in this decade.
“But I do wish my Prime Minister didn’t involve himself in this kind of hocus-pocus.”
And so you are upset about hocus pocus. It is not his remit is it?? Helloo???Distasteful as it is to you, he is a Christian too, now anglican of catholic origin. There is not much difference in the hocus pocus belief systems of the two surprisingly. Apart from a leadership question and the transubstantiation thing. And some of that depends on high or low church anyway. So what would you expect that they speak of? Apart from being “Your Prime Minister” (Interesting proprietal claim – what is he exactly- your personal Luke Skywalker figure gone wrong?), he is also a Christian who is entitled to represent his Christian constituency. For 30 seconds no less. And this offends thou deeply. The Lord forfend Robert. Novenas all round. Immediately.
Well I have heard Catholics get all het up cause their saints will not do what they want them to, either. Still, life goes on. Im sure Luke will get back to the light sabre soon.
Robert, from your link, the other newspaper organisation has run the following line….
“Mr Rudd has also put aside time to promote Australia’s bid to host the soccer World Cup, and talk to the Pope about the canonisation of Mary Mackillop.”
Pretty much backs up what I was saying. And your written ideal of least resistance is almost the path Rudd has gone down anyway. It is just that it is not enough to satisfy you comletely.
The link also lists the work of Christian Kerr under the title “Would this man to buy a used car?”. More drivel from a fully initiated Newscorp sycophant, under a stuffed up headline, where he cannot resist a crack at Rudd over this trivial matter, either.
as well.
to be sure
Brethren, I offer this footnote from Alice Hogge’s God’s Secret Agents: Queen Elizabeth’s Forbidden Priests and the Hatching of the Gunpowder Plot
“Curiously, John F. Kennedy was called before a meeting of Protestant ministers to reassure them he would not become a Vatican puppet if elected to the presidency. His response appears eminently Elizabethan in its essential ambiguity and in its recognition of a divided loyalty: ‘If my Church attempted to influence me in a way which was improper or which affected adversely my responsibilities as a public servant, then I would reply to them that this was an improper action on their part and that it was one to which I could not subscribe’ ”
p. 392
[What a shame JFK fell to bullets during his first term]
Is there a saint for putting together Ikea furniture? Saint Pax Malm, or Klipster? of the Fjords?? Or Saint Frack of the Mirror??? Or is it indeed true, as I have been told, that Ikea is swedish for “Satan”??????? Anyone??
Kevin is doing exactly what old Bejelkie-Petersen used to do. Hes feeding the chooks.
If he keeps a statement a day, 4 photo ops a week, schedule then the media (big generalization) will report this as “news”. What isnt said is just how tight a leash he tends to keep the media on.
One example. A few weeks back Rudd flew into Geraldton to announce some funding for the Okagee port project (most had already been in the pipeline since Howard. the project is held up by various permits more so than lack of funds)
The local paper heard a rumor Mr Rudd was to visit, they phoned Canberra to get confirmation so they could cover the visit.
They never got an answer, Rudd slipped in and out without the town being aware of it until after hed left. A photo taken (by his selected media) shows him waving to someone on arrival, but who? No-one outside a few sworn to secrecy even knew he was in town.
So no chance of a non-Canberra journo asking an unscripted question, no anti-port protesters (and there probably would have been a few), or other Geraldton residents involved.
Thats the art of spin, news, but only from Rudds chosen carriers. Howard would have been roundly (and rightly) condemned for this sort of media manipulation. It is a worrying corruption of the media.
As long as he keeps feeding his chosen few a story a day, and limiting access to others, where will the stories come from?
“As long as he keeps feeding his chosen few a story a day, and limiting access to others, where will the stories come from?”
Mole, fear not, Newscorp and fellow travellers are quite capable of making them up.
Have you been out of town?
joe2
What I said is in no way meant to defend journos or organisations that get it wrong.
Kevin is doing exactly what Blair did, a story or 2 a day, and the media are happy with him. Journos are no different from many other people, if their job is done for them (via media release), the boss is happy, why upset the apple cart?
The coverage on the latest report on Aboriginal diadvantage has, so far, allowed him to get away with motherhood statements and no action. According to the Australian no new housing has been built, and only limited refurbishment of some existing stock undertaken.
Kevin doesnt even have the (near traditional, regaurdless of whos in power) excuse of hostile state governments to fall back on.
As distasteful as it may be to some more idialogical people, pick a big multinational, assign a set of minimum standards, and get the bloody things built.
As it stands after 2 days of huffing in the Australian, this issue will again dissapear till next year, lost in a flurry of hard hat appearances, and media stunts.
