It’s all over the news, of course. A number of people have been arrested in a joint operation by the AFP, Victoria and NSW state police, with the cooperation of ASIO:
Police allege a suicide terrorist plot had been formed to enter military barracks in Australia with semi-automatic weapons and carry out a sustained attack on military personnel.
The four men, who are Australian citizens of Somali and Lebanese descent, were arrested in a joint counter-terrorism operation in Melbourne this morning.
AFP acting Chief Commissioner Tony Negus says if the attack had been carried out, it would have been the most serious terrorist act on Australian soil.
There are of course a number of questions to come out of these events. The first is how in the heck The Australian got such detailed and prompt coverage of the story, to the annoyance of Victorian Police Commissioner Simon Overland, who stated that:
“It’s had the potential to place my staff and the staff of the AFP and other agencies involved at some risk,” he said.
“The fact that this was made public before the warrants were issued is an obvious concern, that the story was leaked is an obvious concern.
“That’s clearly a problem that we’ve got and we have to acknowledge that and we have to deal with that. But I think that I am particularly concerned about anything that puts my members or other law enforcement officers’ lives at risk.”
The Australian has responded here.
The second question that comes to mind is whether McLelland’s recent comments on changes to terrorism laws were at all inspired by the circumstances surrounding this case.
The Australian claims to have known about these raids a week ago. If the police (could be Feds or Vic) are leaking about planned arrests of suspected terrorists, that is very disturbing.
As for the alleged plot and plotters, that is also disturbing. Who are these people?
They’ve finally got Bush, Blair and Howard!?
What? Oh…
Took the words out of my mouth, Sam. I love it how the Oz acts like know a week in advance is somehow a good thing.
Keelty may have resigned, but his leaky legacy lives on, sadly. There should be inquiries about this kind of stuff – it was wrong with Haneef, and it’s wrong here.
Sam, the Oz has some very detailed coverage.
One thing that will be interesting to see if and when this comes to trial is how advanced these individuals were in their plotting. The kind of weapons they were seeking are not exactly easy to obtain in Australia, and smuggling them in themselves requires some level of sophistication.
Stand by for the Oz’s interview tomorrow with Bill Bloggs of the AFP, now sharing a room with Godwin Grech…
Sam @ 1 asked:
Buddhists, I think.
The Australian had the story well before the raid and would have had to prepare for its publication on whatever date agreed. What is unclear is how many of the Australian staff had access to this information and how widely they may have disseminated it. After watching Kevin Rudd’s press statement earlier today, my impression was that it is possible that The Australian was advised of the timing of the raid before the Prime Minister. I may have gained the wrong impression, but if true it presents an extremely serious state of affairs.
Sm @1 – “Who are these people?”
Well, they’re not effing Methodists.
Reminds us that crazy beliefs can sometimes inspire evil actions. Hopefully the birthers won’t take direct action against the traitorous false President.
Peter @ 7 and Razor @ 8, if Buddhists happened to live on top of substantial reserves of oil I’m sure Western states would be storming temples, monastries and pagoda’s with gay abandon and we’d be hearing all about the evils of women forced to shave their heads!
That said, with regards to the OO’s coverage, it’s good to remember that none of the allegations or the evidence have actually been tested in a court of law yet.
We all know what has happened to AFP evidence in terrorism trials when it’s been subject to detailed scrutiny…
It’s a mixed bag. On the one hand, there’s the innocent Dr Haneef. On the other hand, there’s this lot.
Agreed, Sam. But the point I was trying to make is that, even more than is generally the case, judgments are premature until evidence actually gets put before a court.
Chav @ 10 – please give evidence where “Western states” are storming Mosques with gat abandon because of oil. Not too much oil in Afghanistan last time I looked, or Bosnia, or Kosovo.
Razor, Afghanistan occupies of place of strategic importance in an area brimming with oil and gas reserves. What half-way decent superpower could say no? Not many if a brief glance at the country’s history is anything to go by.
As for Bosnia and Kosovo, how better else to keep in check an uppity regional power that refused to privatise and neoliberalise itself into oblivion?
But to the case in hand, isn’t the Al Shabaab organisation the armed wing of the Islamic Courts Union, which in turn is fighting the US assisted Ethiopian invasion of their country..?
Not too much oil in poor old Somalia last time I looked.
Razor, Somalia and the Horn of Africa are located next to the sea-lanes linking the oilfields of the Persian Gulf with the Red Sea, the Gulf of Aden and the Indian Ocean. As such they were very popular with both the US and and Russians during the cold war.
9/11 was an inside job and the Moon Landings were faked – give me the inside please, please.
This is getting well offtopic.
Hey Chav – was Oswald a CIA stooge? Really, you seem to be across all the US inside stuff and I’d love to know.
“Not too much oil in poor old Somalia last time I looked.”
Mind you, last time you looked there was only one language spoken in Australia.
Razor, wtf are you talking about? That Somalia is in a strategic location to these sea routes is perfectly obvious if you look at a map.
Now, let’s talk about your “birther” buddies…
Trying to draw this mini-trainwreck back onto topic: Somalia’s proximity to sea lanes does not explain in any significant way why an Australian citizen of Lebanese descent living in Melbourne would want to attack a suburban barracks in Sydney.
I heard an army person from Melbourne ring up on talk back radio this morning explaining that an attack on the local bases would not be met with much resistance as no staff are armed. Except for the Chubb security guards at the front gate.
Nice to know that everything is being done to stay alert to the threats, eh?
Allow me to put in my 2 bit comments.
Being from European decent and now a proud Australian citizen with a huge amount of life experience I like to make the following comments on Terrorism.
The world is overrun with Moslem fundamentalists like a pandemic and is spreading like wildfire throughout the world.!
The arrests today of the Somalian suspect terrorists, could very well be the beginning of an unstopable surge in Moslem fundamentalistic unrest in this country.
In Europe there is ample evidence that this is the case and I think that Australians are wise to ensure their own safety reporting anything suspicious from those type of individuals to the authorities immidiately.
It is high time to be vigilant as complacency might get you killed.
In Europe there is ample evidence that this is the case and I think that Australians are wise to ensure their own safety reporting anything suspicious from those type of individuals to the authorities immidiately.
No, based on my observations, I think Europe has a bigger problem with dodgy kebabs.
Liam @23: “Australian citizen of Lebanese descent living in Melbourne would want to attack a suburban barracks in Sydney”
Maybe some mullah messed with his head, and pursuaded him that those army chaps were going to kill some of his muslim brothers over in Afghanistan, etc? Always helps to only see one side of the story – makes hardline decisions much simpler.
Chav @15: “Afghanistan occupies of place of strategic importance in an area brimming with oil and gas reserves. What half-way decent superpower could say no?”
I heard that theory too.
