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	<title>Comments on: Cribb on the future of food</title>
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	<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/11/11/cribb-on-the-future-of-food/</link>
	<description>Blogging politics, culture, sociology and life from Brisvegas</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2010 13:06:04 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	
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		<title>By: Canada Guy</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/11/11/cribb-on-the-future-of-food/comment-page-1/#comment-837804</link>
		<dc:creator>Canada Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:43:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=10619#comment-837804</guid>
		<description>We have definitely overshot the carrying capacity of the planet.  By drawing down ecological capital, instead living off the returns of that capital, short term growth can be accomplished at the cost of reducing future carrying capacity, with generally disastrous results.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.selfdestructivebastards.com/2009/11/carrying-capacity.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.selfdestructivebastards.com/2009/11/carrying-capacity.html&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We have definitely overshot the carrying capacity of the planet.  By drawing down ecological capital, instead living off the returns of that capital, short term growth can be accomplished at the cost of reducing future carrying capacity, with generally disastrous results.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.selfdestructivebastards.com/2009/11/carrying-capacity.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.selfdestructivebastards.com/2009/11/carrying-capacity.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: philip travers</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/11/11/cribb-on-the-future-of-food/comment-page-1/#comment-836448</link>
		<dc:creator>philip travers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:05:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=10619#comment-836448</guid>
		<description>Cultivation has no redeemable standard compared to something else that has been cultivated,so using that understanding any grass can be cultivated within the limitsof the environment..Don&#039;t forget that there are many flying objects today,and materials that can withstand temperatures and be remotely run!Silicon based materials from a chemical industrial process can elaborate material from deserts.Deserts are in fact,very valuable,if seen in the right light.Carrying payload of flying vehicles may not need to transport water ,but be adaptable to use nightly condensation .That type of thinking with deeply buried below the surface contacts with flying vehicles may mean more moisture could become available.If one looks at forested areas of a landscape creating the conditions for regular rainfall,it isn&#039;t strange to imagine a technological growth under the sands replicating large tree growth,and be made almost entirely of desert made manufactured materials,until and with natural eco-system establishment.Australians should encourage existing mining operations,where underground mining can be done,to experiment with underground mining in very dry areas,without disturbing the surface.Obviously there is the practicality of converting materials to solid walls etc.Living underground,even having a nomadic existence to develop horticultural agricultural pursuits and night condensation,doesn&#039;t seem to me, at least, to have the air of impracticality.Africa generally needs ideas.Saharan type deserts are not strange places of hardship for those already familiar with them,they have developed their own hardness.Ideas need testing by the harder folk to see if living can be low impact and highly productive.Not the swine  and pearls reality of academic freeloaders.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cultivation has no redeemable standard compared to something else that has been cultivated,so using that understanding any grass can be cultivated within the limitsof the environment..Don&#8217;t forget that there are many flying objects today,and materials that can withstand temperatures and be remotely run!Silicon based materials from a chemical industrial process can elaborate material from deserts.Deserts are in fact,very valuable,if seen in the right light.Carrying payload of flying vehicles may not need to transport water ,but be adaptable to use nightly condensation .That type of thinking with deeply buried below the surface contacts with flying vehicles may mean more moisture could become available.If one looks at forested areas of a landscape creating the conditions for regular rainfall,it isn&#8217;t strange to imagine a technological growth under the sands replicating large tree growth,and be made almost entirely of desert made manufactured materials,until and with natural eco-system establishment.Australians should encourage existing mining operations,where underground mining can be done,to experiment with underground mining in very dry areas,without disturbing the surface.Obviously there is the practicality of converting materials to solid walls etc.Living underground,even having a nomadic existence to develop horticultural agricultural pursuits and night condensation,doesn&#8217;t seem to me, at least, to have the air of impracticality.Africa generally needs ideas.Saharan type deserts are not strange places of hardship for those already familiar with them,they have developed their own hardness.Ideas need testing by the harder folk to see if living can be low impact and highly productive.Not the swine  and pearls reality of academic freeloaders.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/11/11/cribb-on-the-future-of-food/comment-page-1/#comment-836259</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 22:52:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=10619#comment-836259</guid>
		<description>Yobbo @ 18, I&#039;m not knocking the value of grass on the Sahara, but dd @ 2 suggested it might become &quot;cultivable&quot;, which I think is rather unlikely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yobbo @ 18, I&#8217;m not knocking the value of grass on the Sahara, but dd @ 2 suggested it might become &#8220;cultivable&#8221;, which I think is rather unlikely.</p>
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		<title>By: FDB</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/11/11/cribb-on-the-future-of-food/comment-page-1/#comment-836244</link>
		<dc:creator>FDB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 21:59:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=10619#comment-836244</guid>
		<description>&quot;Tell me,does anyone here actually believe I have contributed to agricultural production,in spite of Julian Cribb!?Come on!Answer!&quot;

