There’s been some discussion of the deadly IDF attack on the humanitarian aid flotilla attempting to breach the blockade of Gaza already in both the Saturday Salon and Spotlight the Spin threads. This needs its own thread. Two quotes to kick off:
Yossi Alpher, a political analyst and former adviser to Ehud Barak, the Israeli defence minister, described the dawn operation as a “fiasco” that would only deepen Israel’s problems. [source: Financial Times]
The opposite of Entebbe – Then, Israeli commandos rescued a planeful of hostages held in Uganda at the cost of just one casualty, the Israeli commanding officer. The IDF seemed to combine fearlessness, excellence in performance, and scrupulous respect for human life. Today, the IDF made itself look as clumsy and careless of human life as the Russian Army.
Guardian: Israel accused of state terrorism after assault on flotilla carrying Gaza aid
Just noting for those who may have missed this detail – 5 out of 6 boats were seized peacefully. The IDF only opened fire on the sixth boat, allegedly in self-defence. Claims and counterclaims about why the sixth boat was considered such a threat will no doubt fly over the next few days.
Guardian: Israel accused of state terrorism after assault on flotilla carrying Gaza aid
Just noting for those who may have missed this detail – 5 out of 6 boats were seized peacefully. The IDF only opened fire on the sixth boat, allegedly in self-defence. Claims and counterclaims about why the sixth boat was considered such a threat will no doubt fly over the next few days.
Unhelpfully for the occupants of the aid convoy, they were on Al-Jazeera TV the day before, chanting stuff like “Kill the Jews”, calling in song for genocide against Jews, and stating that their aim was to either sail to Gaza, or provoke Israel into killing them.
Unhelpfully for the occupants of the aid convoy, they were on Al-Jazeera TV the day before, chanting stuff like “Kill the Jews”, calling in song for genocide against Jews, and stating that their aim was to either sail to Gaza, or provoke Israel into killing them.
Your source, SATP?
Your source, SATP?
When did armed assailants boarding vessels in international waters stopped being piracy? I must have missed that.
When did armed assailants boarding vessels in international waters stopped being piracy? I must have missed that.
The IDF claim they acted in self-defense while “storming”a ship??
The IDF claim they acted in self-defense while “storming”a ship??
Since SATP’s claims aren’t in the Israeli media (Haaretz and Jerusalem Post), or in Al Jazeera, I suggest they are bogus and amount to defamation of the victims.
At any event, SATP’s unsubtle subtext here is that it’s ok to kill people if they express objectionable ideas. Is this your intent, SATP?
Since SATP’s claims aren’t in the Israeli media (Haaretz and Jerusalem Post), or in Al Jazeera, I suggest they are bogus and amount to defamation of the victims.
At any event, SATP’s unsubtle subtext here is that it’s ok to kill people if they express objectionable ideas. Is this your intent, SATP?
Thanks tigtog for getting this up. I was just working on something myself, which I’ll put in as a comment:
The killing of nine activists and the wounding of more aboard the Marmara, part of a convoy of ships attempting to bring aid past the Israeli maritime blockade of the Gaza strip, by the Israeli military, has provoked a storm of outrage from individuals and governments around the world. As of now, the latest news is that one of the wounded is <a HREF="including an Australian shot in the leg – though their identity has not been confirmed it’s not Fairfax reporters Kate Geraghty and Paul McGeough, who are both reported to be safe.
The Israeli government has claimed that the Israeli forces fired in self-defence after being attacked. From an interview with their spinner Mark Regev on Lateline last night:
Some of the video of the incident released so far seems to provide support for some of these claims. A video from Russia Today via The Economist (HT tigtog) seems to show one of the activists aboard the boat carrying a wooden pole, and subsequently shows an activist (who may have been the same one) repeatedly hitting an armed Israeli soldier with a long implement. This video from ABC news (which appears to be night-vision footage from the Israeli military) also shows people in dark clothing (which presumably indicates the soldiers) being attacked with some kind of bars.
I was then going to quote the same Economist blog you linked to, which makes the point that regardless of the actions of the individual soldiers, they were being put in a situation where they were at undue risk of needing to fire to defend themselves.
Thanks tigtog for getting this up. I was just working on something myself, which I’ll put in as a comment:
The killing of nine activists and the wounding of more aboard the Marmara, part of a convoy of ships attempting to bring aid past the Israeli maritime blockade of the Gaza strip, by the Israeli military, has provoked a storm of outrage from individuals and governments around the world. As of now, the latest news is that one of the wounded is <a HREF="including an Australian shot in the leg – though their identity has not been confirmed it’s not Fairfax reporters Kate Geraghty and Paul McGeough, who are both reported to be safe.
The Israeli government has claimed that the Israeli forces fired in self-defence after being attacked. From an interview with their spinner Mark Regev on Lateline last night:
Some of the video of the incident released so far seems to provide support for some of these claims. A video from Russia Today via The Economist (HT tigtog) seems to show one of the activists aboard the boat carrying a wooden pole, and subsequently shows an activist (who may have been the same one) repeatedly hitting an armed Israeli soldier with a long implement. This video from ABC news (which appears to be night-vision footage from the Israeli military) also shows people in dark clothing (which presumably indicates the soldiers) being attacked with some kind of bars.
I was then going to quote the same Economist blog you linked to, which makes the point that regardless of the actions of the individual soldiers, they were being put in a situation where they were at undue risk of needing to fire to defend themselves.
“Today, the IDF made itself look as clumsy and careless of human life as the Russian Army.” That’s got to smart – many Israelis are from there, after all.
“Today, the IDF made itself look as clumsy and careless of human life as the Russian Army.” That’s got to smart – many Israelis are from there, after all.
that’s clearly his intent and he was cheering the deaths in the other threads yesterday.
History tells us that the first announcements of any military after an event like this are either self-serving lies or strictly censored and manipulated by the govt of the day. We’ll find out soon enough that the “Provocation” was nothing. The current claim is that the soldiers dropped into a lynching and had their guns taken off them – a story that’s already stretching credibility.
Not that it matters of course, since they were committing an act of piracy against which self-defense is legitimate…
that’s clearly his intent and he was cheering the deaths in the other threads yesterday.
History tells us that the first announcements of any military after an event like this are either self-serving lies or strictly censored and manipulated by the govt of the day. We’ll find out soon enough that the “Provocation” was nothing. The current claim is that the soldiers dropped into a lynching and had their guns taken off them – a story that’s already stretching credibility.
Not that it matters of course, since they were committing an act of piracy against which self-defense is legitimate…
I’m sure that if such footage exists then one of the 101st Keyboard Squadron will have put it up on YouTube or Vimeo, so SATP can find it and share the link with us.
From AlJazeeraEnglish on YouTube: “Al Jazeera’s Jamal Elshayyal on board the Mavi Marmara sent this report before communications were cut.”
I’m sure that if such footage exists then one of the 101st Keyboard Squadron will have put it up on YouTube or Vimeo, so SATP can find it and share the link with us.
From AlJazeeraEnglish on YouTube: “Al Jazeera’s Jamal Elshayyal on board the Mavi Marmara sent this report before communications were cut.”
Hal 9000, SATP has Al-Jazeera playing in the front bar of his pub.
Well, not really. He made it up to make a debating point.
Hal 9000, SATP has Al-Jazeera playing in the front bar of his pub.
