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	<title>Comments on: After Copenhagen</title>
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	<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/12/22/after-copenhagen/</link>
	<description>Life, Culture and Politics from BrisVegas</description>
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		<title>By: A Meyer</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/12/22/after-copenhagen/#comment-317633</link>
		<dc:creator>A Meyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jun 2011 15:38:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=11714#comment-317633</guid>
		<description>Mark - you invited comments spcifically on what happened/nearly-happened/didn&#039;t-happen at COP-15 Copenhagen.

Here from GCI&#039;s viewpoint is a sum-up where the contraction-and-convergence principle [C&amp;C] was tabled by the UK Gov and its friends, at rates as prescribed in the UK Climate Act, how they were rebuffed . . and how this might have been better managed [they should have proposed the principle and then been willing to negotiate the rates]: -
http://www.gci.org.uk/public/COP_15_C&amp;C.swf

News from Bonn today [07 06 2011] is that there will be &#039;no-deal&#039; at COP-17 this December in Durban SA. So, as &#039;Kyoto&#039; expires, we teeter on a climate-change &#039;event-horizon&#039; over which is the black-hole of dangerous rates of climate change.

There is support for C&amp;C: - http://www.gci.org.uk/endorsements.html

If there ever is a &#039;deal&#039;, its emissions-control will be shaped something like this . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark &#8211; you invited comments spcifically on what happened/nearly-happened/didn&#8217;t-happen at COP-15 Copenhagen.</p>
<p>Here from GCI&#8217;s viewpoint is a sum-up where the contraction-and-convergence principle [C&amp;C] was tabled by the UK Gov and its friends, at rates as prescribed in the UK Climate Act, how they were rebuffed . . and how this might have been better managed [they should have proposed the principle and then been willing to negotiate the rates]: -<br />
<a href="http://www.gci.org.uk/public/COP_15_C&#038;C.swf" rel="nofollow">http://www.gci.org.uk/public/COP_15_C&#038;C.swf</a></p>
<p>News from Bonn today [07 06 2011] is that there will be &#8216;no-deal&#8217; at COP-17 this December in Durban SA. So, as &#8216;Kyoto&#8217; expires, we teeter on a climate-change &#8216;event-horizon&#8217; over which is the black-hole of dangerous rates of climate change.</p>
<p>There is support for C&amp;C: &#8211; <a href="http://www.gci.org.uk/endorsements.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.gci.org.uk/endorsements.html</a></p>
<p>If there ever is a &#8216;deal&#8217;, its emissions-control will be shaped something like this . . .</p>
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		<title>By: Elise</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/12/22/after-copenhagen/#comment-118120</link>
		<dc:creator>Elise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 13:22:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=11714#comment-118120</guid>
		<description>JohnD @38, speaking of &quot;economic damage&quot;, is anyone keeping track of:

- The cost of all this bushfire monitoring and manning (current and projected)

- The cost of lost worktime, for people who live in the Code Red areas and obey the request to leave for the duration (current and projected)

- The cost of lost worktime, for the train service failures during heat waves (current and projected)

- The cost of additional medical support and logistical support for the elderly and infirm during heat waves (current and projected)

- The projected cost of lost tourism due to the southward progression of box jellyfish into Sunshine Coast and Gold Coast tourism precincts?  Apparently a high risk if we get even a 0.5 degree increase in water temperature.

The costs are starting to mount quite rapidly.  According to the reporting on ABC 7:30 Report tonight, IIRC we had something like 4 days of extreme heat in the entire previous century, but 5 days already in this century.  That is rapid change, in my books.  It echoes the data for the glaciers - rapid change, year to year, NOT decade to decade.

Rapid change.  Repeat, rapid change.  Are we sure this is linear change?

Human beings are relatively good at adapting to slow changes in their environment.  They are dead useless at dealing with nonlinear, exponential change.  Studies show that the vast majority of humans intuitively extrapolate a straight line, and undershoot badly.

