Comments on: The Coalition approach to emissions trading – outsource to Asia http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/08/10/the-coalition-approach-to-emissions-trading-outsource-to-asia/ Life, Culture and Politics from BrisVegas Tue, 14 Feb 2012 10:11:31 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3 By: Ootz http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/08/10/the-coalition-approach-to-emissions-trading-outsource-to-asia/#comment-140040 Ootz Fri, 14 Aug 2009 01:00:30 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=9364#comment-140040 <cite>Answer? Turnbulls approach is a total cop out and offers to achieve less than nothing. So, what you are saying it is politics as usual? A snowing job, just jokeying to stay ahead in the party not to mention the polls. They say he is bold and ruthless, but has he got any 'headland stuff' out there, which would indicate where his approach is coming from and more importantly where it would lead to for the mums and dads. In that regard how would you rate his performance as Minister in the previous Gov? Re Dwelling design, yup I can attest a worthwhile endeavor :). There is a definite slow but growing movement away from the McMansions. I did an Eco - Glenn Murcett number. Always liked that Oz shed look. Re Climate Change impacts, put it this way, I rather live in the 'Wet Tropics' than 'Down South'. However, I am reading at the moment a great tome with history of the region. Chapters on 'Frontier War' and 'Great Depression' provide some interesting insights into the human psyche when 'sh1t hits the fan'. Answer? Turnbulls approach is a total cop out and offers to achieve less than nothing.

So, what you are saying it is politics as usual? A snowing job, just jokeying to stay ahead in the party not to mention the polls. They say he is bold and ruthless, but has he got any ‘headland stuff’ out there, which would indicate where his approach is coming from and more importantly where it would lead to for the mums and dads. In that regard how would you rate his performance as Minister in the previous Gov?

Re Dwelling design, yup I can attest a worthwhile endeavor :) . There is a definite slow but growing movement away from the McMansions. I did an Eco – Glenn Murcett number. Always liked that Oz shed look.
Re Climate Change impacts, put it this way, I rather live in the ‘Wet Tropics’ than ‘Down South’. However, I am reading at the moment a great tome with history of the region. Chapters on ‘Frontier War’ and ‘Great Depression’ provide some interesting insights into the human psyche when ‘sh1t hits the fan’.

]]> By: BilB http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/08/10/the-coalition-approach-to-emissions-trading-outsource-to-asia/#comment-140039 BilB Thu, 13 Aug 2009 14:00:58 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=9364#comment-140039 Ootz 62, Well, you're clearly energied up, but I was wondering what Climate Change risks your in for. In the Blue Mountains here it is fire, hail, flash rain deluges, heat and lightning. At my factory in Emu Plains I have had flash deluges and more recently a lightning strike. The lightning strike is a serious risk. It damaged millions of dollars of machinery in nearby factories, and blew up tvs, stereos, and a spot welding machine in my factory. Strangely all of CNC machinery was not damaged despite the factory taking a direct hit on the TV aerial. Apparently the strike came into the other buildings through the earth connection. In your area you will be exposed to cyclone wind damage and deluge damage (Taiwan 3 metres in four days, wow). What are your other exposures? I am rethinking dwelling designs. By the way my family has 3 chooks in the back yard (chinese type). We are not that serious about the eggs at the moment. I just like to see them doing their thing in the back yard. They are going to be sharing their part of the yard with a 30 foot ferro cement Bristol Channel Cutter design boat for the next 3 years while I build it. Have a look at the Russian back yards in the top photo http://www.deltaflier.com/categories/gallery/flight These people know how to feed themselves. Answer? Turnbulls approach is a total cop out and offers to achieve less than nothing. Ootz 62,

Well, you’re clearly energied up, but I was wondering what Climate Change risks your in for. In the Blue Mountains here it is fire, hail, flash rain deluges, heat and lightning. At my factory in Emu Plains I have had flash deluges and more recently a lightning strike. The lightning strike is a serious risk. It damaged millions of dollars of machinery in nearby factories, and blew up tvs, stereos, and a spot welding machine in my factory. Strangely all of CNC machinery was not damaged despite the factory taking a direct hit on the TV aerial. Apparently the strike came into the other buildings through the earth connection.

