Various News Limited scribes on the weekend opined (all speaking in the voice of Tony Abbott’s ventriloquist dummy – it couldn’t be more obvious) that Malcolm Turnbull had set himself the task of tearing Rudd down in order to win. And failed. [By the way, bad move according to the News punditariat - nothing at all to do with publishing fake Utegate emails on front pages - who are now touting the said Tony Abbott, who presumably is as pure as the driven snow and would never resort to personal attacks or absurd and false confected scandalising in the most unlikely event he became Opposition Leader...] In case you missed the various stories, Turnbull has “declared” the Liberals can win the next election. That’s a matter of total irrelevance to the actual dynamic of Australian politics, since the “influence” of the News Limited opinionistas now only extends to Liberal MPs (and, sadly, the ABC’s more recondite political correspondents).
There’s a bit of a problem with this meme.
In a (now) rare piece of relatively sensible and reality based political commentary, Lenore Taylor, formerly of the Australian Financial Review, wrote in The Australian on the weekend that the “personal destruction of Rudd” thing failed dismally for the serried ranks of Howardistas in government and – were she writing completely honestly she might have added – in News Limited in 2007.
She also neglected to observe that Dennis Shanahan was the most enthusiastic participant in this collective delusion. While Glenn Milne, one might conjecture, did the mud slinging antecedent to the putative glorious Howard re-election that never was.
I don’t think Taylor – or any other commentators – noted that Rudd made himself a small target as Opposition Leader (… yes, they said so at the time, but two years is apparently a thousand weeks in politics in the collective memory of the press gallery). Malcolm Turnbull, by contrast, is a very big one.
He’s hoist on his own petard, and Rudd, Gillard and Tanner only need to stoke the fires now. The Libs – and their false friends in News Limited – will now do the job for them… while the PM again sails up into the non-political nation building good bloke etc. stratosphere, not dented in the slighted by increasingly frenzied rants about “spin” in bizarre articles in The Australian, which in the case of Imre Salusinzky’s latest, consisted mostly of on the record quotes from one John Howard.
[Incidentally, anyone else wondering who the source for the "Howard never would have acted like Turnbull did" meme is? I suspect John Winston himself. His cold dead hand appears to have been all over the News Limited coverage recently, overtly and covertly, and I suspect he's taking the chance to destroy Turnbull, whom he's never loved, and reward his buddy Tone, who made such a big deal of continuing to visit the former Dear Leader's humble North Shore digs to extend the hand of friendship in his time of trial...]
The madness of touting Tony Abbott’s leadership chances just points to how inward looking and utterly disconnected from political reality all this nonsense has become.
The Libs should forget about leadership saviours. Their first step to being politically competitive would actually be to recognise that the Murdoch Empire has no clothes. Everyone else has. They risk going down with the ship. But don’t hold your breath. It’s difficult to breathe from a thousand leagues under the sea.
Nb: Note lack of links to the Taylor and Salusinzky pieces in the OO. I’ve noticed that they’re actually making their content harder to find online, which I suspect is preparatory to the erection of Teh Great Pay Wall of News. Should you wish to refer to the articles in question, you can probably find a copy in a library of the weekend edition. In the meantime, they’re losing advertising revenue from the links I would have otherwise inserted. Sad, isn’t it?
Why would anyone now think that Tony Abbott was a suitable leader for the Liberal Party? He was a hard-liner in the discredited Howard government and a failed Minister for Health who ruined the lives of many women who were subjected to unconscionable pressure to have babies they could not afford. He is a religious extremist.
Why does anyone read the waste of time Murdoch chip-wrap, let alone waste their money paying for it?
“the Murdoch Empire has no clothes”.The Naked News?
WB, for the Libs it is about who you especially don’t like, against who you can live with, leadershipwise (lib self contradictory term).
Politicians in print?
Not sure which noun above will die first. Actually I give pollies as we know ‘em now about five years ahead of print as we know it.
The future is not gonna slow up.
I’d class today’s Oz as probably the most delusional ever. Milne detects signs of meglomania in Rudd’s attempt to “control the media:; but having failed to detect the glaringly obvious ones in his predecessor, I don’t think he knows what they are. Mark Day declares
Lenore Taylor, Nicola Berkovic claim THE G8 summit of world leaders in Italy this week has turned into a high-risk gamble.
There’s “The Dodgy Ute” on the cartoon links …. AND …
probably the most telling tale – SA Liberals in disarray.
Now we all know the precipitating cause of this debacle – a fake Scientology email that, without checking that it was the real dead, the Libs used to try to destroy the ALP government and hopefully force an early election … Ah, folks, but they beat Turnbull to it by weeks. Mark Owen has two articles, “Liberal leader, Martin Hamilton-Smith to stand down” which mentions the precipitating move in this euphemistic classic
The second “Vote debacle turns party leadership mess to farce” avoids all mention of it. I wonder why. Wouldn’t do to remind the public of that great statesman Talleyrand’s’s opinion of France’s Bourbon monarchy exiled after the French Revolution
And all this and more, Friends, is just a selection of Today’s Oz front page (tho I did eyeball Owens for the fake email reference.
IMO Talleyrand’s famous observation would apply equally to the Liberals and The Australian.
You are right on the ball Mark, as indicated by the fact that the biggest swinging dick at The Australian, John Hartigan, can barely restrain his rage at Crikey and this here inestimable blog amongst others.
We know News Ltd commentators read these blogs avidly every day because you can see the same lines of arugment in their crazed editorial raves every weekend. That’s when they are not ranting about Media Watch.
It is even possible to plant dodgy information in political blogs like this one and see it reported next day as “private sources” next day. I refer in particular to sheridan’s breathless report a few weeks ago that Rudd wants the top UN job, based on secret information only available to him. It might be true, it might not, but it was first suggested here in bloggerland, as any good media tracker would know. Desperate men do desperate things.