We need to start thinking about damage in a more rigorous way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JohnD @38, speaking of &#8220;economic damage&#8221;, is anyone keeping track of:</p>
<p>- The cost of all this bushfire monitoring and manning (current and projected)</p>
<p>- The cost of lost worktime, for people who live in the Code Red areas and obey the request to leave for the duration (current and projected)</p>
<p>- The cost of lost worktime, for the train service failures during heat waves (current and projected)</p>
<p>- The cost of additional medical support and logistical support for the elderly and infirm during heat waves (current and projected)</p>
<p>- The projected cost of lost tourism due to the southward progression of box jellyfish into Sunshine Coast and Gold Coast tourism precincts?  Apparently a high risk if we get even a 0.5 degree increase in water temperature.</p>
<p>The costs are starting to mount quite rapidly.  According to the reporting on ABC 7:30 Report tonight, IIRC we had something like 4 days of extreme heat in the entire previous century, but 5 days already in this century.  That is rapid change, in my books.  It echoes the data for the glaciers &#8211; rapid change, year to year, NOT decade to decade.</p>
<p>Rapid change.  Repeat, rapid change.  Are we sure this is linear change?</p>
<p>Human beings are relatively good at adapting to slow changes in their environment.  They are dead useless at dealing with nonlinear, exponential change.  Studies show that the vast majority of humans intuitively extrapolate a straight line, and undershoot badly.</p>
<p>We need to start thinking about damage in a more rigorous way.</p>
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		<title>By: John D</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/12/22/after-copenhagen/#comment-118119</link>
		<dc:creator>John D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 12:42:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=11714#comment-118119</guid>
		<description>Quite right Elise.  All the talk about &quot;legally binding targets&quot; and arguments re whether to aim at 350 or 450 ppm were a diversion that focused everyone&#039;s mind on how to minimize the economic damage they might be exposed to.
Could have been a lot more productive to focus on things that a lot of countries might agree to.  Things that made sense no matter what the truth of AGW or things that may actually save money such as saving the cost of a new power station by using power more efficiently.
Given the looming oil shortage agreeing to use regulation to limit the average consumption of new cars seems a no brainer. As you say, &lt;blockquote&gt;To hell with the politics. Let’s just do it.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quite right Elise.  All the talk about &#8220;legally binding targets&#8221; and arguments re whether to aim at 350 or 450 ppm were a diversion that focused everyone&#8217;s mind on how to minimize the economic damage they might be exposed to.<br />
Could have been a lot more productive to focus on things that a lot of countries might agree to.  Things that made sense no matter what the truth of AGW or things that may actually save money such as saving the cost of a new power station by using power more efficiently.<br />
Given the looming oil shortage agreeing to use regulation to limit the average consumption of new cars seems a no brainer. As you say,<br />
<blockquote>To hell with the politics. Let’s just do it.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Elise</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/12/22/after-copenhagen/#comment-118118</link>
		<dc:creator>Elise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 08:41:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=11714#comment-118118</guid>
		<description>After Copenhagen?  How about the new developments in car technology being shown right now in Detroit?

Fully-electric sporty cars by BMW and Audi.  Cheaper than the Tesla, and more practical.

More hybrids by VW, Honda, Toyota.

Not just concept cars but planned production models - limited availability this year and wider retail in the next couple of years.

To hell with the politics.  Let&#039;s just do it.  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After Copenhagen?  How about the new developments in car technology being shown right now in Detroit?</p>
<p>Fully-electric sporty cars by BMW and Audi.  Cheaper than the Tesla, and more practical.</p>
<p>More hybrids by VW, Honda, Toyota.</p>
<p>Not just concept cars but planned production models &#8211; limited availability this year and wider retail in the next couple of years.</p>
<p>To hell with the politics.  Let&#8217;s just do it.  <img src='http://larvatusprodeo.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Lefty E</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/12/22/after-copenhagen/#comment-118117</link>
		<dc:creator>Lefty E</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 04:25:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=11714#comment-118117</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve just done up a post at BmL  - my thoughts on &lt;a href=&quot;http://bitemylatte.blogspot.com/2010/01/on-china-at-copenhagen.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;China&#039;s game at Copenhagen&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve just done up a post at BmL  &#8211; my thoughts on <a href="http://bitemylatte.blogspot.com/2010/01/on-china-at-copenhagen.html" rel="nofollow">China&#8217;s game at Copenhagen</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Lefty E</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/12/22/after-copenhagen/#comment-118116</link>
		<dc:creator>Lefty E</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 05:41:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=11714#comment-118116</guid>
		<description>heh, DI. Sad pre-enlightnement stuff isnt it.