Well, not really. He made it up to make a debating point.
Piracy.
Piracy.
There’s still a great many unanswered questions here. But, can someone tell us what right if any, do soldiers have to board a ship in international waters?
The fact that at least ten civilians have been killed and no Israeli soldiers, seems to suggest that there weren’t any protestors firing on the soldiers, though it’s possible some were attacking them with other implements.
It will be fascinating to read what McGeough and Geraghty have to say when they get the chance.
And I hope people realise that Al Jazeera isn’t mouthpiece for terrorists. Gees, even I’ve worked for AJ, as have many other Australians.
There’s still a great many unanswered questions here. But, can someone tell us what right if any, do soldiers have to board a ship in international waters?
The fact that at least ten civilians have been killed and no Israeli soldiers, seems to suggest that there weren’t any protestors firing on the soldiers, though it’s possible some were attacking them with other implements.
It will be fascinating to read what McGeough and Geraghty have to say when they get the chance.
And I hope people realise that Al Jazeera isn’t mouthpiece for terrorists. Gees, even I’ve worked for AJ, as have many other Australians.
Great post by Flying Rodent of Scotland, via Crooked Timber.
“there really is an urgent and perilous threat to Israel. It’s called “the Israeli government”.“
Great post by Flying Rodent of Scotland, via Crooked Timber.
“there really is an urgent and perilous threat to Israel. It’s called “the Israeli government”.“
Substitute almost any other State in the world for Israel in this situation and the there would almost certainly be a UN declaration that includes the words piracy, rouge State, murder and at the very least, sanctions.
It’s surely time to Question dual citizenship.
Substitute almost any other State in the world for Israel in this situation and the there would almost certainly be a UN declaration that includes the words piracy, rouge State, murder and at the very least, sanctions.
It’s surely time to Question dual citizenship.
Craig Murray reckons this is an act of war – an illegal one at that and that as of now a state of war exists between Israel and Turkey. Its not an act of piracy cos of the official Israeli military presence.
He also reckons that if its not an official act of war then according to the law of the sea what happened took place on Turkish territory (the flags were Turkish,) and that in that case the individuals responsible for the deaths should be tried in Turkey by the Turkish legal system.
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/
But, as with all the crap Israel does under the influence of right wing psycho powerbase, nothing will probably come of it. Turkey is a member of NATO and there is no way NATO will support an action against Israel. Israel will never hand over military personal for trial by a foreign governmant. It goes against everything the IDF believes in. (They handed over Kuntar for remains IIRC.)
Typically appalling and typically stupid, but then what do you expect with the clown in charge.
I remember reading criticism of Netanyahu in a book called Gideon’s Spies, where several former Mossad heads were interviewed. I remember one considered Natanyahu to be a danger, someone who thought that his role as pm meant he should be involved and possibly calling the shots during operations (when clearly it shouldn’t). The critic whose name I forget, basically said BN was always trying to live up to the legend of his dead brother (who led the raid on Entebbe) and it made him a dangerous person in a leadership role, cos he got his actual priorities confused with his ego. The impression I got was that BN was potentially dangerous and incompetent and quite capable of organising or pressuring people to carry out this sort of disaster, or the recent fuck up in Dubai.
WTF were they thinking. 2 years ago they were doing military exercises with Turkey, now they carry out an unprovoked act of war with them in international waters. Unbelievable. They didn’t even wait until they were in or close to territorial waters.
Craig Murray reckons this is an act of war – an illegal one at that and that as of now a state of war exists between Israel and Turkey. Its not an act of piracy cos of the official Israeli military presence.
He also reckons that if its not an official act of war then according to the law of the sea what happened took place on Turkish territory (the flags were Turkish,) and that in that case the individuals responsible for the deaths should be tried in Turkey by the Turkish legal system.
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/
But, as with all the crap Israel does under the influence of right wing psycho powerbase, nothing will probably come of it. Turkey is a member of NATO and there is no way NATO will support an action against Israel. Israel will never hand over military personal for trial by a foreign governmant. It goes against everything the IDF believes in. (They handed over Kuntar for remains IIRC.)
Typically appalling and typically stupid, but then what do you expect with the clown in charge.
I remember reading criticism of Netanyahu in a book called Gideon’s Spies, where several former Mossad heads were interviewed. I remember one considered Natanyahu to be a danger, someone who thought that his role as pm meant he should be involved and possibly calling the shots during operations (when clearly it shouldn’t). The critic whose name I forget, basically said BN was always trying to live up to the legend of his dead brother (who led the raid on Entebbe) and it made him a dangerous person in a leadership role, cos he got his actual priorities confused with his ego. The impression I got was that BN was potentially dangerous and incompetent and quite capable of organising or pressuring people to carry out this sort of disaster, or the recent fuck up in Dubai.
WTF were they thinking. 2 years ago they were doing military exercises with Turkey, now they carry out an unprovoked act of war with them in international waters. Unbelievable. They didn’t even wait until they were in or close to territorial waters.
How come its cool and also admirable when wealthy white Western retirees fling deckchairs at armed pirates off the Horn of Africa but an outrageous ‘provocation’ in this case?
I fully expect NATO to detail a squadron of warships to apprehend these pirates,…oh wait…
How come its cool and also admirable when wealthy white Western retirees fling deckchairs at armed pirates off the Horn of Africa but an outrageous ‘provocation’ in this case?
I fully expect NATO to detail a squadron of warships to apprehend these pirates,…oh wait…
SATP is channelling Melanie Phillips, who is quoting MEMRI and referring to the convoy as an “Islamic Terror Ambush.” There really is a deep sump of human evil out there, and SATP is the local outlet pipe.
SATP is channelling Melanie Phillips, who is quoting MEMRI and referring to the convoy as an “Islamic Terror Ambush.” There really is a deep sump of human evil out there, and SATP is the local outlet pipe.
What? No.
What? No.
“To protest against Israel’s brutality the Students for Palestine and the Palestine Solidarity Committee have organised a protest at 4.30pm today(Tuesday June 1) at the Bourke St Mall in Melbourne.
In Sydney the Coalition for Peace and Justice in Palestine has called a solidarity vigil for 5.30pm at the Town Hall (today, Tuesday June 1).“
“To protest against Israel’s brutality the Students for Palestine and the Palestine Solidarity Committee have organised a protest at 4.30pm today(Tuesday June 1) at the Bourke St Mall in Melbourne.
In Sydney the Coalition for Peace and Justice in Palestine has called a solidarity vigil for 5.30pm at the Town Hall (today, Tuesday June 1).“
SATP is, like all of us, entitled to his opinion but he aint entitled to his own facts. There really ought to be consequences for knowingly making shit up. Maybe every time SATP comments in future his comment should have an embedded link to his disgusting lie at 2 above, just in case anyone is tempted to trust his good faith.
Lets see just how gutless Obama really is – my bet is that the US will veto the Security council resolution condemning this.
SATP is, like all of us, entitled to his opinion but he aint entitled to his own facts. There really ought to be consequences for knowingly making shit up. Maybe every time SATP comments in future his comment should have an embedded link to his disgusting lie at 2 above, just in case anyone is tempted to trust his good faith.
Lets see just how gutless Obama really is – my bet is that the US will veto the Security council resolution condemning this.