The rage of men thrashing around with relevance deprivation syndrome. Its quite interesting to watch in a creepy kinda way. The man with the exploding hair and his dancing bears at News Ltd are now a standing joke out here in voterland, as our only national newspaper gets thinner and thinner and sillier and sillier.
And yes, Leanore Taylor is the only commentator at News Ltd who occasionally makes some sense, and notably, the only woman given any prominance. They should pay her a lot of money for the work she does keeping their heads just above the waterline of relevancy.
As for Tony Abbott, women in this country will not have a bar of him, for clear and apparent reasons, but if you live inside the men’s smoking room at parliament house, like milne, sheridan and shanahan, how would you know?
Tony Abbot has one major problem, and I don’t know how to be tactful about this; some-one once remarked to me that he is as “ugly as a hatful of arseholes”. I would not draw such a comparison myself but I sort of understand where my commentator was coming from.
He opens every statement with a sort of “arroowww” noise that is very unpleasant and then goes on to be very negative and annoying.
He always comes across as unpleasant and self centred, narcissistic.
Given this basic material, even the delusional rightists at the Oz Daily Astonisher have a major makover in front of them.
No way can he win against the boyish smile of the Rudbot.
Huggy
Did it ever occur to people that news limited is just out there for one purpose – to sell papers and make money? They sensationalised the story about rudd becuase they KNEW it would be a big deal that would make people buy papers. The funny thing is that LP seems to forget all the shit that turnbull got from the murdock press when he turned out to have been duped. The fact is that most of the newspapers in the murdoch press supported rudd when he ran for pm in 2007. LP just cant stand the fact that the criticism goes both ways – the liberals have been subjected to years of damaging leadership speculation by the papers. Both side think the press are against them because THEY ONLY SEE THE BAD STUFF.
The other issue for News Ltd and the Libs is it’s started to work the other way as well. New Ltd is losing customers. They are in a lose lose situation.
Back when I was at school the Aus was regarded as a bit of a dry read but well worth reading for some good journalism.
Now they are addicted to opinion pieces after being king makers. At least until recently.
So where does that leave it’s readers?
1. Readers looking for good journalism will look elsewhere.
2. Readers looking for certain opinions by now will be looking online. After all, more opinion is on the web, and it’s more inclusive and updated in seconds. Long gone are the days of writing a rant and then waiting days for it to be published, if at all.
3. There will be remaining readers who don’t want a bar of that internet thing, but they are disappearing and more importantly for News Ltd…becoming less relevant.
In short what’s killing News Limited is that they sing the same song every day. And eventually even the biggest fans will get tired of hearing it. Let alone pay for it.
I’m going to address that estimable company by the name Ltd News from now on.
I saw it referred to as such somewhere and it seems more appropriate.
In the spirit of News Ltd reporting, we can characterise this as a MEDIA WAR between “newpapers” (sic) and the intertube blogs (oh, and Media Watch too, bless ‘em).
Its a fight to death folks, with much clashing of symbols, exploding heads, and poison prose.
And we already know who is gonna win. HuffPo, Punch aint.
Milne’s rant today, which is absurdly petulant even by his standards, needs to be framed around three things:
1. The PM’s jet has set off on a world trip, and he ain’t on it. This gives a pretty clear signal as to where you stand within the internal media pecking order;
2. John Hartigan flagged last week that he thinks News has too many people reporting in Canberra on “the politics of politics” compared to what its readers want, so we know what that means in terms of staff hiring and firing;
3. His dream of being the Media Officer for a PM has pretty much gone. If he still hopes to work for PM Tony Abbott, then the climate there is even more delusional than could be imagined.
Jack @8 wrote:
The fact is that most of the newspapers in the murdoch press supported rudd when he ran for pm in 2007
Exactly which ones, Jack? There are 6 listed at the end of NewsLts’s on-line papers. Most of 6 = 4. Name them. All 4. There are references to all NewsLtd (and other) editorials on several blogs in the week leading up to and including 24/11/07. In addition, you can check it through individual paper indexes.
I’ll give you a head start: The Australian didn’t; the Courier Mail didn’t; that leaves you four to check. If you can’t find at least two more, you owe us an apology.
After the SA & Federal email disasters, surely it’s seeped through the skulls of most NewsLtd and Tory supporters that a smart, wise writer should check the facts before going into print with dodgy information or guess work.
The Murdoch papers remind me of the near city regional towns of years gone by that refused to accept the bona fides of blockies. Even though these blocks were made available by farmers taking advantage of high land prices, said farmers winged and groaned about perceived faults in the management of the small holdings all the while using these blocks to unload hay, fencing materials and labour.
Few would now deny their value to the regional centers and when the Murdoch hacks catch up with the rest of the world we will look back in much the same way.
Oh btw a few denier/sceptics are still out there in the same parallel universe as Ackerman Bolt Blair etc.
“The funny thing is that LP seems to forget all the shit that turnbull got from the murdock press when he turned out to have been duped.”
And Jack, if you look closely, the turning point in this saga for them was when 3 polls came out showing Turnbull was on the nose with voters. They and their opposition mates were desparately trying to hold the line until confronted with the obvious.
DeeCee
congrats on an inadvertent but apt typo:
“a fake Scientology email that, without checking that it was the real dead”
fake documents should indeed lead to political illness (if not death). Did the SA Oppo Leader manage to wriggle out of it? Will he be sued for defamation? So how does the Federal Oppo Leader think he can wriggle out of a strikingly similar pit, of his own digging?
Willy #1:
As Karl Marx said of one of his contemporaries, Tony Abbott’s eminence is due to the flatness of the surrounding terrain.
The Libs should forget about leadership saviours. Their first step to being politically competitive would actually be to recognise that the Murdoch Empire has no clothes. Everyone else has. They risk going down with the ship. But don’t hold your breath. It’s difficult to breathe from a thousand leagues under the sea.
Be careful mixing your metaphors. You might wake up with a terrible headache the morning after.