The Taliban, and Climate Denialists - the modern enemies of enlightenment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>heh, DI. Sad pre-enlightnement stuff isnt it.</p>
<p>The Taliban, and Climate Denialists &#8211; the modern enemies of enlightenment.</p>
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		<title>By: David Irving (no relation)</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/12/22/after-copenhagen/#comment-118115</link>
		<dc:creator>David Irving (no relation)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 05:05:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=11714#comment-118115</guid>
		<description>Now, now, Lefty E. You know perfectly well it&#039;s &lt;em&gt;weather&lt;/em&gt; when it&#039;s record heatwaves. It only becomes climate when it&#039;s sudden cold snaps during a northern hemisphere winter. Get with the program!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now, now, Lefty E. You know perfectly well it&#8217;s <em>weather</em> when it&#8217;s record heatwaves. It only becomes climate when it&#8217;s sudden cold snaps during a northern hemisphere winter. Get with the program!</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/12/22/after-copenhagen/#comment-118114</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 05:05:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=11714#comment-118114</guid>
		<description>Not from me.  I am scrupulously observing teh rules.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not from me.  I am scrupulously observing teh rules.</p>
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		<title>By: Lefty E</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/12/22/after-copenhagen/#comment-118113</link>
		<dc:creator>Lefty E</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 04:45:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=11714#comment-118113</guid>
		<description>Any theories from the denialist camp about these findings, Rob / MarkL? http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/05/2785653.htm

Or is the BOM making it all up, for some nefarious leftist purpose?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Any theories from the denialist camp about these findings, Rob / MarkL? <a href="http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/05/2785653.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/05/2785653.htm</a></p>
<p>Or is the BOM making it all up, for some nefarious leftist purpose?</p>
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		<title>By: Ronnie</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/12/22/after-copenhagen/#comment-118112</link>
		<dc:creator>Ronnie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 00:17:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=11714#comment-118112</guid>
		<description>Mark I believe you are on the money when you talk about the shifting balance of power (America becoming more of a nation among nations rather than the sole superpower). I think the most interesting thing about Copenhagen was that a completely different dynamic was at play to what we have seen at international negotiations in the past. Developing nations have now become major forces within themselves - witness the role of China, India, Brazil and South Africa. Europe&#039;s power has waned significantly - whereas  they were the driving force behind Kyoto they played little role in Copenhagen.

I believe that the days of the U.S, Britain and Europe dictating terms are therefore over. The approach from now on needs to be one of developed nations engaging intensively  with developing nations to find common solutions. The assumption pre-Copenhagen that developing nations could be persuaded to put emissions control ahead of social and economic development has been proved spectacularly wrong.

One commenter said that it is now up to the U.S and China. I believe this is overly simplistic. Both of those nations are critical, but an agreement acceptable to them is by no means guaranteed to garner broader support. I think Australia does have a very important role to play. I believe that because there is no clear superpower relationship here, the solution will be a mosaic of regionally based agreements. Australia, as a key developed country in the Asia-Pacific has an important role to play in financing efforts in surrounding developing countries, and in providing technical and other support to gear-up efforts in developing countries. This is not lefty altruism - it is in our strategic interest given that many mitigation measures will be cheaper to implement in developing countries than in Australia, and will help us to achieve our targets. Bringing developing countries online also dilutes mitigation action across a bigger pool, making it more achievable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark I believe you are on the money when you talk about the shifting balance of power (America becoming more of a nation among nations rather than the sole superpower). I think the most interesting thing about Copenhagen was that a completely different dynamic was at play to what we have seen at international negotiations in the past. Developing nations have now become major forces within themselves &#8211; witness the role of China, India, Brazil and South Africa. Europe&#8217;s power has waned significantly &#8211; whereas  they were the driving force behind Kyoto they played little role in Copenhagen.</p>
<p>I believe that the days of the U.S, Britain and Europe dictating terms are therefore over. The approach from now on needs to be one of developed nations engaging intensively  with developing nations to find common solutions. The assumption pre-Copenhagen that developing nations could be persuaded to put emissions control ahead of social and economic development has been proved spectacularly wrong.</p>
<p>One commenter said that it is now up to the U.S and China. I believe this is overly simplistic. Both of those nations are critical, but an agreement acceptable to them is by no means guaranteed to garner broader support. I think Australia does have a very important role to play. I believe that because there is no clear superpower relationship here, the solution will be a mosaic of regionally based agreements. Australia, as a key developed country in the Asia-Pacific has an important role to play in financing efforts in surrounding developing countries, and in providing technical and other support to gear-up efforts in developing countries. This is not lefty altruism &#8211; it is in our strategic interest given that many mitigation measures will be cheaper to implement in developing countries than in Australia, and will help us to achieve our targets. Bringing developing countries online also dilutes mitigation action across a bigger pool, making it more achievable.</p>
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