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	<title>Comments on: Government: Don&#039;t feed the trolls</title>
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	<description>Life, Culture and Politics from BrisVegas</description>
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		<title>By: anthony nolan</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/03/05/government-dont-feed-the-trolls/#comment-102244</link>
		<dc:creator>anthony nolan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 20:38:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=12967#comment-102244</guid>
		<description>Sorry if you feel that I&#039;ve taken it off thread. You are quite specific about the social networking sites which I tend not to use or differentiate from the social use of the tubes as a whole. Y-T is somehwere in the middle I guess as it invites you to &#039;broadcast yourself&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry if you feel that I&#8217;ve taken it off thread. You are quite specific about the social networking sites which I tend not to use or differentiate from the social use of the tubes as a whole. Y-T is somehwere in the middle I guess as it invites you to &#8216;broadcast yourself&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/03/05/government-dont-feed-the-trolls/#comment-102243</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 10:32:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=12967#comment-102243</guid>
		<description>@15 - anthony, that may well be so, but I wasn&#039;t talking about pr0n in the post, but rather about (for instance) the largely textual signification of racist speech on social networking sites.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@15 &#8211; anthony, that may well be so, but I wasn&#8217;t talking about pr0n in the post, but rather about (for instance) the largely textual signification of racist speech on social networking sites.</p>
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		<title>By: anthony nolan</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/03/05/government-dont-feed-the-trolls/#comment-102242</link>
		<dc:creator>anthony nolan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 10:19:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=12967#comment-102242</guid>
		<description>Shingle: an interesting experience and account of the sort of thing that is becoming commonplace. And where did they get the idea to film and broadcast this poor kid&#039;s humiliation? It is a doubling of bullying trauma to do that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shingle: an interesting experience and account of the sort of thing that is becoming commonplace. And where did they get the idea to film and broadcast this poor kid&#8217;s humiliation? It is a doubling of bullying trauma to do that.</p>
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		<title>By: Shingle</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/03/05/government-dont-feed-the-trolls/#comment-102241</link>
		<dc:creator>Shingle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 05:06:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=12967#comment-102241</guid>
		<description>Agree with Erik above that variations are likely - some youngsters likely to be more vulnerable than others. I had an odd experience a few years ago, where I became aware that in my daughter&#039;s class, (last year of primary school) a bunch of lads held another kid (a bit of an outsider) down and hurt him until he cried, refusing to let him go while one of the boys proceeded to film it on his mobile - this was during a chaotic but &#039;supervised&#039; class party as a farewell for the substitute teacher (who according to my daughter had been actually nodding off in the class on some other days so maybe not really watching closely?). Someone sent the youtube link to my daughter who, sitting at our computer reacted with disgust and told me some of the story. She had known about the incident but not that it would be put on the net (the teacher had apparently dealt with it on the day but clearly didn&#039;t know about the filming). I felt I had to tell the school as this kid&#039;s humilation video was still being bandied around. result was:  All the parents were horrified but some didn&#039;t believe their kids had been involved. The principal didn&#039;t really handle the incident that well, suspending only the one with the phone and not the ones holding the kid down, and also spilling that I had phoned so my daughter then had to defend herself against the &#039;dobber&#039; accusations (she hadn&#039;t known I would ring and I had asked for discretion from the school). I knew some of the parents as educated, intelligent people, but it was all so ugly I think they just didn&#039;t want to believe it. I reckon it is pretty powerful technology to give to 12 year old boys who are totally into trying to impress the other guys or win favour. I&#039;m not sure the incident would have been revealed if I hadn&#039;t rung and I would never have known about it if my daughter hadn&#039;t told me. I am not sure that we really know yet how much impact this stuff is having on kids and what they consider to be normal behaviour. I personally think some kind of moderated space for kids is not a bad idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agree with Erik above that variations are likely &#8211; some youngsters likely to be more vulnerable than others. I had an odd experience a few years ago, where I became aware that in my daughter&#8217;s class, (last year of primary school) a bunch of lads held another kid (a bit of an outsider) down and hurt him until he cried, refusing to let him go while one of the boys proceeded to film it on his mobile &#8211; this was during a chaotic but &#8216;supervised&#8217; class party as a farewell for the substitute teacher (who according to my daughter had been actually nodding off in the class on some other days so maybe not really watching closely?). Someone sent the youtube link to my daughter who, sitting at our computer reacted with disgust and told me some of the story. She had known about the incident but not that it would be put on the net (the teacher had apparently dealt with it on the day but clearly didn&#8217;t know about the filming). I felt I had to tell the school as this kid&#8217;s humilation video was still being bandied around. result was:  All the parents were horrified but some didn&#8217;t believe their kids had been involved. The principal didn&#8217;t really handle the incident that well, suspending only the one with the phone and not the ones holding the kid down, and also spilling that I had phoned so my daughter then had to defend herself against the &#8216;dobber&#8217; accusations (she hadn&#8217;t known I would ring and I had asked for discretion from the school). I knew some of the parents as educated, intelligent people, but it was all so ugly I think they just didn&#8217;t want to believe it. I reckon it is pretty powerful technology to give to 12 year old boys who are totally into trying to impress the other guys or win favour. I&#8217;m not sure the incident would have been revealed if I hadn&#8217;t rung and I would never have known about it if my daughter hadn&#8217;t told me. I am not sure that we really know yet how much impact this stuff is having on kids and what they consider to be normal behaviour. I personally think some kind of moderated space for kids is not a bad idea.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Sykes</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/03/05/government-dont-feed-the-trolls/#comment-102240</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Sykes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 02:53:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=12967#comment-102240</guid>
		<description>antony nolan: absolutely agree. i would not send a copy of my bank account details to a &quot;friend&quot; in africa either. but many who are, for whatever reason, socially excluded, do. there seems to be no open system of internet use education, you kinda stumble across it, or you play on line all day and all nite with no sense of critical thinking at all...this link is extreme i know...but..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8551122.stm

