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	<title>Comments on: Sea Shepherd and the ICR play chicken over whaling</title>
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	<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/01/07/sea-shepherd-and-the-icr-play-chicken-over-whaling/</link>
	<description>Life, Culture and Politics from BrisVegas</description>
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		<title>By: Helen</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/01/07/sea-shepherd-and-the-icr-play-chicken-over-whaling/#comment-108403</link>
		<dc:creator>Helen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Mar 2010 02:33:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=11954#comment-108403</guid>
		<description>Right, because squirting acidic smelly stuff on whales to spoil their deliciousness and wallowing around the ocean to disrupt Japanese whalers&#039; task of carrying out unnecessary killing for a consumable of dubious value, but not exactly hurting anyone, is ... &lt;i&gt;exactly&lt;/i&gt; like Mohammad Atta flying a plane into an enormous skyscraper full of office workers.

It&#039;s the dubious legal position of the whalers that they&#039;re trying to draw attention to, and the refusal of successive Australian governments to do anything about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right, because squirting acidic smelly stuff on whales to spoil their deliciousness and wallowing around the ocean to disrupt Japanese whalers&#8217; task of carrying out unnecessary killing for a consumable of dubious value, but not exactly hurting anyone, is &#8230; <i>exactly</i> like Mohammad Atta flying a plane into an enormous skyscraper full of office workers.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s the dubious legal position of the whalers that they&#8217;re trying to draw attention to, and the refusal of successive Australian governments to do anything about it.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy McGill</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/01/07/sea-shepherd-and-the-icr-play-chicken-over-whaling/#comment-108402</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy McGill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Mar 2010 22:01:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=11954#comment-108402</guid>
		<description>After 9/11, the public has lost any patience with groups using force to try to trigger force against them.  If the Sea Shepherds had any legitimate legal position, they would be in court.  Obviously they do not, so they try to be little-almost-terrorists and try to trigger a reaction.

The Whale War TV show is a show about hate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After 9/11, the public has lost any patience with groups using force to try to trigger force against them.  If the Sea Shepherds had any legitimate legal position, they would be in court.  Obviously they do not, so they try to be little-almost-terrorists and try to trigger a reaction.</p>
<p>The Whale War TV show is a show about hate.</p>
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		<title>By: Elise</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/01/07/sea-shepherd-and-the-icr-play-chicken-over-whaling/#comment-108401</link>
		<dc:creator>Elise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 12:58:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=11954#comment-108401</guid>
		<description>On a separate aspect, it seems to me that the Rudd government is being highly inconsistent on this business of Japanese whaling.  Perhaps I haven&#039;t understood the connections?

Firstly, aren&#039;t they claiming authority over that region and that it is effectively a whale sanctuary?  If so, then why don&#039;t they have patrol boats and planes monitoring their territory?  Because...???

Secondly, aren&#039;t they claiming that they totally disapprove of hunting and killing whales in Australian waters, to the point that they are threatening legal action?  If so, then why are they allowing the use of Australian facilities to aid the Japanese in their allegedly illegal activities?  Either they approve or they don&#039;t, surely?

Thirdly, if it is claimed as a santuary under our jurisdiction, then why aren&#039;t they taking action about the killing, regardless of what may or may not be allowed in &quot;international waters&quot; (i.e. BS claims of &quot;research&quot;).  Presumably, if it were oil reserves or our edible fish stocks that were being plundered, they would be doing more than jawboning and public posturing?