Lenore Taylor does good at The Oz but we shouldn’t forget George Megalogenis. His economic stuff is spot on. His voter analysis after the 2007 poll was groundbreaking. Did any one note him being called a liar by Andrew Bolt on the Insiders after George brought up conversations he had had with Labor people about Turnbull. Thought George could have jobbed him at the very least. And Bolt’s last bit waving around “figures” he had proving global warming is a lie. Could the Insiders please publish the documentation he was using.
People don’t normally get hoist on a petard; they get hoist by a petard. A petard is a small explosive device.
d 2 19.
I just thought Bolt was being his usual troglodyte morlock self. George had this to say about Turnbull, on, I think, Saturday – http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25729336-7583,00.html
Fascinating.
Jack @8 said “Did it ever occur to people that news limited is just out there for one purpose – to sell papers and make money? ”
Are you sure this is true Jack? My understanding is that The Australian makes little or no profit. Rupert keeps it for its power to influence. (I’ve tried to find some profit figures but can’t.)
Milne today manages to repeat the lie used by Lewis ,Turnbull before him. Grech did not give sworn evidence as he was never given the option of taking an oath or affirmation at the Committee hearing.
First no email now no sworn testimony despite this from Turnbull in parliament on 24 June. A former lawyer should know what is meant by sworn testimony.
“Secondly, we have never sought to base our criticism of the government on that email. Last Friday, after Godwin Grech, a senior Treasury official, the man the government put in charge of this OzCar financing vehicle—and there was $2 billion of funding committed towards it—gave sworn testimony …”
[The word petard comes from the Middle French peter, to break wind, from pet expulsion of intestinal gas, ]
I think you can also be hoisted on your own smelly gas, which works well for politics and news business.
From memory News Ltd ran mostly anti-Rudd through most of the campaign and only began to come on board with more balanced stories when it was pretty obvious Rudd wasn’t going to lose. Maybe they were thinking about those millions in advertising revenue the might miss out on. After all they are a business.
I can remember the exultant media at Rudd’s meeting with Burke. They were beside themselves with joy, but people couldn’t care. Oddly these journos took a long time to give up on Burk-gate. Then there was the calling Rudd a liar on his childhood story, the ANZAC beat up, emails and all, union thuggery fears implied front page, Scores beat up which had a nasty little addition to it about Rudd touching up some woman, a falsity added by someone in Downer’s office apparently.
Steve Lewis in The Daily Terror on Saturday illustrates Ltd News’s reporting at its finest:
“… other than a comment that Rudd stood by comments that he had made earlier to Parliament” – eh?
AFR political editor wrote on Friday (gated) in “Utegate bad news for credibility all round”:
Emphasis added.
Paul Burns… Yes I read that column and he had some good figures on Insiders as well. Bolt comment of mine was just frustration at the ABC being used by him to sprout his views and as it was the last word there was no chance of challenging it. I just so sick of this phoney balance policy where Bolt’s views on global warming are givne equal billing when the overhwleming sicentific evidence is that he is talking crap.
And he is News ltd so he is part of the great old media juggernaut so loved by Harto. And to be completely irrelevant did everyone catch this Hartcher column on Saturday on the Senate’s biggest nong Fielding
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/opinion/lessons-from-ozcar-for-everyone-from-pm-to-senate-dunce-20090703-d7rg.html
Goodness apologies for all the literals I hit wrong button
DeeCee actually you’re wrong, the courier mail did support rudd – didnt you see them run a front page article with a giant picture of rudd saying that he had the full support of the paper and howards time was over?
I think its you who should apologise for making statements by which you are obviously trying to mislead or are just ignorant.
Joe2 the turning point came when it was revealed that turnbull had been shown to be wrong, so then the paper turned around and savaged him and ran endless articles about how it was the end for turnbull and he was going to be gotten rid of etc etc.
I have no objection to News Ltd. writing their biased pieces. They are a private company. I do object though at publicly funded ABC taking their points of argument from it.
But jack, Mr Turnbull compounded his difficulties by continuing to campaign – no admission of error or fault. His troubles are of his own making.
Mr Milne today seems to say Mr Turnbull’s troubles arise solely from meeja opinion turning against him; this is highly unlikely. Note that it magnifies meeja influence, way above voters’ common sense and ability to spot a blustering phoney for themselves.
The way Mr Milne tells it, all polls are mostly influenced by himself and other commentators – sheerest poppycock!
What is this paper you speak of?
The Bulletin daily, right?
i still think the republicans in the us deliberately sabotaged themselves in the last election in the hope obama would win and then screw up so badly the voters would run screaming back to them in droves. i can only assume this talk of abbott leading the liberals indicates a similar plan, cos otherwise it’d be political suicide and they may as well award the 2011 election to the alp now.
personally i started fearing for malcolm’s career the minute the libs said they had no intention of dumping him. never a good sign.
An news organisation that employs Beck, Hannity, O’Reilly, Ackerman and Bolt lacks all credibility.
Amigulous, i agree with you that Turnbulls problems are his own making, my point was just that the media will turn on you and sensationalise an issue regardless of which side of politics you are if they think that they’ll sell some papers. thats what happened with the utegate – first they beat up the story about rudd, and then when it fell through they went to turnbull.
Jack: yep.
Still waiting for someone at news to explain the ethics of the dodgy photoshopped email they ran on P1 on DT. Plus Steve Lewis story on the Monday boasting how he broke the story. Silence from News on this. This is what pisses people off, the fact that these clowns think they are the gatekeepers of information. They loved it when people could write in and complain and they could just bin the letters Now we go out and have our say wherever we like unfettered by their censorial chains. That’s what is behind their hatred of the blogoshpere They’re being shown up for the shallow clowns that they are.
“thats what happened with the utegate – first they beat up the story about rudd, and then when it fell through they went to turnbull.”
Nope. Selling papers may be the sails but blatant partisanship is the rudder.