and i am with helen @13 this is not the tools (telephone, smoke signals) fault...but rather our current inability to de-mystify it ..without the MSM sensationalism on one hand (its inherently evil and rots the brain) or www2 evangelism on the other (it’s a force for open content and better democracy).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>antony nolan: absolutely agree. i would not send a copy of my bank account details to a &#8220;friend&#8221; in africa either. but many who are, for whatever reason, socially excluded, do. there seems to be no open system of internet use education, you kinda stumble across it, or you play on line all day and all nite with no sense of critical thinking at all&#8230;this link is extreme i know&#8230;but..</p>
<p><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8551122.stm" rel="nofollow">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8551122.stm</a></p>
<p>and i am with helen @13 this is not the tools (telephone, smoke signals) fault&#8230;but rather our current inability to de-mystify it ..without the MSM sensationalism on one hand (its inherently evil and rots the brain) or www2 evangelism on the other (it’s a force for open content and better democracy).</p>
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		<title>By: David Irving (no relation)</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/03/05/government-dont-feed-the-trolls/#comment-102239</link>
		<dc:creator>David Irving (no relation)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 02:53:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=12967#comment-102239</guid>
		<description>Aah, fuckit! &quot;yours&quot;, not &quot;your&#039;s&quot;. I wish there was a [back] button for those occasions when you see a blunder whizzing into cyberspace just too late ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aah, fuckit! &#8220;yours&#8221;, not &#8220;your&#8217;s&#8221;. I wish there was a [back] button for those occasions when you see a blunder whizzing into cyberspace just too late &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: David Irving (no relation)</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/03/05/government-dont-feed-the-trolls/#comment-102238</link>
		<dc:creator>David Irving (no relation)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 02:51:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=12967#comment-102238</guid>
		<description>anthony @ 15, I wish (but daren&#039;t hope) that Conroy&#039;s view of internet access was as nuanced as your&#039;s. Thank you for an extremely thought-provoking comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>anthony @ 15, I wish (but daren&#8217;t hope) that Conroy&#8217;s view of internet access was as nuanced as your&#8217;s. Thank you for an extremely thought-provoking comment.</p>
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		<title>By: anthony nolan</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/03/05/government-dont-feed-the-trolls/#comment-102237</link>
		<dc:creator>anthony nolan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 02:26:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=12967#comment-102237</guid>
		<description>Erik Sykes: I quite agree that the issue is fraught with difficulties not the least of the sort you mention. My own dealings with my own yoof around internet pa)wn and other tube nasties suggests that within families with sufficient cultural capital there is a strong &#039;yuk&#039; factor response to it. However, my work exposes me to numerous cases of the opposite response whereby what is seen is replicated at least experimentally. In those instances socio-economic class and education appear to be a key factors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Erik Sykes: I quite agree that the issue is fraught with difficulties not the least of the sort you mention. My own dealings with my own yoof around internet pa)wn and other tube nasties suggests that within families with sufficient cultural capital there is a strong &#8216;yuk&#8217; factor response to it. However, my work exposes me to numerous cases of the opposite response whereby what is seen is replicated at least experimentally. In those instances socio-economic class and education appear to be a key factors.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Sykes</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/03/05/government-dont-feed-the-trolls/#comment-102236</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Sykes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 01:32:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=12967#comment-102236</guid>
		<description>some schools have started to ban student access altogether, some schools ban social networking ..this feeds two things: the students sensation that being online is ubiquitously naughty and exciting and the parents MSM tainted view that all of this is &quot;out of control&quot;...rather perhaps better to allow internet use across the board, to actually have teachers join in and thereby promote some sensible and responsible use...it’s the old &quot;don&#039;t promote condoms you&#039;ll insight a sex riot&quot; story...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>some schools have started to ban student access altogether, some schools ban social networking ..this feeds two things: the students sensation that being online is ubiquitously naughty and exciting and the parents MSM tainted view that all of this is &#8220;out of control&#8221;&#8230;rather perhaps better to allow internet use across the board, to actually have teachers join in and thereby promote some sensible and responsible use&#8230;it’s the old &#8220;don&#8217;t promote condoms you&#8217;ll insight a sex riot&#8221; story&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: anthony nolan</title>
		<link>http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/03/05/government-dont-feed-the-trolls/#comment-102235</link>
		<dc:creator>anthony nolan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 00:31:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://larvatusprodeo.net/?p=12967#comment-102235</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the article and links to the discussion Mark. I&#039;ll take up the issue with your point:

&quot;(b) The direction of causation is the wrong way round. It’s not that the internet encourages people to do dumb and wrong things. It’s that people do dumb and wrong things, and they do them on the internet too.&quot;

There&#039;s a problem here in relation to adolescent developmental psychology which is that adolescent males in particular are very influenced by what they see. They are much less relational than females in terms of learned behaviour and much more experimental so that witnessing someone do something opens the portal to reproduction of that act. This is at the core of the problem in relation to adolescent access to internet pornography. Young males, presumably females as well, are learning about a range of possible sexual practices through visual representations on the tubes. Some of these practices are, to say the least, &quot;extreme&quot;.

Please note: I&#039;m not talking about access to images involving minors and Pr0n but images widely available at the click of a mouse that represent adults and young men and women doin&#039; a very strange range of things.

It is exactly the availability and ubiquity of this material that has fuelled Hamilton&#039;s expressed reservations and Conroy&#039;s damn filter. We shouldn&#039;t avoid the fact that there appears to be significant support for the filter based on a widespread notion that developing adolescents and younger people ought not to be exposed to that material. Yes, I know that net-nanny software on the home computer is the solution, but not all parents are that responsible and it is easy enough for teenage kids to utilise unguarded computers in mates&#039; houses to have a look.

At core the point is that for adolescent males visual representations of sex are powerful educators of desire. The problem is that the realm in which their desire is being educated is out of anyone&#039;s social control. It was not ever thus. So far the broad left has not responded adequately to this issue and consequently in failing to do so we have ceded political and moral authority to the moral straighteners at some potential cost to the right to freedom of communication.

