Comments on: Cribb on the future of food

By: Canada Guy

Canada Guy — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:43:16 +0000

We have definitely overshot the carrying capacity of the planet. By drawing down ecological capital, instead living off the returns of that capital, short term growth can be accomplished at the cost of reducing future carrying capacity, with generally disastrous results. http://www.selfdestructivebastards.com/2009/11/carrying-capacity.html

By: philip travers

philip travers — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:05:22 +0000

Cultivation has no redeemable standard compared to something else that has been cultivated,so using that understanding any grass can be cultivated within the limitsof the environment..Don’t forget that there are many flying objects today,and materials that can withstand temperatures and be remotely run!Silicon based materials from a chemical industrial process can elaborate material from deserts.Deserts are in fact,very valuable,if seen in the right light.Carrying payload of flying vehicles may not need to transport water ,but be adaptable to use nightly condensation .That type of thinking with deeply buried below the surface contacts with flying vehicles may mean more moisture could become available.If one looks at forested areas of a landscape creating the conditions for regular rainfall,it isn’t strange to imagine a technological growth under the sands replicating large tree growth,and be made almost entirely of desert made manufactured materials,until and with natural eco-system establishment.Australians should encourage existing mining operations,where underground mining can be done,to experiment with underground mining in very dry areas,without disturbing the surface.Obviously there is the practicality of converting materials to solid walls etc.Living underground,even having a nomadic existence to develop horticultural agricultural pursuits and night condensation,doesn’t seem to me, at least, to have the air of impracticality.Africa generally needs ideas.Saharan type deserts are not strange places of hardship for those already familiar with them,they have developed their own hardness.Ideas need testing by the harder folk to see if living can be low impact and highly productive.Not the swine and pearls reality of academic freeloaders.

By: Brian

Brian — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 22:52:58 +0000

Yobbo @ 18, I’m not knocking the value of grass on the Sahara, but dd @ 2 suggested it might become “cultivable”, which I think is rather unlikely.

By: FDB

FDB — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 21:59:54 +0000

“Tell me,does anyone here actually believe I have contributed to agricultural production,in spite of Julian Cribb!?Come on!Answer!”

I honestly have no idea Phillip.

By: Yobbo

Yobbo — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 21:15:26 +0000

“On Sahara, I saw one model out of six saying it would be wetter, but only to the extent of growing a bit of grass.”

Grasses coincidentally being the single most important plant on the earth in terms of feeding humans.

By: philip travers

philip travers — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:45:18 +0000

With Julian Cribb exploring options,no wonder disaster seems apparent.Why doesn’t he go back to Britain,and start there.These media big shots keep ruining the ground for others.Tell me,does anyone here actually believe I have contributed to agricultural production,in spite of Julian Cribb!?Come on!Answer!

By: FDB

FDB — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:24:43 +0000

“Peak phosphorus is coming, and we need to sequester C without P attached, ’cause they’re not making any more.”

But surely the sea has a lot that we could find a way of using. I’m not suggesting we do, but fossil P is no more the be-all, end-all than fossil C.

By: andrew_m

andrew_m — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:11:37 +0000

The whole “industrialized agriculture” meme needs to be approached very cautiously when thinking about the situation here in Australia. First, the levels of external inputs that go into our broadacre farms – and even our dairy farms – are much, much lower than what a Londoner like Tudge would understand as “industrialized” agriculture. Second, family farms are still well over 90% of the industry (they just don’t get the attention of the Cubby Stations and big pastoral houses), and the craft of farming is alive and well.

“The craft of traditional farming”, though, is a bit of a non-sequitur here in Oz. The tradition is one of continual change. The valley where my mother grew up has gone from Aboriginal landuse, to extensive sheep production, to dairying, to beef+tourism+vines in five generations or so. Methods for growing wheat get shaken up every 20-30 years (the classic graph is here, but doesn’t include the advent of controlled-traffic farming). Come to think of it, it’s a non-sequitur anywhere: traditional farming just isn’t going to feed 9 billion people at +2 degrees.

Re #9: every tonne of carbon tied up in the soil takes 20 kilograms of phosphorus with it. Leave aside the cost of this ($25-50/tonne CO2-e for the P alone); leave aside the immense problems of measuring & monitoring soil carbon. Peak phosphorus is coming, and we need to sequester C without P attached, ’cause they’re not making any more.

By: furious balancing

furious balancing — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 09:49:26 +0000

Paul Norton, C3 and C4 does refer to photosynthetic pathways. Sugar cane is also a C4 grass, as is corn and maize…basically warm weather grasses. But C4 photosynthesis happens in plants other than grasses too. We have both C3 and C4 grasses in native grassy ecosystems here.

There’s a really great chapter on this stuff in the Flora or Australia Volume 43 including a section on the impact of changing atmospheric C02 concentrations. It refers to some studies that are probably worth a read to those that may be considering altering their land management practices, because some of the what I’ve read so far seems quite counter intuitive.

It’s funny this subject should pop up, as I’ve dedicated my “too hot to work week” to doing some reading on this stuff.

By: still@downfall

still@downfall — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 07:41:36 +0000

2bob #12, Cribb does go into the effect of biofuels on food security. Go to Brians link, the entire document isn’t too long to read.
Another point that I believe that is important that Cribb makes is the closing of the nutriant cycle; making better use of waste.