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	<title>Comments on: Invest in ice-cream</title>
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	<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/07/14/invest-in-ice-cream/</link>
	<description>Life, Culture and Politics from BrisVegas</description>
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		<title>By: Fran Barlow</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/07/14/invest-in-ice-cream/#comment-145504</link>
		<dc:creator>Fran Barlow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 23:44:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=8961#comment-145504</guid>
		<description>The one thing I will add to this in parting Brian is the rather telling implication from John M that our chief sin here is &quot;attack[ing]people with views not the same as [y]ours&quot;. John M, like many of those attempting to defeat policy in this area, is trying to sneak in the idea that the fundamental science attached to climate change is simply a matter of opinion, which of course opens the door to everyone being respectful of &quot;both sides&quot; and having &quot;balance&quot; in the discussion.

This of course is poppycock. Neither the interaction of CO2 molecules with infra red radiation, nor the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere, its provenance or the data from instrumental records about temperature are matters of anyone&#039;s point of view, but of observation, and no view one could have about them could alter any part of that a jot. They are what they are.

The denier position has never involved an attempt to mount a competing theory of the drivers of the post-1850 temperature anomaly to that of mainstream science and this failure reflects more than the mere empirical and scientific challenges of such a project. Rather, it reflects the reality that what they are bothered about are the implications for public policy. They don&#039;t need to show that the science is wrong. Most of the people about whose opinions politicians are bothered would be hard pressed explaining it anyway, so the exercise would be massively wasteful of resources. What the opponents of policy need are a set of scientistic slogans that can be repeated by those parts of the populace who don&#039;t want their basic desire for their corners of the world to stay as they are to sound selfish or reckless. They need noises that can be uttered on cue by armies of gun toting backwoods orcs and christian fundies can repeat on cue. And for that they don&#039;t need science. They don&#039;t need the objections to even be consistent. They just need frivolous doubt rebranded as &quot;skepticism&quot;.

&quot;Doubt is our product&quot; as the tobacco lobbyists (some of whom are running this campaign) used to say. Spread doubt about the science and then everyone who hates elites, everyone who is jealous of those more accomplished or has a self-esteem problem or feels marginalised can become an ally. In most countries, but in the US especially, that is a hell of a lot of people. Adduce visceral hatred for elites, for government, for &quot;ivory tower&quot; academics, &quot;bureaucrats&quot; and so forth and suddenly James Hansen can become science&#039;s Bernie Madoff, and Al Gore the Madoff of politics. The elites currently alienating the commons can posture as friends of people living in trailer parks and driving F100 pick-up trucks who sound like extras from Petticoat Junction. It&#039;s &#039;Mr Smith Goes to Washington&#039; writ large.

Let there be no mistake: this is a cleverly structured campaign being run by the world&#039;s filth merchants to hide their persistent theft from the commons behind the populist banner of cultural authenticity. And they don&#039;t need to be 100% successful. They just need to whiteant and delay by keeping people in doubt, by implying that there is some debate to be had about the fundamental science so that fear of change can function as their ally.

We must not allow them to get away this. No important judgement made by individuals or communities can call absolute certainty on all conceivable relevant matters to its side. Every rational act of individual or collective policy (including those that turn out to be flawed) is the result of well-tutored inference, because there is nothing better and no better way of discovering what &quot;better still&quot; might entail.

So it is too with policy here. We know plenty enough to know what elements good mitigation policy must contain and we are bound to follw it event as we acknowledge that uncertainties about the precise effectiveness of our measures and the interplay of these with dynamic elements in the biosphere remain. To refrain from acting would be irredeemably reckless.