I honestly have no idea Phillip.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Tell me,does anyone here actually believe I have contributed to agricultural production,in spite of Julian Cribb!?Come on!Answer!&#8221;</p>
<p>I honestly have no idea Phillip.</p>
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		<title>By: Yobbo</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/11/11/cribb-on-the-future-of-food/comment-page-1/#comment-836237</link>
		<dc:creator>Yobbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 21:15:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=10619#comment-836237</guid>
		<description>&quot;On Sahara, I saw one model out of six saying it would be wetter, but only to the extent of growing a bit of grass.&quot;

Grasses coincidentally being the single most important plant on the earth in terms of feeding humans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;On Sahara, I saw one model out of six saying it would be wetter, but only to the extent of growing a bit of grass.&#8221;</p>
<p>Grasses coincidentally being the single most important plant on the earth in terms of feeding humans.</p>
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		<title>By: philip travers</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/11/11/cribb-on-the-future-of-food/comment-page-1/#comment-836152</link>
		<dc:creator>philip travers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:45:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=10619#comment-836152</guid>
		<description>With Julian Cribb exploring options,no wonder disaster seems apparent.Why doesn&#039;t he go back to Britain,and start there.These media big shots keep ruining the ground for others.Tell me,does anyone here actually believe I have contributed to agricultural production,in spite of Julian Cribb!?Come on!Answer!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With Julian Cribb exploring options,no wonder disaster seems apparent.Why doesn&#8217;t he go back to Britain,and start there.These media big shots keep ruining the ground for others.Tell me,does anyone here actually believe I have contributed to agricultural production,in spite of Julian Cribb!?Come on!Answer!</p>
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		<title>By: FDB</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/11/11/cribb-on-the-future-of-food/comment-page-1/#comment-836145</link>
		<dc:creator>FDB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:24:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=10619#comment-836145</guid>
		<description>&quot;Peak phosphorus is coming, and we need to sequester C without P attached, ’cause they’re not making any more.&quot;

But surely the sea has a lot that we could find a way of using. I&#039;m not suggesting we do, but fossil P is no more the be-all, end-all than fossil C.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Peak phosphorus is coming, and we need to sequester C without P attached, ’cause they’re not making any more.&#8221;</p>
<p>But surely the sea has a lot that we could find a way of using. I&#8217;m not suggesting we do, but fossil P is no more the be-all, end-all than fossil C.</p>
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		<title>By: andrew_m</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/11/11/cribb-on-the-future-of-food/comment-page-1/#comment-836142</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew_m</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:11:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=10619#comment-836142</guid>
		<description>The whole &quot;industrialized agriculture&quot; meme needs to be approached very cautiously when thinking about the situation here in Australia. First, the levels of external inputs that go into our broadacre farms - and even our dairy farms - are much, much lower than what a Londoner like Tudge would understand as &quot;industrialized&quot; agriculture. Second, family farms are still well over 90% of the industry (they just don&#039;t get the attention of the Cubby Stations and big pastoral houses), and the craft of farming is alive and well.  

&quot;The craft of &lt;i&gt;traditional&lt;/i&gt; farming&quot;, though, is a bit of a non-sequitur here in Oz. The tradition is one of continual change. The valley where my mother grew up has gone from Aboriginal landuse, to extensive sheep production, to dairying, to beef+tourism+vines in five generations or so. Methods for growing wheat get shaken up every 20-30 years (the classic graph is &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.regional.org.au/au/asa/2001/plenary/4/angus.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;, but doesn&#039;t include the advent of controlled-traffic farming). Come to think of it, it&#039;s a non-sequitur anywhere: traditional farming just isn&#039;t going to feed 9 billion people at +2 degrees.