Jack, you seem to want to forget the bit where News limited fought on desperately for a while, on Turnbull’s behalf , tried then to run the line that there are more important things than this utegate thingy that need attending to; then coming to the staggering realisation that none were listening to their bullshit. That took the polls to come down.
Lets face facts. News Limited is like a long running tumour on Australian society, and the tumor is starting to die. Lets speed up the chemo as fast as possible to get rid of these creatures!
Its immensely satisfying to see these morons – who relied for so long on the natural newspaper monopoly – seeing the real value of their ideas and commentary – ie zero.
Jack, The Sunday Mail (?18 /11/07) endorsed Rudd.
DeeCee the Courier ran an article the other day saying how in the lead up to the election they had supported rudd but they had not expected anything in return
Want to know who backed who in the last election?
And Jack is correct on Courier.
http://www.crikey.com.au/2007/11/23/election-07-the-newpapers-choice-this-time-round/
The editorials are completely irrelevant. Is there a single voter in Australia who makes up their mind on the basis of an endorsement leader in a newspaper? What counts is the tenor and tone of the reporting and commentary.
since the “influence” of the News Limited opinionistas now only extends to Liberal MPs
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Is there some data on just what kind of infleunce Rupert’s lot do have?
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I think Rudd plays New Ltd skillfully and has to. They own 70% of the press here. Obama copped a royal cold shoukder from them last year but they finally had to interview him because of the The Phenomena. They had to end up supporting him because he was a winner.Likewise here the News Ltd people have to be seen to back a winner. Turnbull’s a loser.
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I think Tony Abbott would make an excellent Opposition Leader. So do, I suspect, most of the people in Labor Headkicking HQ.
“The editorials are completely irrelevant.”
There is that, true. Must say I’d forgotten the details and would have failed a test.
7% of voters want Tony Abbott as Opposition Leader too. Don’t Know and Someone Else topped the polling.
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2009/07/06/essential-report-positive-economic-outlook-edition/#more-5245
7% of voters want Tony Abbott as Opposition Leader
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Didn’t know that the Labor Mates Club had grown so large.
News corporation journalists are useless grovelling bacteria, slowly being sacked and put out of their misery. The News Corp cancer is finally being expunged out of the body. What the writers from Pravda do when it collapsed?
I’ve been spruiking good old Tone as leader for a little while now as a joke. But then to start reading about it in various places just confirms how desperate the Liberals and Murdoch’s news-tainment arm are to make any kind of mud stick to Rudd; including looking for a “golden” leader to “take it up” to Rudd. Tone is more a creature of Howard’s ilk, which could be appealing to some in the party as polling continues to return bad results for the Libs.
It’s interesting isn’t it? Last time in opposition it took years of failed but more-or-less competent leadership from the alternating Howard/Peacock duo before they resorted to the joke suggestions like Downer and Bishop and Elliott. Oh wait, Downer was more than a suggestion. And actually the biggest joke of all, Bjelke-Petersen, erupted after nly four years now I think about it.
But maybe someone in the Libs’ backroom is just trying to accelerate the natural cycle and get straight to the flakey ideas like Abbott and Smith. When you hear Pyne’s name suggested as a serious possibility, or talk of drafting John Corrigan into a safe seat, you’ll know they’ve bottomed out.
Then of course they have to find the next John Howard to pull the ship together again. Right now it’s hard to figure out who that could be, since I understand pre-selections for Higgins have closed.
The thing is, Ken, Howard left the Libs in much the same state as Menzies did – utterly bereft of talent. They only got rid of Whitlam so quickly by luck rather than good management.
Ken what on earth are you talking about? One of the main reasons the libs were in opposition for so long last time was becuase of the leadership tensions within the party – they tore themselves apart with their infighting. When peacock was there the party was polarised between him and howard – the dries and the wets.
“Right now it’s hard to figure out who that could be, since I understand pre-selections for Higgins have closed.”
Not quite, Ken. They kept it open for an extra month.
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/07/04/saturday-salon-198/#comment-812276
Yes Jack I know but both Howard and Peacock were competent performers. My point was that it took years for them to become sufficiently desperate to desert the competent in favour of the comical. This time around, it’s taken less than two years.
However my comment was just a bit of whimsy and not a serious attempt at analysis. It’s arguable that with Brendan Nelson, sitting in the gutter at 3am and gazing at the stars, they opted for vaudeville straight after the election.
Stars? No, Brendan was gazing into the eyes of homeless folks, innit?
Wildean he was NOT.
Vaudeville?
What choices did they have after the swiftly-delivered Biggest Dummy-Spit in Contemporary Australian Politics?
Yes, step forward Peter C to receive your Peacock award. There was only one nomination in this category. Pardon me? You will not come to the podium?? Pardon?? No, the Academy is not dominated by Trotskyite union-factional-thug Maoist fraudsters. No you must be flashing back to your undergraduate politics days, Mr C.
OK, we’ll go to a commercial break, and coming up right after that, the Peacock award for Most Narcissistic Press Conference (Including Resignation Press Conferences). Don’t go away, folks!
ABC Morning breakfast TV. Virginia Trioli actually paid out on News Ltd. (Could it be the ABC has a peek at LP now and then?) Still, credit where credit is due. Congrats, Virginia.
Perhaps Virginia reads, sees, thinks for herself?
I’d like to think that, but she does veer to the right an awful lot. (Today her and Uhlman were sort of decrying the socialist revolution in South America, trying, not very cleverly, to compare it with the old socialism of pre 1990s, thereby demonstrating they had no idea what they were talking about (esp. Uhlman.)
That is exactly right. The widespread practice of simply ignoring women in male-dominated discussions does not make the fact that we make up 51% of voters go away. Which is what I said to the (reliable, in this matter at least) source who was telling me of Abbott’s Prime Ministerial ambitions back before the turn of the century, when we all knew a lot less about him.