In your area you will be exposed to cyclone wind damage and deluge damage (Taiwan 3 metres in four days, wow). What are your other exposures? I am rethinking dwelling designs.

By the way my family has 3 chooks in the back yard (chinese type). We are not that serious about the eggs at the moment. I just like to see them doing their thing in the back yard. They are going to be sharing their part of the yard with a 30 foot ferro cement Bristol Channel Cutter design boat for the next 3 years while I build it.

Have a look at the Russian back yards in the top photo

http://www.deltaflier.com/categories/gallery/flight

These people know how to feed themselves.

Answer? Turnbulls approach is a total cop out and offers to achieve less than nothing.

]]> By: Ootz http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/08/10/the-coalition-approach-to-emissions-trading-outsource-to-asia/#comment-140038 Ootz Thu, 13 Aug 2009 12:56:17 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=9364#comment-140038 Roger Jones, I never thought of my question as a DD. Surely once we are collectively hopping down the cliff that Elise is outlining @ 65, blood will be called for. Indeed, clever tactics would be to make sure your party is not in Government in the ensuing train wreck! Is this what all this ETS argie bargie is about, hedging? Hey Moz, yup same here, incremental change is the word and creative use of others rubbish I call resource opportunism. Building sites are great treasure troves. I wear my 'Eccentric' badge with pride and decorum, I am working towards getting my place shown in Vogue Living. Though, as you said, once everyone gets on the bandwagon, kind of spoils it. How many 'share holders' with the 60 hens? Bet you get more tangible returns then any bluechip stock atm. Ceres, are u in Vic, do you do LETs as well? Roger Jones, I never thought of my question as a DD. Surely once we are collectively hopping down the cliff that Elise is outlining @ 65, blood will be called for. Indeed, clever tactics would be to make sure your party is not in Government in the ensuing train wreck! Is this what all this ETS argie bargie is about, hedging?

Hey Moz, yup same here, incremental change is the word and creative use of others rubbish I call resource opportunism. Building sites are great treasure troves. I wear my ‘Eccentric’ badge with pride and decorum, I am working towards getting my place shown in Vogue Living. Though, as you said, once everyone gets on the bandwagon, kind of spoils it. How many ‘share holders’ with the 60 hens? Bet you get more tangible returns then any bluechip stock atm. Ceres, are u in Vic, do you do LETs as well?

]]> By: Moz http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/08/10/the-coalition-approach-to-emissions-trading-outsource-to-asia/#comment-140037 Moz Thu, 13 Aug 2009 08:43:15 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=9364#comment-140037 We dumpster dive for compost ingredients, which is fine until everyone starts doing it :) Chooks in the city is pretty easy, we're part of the Ceres Chook Group so we get the economies of scale and don't have to deal with landlords getting uppity about livestock. 60 hens in one quarter-acre chook pen is easier to deal with than 5 in the backyard. Although chasing 5 escapees at once can make me re-think that idea. Lifestyle changes are easy enough if done incrementally. It's like gaining or losing weight - a little bit every day is easier and better than a binge once a month. After a while you notice that people refer to you as a bloody greenie and you wonder why. We dumpster dive for compost ingredients, which is fine until everyone starts doing it :) Chooks in the city is pretty easy, we’re part of the Ceres Chook Group so we get the economies of scale and don’t have to deal with landlords getting uppity about livestock. 60 hens in one quarter-acre chook pen is easier to deal with than 5 in the backyard. Although chasing 5 escapees at once can make me re-think that idea.

Lifestyle changes are easy enough if done incrementally. It’s like gaining or losing weight – a little bit every day is easier and better than a binge once a month. After a while you notice that people refer to you as a bloody greenie and you wonder why.