“In Brisbane the demonstration is on Tuesday, June 1 at 5:00pm, Brisbane Square (end of Queen St Mall).“
“In Brisbane the demonstration is on Tuesday, June 1 at 5:00pm, Brisbane Square (end of Queen St Mall).“
SATP, here’s the AJ website.
http://english.aljazeera.net/
Why don’t you search through it and show us your evidence?
SATP, here’s the AJ website.
http://english.aljazeera.net/
Why don’t you search through it and show us your evidence?
This news article from the Irish Times is worth a look, just for the rare experience of reading a Western news article that, for once, does NOT tread on eggshells where Israel is concerned. Despite being Ireland’s most establishment-centric, conservative newspaper, the IT’s sympathies are unashamedly pro-activist.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0531/breaking21.html?via=mr
jules@16: [quoting Craig Murray] ‘… as of now a state of war exists between Israel and Turkey.’
So whose side does that put Oz on? The country that our US alliance obliges us to morally defend at all costs or the country that contains our most sacred mythological icon? If indeed we end up at war with Turkey, then I hope this time we land at the right beach.
This news article from the Irish Times is worth a look, just for the rare experience of reading a Western news article that, for once, does NOT tread on eggshells where Israel is concerned. Despite being Ireland’s most establishment-centric, conservative newspaper, the IT’s sympathies are unashamedly pro-activist.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0531/breaking21.html?via=mr
jules@16: [quoting Craig Murray] ‘… as of now a state of war exists between Israel and Turkey.’
So whose side does that put Oz on? The country that our US alliance obliges us to morally defend at all costs or the country that contains our most sacred mythological icon? If indeed we end up at war with Turkey, then I hope this time we land at the right beach.
Brendon @4.
Armed assailants boarding vessels in international waters stopped being piracy when the armed assailants were acting on behalf of another power.
Piracy is carried out by private actors and acts of war are carried out by states.
These soldiers were acting on behalf of the Israeli State. Thats why Turkey called a meeting with NATO and informed the UNSC.
Yeah but Robert who cares what position they were in. They had just boarded a vessel under another country’s flag in international waters.
“The question becomes whether their use of retaliatory force was disproportionate.”
(the economist)
No it doesn’t. You don’t invade foreign soil, then when the locals attack you claim it was “retaliation or self defense” and expect that to justify your actions.
Oh wait a minute….
Brendon @4.
Armed assailants boarding vessels in international waters stopped being piracy when the armed assailants were acting on behalf of another power.
Piracy is carried out by private actors and acts of war are carried out by states.
These soldiers were acting on behalf of the Israeli State. Thats why Turkey called a meeting with NATO and informed the UNSC.
Yeah but Robert who cares what position they were in. They had just boarded a vessel under another country’s flag in international waters.
“The question becomes whether their use of retaliatory force was disproportionate.”
(the economist)
No it doesn’t. You don’t invade foreign soil, then when the locals attack you claim it was “retaliation or self defense” and expect that to justify your actions.
Oh wait a minute….
Chav, not defending the Israeli government for a minute, merely noting that the claims that the individual soldiers were ordered into a situation where they were attacked may have some truth to it.
Chav, not defending the Israeli government for a minute, merely noting that the claims that the individual soldiers were ordered into a situation where they were attacked may have some truth to it.
Ha ha! Steve From Tel Aviv is funny. Kind of.
Ha ha! Steve From Tel Aviv is funny. Kind of.
“It is also prohibited to fire at a person or vehicle bearing a white flag, since that indicates an intent to surrender or a desire to communicate.” Laws of war
“It is also prohibited to fire at a person or vehicle bearing a white flag, since that indicates an intent to surrender or a desire to communicate.” Laws of war
@Robert Merkel
That point struck me strongly as well – that when police attempt to contain mass protests, they require a high ratio of police to protestors. Sending in a few dozen IDF soldiers to contain up to 700 people on these boats seems like a recipe for having them feel overwhelmed and respond with a high level of retaliatory force. This should have been utterly predictable, and indicates that those planning the operation didn’t seem to care whether civilians were harmed or not.
@Robert Merkel
That point struck me strongly as well – that when police attempt to contain mass protests, they require a high ratio of police to protestors. Sending in a few dozen IDF soldiers to contain up to 700 people on these boats seems like a recipe for having them feel overwhelmed and respond with a high level of retaliatory force. This should have been utterly predictable, and indicates that those planning the operation didn’t seem to care whether civilians were harmed or not.
During the Cuban missile crisis, the US managed to avoid using any force (let alone lethal force) when blockading the transport of NUCLEAR WEAPONS to Cuba.
Israel was completely inept to the point of immorality in this episode (dropping armed commandos one at a time in the dead of night onto a boat full of rowdy activists?), they had superior firepower and failed to use it either responsibly or even effectively. They deserve international condemnation.
During the Cuban missile crisis, the US managed to avoid using any force (let alone lethal force) when blockading the transport of NUCLEAR WEAPONS to Cuba.
Israel was completely inept to the point of immorality in this episode (dropping armed commandos one at a time in the dead of night onto a boat full of rowdy activists?), they had superior firepower and failed to use it either responsibly or even effectively. They deserve international condemnation.
@26. Robert I’d argue that focussing on that claim (is self-defence with chairs against armed opponents actually an ‘attack’?) objectively feeds into the Israeli propaganda defending their actions.
Why mention it at all?
@26. Robert I’d argue that focussing on that claim (is self-defence with chairs against armed opponents actually an ‘attack’?) objectively feeds into the Israeli propaganda defending their actions.
Why mention it at all?
Phillips would have us believe that this well organised “Islamic terror ambush” was perpetrated by people wielding metal clubs against one of the most well armed military forces on earth? That’s really the wingnut line?
Phillips would have us believe that this well organised “Islamic terror ambush” was perpetrated by people wielding metal clubs against one of the most well armed military forces on earth? That’s really the wingnut line?
Robert, you have done exactly what ABC News is now doing. That is, stating as fact the number of nine dead when many other sources have the number at 19 or more recently 20.
Robert, you have done exactly what ABC News is now doing. That is, stating as fact the number of nine dead when many other sources have the number at 19 or more recently 20.
Yep, thats what happens when you send soldiers to do policing – they only have zero (nothing) to hero (live fire) strategies. Its not even lawful to board a flagged vessel in international waters. What a ham-fisted, amateurish mess.
Call me crazy, but I’m suspecting the Australian shot in the leg didn’t have ‘a pole’. Lets wait and see the protester footage – there will be plenty. Israel is evidently so confident of their perspective they’ve put a complete media blackout on.
Yep, thats what happens when you send soldiers to do policing – they only have zero (nothing) to hero (live fire) strategies. Its not even lawful to board a flagged vessel in international waters. What a ham-fisted, amateurish mess.
Call me crazy, but I’m suspecting the Australian shot in the leg didn’t have ‘a pole’. Lets wait and see the protester footage – there will be plenty. Israel is evidently so confident of their perspective they’ve put a complete media blackout on.
tigtog:
There is also a case for saying they took this strategy because they WANTED civilian casualties – as this creates maximum psychological intimidation, not just towards civilian activists, but towards national governments who understandably don’t wish to be seen condoning protest activity that puts their own citizens in danger.
Also, as Israel is the world’s fourth-strongest military nation, brute force is a much more expedient political methodology than negotiation, which is Israel’s greatest diplomatic weakness.
tigtog:
There is also a case for saying they took this strategy because they WANTED civilian casualties – as this creates maximum psychological intimidation, not just towards civilian activists, but towards national governments who understandably don’t wish to be seen condoning protest activity that puts their own citizens in danger.