Apropos of which, in the wake of departed SA Opposition Leader Martin Hamilton-Smith, the two front runners and I think still the only two declared candidates for his job are both women, Vickie Chapman and Isobel Redmond. My (different, but again reliable) source tells me that Rann and his cohort of senior-minister bully-boys are scared of Chapman because trying to bully her has no effect and they therefore have no idea how to deal with her. God knows what this state needs is an Opposition that will keep the Labor boys in line, so I hope she wins and whips the sad bastards of her party into shape.
On the general question of media partisanship, it’s worth recalling that Bob Menzies was never very impressed with the anti-Labor partisanship of much of the press during his time as PM, because he judged that papers which ran a consistently partisan line would lack the ability to persuade voters who could be and needed to be persuaded. He was always happier with the coverage his government got from The Age, which after subjecting his government to critical scrutiny for two years and 364 days of the election cycle would come out with a measured recommendation on polling day to re-elect the Coalition.
PC you are most likely correct that the Libs would lose more women voters than gain, should they choose Tone as Leader.
But there are (at least) two questions here.
1. Could Tone be elected PM?
2. Will the Libs elect Tone as Leader?
If the answer to Q1 is “no” that doesn’t preclude the Lib Perty room answering “yes” to Q2. Look at their track record since the electoral defeat of Malcolm Fraser.
Well, Ambi, as Grace points out, if the relevant powerbrokers live in the men’s smoking room at Parliament House …
Heh.
Yes!
with the ‘pundits’ hanging around outside hoping to get a whiff of the very expensive cigars and port.
The ALP was once made up of the cream of the working class. Now it is made up of the dregs of the middle class.
The ALP was once made up people who got involved in politics. Now it is made up of people who sit at home hiding behind fake names posting blog comments bitching about real Australians who get out there and have a go.
You do the math.
Hammer on the head Frank. OK guys, time to fess up. Which one of us is Rudd?
I’m Spartacus
I’m Spartacus
No, I’m Spartacus.
I’m Spartacus
Typical groupthink in action there. On the minus side Frank, you’re outnumbered
solidarity, tssk.
I must confess I’m a bit confused as to how a group of people who sit at home hiding behind fake names posting blog comments bitching about real Australians who get out there and have a go managed to get themselves voted into government.
I’m John Gre*nfield.
zoot
My apologies in that case, and congratulations. But just refresh my memory, which of you “managed to get themselves voted into government.” Mark? Paul Burns, Paul Norton, Pavlov’s Cat? GregM, tigtog, grace pettigrew? Mercurius?
“The ALP was once made up people who got involved in politics. Now it is made up of people who sit at home hiding behind fake names posting blog comments bitching about real Australians who get out there and have a go.
You do the math.”
Frank, you wrote it mate. You do the reading comprehension.
FDB
Try this quick quiz? What “makes up” the ALP?
Pour moi, I am not hidin’ behind nuthin’, Frank, as you’d know if you knew how to recognise a hyperlink and click on it. And as far as I know the Pauls Burns and Norton really are called that and haven’t even bothered with noms de blog.
So, what’s your real name?
As for Tony Abbott, women in this country will not have a bar of him, for clear and apparent reasons
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Yes heartless they are heartless.
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It’s not his fault he’s a tragic dork with ears that could fly you to Calcutta when the trade wind’s blowing right. And the fact that he reminds 6 out of every 7 Australian women of the wretched little boy in Grade 3 whose nose ran a pale green Niagra and always smelled of tainted cheese…
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Well that is his fault really.
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Which is just another reason for people here to wholeheartedly support Tony as the next leader of the Opposition.
Jack and Deecee – Did it ever occur to people that news limited is just out there for one purpose – to sell papers and make money?
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Yes there’s also power. The prime power of a newspaper is to influence politics. Rupert Murdoch has admitted that he will issues briefs viz ‘the line’ his editors are to take on certain issues. The only News Ltd paper that criticised going to Iraq was The Mercury. it didn’t last long.
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Viz support for Rudd. Murdoch graciously left it to the editor’s discretion last election. I think probably because he saw that Howard’s number was up. He didn’t exactly shower Rudd with praise but he did endorse him as suitable..
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What News Ltd are attempting to do now is run interference on the old Social Democracy comeback trail.
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Not to worry. Kevvie’s got heaps good management skills. And he’s learned a lot from Tony Blair. He’s hired the world’s very best…
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Liars.
Call me old fashioned, but I always thought it was the members.
The Libs should elect Abbott as Leader. It’s a GREAT idea.
It would give the political journos and cartoonists some meaty two-feet-in-bucket pronouncements to get their pens into. The rest of us could have a good ol’ rotten egg throwing contest on the blog sites. What could be more enjoyable…?
Actually, real Australians say ‘maths’.
And constituent affiliated unions, zoot, in the proportion as set in each State Branch’s Rules. Speaking of doing the arithmetic.
So it looks like the media landscape of the future will be television, mX, the Financial Review, and a political blogosphere expanded to include an out-of-work News Ltd ex-punditariat?
Frank Crean (if that is your real name…)
1) Not in the ALP. Never have been, or any party.
2) It’s my real name.
3) Sometimes at home. Sometimes not. Sometimes standing!
4) I, too, am a real Australian, like you. I’m not a pretend Australian. I have a passport and everyfink!
5) Like most of the commenters here, we have got “out there”, and are “out there”, and our runs are on the board. But you won’t read about those exploits here. This is not the place for it.
6) Yes we are bitching. And what opinion would you suggest we should reserve for the people, like your good self, who are bitching about the people who are bitching?
7) Anything else I can help you with?
Frank Crean #64:
was actually first uttered by Kim Beazley Snr, not your good self.
Frank Crean #73:
Mark is not a member of the ALP and hasn’t been for a while. Paul Burns is a member of the Socialist Alliance, not the ALP. I’m a member of the Greens, not the ALP. Mercurius has spoken for himself, and I’ll let PC, tigtog and Grace do likewise. GregM’s comments seem to usually come from a moderate Liberal perspective, but he can let us know if I’ve taken his username in vain.
Frank Crean et al.