Fran</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The one thing I will add to this in parting Brian is the rather telling implication from John M that our chief sin here is &#8220;attack[ing]people with views not the same as [y]ours&#8221;. John M, like many of those attempting to defeat policy in this area, is trying to sneak in the idea that the fundamental science attached to climate change is simply a matter of opinion, which of course opens the door to everyone being respectful of &#8220;both sides&#8221; and having &#8220;balance&#8221; in the discussion.</p>
<p>This of course is poppycock. Neither the interaction of CO2 molecules with infra red radiation, nor the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere, its provenance or the data from instrumental records about temperature are matters of anyone&#8217;s point of view, but of observation, and no view one could have about them could alter any part of that a jot. They are what they are.</p>
<p>The denier position has never involved an attempt to mount a competing theory of the drivers of the post-1850 temperature anomaly to that of mainstream science and this failure reflects more than the mere empirical and scientific challenges of such a project. Rather, it reflects the reality that what they are bothered about are the implications for public policy. They don&#8217;t need to show that the science is wrong. Most of the people about whose opinions politicians are bothered would be hard pressed explaining it anyway, so the exercise would be massively wasteful of resources. What the opponents of policy need are a set of scientistic slogans that can be repeated by those parts of the populace who don&#8217;t want their basic desire for their corners of the world to stay as they are to sound selfish or reckless. They need noises that can be uttered on cue by armies of gun toting backwoods orcs and christian fundies can repeat on cue. And for that they don&#8217;t need science. They don&#8217;t need the objections to even be consistent. They just need frivolous doubt rebranded as &#8220;skepticism&#8221;.</p>
<p>&#8220;Doubt is our product&#8221; as the tobacco lobbyists (some of whom are running this campaign) used to say. Spread doubt about the science and then everyone who hates elites, everyone who is jealous of those more accomplished or has a self-esteem problem or feels marginalised can become an ally. In most countries, but in the US especially, that is a hell of a lot of people. Adduce visceral hatred for elites, for government, for &#8220;ivory tower&#8221; academics, &#8220;bureaucrats&#8221; and so forth and suddenly James Hansen can become science&#8217;s Bernie Madoff, and Al Gore the Madoff of politics. The elites currently alienating the commons can posture as friends of people living in trailer parks and driving F100 pick-up trucks who sound like extras from Petticoat Junction. It&#8217;s &#8216;Mr Smith Goes to Washington&#8217; writ large.</p>
<p>Let there be no mistake: this is a cleverly structured campaign being run by the world&#8217;s filth merchants to hide their persistent theft from the commons behind the populist banner of cultural authenticity. And they don&#8217;t need to be 100% successful. They just need to whiteant and delay by keeping people in doubt, by implying that there is some debate to be had about the fundamental science so that fear of change can function as their ally.</p>
<p>We must not allow them to get away this. No important judgement made by individuals or communities can call absolute certainty on all conceivable relevant matters to its side. Every rational act of individual or collective policy (including those that turn out to be flawed) is the result of well-tutored inference, because there is nothing better and no better way of discovering what &#8220;better still&#8221; might entail.</p>
<p>So it is too with policy here. We know plenty enough to know what elements good mitigation policy must contain and we are bound to follw it event as we acknowledge that uncertainties about the precise effectiveness of our measures and the interplay of these with dynamic elements in the biosphere remain. To refrain from acting would be irredeemably reckless.</p>
<p>Fran</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/07/14/invest-in-ice-cream/#comment-145503</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 10:24:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=8961#comment-145503</guid>
		<description>John M, I suspect that you won&#039;t get the answers to your questions because to do so would upset your mindset and take you out of your comfort zone, so perhaps &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this applies.&lt;/a&gt;

It&#039;s a tendency that everyone has, some (most) don&#039;t recognize it as applying to them.

But really, I don&#039;t know better than you do how you think, not necessarily, it&#039;s just something you should reflect about, if you haven&#039;t already. And if you have, perhaps time to reflect again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John M, I suspect that you won&#8217;t get the answers to your questions because to do so would upset your mindset and take you out of your comfort zone, so perhaps <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias" rel="nofollow">this applies.</a></p>
<p>It&#8217;s a tendency that everyone has, some (most) don&#8217;t recognize it as applying to them.</p>
<p>But really, I don&#8217;t know better than you do how you think, not necessarily, it&#8217;s just something you should reflect about, if you haven&#8217;t already. And if you have, perhaps time to reflect again.</p>
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		<title>By: John Michelmore</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/07/14/invest-in-ice-cream/#comment-145502</link>
		<dc:creator>John Michelmore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 08:30:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=8961#comment-145502</guid>
		<description>Thanks Brian,
             But I haven&#039;t seen any evidence the statistically, scientifically proves manmade carbon dioxide emmissions are related to global warming (or climate change). Not sure the dog and ball (or bone) routine applies.
             Look forward to your future post, and the answer to my questions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Brian,<br />
             But I haven&#8217;t seen any evidence the statistically, scientifically proves manmade carbon dioxide emmissions are related to global warming (or climate change). Not sure the dog and ball (or bone) routine applies.<br />
             Look forward to your future post, and the answer to my questions.</p>
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		<title>By: Fran Barlow</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/07/14/invest-in-ice-cream/#comment-145501</link>
		<dc:creator>Fran Barlow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 06:31:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=8961#comment-145501</guid>
		<description>Glad you liked them fb@89.