]]> By: Elise http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/08/10/the-coalition-approach-to-emissions-trading-outsource-to-asia/#comment-140036 Elise Thu, 13 Aug 2009 08:30:50 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=9364#comment-140036 Ootz @63, I'm glad you found that RBA link. I think it summarises a lot of useful information using a small number of words. In response to your comment that the oil production has plateaued, it only looks like a plateau up close. The drawn-out peak is because we are continually supplementing oilfields that are declining, in a mad race against time; replacing the dying mammoths with lots of small mice. I would like to offer another link, to a summary graph from The Oil Drum (an oil industry online site). http://www.theoildrum.com/files/cclt20090516.png The difference in the number of barrels/day at the peak/plateau of 2005-2008 between the RBA graph and this graph, is because the Oil Drum does not include various oil equivalents, so it gives the dominant underlying story from the oil industry. Otherwise the trends are the same. The most important point is that this graph shows our likely unpleasant future, starting NEXT YEAR. We are standing on the cliff at the end of the mountain range. It's all downhill from here, folks! :( The data is based on "bottom-up" field-by-field reports of detailed reservoir simulations, which are used for monitoring the production from the oilfields. Even if you don't know what all the oil industry annotations mean, the trends are clear enough, and you can calculate the percentage decline between now and say 2020. Somehow, we are going to have to get by on less oil. MUCH less, if the Chinese and Indians all want to drive cars too. There are orders of magnitude more of them than the current OECD car-driving population. Even if only the wealthy top 10% want to join in, that is a serious additional demand on a declining supply. One further note, is that from my experience working on declining oilfields, they invariably decline FASTER than the simulation models predict. The models are too conservative, or too optimistic if you like. Since this graph is based on conservative modelling, the real shortfall could unfortunately be worse. We will be living in interesting times... Ootz @63, I’m glad you found that RBA link. I think it summarises a lot of useful information using a small number of words.

In response to your comment that the oil production has plateaued, it only looks like a plateau up close. The drawn-out peak is because we are continually supplementing oilfields that are declining, in a mad race against time; replacing the dying mammoths with lots of small mice.

I would like to offer another link, to a summary graph from The Oil Drum (an oil industry online site).

http://www.theoildrum.com/files/cclt20090516.png

The difference in the number of barrels/day at the peak/plateau of 2005-2008 between the RBA graph and this graph, is because the Oil Drum does not include various oil equivalents, so it gives the dominant underlying story from the oil industry. Otherwise the trends are the same.

The most important point is that this graph shows our likely unpleasant future, starting NEXT YEAR. We are standing on the cliff at the end of the mountain range. It’s all downhill from here, folks! :(

The data is based on “bottom-up” field-by-field reports of detailed reservoir simulations, which are used for monitoring the production from the oilfields. Even if you don’t know what all the oil industry annotations mean, the trends are clear enough, and you can calculate the percentage decline between now and say 2020.

Somehow, we are going to have to get by on less oil. MUCH less, if the Chinese and Indians all want to drive cars too. There are orders of magnitude more of them than the current OECD car-driving population. Even if only the wealthy top 10% want to join in, that is a serious additional demand on a declining supply.

One further note, is that from my experience working on declining oilfields, they invariably decline FASTER than the simulation models predict. The models are too conservative, or too optimistic if you like. Since this graph is based on conservative modelling, the real shortfall could unfortunately be worse.

We will be living in interesting times…

]]> By: Roger Jones http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/08/10/the-coalition-approach-to-emissions-trading-outsource-to-asia/#comment-140035 Roger Jones Thu, 13 Aug 2009 08:12:02 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=9364#comment-140035 Ootz, re your Dorothy Dixer on lifestyle - no politician of an other than green hue will touch lifestyle. It is totally a no go area for politics. It's easy to explain - when you're trying to get aspiring voters or working families to vote for you for the marginal improvement in income worth a cup of coffee a week, the last thing the politician wants to tell that voter is that they can't have stuff. Appealing to voters to act for the benefit of others, society or the environment is a conversation of yesteryear. The only viable political strategy is cornucopia. MORE PLASMA!! Then you read Jared Diamond's book <em>Collapse</em> and related works from others and think - yep, we could wreck the place with our eyes closed. By Saturday. Without. Even. Trying. Ootz,

re your Dorothy Dixer on lifestyle – no politician of an other than green hue will touch lifestyle. It is totally a no go area for politics. It’s easy to explain – when you’re trying to get aspiring voters or working families to vote for you for the marginal improvement in income worth a cup of coffee a week, the last thing the politician wants to tell that voter is that they can’t have stuff.

Appealing to voters to act for the benefit of others, society or the environment is a conversation of yesteryear. The only viable political strategy is cornucopia. MORE PLASMA!!