Re #9: every tonne of carbon tied up in the soil takes 20 kilograms of phosphorus with it. Leave aside the cost of this ($25-50/tonne CO2-e for the P alone); leave aside the immense problems of measuring &amp; monitoring soil carbon. Peak phosphorus is coming, and we need to sequester C without P attached, &#039;cause they&#039;re not making any more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The whole &#8220;industrialized agriculture&#8221; meme needs to be approached very cautiously when thinking about the situation here in Australia. First, the levels of external inputs that go into our broadacre farms &#8211; and even our dairy farms &#8211; are much, much lower than what a Londoner like Tudge would understand as &#8220;industrialized&#8221; agriculture. Second, family farms are still well over 90% of the industry (they just don&#8217;t get the attention of the Cubby Stations and big pastoral houses), and the craft of farming is alive and well.  </p>
<p>&#8220;The craft of <i>traditional</i> farming&#8221;, though, is a bit of a non-sequitur here in Oz. The tradition is one of continual change. The valley where my mother grew up has gone from Aboriginal landuse, to extensive sheep production, to dairying, to beef+tourism+vines in five generations or so. Methods for growing wheat get shaken up every 20-30 years (the classic graph is <a href="http://www.regional.org.au/au/asa/2001/plenary/4/angus.htm" rel="nofollow">here</a>, but doesn&#8217;t include the advent of controlled-traffic farming). Come to think of it, it&#8217;s a non-sequitur anywhere: traditional farming just isn&#8217;t going to feed 9 billion people at +2 degrees.</p>
<p>Re #9: every tonne of carbon tied up in the soil takes 20 kilograms of phosphorus with it. Leave aside the cost of this ($25-50/tonne CO2-e for the P alone); leave aside the immense problems of measuring &amp; monitoring soil carbon. Peak phosphorus is coming, and we need to sequester C without P attached, &#8217;cause they&#8217;re not making any more.</p>
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		<title>By: furious balancing</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/11/11/cribb-on-the-future-of-food/comment-page-1/#comment-836130</link>
		<dc:creator>furious balancing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 09:49:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=10619#comment-836130</guid>
		<description>Paul Norton, C3 and C4 does refer to photosynthetic pathways. Sugar cane is also a C4 grass, as is corn and maize...basically warm weather grasses.  But C4 photosynthesis happens in plants other than grasses too.  We have both C3 and C4 grasses in native grassy ecosystems here.

There&#039;s a really great chapter on this stuff in the Flora or Australia Volume 43 including a section on the impact of changing atmospheric C02 concentrations.  It refers to some studies that are probably worth a read to those that may be considering altering their land management practices, because some of the what I&#039;ve read so far seems quite counter intuitive.  