Totally inconsistent - pure spin, as far as I can see.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On a separate aspect, it seems to me that the Rudd government is being highly inconsistent on this business of Japanese whaling.  Perhaps I haven&#8217;t understood the connections?</p>
<p>Firstly, aren&#8217;t they claiming authority over that region and that it is effectively a whale sanctuary?  If so, then why don&#8217;t they have patrol boats and planes monitoring their territory?  Because&#8230;???</p>
<p>Secondly, aren&#8217;t they claiming that they totally disapprove of hunting and killing whales in Australian waters, to the point that they are threatening legal action?  If so, then why are they allowing the use of Australian facilities to aid the Japanese in their allegedly illegal activities?  Either they approve or they don&#8217;t, surely?</p>
<p>Thirdly, if it is claimed as a santuary under our jurisdiction, then why aren&#8217;t they taking action about the killing, regardless of what may or may not be allowed in &#8220;international waters&#8221; (i.e. BS claims of &#8220;research&#8221;).  Presumably, if it were oil reserves or our edible fish stocks that were being plundered, they would be doing more than jawboning and public posturing?</p>
<p>Totally inconsistent &#8211; pure spin, as far as I can see.</p>
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		<title>By: sg</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/01/07/sea-shepherd-and-the-icr-play-chicken-over-whaling/#comment-108400</link>
		<dc:creator>sg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 11:20:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=11954#comment-108400</guid>
		<description>I think that&#039;s why the Sea Shepherds bought an ice breaker, Elise - if governments weren&#039;t going to enforce treaties and/or provide financial penalties for breaking them, Watson figured he might as well provide the financial penalties at the sharp end of a boat.

Which kind of makes any current bleating about dangerous activity seem a bit lame (though it may be a good tactic).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that&#8217;s why the Sea Shepherds bought an ice breaker, Elise &#8211; if governments weren&#8217;t going to enforce treaties and/or provide financial penalties for breaking them, Watson figured he might as well provide the financial penalties at the sharp end of a boat.</p>
<p>Which kind of makes any current bleating about dangerous activity seem a bit lame (though it may be a good tactic).</p>
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		<title>By: Elise</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/01/07/sea-shepherd-and-the-icr-play-chicken-over-whaling/#comment-108399</link>
		<dc:creator>Elise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:48:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=11954#comment-108399</guid>
		<description>Sg, you still missed my point that there is no counter financial or moral driver.

Financial drivers will work as well or better than moral ones, as we know with African poachers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sg, you still missed my point that there is no counter financial or moral driver.</p>
<p>Financial drivers will work as well or better than moral ones, as we know with African poachers.</p>
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		<title>By: sg</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/01/07/sea-shepherd-and-the-icr-play-chicken-over-whaling/#comment-108398</link>
		<dc:creator>sg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:35:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=11954#comment-108398</guid>
		<description>Elise, I think you&#039;ll find that Japanese people have a fond regard for whales. Right now the show &quot;oceans&quot; is being played throughout Japan and is advertised with whales. They just happen to have the same fond regard for them that they might have for bears, kangaroos, foxes, etc. It&#039;s not as if everyone in England who supports hunting has not seen &lt;i&gt;the fox and the hounds&lt;/i&gt;, is it? Japanese people aren&#039;t unsophisticated rubes who know nothing about the environment or the animal world - they just happen not to think whales should be on a pedestal. And their animation industry, particularly, is well capable of making all sorts of movies about relationships between people and animals (of many different sorts - haha).

There seems to be a real inability of people outside of Japan to understand why Japanese people might not credit our claims about whales&#039; specialness. Until we can convince them of that claim (which is unlikely) we&#039;re just going to have to accept that they want to eat whales. Or at least, they are willing to subsidise a whale-eating industry so long as the rural seats that depend on it have a significant say in their Diet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Elise, I think you&#8217;ll find that Japanese people have a fond regard for whales. Right now the show &#8220;oceans&#8221; is being played throughout Japan and is advertised with whales. They just happen to have the same fond regard for them that they might have for bears, kangaroos, foxes, etc. It&#8217;s not as if everyone in England who supports hunting has not seen <i>the fox and the hounds</i>, is it? Japanese people aren&#8217;t unsophisticated rubes who know nothing about the environment or the animal world &#8211; they just happen not to think whales should be on a pedestal. And their animation industry, particularly, is well capable of making all sorts of movies about relationships between people and animals (of many different sorts &#8211; haha).</p>
<p>There seems to be a real inability of people outside of Japan to understand why Japanese people might not credit our claims about whales&#8217; specialness. Until we can convince them of that claim (which is unlikely) we&#8217;re just going to have to accept that they want to eat whales. Or at least, they are willing to subsidise a whale-eating industry so long as the rural seats that depend on it have a significant say in their Diet.</p>
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		<title>By: Elise</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/01/07/sea-shepherd-and-the-icr-play-chicken-over-whaling/#comment-108397</link>
		<dc:creator>Elise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:21:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=11954#comment-108397</guid>
		<description>Wilful @146:  &quot;I can’t see how this was a bad thing for the Sea Shpeherds. They are all about media and perception, and losing a boat to those ‘barbarous whalers’ is precisely what they would have wanted. In this case, the whalers are their willing dupes.&quot;

I suspect that you may have something there.