I just wrote a post about this on my own blog. I come from a different perspective, being a Christian. But it is annoying that he said he would talk to the Pope about it, because there is nothing he could say that could change the process in anyway. The Pope isn’t waiting for someone to tell him what to do. He’s waiting for the miracle to be investigated and confirmed. And Kevin Rudd, as an Australian Prime Minister (who is Anglican) should really stay out of the process.
Samaritan
I would agree with Robert, the role of a government isn’t to promote candidacies for sainthood. I heard something about this on the radio the other day and the impression i got was that it was now largely a matter for some internal catholic process that wouldn’t be all that influenced by Kevin putting a word in to the pope. Although if he really wanted to get involved…
Perhaps Rudd could enlist the skills of the NSW government spin machine. They manage to ‘justify’ car racing at olympic park, world youth day, and more car racing around Byron. I’m sure
the NSW governmentan independent research firm could be found to present a report to the gvernment, immediately marked ‘cabinet-in-confidence,’ that would show a benefit of x billion dollars to the tourism and hospitality industries from Australia getting our own saint.Then we could renovate the Mary MacKillop church in North Sydney to provide much needed economic stimulus in this time of global economic recession. Because Mr Speaker this government is committed to taking clear and decisive action to provide fiscal stimulus to compensate for the decline in private sector investment in the economy.
And Mr Speaker could i also just point out that the Honourable Member for North Sydney voted against these measures when they were voted on in this place, didn’t you Joe. And yet Mr Speaker, when i and the Minister for Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government were at the church to help launch this investment in our nation’s future who would be there to help out Mr Speaker. Who was it, yes it was good old Joe.
In the end Mr Speaker the question that those opposite have to answer is this, do they support jobs for Australians or does the Member for North Sydney believe in cultivating the support of the extremist elements in the Liberal and National parties.
This is then followed by a discussion on Insiders about Kevin Rudd wanting to be the next pope instead of discussion on any important issues. I think there’s plenty in it for Rudd.
Casey @ 18. St. Joseph seems the closest fit. He’s the patron saint of carpenters.
Re Kev, benny Whatewver and Mother Mary McKillop. He won’t lose many Protestant votes doing this, if any, except those still living in the 1600s. He’ll get more Catholic votes. And most sensible atheists wouldn’t (or shouldn’t) vote for the Libs in a fit. And anyway, if she does pull off another miracle and ends up a saint, it’ll be good for business. Think of the party we’ll be able to have. Almost as much a money spinner as the World Day for Catching the Flu from Snotty-Nosed Religious Kids was.
Not that I really believe in miracles. i watched my old man drag himself halfway round the world to Lourdes years go. It didn’t cure him, but it didn’t make him any sicker, Bless him.
And Casey, there is of course….. The Apostle Saint Jude Thaddeus who is “The Miraculous Saint,” the Catholic Patron Saint of “lost causes” and “cases despaired of.”
She might just be able to help you find the allen key.
joe2 @ 25,
She? I always thought Jude was a bloke. Maybe I misidentified the statue in the cathedral or wherever. These bearded 1st century and medieval blokes all looked the same to me. And, anyway, what I want to know is why nobody made Robin Hood a saint.
The car race at Homebush is a massive waste of tax money, by the way, and speaking as a petrolhead.
If government money is to be spent on motor racing, there is far more bang for the buck in spending it on permanent circuits that can be used for amateur-level motorsport and driver training the other 51 weeks a year.
There’s not even an “it drags in the tourists” justification for the V8’s,. It’s a domestic championship, and nobody’s going to come from further than Newcastle to watch it, so any “economic benefit” is entirely illusory.
“She? I always thought Jude was a bloke.”
Yeh ,Paul, but that was before the miracle.
Mole @ 21. Doesn’t matter how you build them they won’t last and nothing will work so long as people live in isolated desert communities and we try to achieve living conditions comparable to those of modern town dwellers with reasonable access to good schools, stores, health and other facilities.
Sorry, but I remember some thirty years ago listening to Fred Chaney, then Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, despairing about the exorbitant cost of remote aboriginal housing and schools after I made representations to him about the desperate conditions I had seen in the Kimberley. You couldn’t blame Fraser or Whitlam for lack of government funding or goodwill either and certainly not Hawke or Keating. I might have loathed Howard for his cold heart and his attitude but I don’t think we can blame him either. Blame instead the likes of Iron Bar Tuckey and his business associates in the liquor industry and their more modern counterparts peddling drugs and electronic porn.
But they wouldn’t be up there if there were no profit for them. Politicians are only to blame to the extent that they keep throwing money at this problem, building community centres and hospitals and sending up subsidised public servants and consultants who design culturally appropriate housing. I remember that was very much the thing in the eighties, and seems to have fared no better than the earlier and inadequate urban style housing.