Also, as Israel is the world’s fourth-strongest military nation, brute force is a much more expedient political methodology than negotiation, which is Israel’s greatest diplomatic weakness.
I ant see 19 people being shot dead on that IDF video – yet we know they have been. When do we get to see what really happened?
I ant see 19 people being shot dead on that IDF video – yet we know they have been. When do we get to see what really happened?
Fine @ 13 – from previous news reports it appears that Australia intercepts refugee boats in international waters when its clear that they are heading towards Australia. And presumably the navy staff are armed.
Regardless of whether it was an act of war or not (and I don’t believe Israel and Turkey are going to go to war over this anyway), its a total PR disaster for Israel which is what the activists wanted in the first place, even if most likely not in the way they intended.
Fine @ 13 – from previous news reports it appears that Australia intercepts refugee boats in international waters when its clear that they are heading towards Australia. And presumably the navy staff are armed.
Regardless of whether it was an act of war or not (and I don’t believe Israel and Turkey are going to go to war over this anyway), its a total PR disaster for Israel which is what the activists wanted in the first place, even if most likely not in the way they intended.
If it was North Korea or Iraq or any other number of other states, we wouldn’t be looking at 19 people being shot dead in international waters in terms of PR disasters.
If it was North Korea or Iraq or any other number of other states, we wouldn’t be looking at 19 people being shot dead in international waters in terms of PR disasters.
“…its a total PR disaster for Israel which is what the activists wanted in the first place, even if most likely not in the way they intended.”
The activists don’t need to manufacture one, its already there, its called Gaza.
“…its a total PR disaster for Israel which is what the activists wanted in the first place, even if most likely not in the way they intended.”
The activists don’t need to manufacture one, its already there, its called Gaza.
The always readable and informed Abu Muqawama.
The always readable and informed Abu Muqawama.
In Deference to Mine Host @ 2 (SATP): The incident he refers to is here.
adrian @ 38 – well a few months ago North Korea managed to torpedo and sink a South Korean navy ship killing 46 people and the UN is still trying to work out what to do.
Israel should be criticised for what they’ve done but its unlikely the UN will end up doing anything substantial.
adrian @ 38 – well a few months ago North Korea managed to torpedo and sink a South Korean navy ship killing 46 people and the UN is still trying to work out what to do.
Israel should be criticised for what they’ve done but its unlikely the UN will end up doing anything substantial.
Incidentally if I were any of these soldiers my first urge would be to engage the enemy, and shoot my officers. Man that is not how you do armed assault.
Incidentally if I were any of these soldiers my first urge would be to engage the enemy, and shoot my officers. Man that is not how you do armed assault.
Chris, adrian’s point is that the response to this is in terms of what a PR cock up it was, not about the loss of life. The South Korean incident clearly led to outrage at the loss of life. Though it’s worth noting the outrage had to be muted because there actually was no evidence of the cause, on account of the cause being a submarine. In this case the cause was videotaped being the cause, so the international community does have the option of immediate uproar, and the media can choose if they wish to portray it as an atrocity rather than a PR disaster.
Chris, adrian’s point is that the response to this is in terms of what a PR cock up it was, not about the loss of life. The South Korean incident clearly led to outrage at the loss of life. Though it’s worth noting the outrage had to be muted because there actually was no evidence of the cause, on account of the cause being a submarine. In this case the cause was videotaped being the cause, so the international community does have the option of immediate uproar, and the media can choose if they wish to portray it as an atrocity rather than a PR disaster.
Now all we need is a war for that to apply.
Now all we need is a war for that to apply.
Of course the South Korean vessel sunk, it seems, by the DPRK, was a military vessel operating in contested waters, rather than an aid vessel in international waters.
Something will be done to the DPRK. Nothing has yet been done to Israel.
Of course the South Korean vessel sunk, it seems, by the DPRK, was a military vessel operating in contested waters, rather than an aid vessel in international waters.
Something will be done to the DPRK. Nothing has yet been done to Israel.
Jeez,
The passengers didn’t just stand back and let a bunch of soldiers the world over for being war criminals take over their ship and massacre them? Wow!
Jeez,
The passengers didn’t just stand back and let a bunch of soldiers the world over for being war criminals take over their ship and massacre them? Wow!
Liam, that footage was like watching an example of bad AI programming in a video game.
Liam, that footage was like watching an example of bad AI programming in a video game.
Did I see a sebel deck chair in that video? Does that mean Australia has been arming terrorists?
Did I see a sebel deck chair in that video? Does that mean Australia has been arming terrorists?
dj @ 48 – yea absolutely unbelievable! I thought Israeli soldiers were meant to be well trained. On the other hand the non violent resistance training the activists were taught obviously didn’t stick either.
sg @ 44 – there is plenty of outrage over the deaths coming from both countries as well as in the media.
Fran @ 46 – “something” will most likely be a strongly worded statement. But in their defence there’s not really anything they can do. Sanctions do very little but result in more people starving to death.
dj @ 48 – yea absolutely unbelievable! I thought Israeli soldiers were meant to be well trained. On the other hand the non violent resistance training the activists were taught obviously didn’t stick either.
sg @ 44 – there is plenty of outrage over the deaths coming from both countries as well as in the media.
Fran @ 46 – “something” will most likely be a strongly worded statement. But in their defence there’s not really anything they can do. Sanctions do very little but result in more people starving to death.
“That’s really the wingnut line?”
Nah, this is the wingnut line.
On a more serious note, what about Turkish escort for future aid shipments?
“That’s really the wingnut line?”
Nah, this is the wingnut line.
On a more serious note, what about Turkish escort for future aid shipments?
Joe2: I should have said “at least nine”.
Joe2: I should have said “at least nine”.
Dreadfull but hardly surprising.Israel is fast becoming the greatest threat to world security. Can’t wait to hear Julie Bishops take on this one.
Dreadfull but hardly surprising.Israel is fast becoming the greatest threat to world security. Can’t wait to hear Julie Bishops take on this one.
More to the point Chris, it seems unlikely that the Chinese would allow the DPRK to fall over.
One interesting tactic that I heard involved the broadcast of information about the family of Kim Jong Il to North Koreans. Apparently, few non-connected North Koreans even know that he has a son much less that he is the propopsed heir. Dropping leaflets, broadcasting over loudspeakers or on their frequencies from an AWAC would annoy the hell out of the regime — and might prompt them to negotiate.
Additionally, if the Chinese could come round to the view that a somehwat less repressive and sclerotic regime might be no bad thing for all in the region … a regime more like theirs for example … The Chinese could rig a palace coup without much trouble one suspects.
Similarly, in the case of Israel, it is very heavily dependent on US aid. Whisper about connecting that with NNPT, the 1967 borders etc and the whole dynamic changes.
More to the point Chris, it seems unlikely that the Chinese would allow the DPRK to fall over.
One interesting tactic that I heard involved the broadcast of information about the family of Kim Jong Il to North Koreans. Apparently, few non-connected North Koreans even know that he has a son much less that he is the propopsed heir. Dropping leaflets, broadcasting over loudspeakers or on their frequencies from an AWAC would annoy the hell out of the regime — and might prompt them to negotiate.