People only seem to act when something goes severely wrong, and it hits a nerve.  A bad intersection is not fixed, despite complaints, until a fatality occurs.  Warnings about near misses don&#039;t cut much ice.  Warnings about technical problems with the space shuttle were not heeded until a major disaster and deaths.  There are countless examples.

Arguably, if someone on the Ady Gil had died as a result, then the Japanese would be on the receiving end of a lot more global criticism.  As it was, it counts as a &quot;near miss&quot;, and probably has negligible financial or moral impact on the Japanese establishment.

The Norwegians had a long tradition of hunting Minke whales in Northern Norway, and did not see a problem until they had a fledgling whale-watching industry (started around late-1990&#039;s I believe).  Now there is a counter-voice inside their own country, with a financial stake in getting their negative image changed.

I went on one of their whale-watching tours off Lofoton in 1999 (my tiny contribution in support of the whales), but have not since followed how the dynamics of that has played out.  Presumably, it would depend on the level of tourism jobs and dollars for the locals, and expected future growth, compared with the returns from killing whales.

Why doesn&#039;t someone think of making a kids movie (in Japanese) about a Japanese child and saving a stranded baby whale?  Let the parents then explain away their actions to their kids....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wilful @146:  &#8220;I can’t see how this was a bad thing for the Sea Shpeherds. They are all about media and perception, and losing a boat to those ‘barbarous whalers’ is precisely what they would have wanted. In this case, the whalers are their willing dupes.&#8221;</p>
<p>I suspect that you may have something there.</p>
<p>People only seem to act when something goes severely wrong, and it hits a nerve.  A bad intersection is not fixed, despite complaints, until a fatality occurs.  Warnings about near misses don&#8217;t cut much ice.  Warnings about technical problems with the space shuttle were not heeded until a major disaster and deaths.  There are countless examples.</p>
<p>Arguably, if someone on the Ady Gil had died as a result, then the Japanese would be on the receiving end of a lot more global criticism.  As it was, it counts as a &#8220;near miss&#8221;, and probably has negligible financial or moral impact on the Japanese establishment.</p>
<p>The Norwegians had a long tradition of hunting Minke whales in Northern Norway, and did not see a problem until they had a fledgling whale-watching industry (started around late-1990&#8242;s I believe).  Now there is a counter-voice inside their own country, with a financial stake in getting their negative image changed.</p>
<p>I went on one of their whale-watching tours off Lofoton in 1999 (my tiny contribution in support of the whales), but have not since followed how the dynamics of that has played out.  Presumably, it would depend on the level of tourism jobs and dollars for the locals, and expected future growth, compared with the returns from killing whales.</p>
<p>Why doesn&#8217;t someone think of making a kids movie (in Japanese) about a Japanese child and saving a stranded baby whale?  Let the parents then explain away their actions to their kids&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: wilful</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/01/07/sea-shepherd-and-the-icr-play-chicken-over-whaling/#comment-108396</link>
		<dc:creator>wilful</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 00:18:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=11954#comment-108396</guid>
		<description>Horses are equally sacrosanct for some reason. In the US, there is a big push to legislate to make it completely illegal to butcher horses for human consumption. Which is just plain odd - you&#039;re still allowed to make dog food out of them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Horses are equally sacrosanct for some reason. In the US, there is a big push to legislate to make it completely illegal to butcher horses for human consumption. Which is just plain odd &#8211; you&#8217;re still allowed to make dog food out of them.</p>
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		<title>By: sg</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/01/07/sea-shepherd-and-the-icr-play-chicken-over-whaling/#comment-108395</link>
		<dc:creator>sg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 00:06:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=11954#comment-108395</guid>
		<description>wilful, it may not surprise you to know that my Japanese friends are a little confused by the hypocrisy you identify, and wonder why Japanese people should be forced to not eat an animal that Australians don&#039;t want them too (when they talk about this with me at all, which is rarely, it not being a significant issue in Japan).