I do a little bit of work for Socialist Alliance every day. My branch voted for me as co-cordinator and as rep on the NSW State Executive.
I was an active anarchist from 1966 to 1975 and a fellow traveller of the CPA since about 1963.
Prior to joining SA I was twice elected to the SRC at UNE in 1979 and 1980, I think. (It’s a long time ago.
I was a member of the ALP from 1975 to 1979. My membership lapsed because I was slack.
I have lost count of the number of election campaigns state and Fedewral I have worked on for the centre left or far left of politics when not a member of any political party since 1969.
On top of all this, until 1989 I specialised in the study of Australian political history, especially Labor, Liberal (UAP) and Country Party history.
Satisfied?
And yes, I do use my real name 99% of the time when I’m blogging. Once, as a joke, I used the nom de blog Paul of Tarsus.
(I also have a broom for clearing cobwebs out of people’s minds.)
Like Mercurius, I have never joined a political party, and never would.
Besides, I’m a feminist. Joining the ALP would make me a masochist.
As for me, I confess. You got me bang to rights, Guvnor.
Just for the record, me @87 same as PC
Oh, and in case you couldn’t tell Frank Crean, I was being sarcastic.
I’m not really the ALP – rather a frequent and vocal critic of it.
I was a member of the Revolutionary Facial Hair Party (Bakuninist-Groucho Marxist) but I was thrown out for shaving my sideburns to short.
I got moderated out somewhere, I think. Not hat I care that much.
I’m a member of the Greens, not the ALP.
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Is there a left-wing party you haven’t joined sometime some place?
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What “makes up” the ALP
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The committment to the noble virtues of socialism with a human
fistface.Well, to start with there’s the Democratic Socialist Party, the International Socialists and all the other Trot, semi-Trot and post-Trot groups. Then there’s the pro-Soviet (former) Socialist Party of Australia which has since stolen the name “Communist Party of Australia” and other pro-Soviet groups such as the Association for Communist Unity. And then there are the various Maoist sects. And the Australian Democrats, the Australia Party, Liberals for Forests, the Republican Party of Australia, etc. I have also never been a member of the Griffith University Labor Club, unlike some people I could mention.
More partisan nonsense in today’s Opposition Organ uncritically parroting Greg Hunt’s line that a draft management plan for the Uluru-Kata Tjuta National Park, released for public discussion by National Parks Australia, represents “Peter Garrett’s agenda” to ban climbing of Uluru.
PC, I loved “Besides, I’m a feminist. Joining the ALP would make me a masochist” but I’m more interested in your comment “Like Mercurius, I have never joined a political party, and never would”.
Would it be intruding to ask why you would never join a political party? I interpret this as not merely that there is no party currently existing you would want to join, but that you wouldn’t join one even if it matched your values and beliefs. Given that you’re clearly a close observer of politics who cares deeply who wins, that interests me.
I’m also interested in reasons from anyone else who feels the same.
ask Groucho Marx
He maintained his standards!
Paul #96 – So back in the 70s when they did the are you a Maoist or a Trot thing you were in the corner wearing a funny hat.
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You did try to join the GU
mafiaALP club didn’t you? But you lacked the requisite polish, looks and intellectual standards expected of such. ..
God bless Tom Sheperdson.
Adrien @ 101,
It sounds like you’ve actually met me. Yep to both. And back then I did lack the required intellectual standards. was just starting out on the big adventure of the mind. As for polish and looks, still don’t have ‘em.
Paul – It sounds like you’ve actually met me.
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Well not that I’m aware of. I was referring to the other Paul. Have met him. He prefers playing guitar and singing to recorded music and doesn’t like techno.
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The only political ‘party’ I’ve ever joined was the proto New Left Party. They had a ballot for members to choose their name. The list of names was good enough reason to cease and desist. And likewise the slowly dawning realization that, try as I might, I’m unable to be a socialist. Simply don’t see things that way.
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Sorry.
Feral:
Ever heard of the Libertarian Party? Or the Anarchist Party? Or the Bloody-Minded Contrarian Party? Ever wonder why not?
Indeed. I was the Returning Officer for the Brisbane component of the ballot, and my then partner’s very large cat showed excellent political judgement by seizing a ballot paper with all the clunky names on it and turning it into confetti with his sharp teeth and huge claws.
The result of the ballot was that the pedestrian working title “New Left Party” won, not because people were enthusiastic about it but because any proposed name which did manage to excite any particular constituency within the party succeeded in arousing trenchant opposition from other constituencies, resulting in the least hated option coming through the middle. This was symptomatic, in my view, of a more fundamental reason why the party eventually petered out.
There was an organisation called the Sydney Anarchist Movement in Sydney from the mid to late sixties. I know cause I joined. (I think it had some connection with the Push, which, as a very young fella, I hung around the edges of, but was never really a member.)
re: Mercurius @ 104
There are reasonably large anarchist/libertarian organisations and anarcho-syndicalist or anarchist/libertarian leaning syndicalist unions in continental Europe.
The main reason the New Left Party petered out after a year or two was because it was an attempted rebadging of the moribund Stalinist Communist Party of Australia which by the end of its life had about as much raison d’etre and radical verve as a hunk of bone-dry roadkill.
That wasn’t true for the New Left Party in Brisbane, Phil. Not that it was a raging success.
any proposed name which did manage to excite any particular constituency within the party succeeded in arousing trenchant opposition from other constituencies
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Precisely. It was a catalogue of mulitfarious flotsam on the counter-cultural sea of New Left Romanticism. Pretty much summed up the vagueness of left of Labor ideology at the time.
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The main reason the New Left Party petered out after a year or two was because it was an attempted rebadging of the moribund Stalinist Communist Party of Australia
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Most of the CPA members I met, and the NLP was an attempt to refresh the brand, were Eurocommunists. Ironically those most resembling Stalinists (outside the ALP) were Trots. The CPA were essentially dominated by advocates of Social Democracy whose manners were too good to spend serious time with the Labor Party hogs.