What could be simpler hey? Sneak into the other “…stans” by the back door, over god forsaken deserts and impassable mountains, not least guarded by fierce locals. A doddle really. Then build an oil pipeline through a newly “free and democratic” Afghanistan, so you don’t have to run the guantlet of the Suez canal. Another doddle…?
Well then, why wait for the exclamation mark? Trying to lull us into complacency, eh? I declare you an enemy incombatant, intent on spreading leisure when what is required is nothing short of unstinting vigilance!!!
Had a chat to a mate of mines missus.She was dating hima few years back when he was at Pukka. Apparently they could walk through the gates straight into the barracks. Nice to know not much has changed since the late 90′s…
And yes the guns are all locked up, shadows of islawanda if it was a real plot.
Isn’t this all a bit timely, coming just after McClelland going on about new, tougher anti-terror laws?
I agree with Liam @23: WHY exactly would Lebanese/Somali immigrants, possibly not yet armed, be plotting to stage a suicide attack on a low-security, not-very-strategic barracks in a country that has only the most minimal relevance to either Lebanon or Somalia? And discuss it LOTS in earshot of their ASIO tails?
And why would ASIO/AFP/whoever make damn sure that Limited News’s national flagship, the Opposition Orifice, got leaked the juicy details well ahead of any action taken?
The whole thing sounds like a stage-managed, made-up collage of buzzwords and charades, to spook the impressionable into screaming for TOUGHER ANTI-TERROR LAWS!!!!
Screw that. Let’s have some common sense, please.
Well if this all turns out to be cosher (hehe), then I do hope it turns out the initial information which convicts them comes from their own communities. Its not out of the question that one of the Imams they approached to give sanction to the attack (Im going of what the papers report) may have been the one to alert the police.
IF thats the case then its a good thing, it shows the beardy weirdy fanatics they dont have a safe haven in their own communities. I realy, realy hope (if it all turns out legitimate) thats what happened.
Yes, if only we’d had tougher laws, we would have been able to catch them before they carried out the attack! Oh wait…
Is that praise there, desipis, for the anti-terror laws passed by the Howard government and roundly condemned here at LP?
The Vic police commissioner complained on the ABC tonight about the Oz putting his people at risk by writing about the raids that were going to happen today! One wonders whether the editor of the Oz will be charged for what appears to be a blatent breach of security that may have put lives at risk. If you think this comment is a bit over the top, the second paragraph on the front page of the OZ today read:
Wonder who will be asked to find out who leaked this high security info to the Oz. Makes the Grech case look like small cheese.
Isn’t this all a bit timely, coming just after McClelland going on about new, tougher anti-terror laws?
Don’t be silly, andyc. You’re getting the flow of causality confused. McClelland undoubtedly wants the tougher laws because he was made aware of this investigation, not the other way around.
By all accounts this was a huge investigation, with over 100 spooks and cops deployed, from a variety of agencies, working for months. If you think this is the sort of thing that could be set in motion purely for some conspiratorial political agenda, you just demonstrate that you don’t have the foggiest how government really operates.
Whether or not there is enough evidence to sustain convictions, remains to be seen. But let’s leave the loopy conspiracy theories at the door, mkay?
What section of what Act do you think would be appropriate for the charge, John D?
Like the emissions from the Oppositional Orifice?
OK, Tough-On-Terror Fans.
Let’s give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that this round-up is completely kosher and justified.
In which case, the main Tough New Power that the security services need is not the power to unaccountably harrass civilians for gathering, demonstrating, writing stuff, taking photographs, having dangerously dark skin, wearing weird clothes, speaking unAustralian, looking at the wrong WWW sites or all those other scary things. No. The most important Tough New Power for the security services is:
Learning to keep your own bloody lips buttoned until after the operation has gone off OK.
The leakage to the OO makes this look severely like a contrived media stunt. I small many rancid old fish, and am looking forward to hearing more about what was really going down.
As I suggested in the original post, existing laws would seem entirely adequate if people were actively conspiring to murder a bunch of soldiers (or anyone else).
If I may indulge in speculation, what McLelland may be angling at – assuming there is a direct connection to the raids – is that there are others who may have inspired the alleged plotters to violence who nevertheless had no direct involvement or knowledge of the plot itself.
As noted on the previous thread in this comment, it’s still not at all clear why in such a case the existing laws against incitement to commit criminal offences is not sufficient.
Incidentally, I don’t resile from anything I said on the previous thread, either. Terrorism is still a piddling threat.
Andy at comment #23, I’m not entirely sure whether I agree with myself, if you’re making my argument for me. I don’t buy it as a conspiracy any way, yet, either as a AFP power grab in the Attorney-General’s Department via the senior ranks of The Australian (eh?), a cynical hydrocarbon land grab starting in Colac (double eh?) or as another strike in a Mohammedan global fundie Ummah-mao-mao pow-wow (oh yeah). I’m keen at this stage to see a bunch of bored blokes with big, stupid dreams.
As Sideshow Bazarov argued a while ago, the classical motivation of “shits ‘n’ giggles” is highly underrated as a coherent political cause for blowin’ stuff up.
Incidentally, the Holsworthy Army barracks does hold historic value as the site of some of Australia’s most religiously-motivated, lifestyle-controlling, Sharia-style laws.
In 1916, a violent riot started by drunk soldiers on leave from the Casula and Liverpool camps attached to the Holsworthy camp ended in the taking over of a train, the shooting deaths of two at Central Station (IIRC), popular condemnation and the introduction of six o’clock closing across the State, not lifted for half a century or more.
If you want to find someone to blame for illiberal anti-alcohol intolerance in Australian history, thank the ANZACs. Bizarrely enough.
Thanks for 41 Liam. Before drininking laws were relaxed, some of the blame for restrictions was put on Effing Methodists, wowsers, teetotallers and “straighteners”. This by the half-educated it would seem.
Drunken soldiers eh? You’re not taking the piss….
Commonwealth Criminal Code.
101.6 Other acts done in preparation for, or planning, terrorist acts
(1) A person commits an offence if the person does any act in preparation for, or planning, a terrorist act.Penalty: Imprisonment for life.
(2) A person commits an offence under subsection (1) even if:(a)a terrorist act does not occur; or
(b) the person’s act is not done in preparation for, or planning, a specific terrorist act; or…
Imagine this. A new Sexual Offences (Planning) Act 2009 NSW
(1) A person commits an offence if the person does any act in preparation for, or planning, a sexual assault.Penalty: x years
2) A person commits an offence under subsection (1) even if:(a) a sexual assault does not occur; or
(b) the person’s act is not done in preparation for, or planning, a specific sexual assault.