It&#039;s funny this subject should pop up, as I&#039;ve dedicated my &quot;too hot to work week&quot; to doing some reading on this stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul Norton, C3 and C4 does refer to photosynthetic pathways. Sugar cane is also a C4 grass, as is corn and maize&#8230;basically warm weather grasses.  But C4 photosynthesis happens in plants other than grasses too.  We have both C3 and C4 grasses in native grassy ecosystems here.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a really great chapter on this stuff in the Flora or Australia Volume 43 including a section on the impact of changing atmospheric C02 concentrations.  It refers to some studies that are probably worth a read to those that may be considering altering their land management practices, because some of the what I&#8217;ve read so far seems quite counter intuitive.  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s funny this subject should pop up, as I&#8217;ve dedicated my &#8220;too hot to work week&#8221; to doing some reading on this stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: still@downfall</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/11/11/cribb-on-the-future-of-food/comment-page-1/#comment-836084</link>
		<dc:creator>still@downfall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 07:41:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=10619#comment-836084</guid>
		<description>2bob #12, Cribb does go into the effect of biofuels on food security. Go to Brians link, the entire document isn&#039;t too long to read. 
Another point that I believe that is important that Cribb makes is the closing of the nutriant cycle; making better use of waste.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>2bob #12, Cribb does go into the effect of biofuels on food security. Go to Brians link, the entire document isn&#8217;t too long to read.<br />
Another point that I believe that is important that Cribb makes is the closing of the nutriant cycle; making better use of waste.</p>
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		<title>By: Two Bob</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/11/11/cribb-on-the-future-of-food/comment-page-1/#comment-836052</link>
		<dc:creator>Two Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 06:30:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=10619#comment-836052</guid>
		<description>I find it strange that nobody has commented on the demand grain biofuels make on global food security. At least six percent of the world&#039;s grain is now being converted to biofuels with this figure rapidly increasing. The 400 million tonnes mentioned is 20 percent of current global grain output.
The world&#039;s farmers will be hard pressed to supply the increasing demand from population growth,increased incomes and so on without the additional unnecessary production of grain biofuels.
How about some comment on the reality of grain biofuels rather than suggesting how the supply might increase sometime in the future. 
By the way,with water the limiting factor, crops on dry marginal land may not respond to GM, smarter fertilisers and so on to the same extent where water is not the limiting factor. And there is a lot of this dryer cropping land.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find it strange that nobody has commented on the demand grain biofuels make on global food security. At least six percent of the world&#8217;s grain is now being converted to biofuels with this figure rapidly increasing. The 400 million tonnes mentioned is 20 percent of current global grain output.<br />
The world&#8217;s farmers will be hard pressed to supply the increasing demand from population growth,increased incomes and so on without the additional unnecessary production of grain biofuels.<br />
How about some comment on the reality of grain biofuels rather than suggesting how the supply might increase sometime in the future.<br />
By the way,with water the limiting factor, crops on dry marginal land may not respond to GM, smarter fertilisers and so on to the same extent where water is not the limiting factor. And there is a lot of this dryer cropping land.</p>
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		<title>By: David Irving (no relation)</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/11/11/cribb-on-the-future-of-food/comment-page-1/#comment-836035</link>
		<dc:creator>David Irving (no relation)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 05:56:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=10619#comment-836035</guid>
		<description>Wozza, I think you&#039;ve overlooked some major problems with broadacre monoculture in general, and GM crops in particular.

Industrial farming depends on inputs that we are running short of, particularly oil for fuel and herbicides, and various chemical fertilisers. Peak oil and peak phosphorous will cause havoc.

Additionally, the few successful GM crops will certainly reduce biodiversity, just at the time we need greater biodiversity to cope with rapidly changing climate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wozza, I think you&#8217;ve overlooked some major problems with broadacre monoculture in general, and GM crops in particular.</p>
<p>Industrial farming depends on inputs that we are running short of, particularly oil for fuel and herbicides, and various chemical fertilisers. Peak oil and peak phosphorous will cause havoc.</p>
<p>Additionally, the few successful GM crops will certainly reduce biodiversity, just at the time we need greater biodiversity to cope with rapidly changing climate.</p>
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		<title>By: Wozza</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/11/11/cribb-on-the-future-of-food/comment-page-1/#comment-835996</link>
		<dc:creator>Wozza</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 03:23:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=10619#comment-835996</guid>
		<description>There are a few too many questionable sneers from Cribb and his ilk - eg “neo-liberal policies … treat food as a tradeable commodity” (er, yes, and a good thing for all of us who live in cities it is that trade in food is well developed) “industrial farming has failed” - for me to regard much of this as much more than a polemic. But supposing, despite their obvious prejudices, they have come to the correct conclusion about the magnitude of the impending problem, then (at the risk of getting on a hobbyhorse I half mounted in the previous thread) they make far too little of the place of GM technology in the solution.

To say that GM has failed to deliver is a simplistic and indeed circular argument. To the extent that the technology has not been adopted as widely as it might have been, this is largely because of hugely over-onerous approval and regulatory systems.  So the argument in effect is that GM has failed to deliver because we stopped it doing so by regulating the crap out of it; this proves that we were right to regard it as of limited potential and therefore to regulate it.   

And does it not occur to these people that, if the most promising new technology is stymied by regulation, so that after big investments in research and commercialisation products don’t get to market, then the reduction in research and commercialisation effort that they complain about is inevitable and largely brought about by policies that they have themselves urged?