Additionally, if the Chinese could come round to the view that a somehwat less repressive and sclerotic regime might be no bad thing for all in the region … a regime more like theirs for example … The Chinese could rig a palace coup without much trouble one suspects.
Similarly, in the case of Israel, it is very heavily dependent on US aid. Whisper about connecting that with NNPT, the 1967 borders etc and the whole dynamic changes.
One thing I don’t understand is why some of the people on the boat attacked armed soldiers with improvised weapons.
They may well have been perfectly within their rights to do so, but as a matter of self-preservation my initial reaction to soldiers pointing guns at me wouldn’t be to pick up a club and try to beat them.
I have to wonder what went on beforehand.
One thing I don’t understand is why some of the people on the boat attacked armed soldiers with improvised weapons.
They may well have been perfectly within their rights to do so, but as a matter of self-preservation my initial reaction to soldiers pointing guns at me wouldn’t be to pick up a club and try to beat them.
I have to wonder what went on beforehand.
Yes if I were the Chinese I’d be a bit concerned about a nuclear armed but not very stable government on my border.
And the US is also very reliant on Turkey in the region (I listened to a podcast the other day about the amernian genocide and how Turkey managed to convince the US not recognise it as genocide). So perhaps Obama will be forced to try something.
Yes if I were the Chinese I’d be a bit concerned about a nuclear armed but not very stable government on my border.
And the US is also very reliant on Turkey in the region (I listened to a podcast the other day about the amernian genocide and how Turkey managed to convince the US not recognise it as genocide). So perhaps Obama will be forced to try something.
This is crazy bad. You don’t storm a ship in international waters with commandos in the middle of the night without a complete disregard for international politics. WTF were they thinking? Of course the people on the ship are going to respond and of course the soldiers outnumbered 100-1 are going to use their advantage in arms.
I mean Israel has a right to self defence but this is act of aggression. Scary very scary…of course the US will stonewall, another blight on Obama. And we think Rudd is a hopeless failure.
This is crazy bad. You don’t storm a ship in international waters with commandos in the middle of the night without a complete disregard for international politics. WTF were they thinking? Of course the people on the ship are going to respond and of course the soldiers outnumbered 100-1 are going to use their advantage in arms.
I mean Israel has a right to self defence but this is act of aggression. Scary very scary…of course the US will stonewall, another blight on Obama. And we think Rudd is a hopeless failure.
Chris, while it’s true that there is plenty of outrage being shown, Adrian was pointing out that the pr line is also strong, and it’s a particular phenomenon of discourse about Israel, because they’re one of “us.” You see it in discussion of the war on terror too, straight after decrying the latest wedding bombing/waterboarding/torture scene, the pundits are all over the PR implications.
I don’t think “PR” would be the first or second thing to be talked about if footage came out of hamas activists murdering a couple of tens of Israeli settlers, or waterboarding an Israeli soldier.
Chris, while it’s true that there is plenty of outrage being shown, Adrian was pointing out that the pr line is also strong, and it’s a particular phenomenon of discourse about Israel, because they’re one of “us.” You see it in discussion of the war on terror too, straight after decrying the latest wedding bombing/waterboarding/torture scene, the pundits are all over the PR implications.
I don’t think “PR” would be the first or second thing to be talked about if footage came out of hamas activists murdering a couple of tens of Israeli settlers, or waterboarding an Israeli soldier.
sg – I think one difference with Israel is that the very survival of their country is highly dependent on good PR and not being seen (at least by governments) as a pariah state. Unlike North Korea or Iraq they simply would not survive for 10 years if international sanctions were imposed and countries like the US participated.
They’re shooting themself in the foot when they do things like this. If they’d managed to pull it off without any deaths as happened on the other boats then they probably would have got away with it.
sg – I think one difference with Israel is that the very survival of their country is highly dependent on good PR and not being seen (at least by governments) as a pariah state. Unlike North Korea or Iraq they simply would not survive for 10 years if international sanctions were imposed and countries like the US participated.
They’re shooting themself in the foot when they do things like this. If they’d managed to pull it off without any deaths as happened on the other boats then they probably would have got away with it.
Re ETR @ 41 with the link to the claimed Al-Jazeera footage. The footage is shown on the Palestine Media Watch website. Let’s be clear who they are (taken from their “about us” section) –
Founded in 1996, Palestinian Media Watch is an Israeli NGO that studies Palestinian society from a broad range of perspectives by monitoring and analyzing the Palestinian Authority through its media and schoolbooks. PMW’s major focus is on the messages that the Palestinian leaders, from the Palestinian Authority, Fatah and Hamas, send to the population through the broad range of institutions and infrastructures they control.
Re ETR @ 41 with the link to the claimed Al-Jazeera footage. The footage is shown on the Palestine Media Watch website. Let’s be clear who they are (taken from their “about us” section) –
Founded in 1996, Palestinian Media Watch is an Israeli NGO that studies Palestinian society from a broad range of perspectives by monitoring and analyzing the Palestinian Authority through its media and schoolbooks. PMW’s major focus is on the messages that the Palestinian leaders, from the Palestinian Authority, Fatah and Hamas, send to the population through the broad range of institutions and infrastructures they control.
Links post at The Drum:
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2914813.htm
Links post at The Drum:
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2914813.htm
I hate to point this out. People here need to apologise to SATP. For a start it’s unlikely that the people on that ship are going to sue him for defamation. They have more pressing things right now.
And secondly, we can’t prove that SATP lied. I’d love to see his source but he can just shoot back with “nah, find it yerself” and that’s that. We can doubt his interpretation of it but we cannot without proof call him a lier.
I have some pretty strong views on Israel’s actions but will put them aside to draw your attention to the other side of the debate. Bolt has loads of video links of the boarding here.
http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/andrewbolt/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/israel_will_pay_for_hamas_provocation/
I hate to point this out. People here need to apologise to SATP. For a start it’s unlikely that the people on that ship are going to sue him for defamation. They have more pressing things right now.
And secondly, we can’t prove that SATP lied. I’d love to see his source but he can just shoot back with “nah, find it yerself” and that’s that. We can doubt his interpretation of it but we cannot without proof call him a lier.
I have some pretty strong views on Israel’s actions but will put them aside to draw your attention to the other side of the debate. Bolt has loads of video links of the boarding here.
http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/andrewbolt/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/israel_will_pay_for_hamas_provocation/
So now armed forces boarding an unarmed peace convoy in international waters and killing at least 19 people becomes a ‘debate’.
Really tssk, sometimes people make me sick.
Defending SATP and linking to Andrew Bolt as the other side in this ‘debate’ is nauseating. You wouldn’t be calling this a debate if it was North Korea or Iran doing the killing.
So now armed forces boarding an unarmed peace convoy in international waters and killing at least 19 people becomes a ‘debate’.
Really tssk, sometimes people make me sick.
Defending SATP and linking to Andrew Bolt as the other side in this ‘debate’ is nauseating. You wouldn’t be calling this a debate if it was North Korea or Iran doing the killing.
tssk said in part:
We don’t have to prove he lied. As the old saying goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. It would be extraordinary if he could show that even one of the flotilla participants was shouting “kill the Jews” “calling for genocide” the day before, or even the week before, or even any time at all. Had he had such evidence, he would surely have posted it at the time.
Of course, SATPs view of reality is that it is whatever you’d like it to be — hence his claim about what all ex-peacekeepers from the middle east think of the ethical integrity of Arabs and Israelis.