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The NLP had no unifying principle. And someone suggested a switch of colour.
Mark and Adrien are far closer to the mark than Phil. Whatever criticisms cold be made of the CPA during the last 20+ years of its existence, the “Stalinist” tag doesn’t wash. And if the preferred outcome of the CPA’s internal debates from 1982 onwards had been simply a rebadging of the existing party, it could and would have been done far more quickly (i.e. by about 1986) and simply than the long and tortuous processes of negotiating the formation of a new party with the disparate elements which cohabited in the NLP from 1989 to 1993.
Phil seems to suffer from the same kind of tunnel vision as people like Gary McLennan (on a bad day) in Brisbane, Bob Gould (on a bad day) in Sydney and the remaining orthodox Trotskyist groups (everyday, everywhere), namely the desire to hack and stretch their analysis of Eurocommunist parties such as the CPA to fit the Procrustean bed of the orthodox Trotskyist model of Stalinist betrayal of the revolution, giving us such bizarre tropes as the characterisation of the ALP-ACTU Accord in the 1980s as “Popular Front Stalinism”.
Much like the Eurocommunist parties it emulated, the CPA’s formal turn away from Stalinism was limited in scope. Certainly as many of its former members attest it remained Stalinist in its undemocratic internal practices and in much of its politics and organisational methods and behaviour within the broader left. The CPA adopted Khrushchev’s simplistic “cult of the personality” explanation for the Stalinist degeneration of the Soviet Union. Non Stalinist/Eurocommunist Marxists everywhere, on the other hand, had long developed and insisted on far more detailed, incisive and above all historical materialist explanations for this process. Thereafter, like the Eurocommunists, the CPA self-servingly developed historical amnesia about the exact role it’d played in perpetuating Stalinism and Stalinist politics for so many decades throughout the world with the tragic effect of drastically undermining support for socialism as even an ideal for generations to come.
The CPA in its last couple of decades, under the impact of the New Left and its social movements, above all feminism and the gay liberation movement, was a conglomeration of often competing groups moving in different often conflicting directions. Women often organised effectively as a separate semi-hostile faction within a sexist, in many ways conservative male-dominated party with its side-serving of celebrity cults of largely autonomous, trade union leaders and careerists like Laurie Carmichael, most of whom were rapidly moving to the right. Most importantly the national Aarons et al dynastic leadership based predominantly in NSW and Victoria itself organised as a separate faction within the CPA seeking to mediate between the subsidiary warring factions but merely ending up politically compromising them all.
In the early 1980s, the CPA national leadership, its right-wing trade union apparatchiks campaigned for and won the support of its campus-based, middle-class membership for the ACTU-ALP Prices & Income Accord despite opposition to it from many of its rank-and-file-worker and more radical members who foresaw the disaster it decisively proved to be for the Australian trade union and labour movement and the working class as a whole, particularly its most vulnerable, exploited layers such as women and the low-paid.
It was the CPA’s support for the Accord above all that finally completely destroyed the credibility of the CPA as a force for radical social change, and even its members’ and periphery’s belief in itself, and heralded its final demise.
Much like the Eurocommunist parties it emulated, the CPA’s formal turn away from Stalinism was limited in scope.
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Correct me if I’m mistaken someone but I seem to recall that there were three Comm Parties who broke with he Comintern completely over Hungary. Australia being one of them. (I think Italy was another couldn’t tell you who the third one was). By the time the CPA disbanded and the NLP’s abortive genesis was underway the people who were born the year the Sovs invaded Hunagary would’ve been in their 40s.
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I don’t see how the tag ‘Stalinist’ fits except as a general term of abuse indicating conformance with the gist of (Labor instituted) orthodoxy. “Stalinist” in the same sense that anyone of the Left who proved disobedient or heterodox was labelled a “Trot” by the ALP.
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My memory of the Comm Party types was excellent parties.
Phil raises a range of points in his most recent comment, not all of which I would completely disagree with. However he contradicts himself by claiming, in one paragraph, that the CPA’s break with Stalinism was “formal” and “limited in scope” and then, in the next paragraph, characterising the CPA in its last two decades as a New Left influenced, new social movement influenced, ultra-pluralist and factionalised party. Stalinist parties don’t allow women (or anyone else) to “organise effectively as a separate semi-hostile faction”. FWIW I think Phil’s second paragraph is closer to the mark than his first.
On the question of the analysis of Stalinism, the CPA’s position on this issue in its last decades went well beyond Khrushchev’s “cult of the personality” trope. I would nevertheless agree that its analysis of Stalinism needed to go further and deeper – but so too do the analyses of the Marxists that Phil alludes to, which largely don’t face up to the responsibility of Leninism, Lenin and Trotsky for laying the ground for Stalinism, and the legacy of Lenin’s and Trotsky’s proto-Stalinism in the modern Trotskyist movement.
Whilst the CPA was not above criticism during its Eurocommunist period for its internal and external practices, I have never ceased to be fascinated by the credulity of non-CPA leftists (and of non-left activists and commentators) towards the “I chose freedom” claims of disgruntled ex-CPA members whose disgruntlement was more often than not due to not getting their own way in an internal debate, and who were themselves far from exemplars of democratic practice during their time in the party. The Taft-Bermingham faction which split in 1984 ticks both these boxes. As a further example, the recriminatory resignation letter of CPA student activist Gary Nicholls in 1979 was seen by every other faction in the student movement (including my own) as proof of the persistence of High Stalinism amongst the CPA leadership. I was later to learn that the reality was a rather pedestrian dispute about ballot rules which was a mooncast shadow of what happens routinely in the ALP.
As for Phil’s final comments about the Accord, all that is necessary to say here is that any valid criticisms (and there are quite a few) which can be made about the Accord and the CPA’s support for it are quite a separate matter from the question of Stalinism. To illustrate, whilst the Stalinist (pro-Soviet) Association for Communist Unity was uncritically pro-Accord, the even more Stalinist (pro-Soviet) Socialist Party of Australia and (Maoist) Communist Party of Australia (Marxist-Leninist) were stridently anti-Accord.