In formal written texts the learned is most common both for the past definite and for the past participle. &quot;Learnt&quot; is more common in written transcription of informal vernacular.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Glad you liked them fb@89.</p>
<p>In formal written texts the learned is most common both for the past definite and for the past participle. &#8220;Learnt&#8221; is more common in written transcription of informal vernacular.</p>
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		<title>By: furious balancing</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/07/14/invest-in-ice-cream/#comment-145500</link>
		<dc:creator>furious balancing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 06:14:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=8961#comment-145500</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t mind the John Michelmores of this world, I learnt [learned??..why is the english language so obtuse???] quite a lot from Fran Barlow&#039;s posts above, thanks Fran, those links were very interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t mind the John Michelmores of this world, I learnt [learned??..why is the english language so obtuse???] quite a lot from Fran Barlow&#8217;s posts above, thanks Fran, those links were very interesting.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/07/14/invest-in-ice-cream/#comment-145499</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 02:41:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=8961#comment-145499</guid>
		<description>John M, of course he can. The best analogy of what you&#039;re doing here is &lt;a href=&quot;http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/06/09/senator-fieldings-questions-and-doubt-on-climate-change/#comment-775131&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the dog Hannah and her ball.&lt;/a&gt;

I suggest you look up the latest findings on climate sensitivity, but I&#039;m not going to bother finding the links for you. It will come up in a post I plan to do soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John M, of course he can. The best analogy of what you&#8217;re doing here is <a href="http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/06/09/senator-fieldings-questions-and-doubt-on-climate-change/#comment-775131" rel="nofollow">the dog Hannah and her ball.</a></p>
<p>I suggest you look up the latest findings on climate sensitivity, but I&#8217;m not going to bother finding the links for you. It will come up in a post I plan to do soon.</p>
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		<title>By: John Michelmore</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/07/14/invest-in-ice-cream/#comment-145498</link>
		<dc:creator>John Michelmore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jul 2009 23:16:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=8961#comment-145498</guid>
		<description>Thanks Robert,
              I see you can&#039;t answer the question either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Robert,<br />
              I see you can&#8217;t answer the question either.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Merkel</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/07/14/invest-in-ice-cream/#comment-145497</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Merkel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jul 2009 12:27:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=8961#comment-145497</guid>
		<description>Yawn.

Please don&#039;t feed the denialists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yawn.</p>
<p>Please don&#8217;t feed the denialists.</p>
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		<title>By: John Michelmore</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/07/14/invest-in-ice-cream/#comment-145496</link>
		<dc:creator>John Michelmore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jul 2009 10:05:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=8961#comment-145496</guid>
		<description>David and Fran,
              Thankyou again for your attack on the people with views not the same as yours.
               I&#039;ll ask the question again. Why is there not a statistical relationship between global temperatures and atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations? If this relationship isn&#039;t statistically proven, how is controlling the carbon dioxide in the atmosphere going to change the global temperature?
               I&#039;ll await your responses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David and Fran,<br />
              Thankyou again for your attack on the people with views not the same as yours.<br />
               I&#8217;ll ask the question again. Why is there not a statistical relationship between global temperatures and atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations? If this relationship isn&#8217;t statistically proven, how is controlling the carbon dioxide in the atmosphere going to change the global temperature?<br />
               I&#8217;ll await your responses.</p>
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		<title>By: David Irving (no relation)</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/07/14/invest-in-ice-cream/#comment-145495</link>
		<dc:creator>David Irving (no relation)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jul 2009 08:53:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=8961#comment-145495</guid>
		<description>The funniest thing about John Michelmore, Fran, is that he thinks he&#039;s found something new, that upends all of physics and chemistry completely (a new Galileo!!!!1111!!!11!!!), rather than some tired old bullshit that&#039;s been debunked again and again and again and again ...

John, inform yourself. Trot over to deltoid, Real Climate, or Brave New Climate and learn about what the scientists say, not what a bunch of emeritus oil geologists are fantasizing about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The funniest thing about John Michelmore, Fran, is that he thinks he&#8217;s found something new, that upends all of physics and chemistry completely (a new Galileo!!!!1111!!!11!!!), rather than some tired old bullshit that&#8217;s been debunked again and again and again and again &#8230;</p>
<p>John, inform yourself. Trot over to deltoid, Real Climate, or Brave New Climate and learn about what the scientists say, not what a bunch of emeritus oil geologists are fantasizing about.</p>
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