So he is simply venting recklessly, which is the same as lying, much as if I said that “even now, the IDF is planning a final solution for the Arab populations within their boundaries”. Nobody could show that I was making baseless claims, but it would still be a lie unless I could adduce some plausible basis for accepting the claim.
tssk said in part:
We don’t have to prove he lied. As the old saying goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. It would be extraordinary if he could show that even one of the flotilla participants was shouting “kill the Jews” “calling for genocide” the day before, or even the week before, or even any time at all. Had he had such evidence, he would surely have posted it at the time.
Of course, SATPs view of reality is that it is whatever you’d like it to be — hence his claim about what all ex-peacekeepers from the middle east think of the ethical integrity of Arabs and Israelis.
So he is simply venting recklessly, which is the same as lying, much as if I said that “even now, the IDF is planning a final solution for the Arab populations within their boundaries”. Nobody could show that I was making baseless claims, but it would still be a lie unless I could adduce some plausible basis for accepting the claim.
haha, Bolt is claiming that this was “engineered” by a “pro-hamas movement.” There’s a great quote in one of those links of his: “On the day before the Gaza flotilla confronted the Israeli navy…”
haha, the navy drops commandos onto a ship in international waters, and someone reports it as the gaza flotilla confronting the Israeli navy.
I bet the claim that the Israeli commandos had paintball guns will be dead in the water pretty fast, but Bolt will never retract it. It would be the first time in recorded history that Israeli soldiers confronted protesters using paintball guns…
Also Bolt seems to have a link to “30 soldiers” being attacked, yet he reports only 4 injured, which would have to be the four seen in that first video coming down the ropes – at the end of which you can see some soldiers pointing pistols at the crowd. I think he might be being a little credulous.
haha, Bolt is claiming that this was “engineered” by a “pro-hamas movement.” There’s a great quote in one of those links of his: “On the day before the Gaza flotilla confronted the Israeli navy…”
haha, the navy drops commandos onto a ship in international waters, and someone reports it as the gaza flotilla confronting the Israeli navy.
I bet the claim that the Israeli commandos had paintball guns will be dead in the water pretty fast, but Bolt will never retract it. It would be the first time in recorded history that Israeli soldiers confronted protesters using paintball guns…
Also Bolt seems to have a link to “30 soldiers” being attacked, yet he reports only 4 injured, which would have to be the four seen in that first video coming down the ropes – at the end of which you can see some soldiers pointing pistols at the crowd. I think he might be being a little credulous.
A commenter on one of my threads on Middle East politics once said that I was “strangely conservative” on the Israel/Palestine dispute. In the light of this incident and other matters which were in the news last week, I’m inclined to think that she had a valid point.
A commenter on one of my threads on Middle East politics once said that I was “strangely conservative” on the Israel/Palestine dispute. In the light of this incident and other matters which were in the news last week, I’m inclined to think that she had a valid point.
If SATP is lying…then it is he that needs to sleep at night with that.
Adrian…you are wrong about the differences. North Korea (allegedly) sunk a South Korean sub last month. And everyone is going softly softly there for much the same reasons as they are with Isreal. Despite the injustices to the individuals concerned noone really wants to push a nuclear state with a seige mentality too far. As much as I am frustrated by the media and governments not calling it like it is…they are doing the diplomatic version of talking the man at the edge of the building down. They don’t want to panic him in case he lets off a shot.
When I heard about this flotilla I expected this would be the result. I did think they would at least wait until they sailed into Israeli waters though.
If SATP is lying…then it is he that needs to sleep at night with that.
Adrian…you are wrong about the differences. North Korea (allegedly) sunk a South Korean sub last month. And everyone is going softly softly there for much the same reasons as they are with Isreal. Despite the injustices to the individuals concerned noone really wants to push a nuclear state with a seige mentality too far. As much as I am frustrated by the media and governments not calling it like it is…they are doing the diplomatic version of talking the man at the edge of the building down. They don’t want to panic him in case he lets off a shot.
When I heard about this flotilla I expected this would be the result. I did think they would at least wait until they sailed into Israeli waters though.
SG, in the video I linked to you can see a soldier with a paintball marker in silhouette at 52″. It’s the feeder on top that gives it away.
Why the Navy would issue a boarding party with paintballs is another question. I’m with Robert Merkel, the planners on both sides seem to have been spoiling for an incident—the IDF’s worst enemy is its own officer corps.
SG, in the video I linked to you can see a soldier with a paintball marker in silhouette at 52″. It’s the feeder on top that gives it away.
Why the Navy would issue a boarding party with paintballs is another question. I’m with Robert Merkel, the planners on both sides seem to have been spoiling for an incident—the IDF’s worst enemy is its own officer corps.
sg, not pistols….paintball guns remember? And if you can kill 19 people with paintball pellets you must be a damn good shot.
And I’m guessing by the end of the week this will be seen as clever asymetrical warfare on behalf of Hamas. The commandos will be compared to train drivers that have had to deal with jumpers or cops who have to deal with nutters going for suicide by cop.
And then the weekend sport will wash it all away like tears in the rain.
sg, not pistols….paintball guns remember? And if you can kill 19 people with paintball pellets you must be a damn good shot.
And I’m guessing by the end of the week this will be seen as clever asymetrical warfare on behalf of Hamas. The commandos will be compared to train drivers that have had to deal with jumpers or cops who have to deal with nutters going for suicide by cop.
And then the weekend sport will wash it all away like tears in the rain.
Liam, I bow to your superior knowledge of paintballing, though I’m finding it extremely hard to believe that this is what they were given and I can’t see any guns in the video at 52 seconds, let alone a stand-out paintball gun.
Everyone knows that paintball guns won’t stop rioters. And were they sure that the people on the ship would recognise them as paintball guns and not think it was time to defend themselves? It’s almost as if their commanding officers wanted the first soldiers on deck to get hurt…
Liam, I bow to your superior knowledge of paintballing, though I’m finding it extremely hard to believe that this is what they were given and I can’t see any guns in the video at 52 seconds, let alone a stand-out paintball gun.
Everyone knows that paintball guns won’t stop rioters. And were they sure that the people on the ship would recognise them as paintball guns and not think it was time to defend themselves? It’s almost as if their commanding officers wanted the first soldiers on deck to get hurt…
A salient difference between the two situations, tssk, is that Israel is in receipt of billions of $ of military and civilian aid from the US, while DPRK gets zilch from anyone. The US is thus directly, and its allies such as Australia indirectly, complicit in the occupation and seige of Gaza. Would reducing this US taxpayer-funded largesse be pushing Israel too far, do you suppose? If so, what does this say about the nature of the ‘friendship’ with Israel. There is a way of characterising a relationship based on ‘pay up, or else’, and it’s not friendship.
A salient difference between the two situations, tssk, is that Israel is in receipt of billions of $ of military and civilian aid from the US, while DPRK gets zilch from anyone. The US is thus directly, and its allies such as Australia indirectly, complicit in the occupation and seige of Gaza. Would reducing this US taxpayer-funded largesse be pushing Israel too far, do you suppose? If so, what does this say about the nature of the ‘friendship’ with Israel. There is a way of characterising a relationship based on ‘pay up, or else’, and it’s not friendship.
Bloody Sunday, Amritsar, Sharpeville, Selma, Peace Flotilla.
