sounds nice. Perhaps some examples of the defeatocrats attempts at consensus and consent to support your theory would be nice.

That would descend into a juvenile “You started it!” “No, you started it!” argument. Please point out where I suggested that the Republicans started it.

The problem is that neither side wants to stop it. As Japerz suggested on another thread, US politics is exhausted. The question is, how might a viable governing consensus arise out of this mess?

FTR, I think that US politics is a fair reflection of US society. The structural inevitability is that people in the US will have to cope with reduced means and circumscribed ends. The problem is that the political system hasn’t worked out how to tell the American people this truth. Instead, more elaborate lies and more evolved denunciations are the chief products of American political elites so far.

Razor, while I hoped that Obama and Rudd wouldn’t be disappointing, I was always pretty sure that they wouldn’t actually have any choice but to do so, and I’m pretty sure I’ve said that on a number of occasions before either of them were elected.

As for the descent into irrationality of the US polity, that’s largely down to the Republicans. They’ve been outright hostile to calm, reasoned discussion since at least Reagan.

“The world needs a viable and rational US.” – It was the left that voted Barrack Hussein Obama into office. The democrates have a majority in both houses. They are th ones stuffing it up. Perhaps it is better that the republicans run it then.

David – I just love the way all the left pundits are now saying that Obi Wan (and Krudd) was always going to be a dissapointment. Not much evidence of that sentiment ever being expressed before or when they were elected. No one on their side calling them out on their election promises back then, or now either.

What utter tosh. I’m 99.9% certain that nearly every post here and on my blog for another expressed the opinion that Obama was no leftist paragon, that at best he was a pragmatic centrist who would not deliver on a truly progressive wishlist. Many of us would have preferred Hillary, and she’s another pragmatic centrist who was never going to tick all the progressive wishlist boxes either.

Both of them were still considered better than the Republican alternative. This doesn’t mean that we actually bought into the unicorn/rainbow parodies bandied about by the right.

Edited to add: the opinion on KRudd was eerily parallel in the leadup to the Oz election.

As for the claims of stupidity – apart from disagreeing with Bush on politics and religion I have yet to see any hard evidence of him being stupid or corrupt – just unsupported allegations (unlike Clinton, who is a proven liar – the guy has more front than Dolly Parton).

I have contended for some time that the US political system is seriously derationated.

One difference, among many, between Razor and myself is that he, somewhat bizarrely, derives partisan pleasure or pain from US political events. Whereas, I don’t.

Instead, I see the web of consensus and consent that must exist to make a peaceful constitutional political system viable, being shredded in the US.

The world needs a viable and rational US. I see both of those qualities disappearing. One piece of evidence for that disappearance, in my opinion, is that coalitions of political forces can find fewer rational reasons for existence. Into that vacuum rush special interests, cronyism, paranoia and bellicosity.

People who call themselves “conservative” seem to be utterly riven over questions of the role of faith in public life, the legitimate limits of personal liberty, and the proper nature of the US political economy. Is a conservative in favour of globalisation? Is a conservative in favour of resisting major change to the US financial system? Is a conservative more or less likely to be isolationist?

Where do you find a politically viable “conservative” in that mess?

It seems to me that “conservatives” are united only by their hatred of “liberalism”, itself a word that is almost impossible to define.

However, he’s streets ahead of the last incumbent. That winning combination of stupidity and corruption did serious damage.

Obi Wan is doing such a great job isn’t he.