Three drunken yobbos in a pub start yakking about getting Miss Y pissed pursuant to possible said assault by Yobbo 1. Yobbo 2 says, “She’s ‘laced mutton’, here’s a condom”. Yobbo 3 says while Yobbo 1 is in the toilet, “He’s as thick as 2 short planks, so I’ll draw a diagram of a vagina for him.”
Yobbo 1 comes back to announce that his fundamental appendage has dropped off due to some new strain of cock rot. Yobbo 2 says “Keep the franger, you might get lucky next time, with a transplanted appendage.”
Discuss the liability of Yobbos 1, 2 and 3 under the new Act.
Doctor X, knowing having heard Yobbo 1 say that there’s no such thing as rape but that it is “sex with persuasion” transplants a new appendage.
What’s his liability under the new Act?
And and I forgot, Yobbo 4, who has remained silent but listened to the conversation, goes and buys Miss Y a drink.
Maybe it’s too early to be making light of this threat, but still.
You are a Somali-Australian would-be terrorist and have decided to perform jihad in your new country. Do you:
a) Attack a soft target, like the Bali bombers?
b) Attack a soft target, like the Jakarta bombers?
c) Attack a soft target, like the London bombers?
d) Attack a soft target, like the Spanish bombers?
e) Attack a soft target, like the 9/11 pilots?
or
f) Plan to attack the HQ of Australia’s battle-hardened anti-terrorist special forces?
Well put Jacques.
The calibre of our homegrown terrorist wannabes has been pretty small. Enough to make you feel cultural cringe.
Ds nyn knw nythng bt th Mslm fth? D y knw tht grls r dscrgd nd ys frbddn t fllw n dctn? tht th r nl thr t br chldrn? Tht whn th hv cmmttd crm nd sntncd t dth th r frst rpd nd r mrrd t sm strngr bfr th r pt t dth, bcs th Krn sys tht vrgn cnnt b pt t dth!! Ths r fcts!!! s rpn y tr t mrr Mslm grl, y hv bt s mch chnc s wnnng th lttr. Mslms hwvr cn nd wll mrr rpn grls llthgh th hv wvs n thr rspctv cntrs!! Ths r Fcts! mslm grl wh s nt vrgn whn sh gts mrrd wll b mrdrd b hr wn fthr!! Ths s Fct!!
[Moderator note: wildly provocative assertions get disemvoweled ~ tigtog]
Jacques: See portrait of the modern terrorist as an idiot.
Obviously, too little information to be sure, but what we do know so far isn’t inconsistent with such a hypothesis.
“Does anyone know anything about the Moslem faith?”
In your case Adelain, that is not rhetorical question is it? Unlike this one.
Also a handy tip for your future career as a blogosphere pundit. It helps to assemble your comments after you take ‘em out of the box.
I’m sure the headscarf-wearing students I see around my university every day would be fascinated by your insights.
Jacques: yes that puzzled me too. But if the plan was as the papers are saying, it was still (to be) a terrorist attack.
Thanks for that link Robert. My cultural cringe is starting to fade.
Though interesting to note that one of the few terrorist movements in modern times that actually forced its opponents to the negotiating table was run by a ethnic/cultural grouping consistently mocked for its lack of intellect – the Irish.
I offer without comment this statement tendered in the Melbourne Magistrates’ Court over this matter.
“”Can you give me the address of Australia and name of train station,” another text allegedly said.”
Nabakov @52: “ethnic/cultural grouping consistently mocked for its lack of intellect – the Irish.”
But they have won several Nobel prizes for literature, and rather a lot of Eurovision song contests…
Doesn’t count, you say?
“Doesn’t count, you say?”
Huh? Why do you think “consistently mocked for its lack of intellect” is my personal opinion?
“And and I forgot, Yobbo 4, who has remained silent but listened to the conversation, goes and buys Miss Y a drink.”
Aha! I think I’ve spotted the AFP informant in your witty scenario Pete.
Nabakov @55, twas a generic “you”, Nabakov, not a specific “you”. A weakness in the english language.
Never mind. It wasn’t intended to be taken seriously.
The truth is, I don’t really understand terrorism, except perhaps as a desperate angry measure by people who have pursuaded themselves that there is no hope and no other way.
Violence and terrorism seems to correlate with countries with extremely low GDP/head. Not being a social scientist or psychologist, I wouldn’t know what begets what in the correlation – is it the chicken or the egg that comes first?
Anyway, returning to your comment about terrorism and the Irish. Ireland used to be one of the poorest countries in the EU, as I understand it. Ireland became disgracefully well off in the last decade or so, and the terrorism went into remission. Just recently, the GFC hit Ireland very hard, apparently. What do you know – the violence has re-emerged. Coincidence, or something more?
joe2 @ 21 – I never said English is the only language ( I pride myself in my poor French and school boy German). English is the generally regarded as the main language unless I’m living in a hermetically sealed bubble.
Others have already mentioned this, but in the unlikely event that these terrorists had actually succeeded in their plan, they could have done a lot of damage. Not only are the guns locked up in a bloody big safe, and you have to get one of the Chubb guards to open it, but the bullets, as a rule, are somewhere else entirely. Wodonga, maybe.
one of the few terrorist movements in modern times that actually forced its opponents to the negotiating table was run by a ethnic/cultural grouping consistently mocked for its lack of intellect – the Irish.
Yes, collective memory is short. To read the wingnuttosphere you’d think it was some kind of scientific rule that to be a terrorist one must also be a muslim, or at least a brown person. The pasty-faced IRA was the face of terrorist bombing in the last century, as I well remember.
#43 Peter Kemp Aug 4th, 2009 at 10:05 pm
As broad as possible, I hope.
The law is a cultural control system, not an under-graduate philosophy tute. Agents of the law sometimes need extra-ordinary powers to deal with special cases. Such special hard cases make bad general law. The speed camera road law, which more or less presumes guilt, are an obvious case.
The new form of terrorism, bred under the Left-liberal cultural hothouse conditions, is home-grown. That means that the best way to nip it in the bud is to “send a message” to the breeder communities.
I assume the idea behind these catch-all legislative instruments is to encourage family members and friends to give the would-be terrorists up, or face punishment on the grounds of being knowing accomplices or just shoulda-known-betters.
A little bit draconian I grant, shades of Stalinist collective punishment. But on the whole a good idea.
Your typical would-be terrorist these days is home-grown rather than a commando-style foreign raider. So they emerge from a community network, some of whom are more or less sympathetic to their aims (“fishes in the sea”).
Its important that the members of such communities feel the cold breath of the Law on their necks. The waverers are the ones who will likely buckle under pressure and give up their nuttier brethren.
The more general take-home message for AUS is that this event is another nail in the coffin for Left-liberal civic policies:
a) the stringent and draconian anti-terror laws seem to be doing their job
b) multiculturalism as an immigrant settlement philosophy is a “dead man walking” (cf UK).
c) knee-jerk legal-liberals will continue to prattle on about rights as if nothing has happened, long after the mainstream community has turned off.