I have a funny feeling that we’re OT.
They were great parties. I think I went to one a week from 1963 to about 1967. (I was in a fringe far-left theatre group that had connections with the New Theatre. I’ve never been able to drink rough claret ever since, I consumed so much of it. And I won’t even get into why I can’t stand Scotch. Even after all these years I can hardly bear the smell of it, let alone the taste. And everybody I met connected with various CPA fringe groups (Theatre 60, New Theatre, Fellowship of Australian Writers, and one or two others I can’t remember after so many years) are still among some of the nicest amd most decent people I’ve ever met.
Stalinism? Tosh! Adien has hit the nail on the head in 113.
Ah, Paul Burns – I have similar feelings towards vodka and tequila. (Scotch is still OK, but I never used to over-indulge in that when young.)
It’s a pity that so much of the real history is lost and any deep analysis seemingly impossible. Perhaps tomorrow’s historians…
Ironic that so many people around the New Left Party always mentions its parties. Seems like it was the main thing going for it, or most memorable. Telling. I loathe parties so I wouldn’t have been seduced by those under any moon.
I wonder where all these “nice, decent” people are partying now?
I have a funny feeling that we’re OT.
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Yeah dangerous innit?
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the Marxists that Phil alludes to, which largely don’t face up to the responsibility of Leninism, Lenin and Trotsky for laying the ground for Stalinism
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Or Marx himself.
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I don’t endorse the Marx=Death camps schtick, that’s just some rhetorical trick to con dumb-arse ill-educated Americans into voting for people who’re gonna destroy public education there even more. But Marx helped found authoritarian socialism. And Marxist-Leninists, even the vanilla sign-the-petition types we have in this country, are frighteningly autocratic when you get to know ‘em. It’s true. It’s the self-righteousness that accompanies religious fervour.
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Marx was the one that developed the idea that the State should own everything to the point where someone could come along and make it so.
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Marx’s proscriptions are problematic for many reasons. At the time, Mr Proudhon elucidated. And ye know Pierre Joseph was cooler ’cause Courbet was his mate.
Adrien is just a self-serving wannabe cockroach capitalist who probably got the rebuff over and over from even the daggiest female NLP partygoer.
It shows, pal.
Adrien is just a self-serving wannabe cockroach capitalist…
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Well true. I wanna be something else besides a capitalist cockroach. Working on it now. Wish me luck.
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who probably got the rebuff over and over from even the daggiest female NLP partygoer
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No. I got seduced by one of the foxiest Comm Party chicks. But, sadly, I had to decline her offer. I’d had too much too drink. After that she thought I was gay.
Couldn’t get it up, eh. The story of your life?
Well no not exactly. I have an entirely other sexual dysfunction when I’m pissed. I’ll be well thanked for not elaborating. I just don’t think it’s a good idea to make it mo’ better when inebriated. Especially the first time.
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This went off-topic in a good way and now I reckon it’s getting a bit tainted cheese.
Yes, because you had to put your oar in. Fuck off, you anti-leftist scum.
Most defeated cultures have a “ghost dancing” phase like this. Read “Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee”.
Great comment, Lefty E. Even at 17 I couldn’t finish Dee Brown’s heartbreaking book. Your invocation of it makes me weep.
Oh come on. Come on. Come on. That is J to the Ro flippin out up there. I will bet her bottom lip on it.
I think it probably the most magnificent history ever written, Phil. I hate to demean it wit reference to somnething as trivial as the Libs, but its true: there is no miracle coming, only the patient work of reconstruction and survival.
Well they are my lips, Casey, photographed on a webcam for a social networking site.
Well they are bloody nice!
Thanks Casey.
“I think it probably the most magnificent history ever written.”
That is high praise indeed, Lefty E. I always felt like a big failed sook for not finishing Ms Brown’s tome, truth be known, not being able to read much of it at all. Perhaps now I’m adult enough.
And I treasure the reminder and assurance of historical excellence.
Seems Dee Brown was a man! Learning never ceases. I always thought this book was written by a woman.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dee_Brown_(novelist)
Well spotted, Casey, and a welcome return to form!
Heh, Adrian. The love you share/seems to go nowhere…
On the question of parties, I would simply reiterate that in my experience CPA and New Left Party people were much more interesting company at parties than ALP Left people who, on one famous occasion, all turned up to a masquerade party in plain clothes, and it fell to me to defend them against sectarian criticism by pointing out that they were in fact masquerading as members of the working class.
Phil is fresh from fighting the good fight over at catallaxy, where she has been pushing the likes of marxist, psychoanalytic and feminist perspectives on jc and his ilk. There’s something to be said for the sheer bloody-mindedness necessary for such an enterprise.
Nice lips Phil. There was this Country Party branch member who once … ah, better not. Don’t broadcast those kind of experiences as a rule.
Re Dee Brown – its been a long, long time since I’ve read Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee. Ground-breaking, fascinating, if I remember rightly, vaguely polemical,but the most magnificent history ever written? I can think of some others.
than ALP Left people who, on one famous occasion, all turned up to a masquerade party in plain clothes,
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HAHAHA.
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As long as the ALP SL are around the manufacturers of grey tracky-dacks will never go out of business.
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Phil if you’re the same Phil as Phil the Greek then you’re busted. There’s only a 1% probability that those lips are male.
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What’s with the abuse? One week you’re in love with me and the next you heap abuse on me. Is it like the 9 year old girl who thinks a boy’s cute so she keeps kicking him in the shins or some such? Inquiring minds wanna know.
I find it mildly amusing that the link “Today’s Oz front page” in the OP now has “Error on Page”. But I’m easily amused, of course. Do they ever have anything else on their front page? Of course, Fairfax is no better – Michael Jackson’s hair on fire! Oldest IVF Mum!!…etc.