It pains me to say it but like the poor, remote Aboriginal disadvantage will always be with us as long as we encourage those communities to survive. Doesn’t mean we don’t do what we can in situ, but far better to entice people out there into more mainstream life by encouraging talent towards achievement and the able bodied into employment. The goodwill and activism of people in business like Twiggy Forrest might help. But unemployment benefits, and even those CDEP wages in some cases, for people in communities where no employment exists are exactly what Aboriginal people call them – “sit down money” – money to burn on drink, drugs, DVDs and other destroyers of families and healthy lives.
Subsistence living in our harsh Australian environment over millennia makes a mockery of the idea that more funding can fast track solutions to this problem. I have to part company with K Rudd on this. We mustn’t throw more money at it. We mustn’t try harder. We have to find a way to help them help themselves. Which means we somehow stop being in the way. I have no idea how that can be done, except that Mal Brough should not be involved at all.
I’ve assembled an entire Ikea kitchen…!!!…..only one miracle to go! Saint Furious sounds great, I reckon.
I don’t see how Rudd talking to the Pope about the beatification of Mary MacKillop is a big deal.
In fact, it’s rather nice to see some recognition that there are other forms of worship in this country aside from the worship dedicated to sporting pursuits. He’s planning on paying a visit to the FIFA head honcho too.
I’m not a great fan of Rudd’s, but I do think he’s quite a smart diplomat – witness his strong opinions on Tibet – I don’t recall there being any concerns about that. Is not the Dalai Llamas status in the world a consequence of some equally ‘hocus-pocus’ ideas? Apologies to any Buddhist’s here..I don’t personally think it’s hocus-pocus, I’m just borrowing the expression.
Furious: again, I would argue that there’s a very big difference between speaking to the Dalai Lama about Tibet, and discussing with the Dalai Lama whether there’s any chance he might choose to reincarnate himself in Australia when the time comes.
I’d argue that Mary Mackillop’s saintly status is analogous to the second discussion topic rather than the first.
Reading some of the earlier posts above (before the Ikea kitchen debate inevitably came along) it becomes clear to me why we lost the Republic Referendum.
A bigger bunch of nitpicking, wowsers, full of their own sanctimony and pompous certainties as to what is politically “OK” and what is not I have never seen.
As Patricia said, ” Hey guys, we’ve got a half decent government. Who’s complaining?”
The PM should be focussing his energy on the Major Economies Forum, and not be distracted by things like visits to the pope, or lobbying FIFA. The MEF meeting is too important.
Any post that links to a News Ltd web site for purposes other than satire is not to be taken seriously.
The process of canonisation is clearly a result of lobbying and spin and PR muscle.
If it was about miracles Benny Hinn would be more famous than St Pat hiself.
Benny does about 10 an hour going by his TV show.
Furious Balancing – how refreshing to read your comment. I’m always tentative in airing my doubts about the Dalai Lama. They’re not because of his spiritual teachings, being something of an agnostic about things religious, but because of the peasant condition of his followers. His subjects, I mean, not his trendy Western Buddhist disciples.
I’ve met many educated Tibetans in Nepal and of course here as new immigrants. They are so charming, with it and successful and delightful. It astonishes me that they accept the feudal conditions of those they’ve left behind both in Tibet and Dharamsala where the Indians permit him to hold his government in exile. No separation of powers there – His Holiness is both spiritual and secular ruler and his subjects prostrate themselves before him. And no representative government or democratic elections either. When His Holiness passes on to the next life they go scouring the countryside for his re-incarnation to become their next ruler.
We westerners almost bow and scrape too when we meet him, even here in Australia, with our Namastes and Your Holinesses. I even felt a slither of sympathy for the Chinese perspective on Tibet when I saw our parliamentarians last week in Dharamsala lining up for his blessing. I noticed Sarah Hanson-Young there reverentially accepting her white scarf of welcome and wondered if her child was there with her. I wondered too if Bob Brown took time out to have a word with His Holiness about democratic elections should Tibet ever achieve independence from China.
Correction! Disclaimer! Bob Brown wasn’t there. And I am totally ignorant of whatever “democratic structure” there might be among the Tibetans in exile whom apparently our parliamentary group went specifically to meet. And I was so enjoying my little rant…….
As I have commented elsewhere on LP, Rudd’s ambition is to become God or at least a god. Consequently he has to be everywhere, be in control of everything, know everything and solve everything.
He’s just getting warmed up…
Baraholka, this discussion was more about the proposed canonisation of Mary MacKillop. But since you mention it, Kev seems to have performed an identified economic miracle right here in Australia.