[exits stage to stony silence]
greg,
No, I’m pointing out the fallacy in using caught terrorists to illustrate that the current terrorism laws aren’t tough enough to catch terrorists. It’s a step worse that pointing out the lack of terrorist attacks as evidence that the Howard terrorism laws are “working”.
“Wonder who will be asked to find out who leaked this high security info to the Oz. Makes the Grech case look like small cheese.”
The privileges provided to the OZ & other Murdoch-related entities by certain Fed & State govt. officials are a disgrace. I’m also sick & tired of seeing the ABC kowtow to this lot…talk about free advertising.
Not surprising that Grech, seemingly a compulsive leaker & biased to the point of stupidity & despicable behaviour as a public servant, was given access exclusively to the OZ. Musta felt like HOME.
Government of the wealthy, by the corporations, for the privileged.
N’
Further to what I said @ 34, this mornings Australian states that the first three editions yesterday did not mention the raid and the timing of the release of the information meant nothing would have come out before the raids at 4.30 AM. However, Vic police comissioner still believes the information was on the streets at 1.30 AM and that an investigation has been requested.
DEspite the Australian’s claims, there should still be serious concern about the risk the information leaking with potentially serious consequences. The whole issue still needs serious investigation.
Thought you wouldn’t be far away Nabs, but you’re right. Yobbo 4′s testimony sinks Yobbo 1, 2,and 3 at trial. New amendments are made to the Act making all condom vendors mandatory reporters with access to DOCS data bases; all books with pictures of female genitalia* are declared illegal as potentially providing material assistance to sex offenders.
(Yobbo 3 gets 2 years off his sentence for helping police and Senator Conroy develop Vagina Recognition Software for internet filters.)
(*exemptions apply to Doctors and celebate clergy)
Lol ok Jack =D
Its important that the members of such communities feel the cold breath of the Law on their necks. The waverers are the ones who will likely buckle under pressure and give up their nuttier brethren.
Re: point A – If anything the experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan have shown the failure of Suppression style CT approaches. The Criminalisation approach you seem to push here is better but still fails to address the causes and is therefore an imperfect solution.
How about we try some Accomodation instead and actually address some of the underlying political issues that lead to these events? Or even better an hybrid model?
As for your Point B – All cultures and societies are multicultural. There is no such thing as a monoculture. It’s the suppression of cultures and insisting people adhere to a fake dominant monoculture that contributes to the alienation and dissatisfaction that initiates the ‘becoming a terrorit’ process. Look at France.
C – huh what? Think you’re still refering to Criminalisation CT approaches here.
Oops forgot the quotes on 1st para
“DEspite the Australian’s claims, there should still be serious concern about the risk the information leaking with potentially serious consequences. The whole issue still needs serious investigation.”
I couldn’t agree more John D. Lives were potentially put at risk. And perhaps the entire operation. Accountability must stretch beyond the public service and the occasionally media/ACCC/politically targetted business.
How did The OZ learn of this operation in the first place? Long before the operation it seems.
N’
“The new form of terrorism, bred under the Left-liberal cultural hothouse conditions, is home-grown.”
Nothing to do with the War on Terror and the other half of Australia’s ‘special relationship’ participating in the Ethiopian invasion of Somalia (the home of Al Shabaab) and refusing to condemn Israel’s rampage through Lebanon in 2006?
#69 Chav Aug 5th, 2009 at 11:19 am
So this is how democracy works under hard-core multiculturalism. The democratic govt foreign policy is now hostage to nut-cases in the various expat communities.
Bomb your new hosts, thats the way to celebrate diversity.
Personally I yearn for the day when this country has nothing more to do with the nutso states that line the fringes of southern Eurasia and northern Africa. I feel sorry for Israel, but they have made their bed in those lands and now they have to lie in it.
I am more concerned with how this country manages the 400,000 immigrants from all quarters of the globe streaming across its borders year in, year out. How many are angry young men with limited prospects for jobs and mates?
I want the govt to know about such things, and more over let the subjects know that it knows, in a more or less heavy-handed way.
This episode confirms that the Left-liberal rights agenda is pretty much exhausted.
Time to talk of civic duties.
Reminded of the Perth neo-Nazis of the 1990s.
As always, Jack, magnificent. Bravo!
That was the ’80s, Geoff. They were in jail for most of the ’90s.
“exits stage to stony silence” – Jack S
No, just the usual bewildered silence at Jacks stream-of-consciousness prattle, which is essentially the same post he’s been sticking up here or at JQ’s for years, irrespective of the actual topic of discussion.
#74 Michael Aug 5th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
Actually there are a few more tracks on my LP record. F’instance theres the one about the disgraceful shambles a generation of Left-liberalism has left in the administration of indigenous affairs. That always draws a hectic crowd, for better or worse.
This rampant anomie became a breeding ground for the kind of alienated youth that, under different ideological conditions, become terrorists. Hence the astronomical crime rates for indigenous males.
People like Michael seem to be part of a Culture of Denial about this.
Fortunately Howard-L/NP moved into restore some adult supervisions. Some professional activists, Ab-bureaucrats and Big Men are some-what put out. They are part of the problem, not the solution.
So thats a feature, not a bug, of the more authoritarian, and humane, new regime.
“left-liberalism” blal blah blah…….
Jack, why don’t you save yourself some time and just type “The usual”?
We’ll all know exactly what you mean.
Helen @ 60 – I demand you withdraw your assertion of the IRA (and by extension the Irish) as pasty faced we prefer ‘pink with white overtones’
Completely off topic but why is it still okay to make jokes about the Irish but not about most other groups?
As an ex soldier I can assert that the accused would have had an easy run (at least initially) through Holsworthy, not even the civilian guards are armed. We used to patrol with a big stick and as my corporal used to say “never bring a stick to a gun fight”
That’s right Michael. There’s nothing like an autodidact to tell you what’s what. After all, he’s been taught by the best — just ask him.
Thoese damned terrorist evildoers, hating us for for our freedoms.
However Jack has a cunning plan to fix that…
“A little bit draconian I grant, shades of Stalinist collective punishment. But on the whole a good idea.”
What job are they doing, Jack, that wasn’t already being done by the criminal law before they were introduced? What investigative powers have the police used, in this case, that they cound’t have used before the anti-terrorism laws were introduced? Yes, the accused men have been charged with an anti-terrorism offence, but the facts could equally ground a charge of conspiracy. So what, exactly, is the “job” that the anti-terrorism laws are doing?
Unless, of course, you mean the “job” of demonstrating that the governments introducing them are “tough on terror”.
I think that’s enough Strocchiana for one thread.
