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	<title>Comments on: Thermal solar with storage</title>
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	<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/08/25/thermal-solar-with-storage/</link>
	<description>Life, Culture and Politics from BrisVegas</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 08:56:52 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Elise</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/08/25/thermal-solar-with-storage/#comment-142572</link>
		<dc:creator>Elise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2009 09:07:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=9689#comment-142572</guid>
		<description>John D @228:  &quot;No mention on putting a price on catbon but a strong message supporting all those of us that are saying that price (and sale) guarantees are essential to encourage investment in a way that minimizes price increases.&quot;

Copy that, with bells on!  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John D @228:  &#8220;No mention on putting a price on catbon but a strong message supporting all those of us that are saying that price (and sale) guarantees are essential to encourage investment in a way that minimizes price increases.&#8221;</p>
<p>Copy that, with bells on!  <img src='http://larvatusprodeo.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/08/25/thermal-solar-with-storage/#comment-142571</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2009 08:17:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=9689#comment-142571</guid>
		<description>I had heard about it, but I&#039;m not sure where.

Colour me cynical, but China are going ahead full bore with coal and nuclear also. I believe they&#039;ve declared renewable energy as a strategic industry and have an overriding interest in being in front of the pack in manufacturing the where-with-all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had heard about it, but I&#8217;m not sure where.</p>
<p>Colour me cynical, but China are going ahead full bore with coal and nuclear also. I believe they&#8217;ve declared renewable energy as a strategic industry and have an overriding interest in being in front of the pack in manufacturing the where-with-all.</p>
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		<title>By: John D</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/08/25/thermal-solar-with-storage/#comment-142570</link>
		<dc:creator>John D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2009 06:24:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=9689#comment-142570</guid>
		<description>BilB@227: Subscription to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.gizmag.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;GIZMAG&lt;/a&gt; should be compulsury for anyone who wants to comment on solutions to climate change or is just interested in smart ideas. In terms of the chinese solar power the following quote from the article is worth noting: &lt;blockquote&gt;Central to the project will be its operation under a government feed-in-tariff scheme. According to Ahearn, a long-term price guarantee for the electricity produced by the plant “is necessary to create a strong solar market and facilitate the construction of a project this size, which in turn continues to drive the cost of solar electricity closer to ‘grid parity’ - where it is competitive with traditional energy sources.&lt;/blockquote&gt; No mention on putting a price on catbon but a strong message supporting all those of us that are saying that price (and sale) guarantees are essential to encourage investment in a way that minimizes price increases.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BilB@227: Subscription to <a href="http://www.gizmag.com/" rel="nofollow">GIZMAG</a> should be compulsury for anyone who wants to comment on solutions to climate change or is just interested in smart ideas. In terms of the chinese solar power the following quote from the article is worth noting:<br />
<blockquote>Central to the project will be its operation under a government feed-in-tariff scheme. According to Ahearn, a long-term price guarantee for the electricity produced by the plant “is necessary to create a strong solar market and facilitate the construction of a project this size, which in turn continues to drive the cost of solar electricity closer to ‘grid parity’ &#8211; where it is competitive with traditional energy sources.</p></blockquote>
<p> No mention on putting a price on catbon but a strong message supporting all those of us that are saying that price (and sale) guarantees are essential to encourage investment in a way that minimizes price increases.</p>
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		<title>By: BilB</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/08/25/thermal-solar-with-storage/#comment-142569</link>
		<dc:creator>BilB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2009 04:13:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=9689#comment-142569</guid>
		<description>The next person who declares that China is doing nothing about their CO2 emissions is going to be ignored.