Then you read Jared Diamond’s book Collapse and related works from others and think – yep, we could wreck the place with our eyes closed. By Saturday. Without. Even. Trying.

]]> By: Ootz http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/08/10/the-coalition-approach-to-emissions-trading-outsource-to-asia/#comment-140034 Ootz Thu, 13 Aug 2009 07:32:31 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=9364#comment-140034 Thnks for the RBA link Elise @55. Over at Unleash someone was making the same point as you, that oil production has plateaued out rather then peaked. O well, with that in mind and the ongoing wobbles of GFC, throw an emission trading in the mix, pretty interesting scenario. Absolutely agree with you here "However, this discussion nees to go beyond what are essentially two versions of ETS. It also needs to go beyond the idea that there is no alternative to putting a price on carbon." Hence, my ongoing questioning about Lifestyle, isnt that what it really is going to boil down to. Should'nt we include that as a handy reference in designing and implementing Emission Reduction Approaches, or at least discuss it? Thnks for the RBA link Elise @55.
Over at Unleash someone was making the same point as you, that oil production has plateaued out rather then peaked. O well, with that in mind and the ongoing wobbles of GFC, throw an emission trading in the mix, pretty interesting scenario.

Absolutely agree with you here
“However, this discussion nees to go beyond what are essentially two versions of ETS.

It also needs to go beyond the idea that there is no alternative to putting a price on carbon.”

Hence, my ongoing questioning about Lifestyle, isnt that what it really is going to boil down to. Should’nt we include that as a handy reference in designing and implementing Emission Reduction Approaches, or at least discuss it?

]]> By: Ootz http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/08/10/the-coalition-approach-to-emissions-trading-outsource-to-asia/#comment-140033 Ootz Thu, 13 Aug 2009 07:14:10 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=9364#comment-140033 BilB @60 - Cairns Region, why? BTW, had chooks on the balcony in the city before, no probs. You see, everyone prefers fresh eggs, Neighbours too ;). Instead of the Gym I dug over the garden and grew spuds, in Lane Cove, NSW. The Neighbours kids thought it was a hoot. DI re biochar thing, just forget about it, common old compost is the best in regards to CO2 and soil fertility. Though it s a bit like brewing your own beer. The ingredients got to be right and basic instructions adhered to. However, I am still asking the question relevant to the topic of this thread - Does Malcolm Turnbulls approach to Emmission Trading address/explain the Lifestyle changes our Nation will go through as a consequence? Does any politician for that matter? Or does everyone think it is business as usual? BilB @60 – Cairns Region, why?
BTW, had chooks on the balcony in the city before, no probs. You see, everyone prefers fresh eggs, Neighbours too ;) . Instead of the Gym I dug over the garden and grew spuds, in Lane Cove, NSW. The Neighbours kids thought it was a hoot.

DI re biochar thing, just forget about it, common old compost is the best in regards to CO2 and soil fertility. Though it s a bit like brewing your own beer. The ingredients got to be right and basic instructions adhered to.

However, I am still asking the question relevant to the topic of this thread – Does Malcolm Turnbulls approach to Emmission Trading address/explain the Lifestyle changes our Nation will go through as a consequence? Does any politician for that matter? Or does everyone think it is business as usual?

]]> By: David Irving (no relation) http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/08/10/the-coalition-approach-to-emissions-trading-outsource-to-asia/#comment-140032 David Irving (no relation) Thu, 13 Aug 2009 03:10:54 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=9364#comment-140032 Apologies, Ootz. It sounds as though you <em>are</em> doing more than I am. I'm still trying to work out how to get some biochar onto my own paddock that is more-or-less locally sourced, and has been burnt to do useful work (rather than just burnt). Apologies, Ootz. It sounds as though you are doing more than I am. I’m still trying to work out how to get some biochar onto my own paddock that is more-or-less locally sourced, and has been burnt to do useful work (rather than just burnt).

]]> By: BilB http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/08/10/the-coalition-approach-to-emissions-trading-outsource-to-asia/#comment-140031 BilB Thu, 13 Aug 2009 02:39:40 +0000 http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=9364#comment-140031 What part of the country are you in, Ootz? What part of the country are you in, Ootz?

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