Death twitches of moribund regimes.
Martyrs’ blood is indelible ink.
Bloody Sunday, Amritsar, Sharpeville, Selma, Peace Flotilla.
Death twitches of moribund regimes.
Martyrs’ blood is indelible ink.
I can only agree with other posters. This incident illustrates what the Israeli military has degenerated into – a heavily armed but undisciplined force that seems callously indifferent to the death of any non-Jewish person. Their first reaction is denial or blackening the name of the victim. I am trying to remember the last time any Israeli soldier was tried tried for murdering an unarmed civilian?
Sadly, today’s incident will probably benefit Al Quaida recruiting too – remember how many captured terrorists have said that incidents like Abu Gharaib jail turned them to violence? Attacking an unarmed aid convoy will be rightly seen in the Arab world as a barbarous act.
The Australian government should condemn this in the strongest terms. Defending the indefensible only weakens the credibility of the defender. Even liberal Jews must be embarrassed by this incident.
I can only agree with other posters. This incident illustrates what the Israeli military has degenerated into – a heavily armed but undisciplined force that seems callously indifferent to the death of any non-Jewish person. Their first reaction is denial or blackening the name of the victim. I am trying to remember the last time any Israeli soldier was tried tried for murdering an unarmed civilian?
Sadly, today’s incident will probably benefit Al Quaida recruiting too – remember how many captured terrorists have said that incidents like Abu Gharaib jail turned them to violence? Attacking an unarmed aid convoy will be rightly seen in the Arab world as a barbarous act.
The Australian government should condemn this in the strongest terms. Defending the indefensible only weakens the credibility of the defender. Even liberal Jews must be embarrassed by this incident.
Liam appears to be correct, sg. At least one of the Israeli soldiers was “armed” with a paintball gun, though they were also apparently carrying pistols.
Whether some were also carrying heavier weaponry is not clear to me; some of the video appears to show automatic weapons, but as you’ve all seen the video is chaotic and not very high resolution.
Liam appears to be correct, sg. At least one of the Israeli soldiers was “armed” with a paintball gun, though they were also apparently carrying pistols.
Whether some were also carrying heavier weaponry is not clear to me; some of the video appears to show automatic weapons, but as you’ve all seen the video is chaotic and not very high resolution.
SG, I’ve only been skirmishing once, years ago, but I can tell you I’d much rather be shot in the arse with a paintball than hit over the head with a plastic chair (which funnily enough has also happened to me once, years ago).
SG, I’ve only been skirmishing once, years ago, but I can tell you I’d much rather be shot in the arse with a paintball than hit over the head with a plastic chair (which funnily enough has also happened to me once, years ago).
I agree entirely Liam! Even a sebel chair. But if you’ve been skirmishing you’d know that even a shot in the body from 2m away is insufficient to stop a person moving, acting, and behaving like a belligerent bastard. If you have any serious intention of preventing violent action, you don’t arm your violent-action-preventer with a paintball gun.
Considering the Israeli army’s historical willingness to use rubber and live bullets, and to shoot down children in the streets with no provocation, it seems mighty strange to send them into an obvious potential troublespot armed with the weakest weapon you can find them…
I agree entirely Liam! Even a sebel chair. But if you’ve been skirmishing you’d know that even a shot in the body from 2m away is insufficient to stop a person moving, acting, and behaving like a belligerent bastard. If you have any serious intention of preventing violent action, you don’t arm your violent-action-preventer with a paintball gun.
Considering the Israeli army’s historical willingness to use rubber and live bullets, and to shoot down children in the streets with no provocation, it seems mighty strange to send them into an obvious potential troublespot armed with the weakest weapon you can find them…
FineThere’s still a great many unanswered questions here. But, can someone tell us what right if any, do soldiers have to board a ship in international waters?
Fine, it depends on the jurisdiction. On the high seas (which this cannot be, the eastern basin of the Med has no high seas outside 200nm EEZ), any watrship of any nation can board any merchant ship of any nation to check their bond fides. Inside an EEZ one has economic rights per UNCLOS, as well as customs and other rights. Ships inside an EEZ exercise innocent passage (warships must not operate aircraft operationally etc, they basically just transit). EEZ are also within sea safety zones (which often go way beyond them: ours goes literally halfway to Africa and all the way to Antarctica!) and these are also security zones, defined by the IMO.
Legally, it looks like the Israelis were well within normal useages of current international law to board these vessels.
It turns out that SATP may have been correct: beware definite statements in advance of the facts!
This looks like an extremely successful islamist plan. It quite obviously has the strategic intent of breaking the Turkish-Israeli alliance against Islamist fanatics.
It is going to work, too. (Of course, they have not thought the medium term implications thru, but what do you expect of religious fanatics?)
It was less successful in tactical execution, they erred in not understanding that many of their western cohorts would themselves be filming the Islamist squads as they attacked the Israeli boarders on drop-down. That left ample evidence of their intent, plan and actions. They should also have used spears, instead of steel bars, clubs and knives. They would have killed a lot of Israeli’s that way on rope-down. Again, their strategic plan was good, tactical implementation was not.
Looking over the video (especially that taken by the westerners on the boat) shows out three squads of quite decent Islamist fighters. They also have an on-scene commander directing their attacks. They were very smart in apparently not using any but captured firearms. This implies that they understood just how completely they had suckered the Israelis. Excellent planning by the Islamists, they operated in such a way as not to push the Israelis outside a crowd control response, then presented them with lethal levels of violence right out of the blue.
It implies that the Islamists have penetrated Israeli police intelligence or planning. They knew what they were facing before the ships sailed.
LTL
FineThere’s still a great many unanswered questions here. But, can someone tell us what right if any, do soldiers have to board a ship in international waters?
Fine, it depends on the jurisdiction. On the high seas (which this cannot be, the eastern basin of the Med has no high seas outside 200nm EEZ), any watrship of any nation can board any merchant ship of any nation to check their bond fides. Inside an EEZ one has economic rights per UNCLOS, as well as customs and other rights. Ships inside an EEZ exercise innocent passage (warships must not operate aircraft operationally etc, they basically just transit). EEZ are also within sea safety zones (which often go way beyond them: ours goes literally halfway to Africa and all the way to Antarctica!) and these are also security zones, defined by the IMO.
Legally, it looks like the Israelis were well within normal useages of current international law to board these vessels.
It turns out that SATP may have been correct: beware definite statements in advance of the facts!
This looks like an extremely successful islamist plan. It quite obviously has the strategic intent of breaking the Turkish-Israeli alliance against Islamist fanatics.
It is going to work, too. (Of course, they have not thought the medium term implications thru, but what do you expect of religious fanatics?)
It was less successful in tactical execution, they erred in not understanding that many of their western cohorts would themselves be filming the Islamist squads as they attacked the Israeli boarders on drop-down. That left ample evidence of their intent, plan and actions. They should also have used spears, instead of steel bars, clubs and knives. They would have killed a lot of Israeli’s that way on rope-down. Again, their strategic plan was good, tactical implementation was not.
Looking over the video (especially that taken by the westerners on the boat) shows out three squads of quite decent Islamist fighters. They also have an on-scene commander directing their attacks. They were very smart in apparently not using any but captured firearms. This implies that they understood just how completely they had suckered the Israelis. Excellent planning by the Islamists, they operated in such a way as not to push the Israelis outside a crowd control response, then presented them with lethal levels of violence right out of the blue.