http://www.gizmag.com/worlds-largest-solar-power-plant-china/12806/?utm_source=Gizmag+Subscribers&amp;utm_campaign=d3371107f9-UA-2235360-4&amp;utm_medium=email</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The next person who declares that China is doing nothing about their CO2 emissions is going to be ignored.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.gizmag.com/worlds-largest-solar-power-plant-china/12806/?utm_source=Gizmag+Subscribers&#038;utm_campaign=d3371107f9-UA-2235360-4&#038;utm_medium=email" rel="nofollow">http://www.gizmag.com/worlds-largest-solar-power-plant-china/12806/?utm_source=Gizmag+Subscribers&#038;utm_campaign=d3371107f9-UA-2235360-4&#038;utm_medium=email</a></p>
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		<title>By: Fran Barlow</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/08/25/thermal-solar-with-storage/#comment-142568</link>
		<dc:creator>Fran Barlow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2009 02:19:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=9689#comment-142568</guid>
		<description>I think your summary is reasonable, Brian, but although a carbon rpice alone will not ensure that what needs rto be done gets done, it is I believe &lt;i&gt;a necessary condition&lt;/i&gt; for the collaboration needed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think your summary is reasonable, Brian, but although a carbon rpice alone will not ensure that what needs rto be done gets done, it is I believe <i>a necessary condition</i> for the collaboration needed.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/08/25/thermal-solar-with-storage/#comment-142567</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2009 01:50:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=9689#comment-142567</guid>
		<description>Fran my view on the information available is that there are only a few biofuel sources that may have some value in terms of the energy yield as against energy inputs and other environmental negatives. Algae is among the most promising and we may need it to provide things like jet fuel from a low net emissions source.

Give that we need to get emissions down to net zero and beyond we really need go as clean as possible everywhere in every aspect of production and consumption. We&#039;ll need genuine sequestration activities like forestry, perhaps biochar, to offset all the emissions we can&#039;t avoid while still providing reasonable opportunities for a satisfying and pleasant lifestyle.

In calibrating all this I doubt whether the market with a price on carbon is going to give us optimum or even sufficient outcomes. It&#039;s likely to require rational intelligence and political cooperation on a scale perhaps never achieved before.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fran my view on the information available is that there are only a few biofuel sources that may have some value in terms of the energy yield as against energy inputs and other environmental negatives. Algae is among the most promising and we may need it to provide things like jet fuel from a low net emissions source.</p>
<p>Give that we need to get emissions down to net zero and beyond we really need go as clean as possible everywhere in every aspect of production and consumption. We&#8217;ll need genuine sequestration activities like forestry, perhaps biochar, to offset all the emissions we can&#8217;t avoid while still providing reasonable opportunities for a satisfying and pleasant lifestyle.</p>
<p>In calibrating all this I doubt whether the market with a price on carbon is going to give us optimum or even sufficient outcomes. It&#8217;s likely to require rational intelligence and political cooperation on a scale perhaps never achieved before.</p>
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		<title>By: Fran Barlow</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/08/25/thermal-solar-with-storage/#comment-142566</link>
		<dc:creator>Fran Barlow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:52:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=9689#comment-142566</guid>
		<description>Brian@223

Well yes, if the algal biomass is combusted then all that is really happening is a further fuel cycle in the CO2 added by the original source, rather than sequestration. Whether this new cycle is of any net value depends on whether some other combustion of fossil fuels is foreclosed.

And yes, it doesn&#039;t matter where the algal pond is set up unless gorwth rates are better near the power station are better as a result of the more concentrated CO2 supply.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian@223</p>
<p>Well yes, if the algal biomass is combusted then all that is really happening is a further fuel cycle in the CO2 added by the original source, rather than sequestration. Whether this new cycle is of any net value depends on whether some other combustion of fossil fuels is foreclosed.</p>
<p>And yes, it doesn&#8217;t matter where the algal pond is set up unless gorwth rates are better near the power station are better as a result of the more concentrated CO2 supply.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/08/25/thermal-solar-with-storage/#comment-142565</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 12:48:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=9689#comment-142565</guid>
		<description>I gather that the algae is used to make biofuels, which means that it isn&#039;t sequestered at all. As John D points out you don&#039;t have to have the pond next to the fossil fuel burning power station, so claiming that setting up an algae pool makes a power station clean is a complete con. There is no necessary connection and it is not even an offset in the normally understood meaning of the term.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I gather that the algae is used to make biofuels, which means that it isn&#8217;t sequestered at all. As John D points out you don&#8217;t have to have the pond next to the fossil fuel burning power station, so claiming that setting up an algae pool makes a power station clean is a complete con. There is no necessary connection and it is not even an offset in the normally understood meaning of the term.</p>
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		<title>By: Fran Barlow</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/08/25/thermal-solar-with-storage/#comment-142564</link>
		<dc:creator>Fran Barlow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 05:12:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=9689#comment-142564</guid>
		<description>JohnD@221