I tell them the only reason that I can think of for the hypocrisy (and I think it&#039;s the real reason): non-Japanese think Whales are special animals, barely even animals at all, and see killing them as on a par with killing people. I&#039;ve had it pointed out to me that this is nitpicking, but westerners tend to be pretty sure of this position. I think Japanese might just think we&#039;ve been seduced by the majesty of the beast, but in any case it&#039;s irrelevant - like the Canadian seal cull, this is an issue in a few key rural seats in Japan, it has nationalist overtones and ordinary Japanese eat so little whale meat that the issue doesn&#039;t even register to them. Which is perhaps why the sea shepherds have to take the path they have, since dialogue in such a situation is unlikely to work.

I also wonder if successive governments of oz have been seeing this issue as free publicity for their legal claims to that stretch of ocean.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>wilful, it may not surprise you to know that my Japanese friends are a little confused by the hypocrisy you identify, and wonder why Japanese people should be forced to not eat an animal that Australians don&#8217;t want them too (when they talk about this with me at all, which is rarely, it not being a significant issue in Japan).</p>
<p>I tell them the only reason that I can think of for the hypocrisy (and I think it&#8217;s the real reason): non-Japanese think Whales are special animals, barely even animals at all, and see killing them as on a par with killing people. I&#8217;ve had it pointed out to me that this is nitpicking, but westerners tend to be pretty sure of this position. I think Japanese might just think we&#8217;ve been seduced by the majesty of the beast, but in any case it&#8217;s irrelevant &#8211; like the Canadian seal cull, this is an issue in a few key rural seats in Japan, it has nationalist overtones and ordinary Japanese eat so little whale meat that the issue doesn&#8217;t even register to them. Which is perhaps why the sea shepherds have to take the path they have, since dialogue in such a situation is unlikely to work.</p>
<p>I also wonder if successive governments of oz have been seeing this issue as free publicity for their legal claims to that stretch of ocean.</p>
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		<title>By: wilful</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/01/07/sea-shepherd-and-the-icr-play-chicken-over-whaling/#comment-108394</link>
		<dc:creator>wilful</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 23:09:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=11954#comment-108394</guid>
		<description>Well taht last link looks conclusive to me, and the collision was most directly caused by the japanese skipper. And,it goes without saying, most indirectly caused by the Sea Shepherds.

I can&#039;t see how this was a bad thing for the Sea Shpeherds. They are all about media and perception, and losing a boat to those ‘barbarous whalers’ is precisely what they would have wanted. In this case, the whalers are their willing dupes.

More generally, my view on the hunting and killing of common cetacean species is that if you eat meat (beef, lamb, pork) without knowing where it comes from, but can’t stand the thought of whales being harpooned, you’re a damned hypocrite and ought to STFU.

Common species of whales are no more (or less!) sacred than any other large herbivore that we utilise for our own pleasures. IMHO it’s less cruel to hunt whales than to feedlot steers or to factory farm pigs.

You don&#039;t have to be a vegetarian to eat sustainably and ethically, but you do have to think about what you eat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well taht last link looks conclusive to me, and the collision was most directly caused by the japanese skipper. And,it goes without saying, most indirectly caused by the Sea Shepherds.</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t see how this was a bad thing for the Sea Shpeherds. They are all about media and perception, and losing a boat to those ‘barbarous whalers’ is precisely what they would have wanted. In this case, the whalers are their willing dupes.</p>
<p>More generally, my view on the hunting and killing of common cetacean species is that if you eat meat (beef, lamb, pork) without knowing where it comes from, but can’t stand the thought of whales being harpooned, you’re a damned hypocrite and ought to STFU.</p>
<p>Common species of whales are no more (or less!) sacred than any other large herbivore that we utilise for our own pleasures. IMHO it’s less cruel to hunt whales than to feedlot steers or to factory farm pigs.</p>
<p>You don&#8217;t have to be a vegetarian to eat sustainably and ethically, but you do have to think about what you eat.</p>
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