Sigh! Here’s the mysterious of the Name. It’s mysterious isn;t it that we’re always told it’s all about love and the way to express that love is by killing a lot of people!
.
And now Somalis are gonna cop shit from every bulbous rednose’d bigot in the country.
So true Tony D. You have nailed cause and effect perfectly and in doing so have identified those truly responsible for terrorism. The French!
One only has to look across the Channel to see how the vigorous pursuit of multiculturalism has, in vivid contrast to France, bestowed peace and tranquillity, and a complete absence of terrorist attacks, on Great Britain.
I will admit that there are some ignorant fools, like John Smeaton, who won’t get with the program and spoil it for the rest of us.
As to your point A.
I’m game if you are. But where do we begin? Their core political goal is that we submit to their faith and accept its tenets and the obligations entailed in adherence to it. I’m not sure that we are quite ready for that, so as you point out, accommodation may be the way to go. Some of their goals are pretty challenging though. I don’t think I’m quite ready for the stoning of homosexuals and adulterers (unless it was televised as part of a Reality TV show where I am sure it would find an appreciative audience- in fact it would be a dead cert ratings winner). Perhaps a halfway house would just be flogging them.
We could go from there. They do have a point on some women’s dress so I think an accommodation on that point could be made for a head to foot cover-up- Not a really big ask if we sold it under the Slip Slop Slap banner of avoiding UV readiation, although there might need to be a disclaimer about the last of the alliterative trio as it may unintentionally and unfairly conjure up images of domestic violence.
But you’re the full bottle on accommodation so you you must know what we must do to appease them. Tell us all what will actually address the underlying issues that lead to these events. You must have asked the perpetrators so tell us what they say will stop them from entering hotels and bars and restaurants and train stations and churches and schools and committing apparently random and wanton acts of murder, which of course we must not condemn for that would show us to be uncaring and insensitive.
We have had a good outcome. Some alleged baddies have been caught, nobody has been killed, the existing terrorist laws have been proved to be effective and the armed forces have been given a clear warning that they need to lift their basic security act and we have another demonstration of the dangers of privatization.
Best of all, the way the story broke creates the suspicion that this was staged as a dramatic put up job aimed at justifying even more draconian laws. (Ask yourself – Was it really necessary to mobilize 400 police to arrest a few young Somalis?)
By contrast, imagine the circus if a terrorist raid on holsworthy had managed to wound even one soldier. The press would have been screaming for tougher laws and the scalp of the prime minister. Worse still, we could kiss the charter of rights goodbye.
“Ask yourself – Was it really necessary to mobilize 400 police to arrest a few young Somalis?”
Well you’re talking around 20 coppers per search warrant served on people they were briefed could be be heavily armed and suicidal. Sounds pretty reasonable to me.
Paulus wrote
“But let’s leave the loopy conspiracy theories at the door, …”
I would like to see a conspiracy theory as loopy as the theory that a group waging an armed struggle in Somalia could expect to advance its cause by staging terrorist attacks in a country on the other side of the world that is not, at this point, even intervening in Somalia.
I can accept that a bunch of deluded fools in Australia might have been duped into believing that launching such an attack woould help the cause of fellow Muslimms in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine or Somalia, but who, precisely, put them up to it is not yet clear to me.
I would certainly like to see if any of the groups now fighting in Somalia claim reponsibility for this, and, if not, then I would like to see the hard evidence linking these people in this country to such a group.
One possibility to consider is that those accused of plotting the terrorist attack might have been put up to it by something equivalent to the infamous Proactive, Preemptive Operations Group (P2OG – not my choice of acronym by the way. Why not just PPOG?) set up in 2002. Some of the tactics to be used by the P2OG were described as:
Probably a more accurate way to view the brief of the P2OG would be to use groups of deluded patsies to stage terrorist acts such as the alleged terrorist attack that was supposedly thwarted in order to justify taking away even more of our democratic freedoms.
The brief of the P@
But dagget, you already have one. I’ve just folowed the link to your website and it turns out that you are a 9/11 Truther.You even accuse Noan Chomsky of being part of the cover-up. You can’t get any loopier than that.
I recall we had very similar problems with the first generation of Vietnamese boat people. Small numbers of them turned into disaffected yoof and went around in gangs nicking stuff and selling each other drugs. They had the good fortune not to be Muslims, of course, so they couldn’t possibly have been terrorists.
I’d be prepared to bet (although I was too young to remember it clearly) that we had similar problems with the first generations of reffos from Europe after WWII.
I do recall, though, that the existing criminal law was up to the task of dealing with it all.
I seem to recall reading in a history of the Snowy Mountains Scheme that violence between Croat and Serb wprkers was a bit of a problem. Particularly on Friday nights when they’d all had a skinful…
Oh, and Peter Kemp can f**k right off with his r*pe joke. What a tooly thing to put on a political/social blog like this one. Is LP a sleazy Mens club?
GregM: “..identified those truly responsible for terrorism. The French!”
Bahahhahaha! Damn Cheese-Eaters! I’m going to go eat Freedom Toast for breakfast now! And yes Greg, multiculturalism has its problems, no duh, everything does.
And as for accomodation/appeasement/whatever you want to call it… “Their core political goal is that we submit to their faith and accept its tenets and the obligations entailed in adherence to it.” … Sure, if you wanna believe that go for it. It’s wrong but you can believe it if you want. Their goals are largely local/regional. Or are you a Huntington groupie?
(Looks like, this time, I am the source of the misspelling of my own account as ‘dagget’. My apologies.)
I note GregM has avoided discussing the substance of my post or explaining why he considers the views of the 9/11 Truth Movement to be loopy.
My view that Noam Chomsky is, in fact, part of the US Government propaganda machine, rather than the outspoken opponent of US Government that he purports to be, and that most people, who know of him, believe him to be, is based upon the Chapter “Noam Chomsky and the gatekeepers of the left” in “Towers of Deception” (2006) by Barrie Zwicker, a former protege of Chomsky. You will find it online here.
Barrie Zwicker’s short YouTube presentation “The Shame of Noam Chomsky & left gatekeepers” which restates some of that chapter is also very revealing worth a look for those who have less time. It features footage of a talk by Noam Chomsky and a deconstruction by Zwicker.
—
Thanks, also, andyc (38, 38) for having talked some sense.
‘‘I understand now what Aborigines meant when they said their kids were stolen. We live in a system designed to take away our rights as a family. It is a system where a human becomes a commodity.’’
-Ibrahim Khayre, uncle of Yacqub Khayre
True dat, true dat…
Apologies for the broken link to the YouTube presentation. It is here. Another longer 45 minute broadcast, featuring Barrie Zwicker discussing Noam Chomsky is well worth a look. It is “Sacred cow Noam Chomsky gored by Barrie”.