There is &lt;i&gt;some&lt;/i&gt; value in piping the CO2-rich effluent through the algae since (sunlight permitting) you do get (with some strains) increased yield, and you also remove quite a bit of NOx. It&#039;s doubtful though if the economics compare well with open raceway ponds. I heard that one company in Milwaukee (IIRC -- will stand corrected on this) -- a beer company -- was doing something with a company called Solix along these lines.

The pools in question are very large -- &lt;a href=&quot;http://tinyurl.com/raceway-algae-ponds&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;raceway-style. Here is a recent reference.&lt;/a&gt;

Fairly obviously, some algaes can grow in brackish water -- I understand there was some work being done in Hawaii along these lines though again, I&#039;m not sure of the economics. These would obviously change if there were a serious cost on carbon emission in general and on the footprint of crude oil in particular.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JohnD@221</p>
<p>There is <i>some</i> value in piping the CO2-rich effluent through the algae since (sunlight permitting) you do get (with some strains) increased yield, and you also remove quite a bit of NOx. It&#8217;s doubtful though if the economics compare well with open raceway ponds. I heard that one company in Milwaukee (IIRC &#8212; will stand corrected on this) &#8212; a beer company &#8212; was doing something with a company called Solix along these lines.</p>
<p>The pools in question are very large &#8212; <a href="http://tinyurl.com/raceway-algae-ponds" rel="nofollow">raceway-style. Here is a recent reference.</a></p>
<p>Fairly obviously, some algaes can grow in brackish water &#8212; I understand there was some work being done in Hawaii along these lines though again, I&#8217;m not sure of the economics. These would obviously change if there were a serious cost on carbon emission in general and on the footprint of crude oil in particular.</p>
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		<title>By: John D</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/08/25/thermal-solar-with-storage/#comment-142563</link>
		<dc:creator>John D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 11:55:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=9689#comment-142563</guid>
		<description>I doubt there is very much merit in bubbling CO2 throughthe algae - probably costs a lot less to send the CO2 up the stack and let the algae use the CO2 in the air. gives more flexibility re algae farm location and saves the cost of collecting and bubbling  CO2.
Fran @ 208: Peter&#039;s figures above are similar to my guess, i.e., you have to be talkig about very large pools, not tanks. Large pools mean that species used has to be able to compete with the wild stuff and has to be OK for fish, ducks etc. to eat. Large pools also mean evaporation so it would be smart to use an algae that works in salt water from the sea.
I don&#039;t see natural gas as the long term solution unless CO2 sequestration works a lot better and costs a lot less than current expectations. I see natureal gas as cheap way of getting short term gains while we allow various tecnolgies to develop a bit more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I doubt there is very much merit in bubbling CO2 throughthe algae &#8211; probably costs a lot less to send the CO2 up the stack and let the algae use the CO2 in the air. gives more flexibility re algae farm location and saves the cost of collecting and bubbling  CO2.<br />
Fran @ 208: Peter&#8217;s figures above are similar to my guess, i.e., you have to be talkig about very large pools, not tanks. Large pools mean that species used has to be able to compete with the wild stuff and has to be OK for fish, ducks etc. to eat. Large pools also mean evaporation so it would be smart to use an algae that works in salt water from the sea.<br />
I don&#8217;t see natural gas as the long term solution unless CO2 sequestration works a lot better and costs a lot less than current expectations. I see natureal gas as cheap way of getting short term gains while we allow various tecnolgies to develop a bit more.</p>
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