GM in relation to an impending food crisis is the equivalent of nuclear energy in relation to greenhouse emissions.  The problem, if there is one, is not going to be solved without it.  But over-regulation and disinformation, in both instances ironically often supported by those who are most vocal about the supposedly looming catastrophes, are ensuring that they can’t play such a role.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are a few too many questionable sneers from Cribb and his ilk &#8211; eg “neo-liberal policies … treat food as a tradeable commodity” (er, yes, and a good thing for all of us who live in cities it is that trade in food is well developed) “industrial farming has failed” &#8211; for me to regard much of this as much more than a polemic. But supposing, despite their obvious prejudices, they have come to the correct conclusion about the magnitude of the impending problem, then (at the risk of getting on a hobbyhorse I half mounted in the previous thread) they make far too little of the place of GM technology in the solution.</p>
<p>To say that GM has failed to deliver is a simplistic and indeed circular argument. To the extent that the technology has not been adopted as widely as it might have been, this is largely because of hugely over-onerous approval and regulatory systems.  So the argument in effect is that GM has failed to deliver because we stopped it doing so by regulating the crap out of it; this proves that we were right to regard it as of limited potential and therefore to regulate it.   </p>
<p>And does it not occur to these people that, if the most promising new technology is stymied by regulation, so that after big investments in research and commercialisation products don’t get to market, then the reduction in research and commercialisation effort that they complain about is inevitable and largely brought about by policies that they have themselves urged?</p>
<p>GM in relation to an impending food crisis is the equivalent of nuclear energy in relation to greenhouse emissions.  The problem, if there is one, is not going to be solved without it.  But over-regulation and disinformation, in both instances ironically often supported by those who are most vocal about the supposedly looming catastrophes, are ensuring that they can’t play such a role.</p>
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		<title>By: tony lovell</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/11/11/cribb-on-the-future-of-food/comment-page-1/#comment-835994</link>
		<dc:creator>tony lovell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 03:21:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=10619#comment-835994</guid>
		<description>We vhave some 5 billion hectares of degraded and desertifying grasslands on our planet. The simple truth is that probably half of the current problem has been directly caused by inappropriate, if entirely unintentional, human management of our land. 

Changing this management can have an immediate impact as the presentation mentioned below shows. Restoring these degraded lands helps take pressure off the rainforests and our arable lands, and also has a marked positive impact on our planet&#039;s albedo.

Please take a few minutes and look a little more into the massive and positive impact changed grazing management could have. Professor Tim Flannery has stated that sequestering carbon into the soils of our grazing lands is one of the best means we have available to us for dealing with climate change.

There is growing concern for significant action to avoid catastrophic climate change. Please take a few minutes and look through the presentation on Soil Carbon at http://www.soilcarbon.com.au

Not enough people are yet aware of Soil Carbon and the critical role it can play in helping to reverse the impacts of global warming. 

Did you know that just a 1% change in soil organic matter across just one-quarter of the World’s land area could sequester 300 billion tonnes of physical CO2? 