The article on my own site to which GregM referred, is “Noam Chomsky, phony American dissident”.
Turn it up, Chav.
You mean comparing a 17 year old moving out voluntarily from their relative’s house to the systematic removal of Aboriginal children by force on the basis of race?
Or do you mean a relative blaming police and social workers for a child’s adult (alleged) crimes, and complaining that they failed not to abuse his rights by handing him back to relatives he didn’t want to stay with?
“It is a system where a human becomes a commodity.’’
True dat, true dat…
A word of friendly advice to Liam @ #72, Michael @ #74, Nabakov @ #79 and Tim Macknay @ #80: if you want to build a reputation for honesty you should try avoid disingenuous tactics such as selective quotation combined with the more simple-minded literalism. For those are are interested in not being conned a representative part of the comment, with excised part included, is appended below:
I suppose that I should have enabled irony alerts or placed “scare quotes” earlier, although I thought I was already laying it on rather thick with OTT words like “draconian” and “shades of Stalin”. As anyone with more than a glancing knowledge of the Great Terror would know Stalin would have indignantly rejected as a species of “bourgeois liberalism” a form of collective “punishment” that that merely threatened to charge active accomplices and the more passive “I-know-nothing” types with complicity in planning real acts of terrorism.
Hysterical Left-liberals need to get a grip. The sky is not going to fall in because a few malcontents are rounded up. Catch all legislative drag-nets are pretty common amongst law-enforcement agencies both over in the States (RICO) and in Sydney (ICAC and ACC) where close knit communities tend to be involved in criminal conspiracies.
The sweeping Anti-Terror laws appear to be applying the same strategy to home-grown terrorist. The idea is that you lean on small-fry, they roll-over and give you some bigger fish and the process continues until you finally nab Mr Big.
The A-T laws are popular because, after 911, Bali and 7/7, the populus do not want to take any chances. Things are not improved when significant fractions of certain communities give the distinct impression of chronic dysfunctionality.
After putting up with this nonsense for so long the general populus gets jack of it and are happy to give the Law a free hand to clean up the mess. Shades of the Intervention [this said with a straight-face].
There are also a number of bigger agendas at stake here, negotiating a new security pact with Indonesia, handling the ANZUS relationship. Tracking down international money laundering is a big one. Plenty of people with dirty little financial secrets to hide who are vigorously playing the civil rights violin.
All this is uncontroversial with the Man in the Street, not mentally debilitated or morally disarmed by Left-liberal obsessions. Those with a folk memory more enduring than broadsheet op-eds are reluctant to let ethnic strife get out of hand, as so often happens in lands not “girt by sea”.
Jack – The idea is that you lean on small-fry, they roll-over and give you some bigger fish and the process continues until you finally nab Mr Big.
.
That strategy doesn;t work too well for drugs. But when it comes to Jihadism it really won’t work. Al-Qaeda is a franchise operation. Their strategy is to progress in an atomized fashion. I doubt there’s a human being on Earth who knows who all the Mr Bigs are.
“…close knit communities tend to be involved in criminal conspiracies.’
The business community..?
“I understand now what Aborigines meant when they said their kids were stolen. We live in a system designed to take away our rights as a family. It is a system where a human becomes a commodity.”
Rights as a family? What a positively grotesque idea. In this case it is simply a euphemism for allowing the uncle to exercise total control over his relatives (for their own good, naturally). What next? Rights as an ethnicity?
It’s also a little strange to see a leftist like Chav agree with the proposition that a welfare system that refuses to force a 17-year-old to live with his uncle has commodified that 17-year-old. The state indulges in coercion is so many areas, very little of which typically prompts Teh Left to complain of the subordination of the individual.
BBB
I see the Age has now fully embraced Orwellian double-speak on the relationship between democracy and anti-terror leglisation. Cynthia Barnham suggests that the Rudd governmment “future-proof” – what a marvellously revealing construction! – all existing and proposed national security legislation, to prevent the general populus from having a say in laws passed for their protection:
You’ve gotta love the juxtaposition of “future-proof[ing]…Parliament” with “accord with our democratic beliefs”. As if these two contradictory notions sit together like peas in a pod. Can’t let those pesky people be deciding what to do.
“Reactive” rather than “considered” is good too. As if Left-liberals have the rest of History all worked out so we won’t be needing to do anything as vulgar as learning from our mistakes.
Sometimes when I ridicule Left-liberals – their preening moral vanity, reflexive elitism and general bone-headed stupidty on the subject of ethnicity – I am assailed by the feeling: “am I being a bit too hard on them?”. Then along comes a Cythnia Barnham and the feeling passes.
I note the Murdoch Press is backpedalling on claims made that Al-Shabaab intended to conduct a terrorist campaign in Australia. In the article, “Militant Warlords combing diaspora for recruits at home” In the Australian of Thursday 6 August(1), Catherine Philp writes:
Further along, she writes:
Western intelligence agencies have repeatedly warned of the risk of returning ethnic Somalis doing just that. Al-Shabaab is keen to keep its foreign fighters committed to the Somali jihad. Their efforts are said to have greatly contributed to the Islamists’ recent military successes.
I would suggest there is a world of difference between this country being the target of a coordinated international terrorist campaign and a small group of deluded fools (5 at the last count) in this country attempting to launch a terrorist attack at their own initiative, that is, if they are found guilty of what they are charged with.
Unsurprisingly, Al-Shabaab in Somalia has denied any link with these people:
Again, I ask, why would it be in their interests to try to launch such a campaign? What, other than increased intervention in their own country is such a campaign likely to achieve?
I realise that some so-called terrorism ‘experts’ insist that having their own countries invaded by Australia, Britain and the US somehow assists their cause, but common sense would surely tell us otherwise.
Of course, our police and intelligence agencies need to be vigilant in order to ensure that such terrorist actions, whether hatched from abroad or domestically, do not succeed, but we do need to get a sense of proportion over this.
The actual harm that would have occurred to Australians, even if the plans had been carried out, would only comparable to the harm that already occurs in this country anyway through crime, road accidents, industrial accidents, disease, etc. It was certainly the view of the Australian Defence Association that they would not have got very far. (See “Jihadis would be ‘shot in minutes’” in the Australian of 6 August 09).
For its part, the Australian, the Courier Mail and Prime Minister Kevin Rudd are clearly guilty of irresponsible scare-mongering.
A letter in yesterday’s Australian puts it very well:
And what on earth, for example, had all those photos of Al-Shabaab fighters in Somalia splashed all over the Australian in recent days, to do with what might have occurred in this country?
If our police and intelligence agencies want to get to the bottom of this, they should also consider the hypothesis that I referred to above that this may have been staged by something similar to the US P2OG programme.