I&#039;m as much worried by representations of violence and the way they impact young men as by perverse sexualised images. Youtube is a major offender here: they run anything and searching it for the topics &quot;street fights&quot; and &quot;school fights&quot; will deliver hundreds if not thousands of hits of real and frequently sickening violence. There has already been one terribly tragic consequence from exposure to this material. About 18 months ago in the inner west of Sydney two 14 year old males wanted to experiment with fighting. Real fighting. They went to a park after school and agreed to attack and defend but neither had any self defence experience. They were best friends. They had no grievance with each other. They wanted to fight to see what it was like as they had been watching Y-T vids and after school fighting was getting a lot of airplay at the time. Tragically one of the kids had a clotting disorder and suffered a cerebral haemorrhage after taking a hit from his mate. He died. Many lives broken and shattered from a single misapprehension which is that fighting is groovy and masculinising. Just a couple of skinny little kids reproducing what they&#039;d seen on the tubes.

It&#039;d be terrific if the owners of the tubes policed their own content with some level of sophisticated knowledge about developmental psychology but they haven&#039;t so far and I&#039;m not expecting it soon. In the meantime Conroy is on a march.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the article and links to the discussion Mark. I&#8217;ll take up the issue with your point:</p>
<p>&#8220;(b) The direction of causation is the wrong way round. It’s not that the internet encourages people to do dumb and wrong things. It’s that people do dumb and wrong things, and they do them on the internet too.&#8221;</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a problem here in relation to adolescent developmental psychology which is that adolescent males in particular are very influenced by what they see. They are much less relational than females in terms of learned behaviour and much more experimental so that witnessing someone do something opens the portal to reproduction of that act. This is at the core of the problem in relation to adolescent access to internet pornography. Young males, presumably females as well, are learning about a range of possible sexual practices through visual representations on the tubes. Some of these practices are, to say the least, &#8220;extreme&#8221;.</p>
<p>Please note: I&#8217;m not talking about access to images involving minors and Pr0n but images widely available at the click of a mouse that represent adults and young men and women doin&#8217; a very strange range of things.</p>
<p>It is exactly the availability and ubiquity of this material that has fuelled Hamilton&#8217;s expressed reservations and Conroy&#8217;s damn filter. We shouldn&#8217;t avoid the fact that there appears to be significant support for the filter based on a widespread notion that developing adolescents and younger people ought not to be exposed to that material. Yes, I know that net-nanny software on the home computer is the solution, but not all parents are that responsible and it is easy enough for teenage kids to utilise unguarded computers in mates&#8217; houses to have a look.</p>
<p>At core the point is that for adolescent males visual representations of sex are powerful educators of desire. The problem is that the realm in which their desire is being educated is out of anyone&#8217;s social control. It was not ever thus. So far the broad left has not responded adequately to this issue and consequently in failing to do so we have ceded political and moral authority to the moral straighteners at some potential cost to the right to freedom of communication.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m as much worried by representations of violence and the way they impact young men as by perverse sexualised images. Youtube is a major offender here: they run anything and searching it for the topics &#8220;street fights&#8221; and &#8220;school fights&#8221; will deliver hundreds if not thousands of hits of real and frequently sickening violence. There has already been one terribly tragic consequence from exposure to this material. About 18 months ago in the inner west of Sydney two 14 year old males wanted to experiment with fighting. Real fighting. They went to a park after school and agreed to attack and defend but neither had any self defence experience. They were best friends. They had no grievance with each other. They wanted to fight to see what it was like as they had been watching Y-T vids and after school fighting was getting a lot of airplay at the time. Tragically one of the kids had a clotting disorder and suffered a cerebral haemorrhage after taking a hit from his mate. He died. Many lives broken and shattered from a single misapprehension which is that fighting is groovy and masculinising. Just a couple of skinny little kids reproducing what they&#8217;d seen on the tubes.</p>
<p>It&#8217;d be terrific if the owners of the tubes policed their own content with some level of sophisticated knowledge about developmental psychology but they haven&#8217;t so far and I&#8217;m not expecting it soon. In the meantime Conroy is on a march.</p>
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