Recent Australian studies have shown that a 1% change can occur within a few years – and in fact up to 4% changes were measured in some areas. The management changes required to achieve these increases are very readily implemented. I hope you find the presentation of interest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We vhave some 5 billion hectares of degraded and desertifying grasslands on our planet. The simple truth is that probably half of the current problem has been directly caused by inappropriate, if entirely unintentional, human management of our land. </p>
<p>Changing this management can have an immediate impact as the presentation mentioned below shows. Restoring these degraded lands helps take pressure off the rainforests and our arable lands, and also has a marked positive impact on our planet&#8217;s albedo.</p>
<p>Please take a few minutes and look a little more into the massive and positive impact changed grazing management could have. Professor Tim Flannery has stated that sequestering carbon into the soils of our grazing lands is one of the best means we have available to us for dealing with climate change.</p>
<p>There is growing concern for significant action to avoid catastrophic climate change. Please take a few minutes and look through the presentation on Soil Carbon at <a href="http://www.soilcarbon.com.au" rel="nofollow">http://www.soilcarbon.com.au</a></p>
<p>Not enough people are yet aware of Soil Carbon and the critical role it can play in helping to reverse the impacts of global warming. </p>
<p>Did you know that just a 1% change in soil organic matter across just one-quarter of the World’s land area could sequester 300 billion tonnes of physical CO2? </p>
<p>Recent Australian studies have shown that a 1% change can occur within a few years – and in fact up to 4% changes were measured in some areas. The management changes required to achieve these increases are very readily implemented. I hope you find the presentation of interest.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Norton</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/11/11/cribb-on-the-future-of-food/comment-page-1/#comment-835972</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Norton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 01:42:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=10619#comment-835972</guid>
		<description>murph #6, I take it C3 and C4 refer to different photosythentic cycles in the different grasses reflecting the different climates in which they&#039;ve evolved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>murph #6, I take it C3 and C4 refer to different photosythentic cycles in the different grasses reflecting the different climates in which they&#8217;ve evolved.</p>
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		<title>By: David_H</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/11/11/cribb-on-the-future-of-food/comment-page-1/#comment-835971</link>
		<dc:creator>David_H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 01:34:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=10619#comment-835971</guid>
		<description>National Geographic ran this &lt;a href=&quot;http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/07/090731-green-sahara.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;story&lt;/a&gt; a while back, quoting Martin Claussen of the Max Planck Institute for Meteorology in Germany
&lt;blockquote&gt;North Africa is the area of greatest disagreement among climate change modelers.

Forecasting how global warming will affect the region is complicated by its vast size and the unpredictable influence of high-altitude winds that disperse monsoon rains&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Which I think is to a certain extent a broader issue for modelling worldwide. We don&#039;t know for certain (and possibly cannot know) what rising global temperatures will mean other than change, possible big changes. However the rate of change could be hugely important to agriculture as could be any chaotic instabilities. I&#039;m not convinced market philosophy will necessarily generate a miracle solution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>National Geographic ran this <a href="http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/07/090731-green-sahara.html" rel="nofollow">story</a> a while back, quoting Martin Claussen of the Max Planck Institute for Meteorology in Germany</p>
<blockquote><p>North Africa is the area of greatest disagreement among climate change modelers.</p>
<p>Forecasting how global warming will affect the region is complicated by its vast size and the unpredictable influence of high-altitude winds that disperse monsoon rains</p></blockquote>
<p>Which I think is to a certain extent a broader issue for modelling worldwide. We don&#8217;t know for certain (and possibly cannot know) what rising global temperatures will mean other than change, possible big changes. However the rate of change could be hugely important to agriculture as could be any chaotic instabilities. I&#8217;m not convinced market philosophy will necessarily generate a miracle solution.</p>
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		<title>By: murph the surf.</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/11/11/cribb-on-the-future-of-food/comment-page-1/#comment-835968</link>
		<dc:creator>murph the surf.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 01:22:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=10619#comment-835968</guid>
		<description>OT but some information about C3 and C4 grasses.
C3 grasses are thinner walled and have a greater digestability and often higher protein content.Ryegrass is an example.
C4 grasses have much more rapid growth and produce much extra dry matter per Ha.They also have tougher and harder to digest cellular structural material which reduces digestability and increases methane production.  The protein content is lower so growth achieved by stock is reduced.Kikuyu is a C4.
In NSW this comparison in performance is available if you look at cattle around the north coast especially the areas not on riverplains. Then travel just inland to the New England area and Dorrigo and the cattle there look like they are suffering from obesity.
C3 grasses dominate pastures across southern Australia and are suited to temperate climates.C4 grasses are widespread on the warmer parts of the coast and northern areas.
The difference in performance is stark and this would be comparing animals under similar input regimes.
We have salesmen in our area promoting growing C4 grasses and baling them for use as fuel.The economics are a bit sketchy at the moment but it may be a new enterprise for many landowners.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OT but some information about C3 and C4 grasses.<br />
C3 grasses are thinner walled and have a greater digestability and often higher protein content.Ryegrass is an example.<br />
C4 grasses have much more rapid growth and produce much extra dry matter per Ha.They also have tougher and harder to digest cellular structural material which reduces digestability and increases methane production.  The protein content is lower so growth achieved by stock is reduced.Kikuyu is a C4.<br />
In NSW this comparison in performance is available if you look at cattle around the north coast especially the areas not on riverplains. Then travel just inland to the New England area and Dorrigo and the cattle there look like they are suffering from obesity.<br />
C3 grasses dominate pastures across southern Australia and are suited to temperate climates.C4 grasses are widespread on the warmer parts of the coast and northern areas.<br />
The difference in performance is stark and this would be comparing animals under similar input regimes.<br />
We have salesmen in our area promoting growing C4 grasses and baling them for use as fuel.The economics are a bit sketchy at the moment but it may be a new enterprise for many landowners.</p>
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		<title>By: Maurice White</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/11/11/cribb-on-the-future-of-food/comment-page-1/#comment-835961</link>
		<dc:creator>Maurice White</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 01:03:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=10619#comment-835961</guid>
		<description>Growing more fresh food will reduce our carbon footprint but means getting more water, making more arable land and improving the supply chain.