What kind of name is Al-Shabaab for a terrorist organisation anyway? What are they going to do – beat you to death with some small bits of suspect meat on a stick?
So, DI(nr) what about we’re changing this for Soublaki Liveration Front, you OK wid that if little Greek? Not Turkish meats when you? Is with tzatsiki little spritzig was in bowl overnight fridge busted mate. Have with garlic sauce? OK mate??
Or you making jokes too for that…..
Apologies, the quote in my above post, ended prematurely.
Here it is again, in its context:
… In the article, “Militant Warlords combing diaspora for recruits at home” In the Australian of Thursday 6 August, Catherine Philp writes:
Further along, she writes:
I would suggest there is a world of difference between this country being the target of a coordinated international terrorist campaign and a small group of deluded fools (5 at the last count) in this country attempting to launch a terrorist attack at their own initiative, that is, if they are found guilty of what they are charged with.
…
According to a report on “The World Today” (will post link to transcript after it becomes available) is that the alleged terrorists had no access to automatic weapons. Also, they pointed out that sufficient ammunition to inflict a large number of casualties would be very difficault to obtain.
Yeah, the Soublaki Liveration Front works for me, Ambigulous. With garlic sauce. It strikes fear into the heart, doesn’t it.
With garlic sauce. It strikes fear into the heart, doesn’t it.
Depends if they use fresh garlic or *shudder* garlic powder.
Only because of the Evil Howard’s evil gun laws, no doubt.
GregM #109, on gun laws I’m happy to give Howard credit for doing the right thing. My main gripe on this issue is with irresolute Labor governments (especially at State level) who spent 1988 through to 1996 appeasing the gun lobby for reasons of rank political cowardice and opportunism, and in NSW are still doing so today.
No GregM, Mr Howard’s gun laws were good. On that you and I can agree.
- Spiros, Soublaki Liveration Front
Gah, my wingnut brother in law had a letter in the AGE this Wednesday saying it’s all Immigration’s fault for not keeping all the darkies out. I can just see the next BBQ family conversation. *Headdesk*
The timing of these terrorist raids was a bit unfortunate. It came after a month in which Left-liberals did their level best to encourage everyone to do nothing but celebrate diversity.
In early July the VIC govt launched yet another one of its Multicultural Harmony initiatives, to damp down concern amongst Indians that they would not be bashed by multicultural gangs.
In late July the VIC police and Multicultural Foundation brought out a new guidebook, designed to purge the media of references to terrorism that made any linkage to Islamic sectarianism.
But in mid-July Islamic terrorists blew up the Marriott Hotel in Jakarta, killing two Australians. And to top it off, in early August the VIC police rolled up a terrorist plot to attack Holsworthy Army Base.
You need to have a pretty thick skin, or get an irony-ectomy, to be a straight-faced Left-liberal these days.
Yeah right Gino, we can’t let the overriding human rights charter in the EU get in the way of “democracy” in the UK.
(From that last link Gino referred to):
So according to Gino, as it would appear: “to be a straight-faced Left-liberal these days” one has agree to “wholesale branding of Islam with violence, terrorism and extremism”.
Shorter Gino: Some Muslims commit acts of terrorism, therefore reason #5372 multiculturalism is wrong; celebrating diversity is condoning terrorism and Lefties never do anything “as vulgar as learning from our
Iraqi war GWOTmistakes”.Jihad Jack Strocchi:
Jack, terrorist attacks are to multiculturalism as domestic violence is to marriage.
If you think terrorism invalidates the concept of multiculturalism, then I expect you would agree with hard-line second-wave separatist feminists who charge that domestic violence invalidates the institution of marriage (or, more subtly,that all marriage is a form of domestic violence). I knew that, deep down, you were a feminist all along Jack.
Allow me to paraphrase, viz:
The timing of these domestic violence attacks was a bit unfortunate. It came after a month in which religious types, politicians, and your poor worried mother did their level best to encourage everyone (except gays) to get married.
Go Jihad Jack Strocchi, berating the infidel Left-liberals. I’m sure one day your righteous struggle will bear fruit, and we will all see the error of our ways. Just one more post should do it, Jack. And the more insulting you make it, the more convincing we are sure to find it!
It’s clear why the Commonwealth’s conspiracy law (CCC 11.5)
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/cca1995115/sch1.html
is not in vogue
If for example a specific attack was planned and weapons purchased, the element of “overt act” would be satisfied. Where conspirators were still negotiating what they were going to do, no conspiracy would exist ie no common agreement.
Contrasted with the catch all A/T legislation (CCC 101.6)I posted above, where any “planning” suffices, eg “thought crime” of downloading material for the purpose of possible acts not yet decided or agreed upon by the co-conspirators.
BTW, Helen @ 90. It was not my intention to offend and if so I’m sorry. My intention was to satirise mainly the legislation but secondly, yobbos. A big dollop of black humour there I won’t deny: these are the things yobbos actually say, as I recall I read that line about what a convicted sexual offender said in an old Readers Digest.
(In my profession black humour is sometimes the only therapy for continually putting up with DV perpetrators ie “If she hadn’t said that I wouldn’t have belted her”)
The transcript for the World Today of Thursday 6 August does not yet seem to have been posted even though Friday’s is on the front page. The links to the archives of all of last week’s programmes are broken on the archives, so it might be another week, before I can post the link as promised.
—
GregM the fact remains, that there was little chance that the alleged terrorists could have killed or injured many people, even if they had not been arrested this week.
I restate my point that the alleged terrorist threat, even if they had access to automatic weapons, which they did not, was comparable, to a range of other dangers that our society is able to cope with all the time, not to mention the vastly greater threat of global warming and overall ecological destruction that is staring us in the face. It is no cause for us to turn our country upside down, once again, as the Murdoch press and Prime Minister Rudd would have us do.
To those bleeding heart left-liberals who fell over themselves to lavish praise on Howard for banning automatic weapons in 1996, I ask that they contemplate the fact that this is the same man who, allowed — and knowingly allowed as most Australians believe, according to opinion polls — $270 million of bribes to be paid by the Australian Wheat Board (AWB) to the very government that he told us in 2003 was such a mortal threat to world peace taht we were left with no choice but to invade. This is the same man who unleashed mercenaries and rottweilers on Australia’s waterfront workforce in 1998. Anyone who, today, holds that Howard’s motives, in his much ballyhooed changes to gun laws back in 1996, were sincere, is deluded.
At the very best it was a cynical political charade, and I remember well how, at the time, it fooled a lot of people who should have known better, were fooled, or chose to be fooled. As Howard was slashing and burning public services and deliberately destroying the prospects that hundreds of millions of poor Australians had back then to achieve dental health by axing the Commonwealth Dental Program, bleeding heart liberals all over the country, instead of speaking out against these outrages, were singing the praises of John Howard.