[The PM should be focussing his energy on the Major Economies Forum, and not be distracted by things like visits to the pope, or lobbying FIFA. The MEF meeting is too important.]
Peter Wood (33). Man cannot live by MEF (Manna-Enriched Food) alone.
[And, anyway, what I want to know is why nobody made Robin Hood a saint.]
Paul Burns (26). Just like Eve, it was probably all Maid Marion’s fault: “she made me do it!”
Well, they made St George a saint, close enough. And then wanted to get rid of him during Vatican II. Something about it being improbable that he saved a woman from a dragon. No imagination. But they decided against it, he being Englands patron saint and all, the red cross in the flag and all that, which come to think of it, is in our flag. The tentacles of hocus pocus everywhere you look really.
The Dalai Lama analogy needs to be refigured to incorporate the PMs religious inclinations. Therefore if Rudd were Bhuddist, well, of course they would discuss reincarnation.
And speaking of miracles I now have a bookshelf which reaches into the heavens. I call it Babel. St Thaddeus of the the lost Case did jack Joe 2. But I like his name. St Anthony, now, he is a saint. Lost things. So I found a tool box with a man attached to it. Go figure.
(Being a feminist however, I did pray to St Anthony to find Pavlovs Cat, who recently did a home maintentance course, to be living next door. But that was just psychotic. No matter how many times I clicked my heels.)
Sorry, Casey. If it makes you feel any better, I reluctantly skived off Week 4 (Plumbing) because I had what felt like swine flu and didn’t want to give it to the tutor, who is the most useful woman in Adelaide, so if the problem involves drippy taps or blocked toilets I wouldn’t be able to help in any case.
Casey: Rudd was raised Catholic, but as I understand it (and according to Wikipedia) has attended Anglican services for most of his adult life.
“So I found a tool box with a man attached to it.”
Sometimes they are handy other times not.
Ask St Lily…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Qa28ZrHPcc
Robert I know this. I said it remember? Do you think this means it is not his brief? The two denominations disagree on a number of signficant points which preclude reunification, but both adhere to the orthodoxy of the Apostle’s Creed. They both share the same historical saints too. What else do you talk about as a practicing Christian Prime Minister of Catholic origin, but now of Anglican practice – but of the developments within the churches of the nation you lead? But Rudd is also clever. The saint making of MacKillop is serious serious business within the Catholic church of Australia. The groundswell of support and lobbying for it is reaching fever pitch. It would be a coming of age for this very young Catholic church to have its own saint. Yes yes hocus hocus. But it signifies deeply to the Catholic constistituency that its PM speaks of MacKillop to its spiritual leader. Of course, Robert, like you I would prefer it if Rudd lobbied the pope on changing his view on condoms and contraception and the ordination of women and of full rights for gay people within the church. But that is not going to happen until we get a female pope.
So back to Ikean saints. Pav, it was a bookshelf – therefore according to my calculations, you are qualified for beatification in the church of clever women with their own drills. Congratulations.
Dear, dear, Joe2. She is looking in all the wrong tool boxes innit?
I realize that – which makes me far more cynical about the whole exercise. But that’s not really relevant to the original point, and, frankly, none of my business as a non-Catholic.
Fair enough, some Catholic constituents want it. But indulging their belief – or the belief of any other members of any other religious denomination – that the internal machinations of their church are a matter for secular politics is a bad idea.
Anyway, I think I’ve said my piece.
Do you really need to lobby to make saints? How 21st century. I guess Rudd could argue that beatifying Mary Whatsherface could create more merchandising opportunites for the Catholics in Australia. The Pope would like that.
I think Rudd would be better off arguing for Jim Stynes beatification. After all, Melbourne won this weekend, which is something of a miracle. And it’s about as sane and reasonable as anyone else becoming a saint.
Acerbic Conehead @ 41
The Bible does not teach that Eve corrupted Adam if that is what you are implying. I recently had a discussion on another blog about that and I have put my case <a href="http://indifferencegivesyouafright.wordpress.com/2009/07/05/the-roots-of-western-misogyny-not" here.
I would be very interested in any further opinions you may have on the proposition ‘The Bible does not teach that Eve corrupted Adam’
Regards,
Barra
Baraholka (51). I don’t give a fiddler’s f*** if Eve corrupted Adam, or if the snake ended up on the barbie. A little bit of advice to you – don’t take anything I say seriously – nobody else does.
That link in clickable format
here.
In fact climbing the greasy pole to sainthood has a long and venerable history. Consider the example of St George, Patron Saint of England.
Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s! Robert Merkel agrees with me.