Can we do it? Yes We Can.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Growing more fresh food will reduce our carbon footprint but means getting more water, making more arable land and improving the supply chain.</p>
<p>Can we do it? Yes We Can.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/11/11/cribb-on-the-future-of-food/comment-page-1/#comment-835958</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 00:53:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=10619#comment-835958</guid>
		<description>Paul, fixed thanks.

dd, I know there will be winners and losers, but I&#039;m going with what seems to be the majority view. On Sahara, I saw one model out of six saying it would be wetter, but only to the extent of growing a bit of grass.

The issue of shrinking fresh water supplies is huge, as we are over-using groundwater and the problems of sea level rise and the loss of ice caps/glaciers is very significant, especially in the Himalayas.

Most point out that the increase fertility of the air comes unstuck after the temperature goes up more than a couple degrees. Also there was a switch over from C4 to C3 dominant plant species (or the other way around) over 20 million years ago as the planet cooled.

I recall one British study saying that with each extra degree in their patch plants needed 10% extra water. The increased irregularity is also a problem.

In the Southern hemisphere, much of the extra rain falls on the Southern Ocean.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul, fixed thanks.</p>
<p>dd, I know there will be winners and losers, but I&#8217;m going with what seems to be the majority view. On Sahara, I saw one model out of six saying it would be wetter, but only to the extent of growing a bit of grass.</p>
<p>The issue of shrinking fresh water supplies is huge, as we are over-using groundwater and the problems of sea level rise and the loss of ice caps/glaciers is very significant, especially in the Himalayas.</p>
<p>Most point out that the increase fertility of the air comes unstuck after the temperature goes up more than a couple degrees. Also there was a switch over from C4 to C3 dominant plant species (or the other way around) over 20 million years ago as the planet cooled.</p>
<p>I recall one British study saying that with each extra degree in their patch plants needed 10% extra water. The increased irregularity is also a problem.</p>
<p>In the Southern hemisphere, much of the extra rain falls on the Southern Ocean.</p>
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		<title>By: dk.au</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/11/11/cribb-on-the-future-of-food/comment-page-1/#comment-835956</link>
		<dc:creator>dk.au</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 00:50:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=10619#comment-835956</guid>
		<description>Great post, Brian.
Sydney&#039;s last market gardens are to be paved over for McMansions:
http://www.smh.com.au/national/local-food-gobbled-up-by-sydneys-urban-sprawl-20090921-fyln.html

Will Steffen, who&#039;s advising Penny&#039;s Dept, has called for widespread GM cropping to cope with the anticipated shocks.  

Ballardian much?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post, Brian.<br />
Sydney&#8217;s last market gardens are to be paved over for McMansions:<br />
<a href="http://www.smh.com.au/national/local-food-gobbled-up-by-sydneys-urban-sprawl-20090921-fyln.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.smh.com.au/national/local-food-gobbled-up-by-sydneys-urban-sprawl-20090921-fyln.html</a></p>
<p>Will Steffen, who&#8217;s advising Penny&#8217;s Dept, has called for widespread GM cropping to cope with the anticipated shocks.  </p>
<p>Ballardian much?</p>
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