In any case, there is considerable controversy over the Port Arthur Massacre that was used by John Howard as the pretext to change the gun laws. I haven’t yet reached a firm conclusion as to what happened on that day, but I urge others to do their own research on that question. I am certainly happy to point others to what appear to be very plausible documents which are at odds with the official version, if anyone is interested.
—
Jack Strocchi, as you may recall, I am actually in agreement with you in opposition to high immigration and I am also opposed to multiculturalism. I think you should contemplate the fact that the same Murdoch newsmedia which is, today, fanning the flames of fear and has played such a despicable role in brainwashing the Australian public into supporting the Iraq war and accepting repressive laws which have taken away many of our basic freedoms, also promotes high immigration and multiculturalism.
You may find of interest, this intellectually cowardly dismissal of those who question the Official explanations of 9/11 and the JFK assassination by Bernard Salt, a shameless promoter of population growth on behalf of the property speculation ‘industry’.
No doubt, if Salt were on this forum now, he would be joining in with those who are beating up the terrorist threat.
Inevitably, crowding ever more people together, particularly from regions like the Middle East will lead to conflict. At one end of the spectrum will be rape cases such as that described in Paul Sheehan’s “Girls Like You”. In the middle will be instances like the Cronulla riots and at the other end in times of extreme social disharmony, there could well be acts of terrorism, and outright war.
It is my view that all of this suits the interests of the selfish elites who are now in control of this country’s agenda, just as much as the bloody wars now being waged in the Middle East.
One way to stop this we need firstly to get our record high rate of immigration back under control and try to again and from there try to build a harmonious national culture, once again.
In the meantime, we need to learn how to distinguish real terrorist threats from manufactured illusions of such threats.
Many people? Is just a few dead people OK then? Just how many dead or injured people do you think would be acceptable in the event of a terrorist attack in Australia, daggett? Come on, you’ve obviously given this a bit of thought. You must have some number in mind. Is twenty close to the mark? Too many? Too few?
Something tells me that you’re not the person we should entrust with the task of doing that for us.
(Walks away slowly, whistling)
Just a small point but there aren’t hundreds of millions of Australians, let alone poor ones, still less poor ones in need of dental care. Unless of course there is a vast conspiracy by the Evil Howard to hide the truth from us and he has subverted the Australian Bureau of Statistics into publishing false figures. I suppose that you’ll tell us that that is what has happened.
Howard had hundreds of millions of poor, dentally deficient Australians secretly killed in the 9/11 attack. (He was there. QED.)
That’s why Howard’s vast crime has until now gone undiscovered.
The poor victims had no teeth and therefore could not be identified.
All this to justify scrapping dental care. Are there no depths to the man’s evil doings?
GregM,
I suggest you re-read my <a href="#comment-818674"post.
One dead Australian is one too many as far as I am concerned.
I have never suggested that the police and security agencies should not act decisively against anyone who is clearly contemplating such acts as they did this week.
The number of Australians killed by terrorist action, even taking into account the Bali outrage and the likely death toll if this attack had proceded, is incomparably smaller than deaths due to traffic accidents, crime, random violence, bushfires, floods, etc.
What I am suggesting is that we treat the threat of terrorism in a proportion comparable with the proportion with which we treat other other dangers we also face.
Even before 11 September 2001, we had in place, measures that, as far as I can tell, were adequate to deal with all the subsequent terrorist threats that have since eventuated on Australian soil.
—
GregM,
Obviously I did not mean to write ‘hundreds of millions’. I meant to write ‘hundreds of thousands’.
—
I note GregM’s feeble attempt to parody my detestation of former Prime Minister John Howard. I ask GregM: If launching a bloody war against the same regime that you previously bribed with AU$296Million (I think is the correct figure) is not evil, then what is?
I think it is very high-minded of the would-be terrorists to go for army barracks instead of train-stations in peak hour. Perhaps they read about Durruti? I mean if you imagine yourself as at-war with Australia as a jihad soldier you’d take on the armed forces not the civilian population. That shows a level of senitivity a shade above Churchill, Bomber Harris and Curtis Le May, not to mention US Air Force target planners for the Plain of Jars, Laos, 1967, or even staff officers in charge of the Australian SAS in Afghanistan. So, no credit given where credit is due.
Second, the Melbourne group planned to attack Holsworthy Barracks which is home to 17 Signals Regiment, 3rd Battalion, Royal Australian Regiment (3RAR), 2nd Commando Regiment (2 Cdo Regt), 171st Aviation Squadron olus some dentists in the 1st Health Support Battalion. Worthy adversaries, except the dentists. Warrior on warrior, right?
The plan wasn’t to bomb it with mortars or rockets, which the IRA or the Palestinian insurgents would have done but to rush in through the gates in a suicide attack spraying the enemy with automatic weapons.
Unlike Martin Bryant in Tasmania, who stalked and murdered unarmed civilians, the jihadis would eventually be overwhelmed by trained soldiers bearing arms. They would probably have the element of surprise which would allow them to kill some people, but one guesses that their spree would be cut short fairly quickly.
So, they have gone to the barracks to spec them out. They know where the main gates are, and the roads in side (marked by painted half bricks) are all neatly laid out. There are plenty of signs, red on white. Easy peasy. What now? Ah, well, a half dozen AK 47s. or Steyrs, or M16s, all capable of firing on full auto. And four 30 round mags a person (any more and it is hard to break into a trot to deploy).
It seems that the jihadis hadn’t quite actually managed to get hold of the hardware or the ammo, but that’s a minor detail…
Perhaps the real plan was to get publicity in the media to draw attention to themselves and the plight of innocent civilians being killed in Afghanistan by the SAS but the information about this is sanitised by defence spin doctoring.
The “terrorist attack” thus starts to make more sense.
The dentists are the key to it, SHC. From the information daggett has provided to us above it is clear that the purpose in choosing Holsworthy was to get at the dentists, all as part of a vast conspiracy masterminded by the Evil Howard to further deprive us of our
precious bodily fluidscherished dental care so that we are brought low by toothache. As Katz has rightly observed there no depths to the man’s evil doings.Note GregM’s hypocrisy. One moment, he indignantly and dishonestly implies that I am indifferent to the threats to Australian lives.
Many people? Is just a few dead people OK then? Just how many dead or injured people do you think would be acceptable in the event of a terrorist attack in Australia, daggett? Come on, you’ve obviously given this a bit of thought. You must have some number in mind. Is twenty close to the mark? Too many? Too few?
My response is ignored.
Instead, he attempts, not once, but twice, to ridicule my own indignation at former Prime Minister Howard’s culpability in crimes on a far greater scale to the people of Iraq and Afghanistan.
OK, this is going nowhere. I’m closing the thread.