It implies that the Islamists have penetrated Israeli police intelligence or planning. They knew what they were facing before the ships sailed.
LTL
SATP’s extraordinary claims point to the fantasy world nature of much of the internet, and certainly blogs. We don’t know that the person who posts as SATP is called Steve. We don’t know that he/she has a pub. SATP might also be posting here under a different name taking a far left viewpoint. For all we know SATP might be a bored 23 year old office worker in Parramatta called Raelene who enjoys taking the piss.
SATP’s extraordinary claims point to the fantasy world nature of much of the internet, and certainly blogs. We don’t know that the person who posts as SATP is called Steve. We don’t know that he/she has a pub. SATP might also be posting here under a different name taking a far left viewpoint. For all we know SATP might be a bored 23 year old office worker in Parramatta called Raelene who enjoys taking the piss.
“hit over the head with a plastic chair (which funnily enough has also happened to me once, years ago)”
Student Union meeting?
d
“hit over the head with a plastic chair (which funnily enough has also happened to me once, years ago)”
Student Union meeting?
d
Sam, my own personal theory is that Pub Steve is actually Geraldine Doogue being mischievious on slow days at Compass. But that’s quite a thread derail.
Sam, my own personal theory is that Pub Steve is actually Geraldine Doogue being mischievious on slow days at Compass. But that’s quite a thread derail.
Liam, if you can derail an Israel-palestine thread with a Geraldine Doogue conspiracy you deserve to be Australia’s first president.
Liam, if you can derail an Israel-palestine thread with a Geraldine Doogue conspiracy you deserve to be Australia’s first president.
I would go for Rachael Kohn in these conspiracy stakes over poor, bewildered, Geraldine.
I would go for Rachael Kohn in these conspiracy stakes over poor, bewildered, Geraldine.
Both are as herrings to the mightiest tree in the Forest of Stoush.
Both are as herrings to the mightiest tree in the Forest of Stoush.
Much as bantering about stoush and pseudostoush has its charms, I really don’t want this thread derailed by it.
Much as bantering about stoush and pseudostoush has its charms, I really don’t want this thread derailed by it.
A commentator on RN this morning was suggesting that the Israeli military is particularly ill-equipped to do this relative to other miltaries.
A commentator on RN this morning was suggesting that the Israeli military is particularly ill-equipped to do this relative to other miltaries.
Well OK. My reasons:
1. She has access to a wide variety of media resources. Pub Steve is nothing if not well-connected and articulate.
2. She has long familiarity and a fascination with historical religious conflicts, even covering the Gulf War in depth. Pub Steve shares her interests.
3. She’s often covered the issue of the place of women in religious power structures, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, and otherwise. Pub Steve, again, shares the same interests.
4. Doogue is hyper-tolerant and liberal almost to the point of caricature, displaying almost no definite set viewpoints about anything. Pub Steve’s exactly the opposite, someone who’s never seen a shade of grey in his life: it’d be natural humour for one to pose as the other.
5. Doogue works for the ABC, which if joe2 and adrian are to be believed has turned from the rather ineffectual public broadcaster of the 1990s into a rampaging, irredentist hive of reaction—just the kind of place that would suit a bloke’s bloke like SATP.
6. In the past, Doogue has written for the Australian and worked for Murdoch in London. Strike two.
7. As he’s mentioned, SATP does not like or drink beer. Have you ever seen Geraldine Doogue drink XXXX? I think not.
In short: Geraldine Doogue, I salute you.
Well OK. My reasons:
1. She has access to a wide variety of media resources. Pub Steve is nothing if not well-connected and articulate.
2. She has long familiarity and a fascination with historical religious conflicts, even covering the Gulf War in depth. Pub Steve shares her interests.
3. She’s often covered the issue of the place of women in religious power structures, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, and otherwise. Pub Steve, again, shares the same interests.
4. Doogue is hyper-tolerant and liberal almost to the point of caricature, displaying almost no definite set viewpoints about anything. Pub Steve’s exactly the opposite, someone who’s never seen a shade of grey in his life: it’d be natural humour for one to pose as the other.
5. Doogue works for the ABC, which if joe2 and adrian are to be believed has turned from the rather ineffectual public broadcaster of the 1990s into a rampaging, irredentist hive of reaction—just the kind of place that would suit a bloke’s bloke like SATP.
6. In the past, Doogue has written for the Australian and worked for Murdoch in London. Strike two.
7. As he’s mentioned, SATP does not like or drink beer. Have you ever seen Geraldine Doogue drink XXXX? I think not.
In short: Geraldine Doogue, I salute you.
All right, I will vote for you Liam.
All right, I will vote for you Liam.
Sorry TT. Shan’t happen again.
Sorry TT. Shan’t happen again.
LTL is a hoot. Can we keep him?
LTL is a hoot. Can we keep him?
Robert, re what happened before.
People do not attack armed men with chairs unless the situation is desperate, that you have no other hope of life. Never happened before, and very few people are that suicidal, especially where the IDF is concerned, which is not known for being trigger shy.
My guess (and as usual it will all come out over time) is that the Israeli armed forces opened fire at one point, probably after a verbal confrontation and that people then fought to save their lives (which many then lost).
Obviously the IDF has never heard of tear gas, rubber bullets and flash bangs. They went in armed to kill.
Be ready for the ‘findings’ of weapons, etc. Dropping spare ‘pieces’ is a time honoured tactic by armies (and far too many police forces) these days. The fact that the ships were searched before they left will be airbrushed out.
Israel’s PR campaign is obvious, isolate the crews as long as they can until they can get their message out (diplomats are being denied access so far) which is the usual stream of conciousness spin that comes out. All sorts of terror groups will definitely be mentioned somewhere. SOP, fling enough mud and some sticks. We do the same, every wedding party blown away these days is full of insurgents with links to AQ.
The US Congress will no doubt issue some sort of declaration of total support shortly, passed with a huge majority.
And everyone hopes that it will all blow away after the usual ineffectual huffing and puffing.
Though I have a gut feel that this time it might not.
Robert, re what happened before.
People do not attack armed men with chairs unless the situation is desperate, that you have no other hope of life. Never happened before, and very few people are that suicidal, especially where the IDF is concerned, which is not known for being trigger shy.
My guess (and as usual it will all come out over time) is that the Israeli armed forces opened fire at one point, probably after a verbal confrontation and that people then fought to save their lives (which many then lost).
Obviously the IDF has never heard of tear gas, rubber bullets and flash bangs. They went in armed to kill.
Be ready for the ‘findings’ of weapons, etc. Dropping spare ‘pieces’ is a time honoured tactic by armies (and far too many police forces) these days. The fact that the ships were searched before they left will be airbrushed out.
Israel’s PR campaign is obvious, isolate the crews as long as they can until they can get their message out (diplomats are being denied access so far) which is the usual stream of conciousness spin that comes out. All sorts of terror groups will definitely be mentioned somewhere. SOP, fling enough mud and some sticks. We do the same, every wedding party blown away these days is full of insurgents with links to AQ.
The US Congress will no doubt issue some sort of declaration of total support shortly, passed with a huge majority.
And everyone hopes that it will all blow away after the usual ineffectual huffing and puffing.
Though I have a gut feel that this time it might not.
The humanitarian situation in Gaza is appalling. Even accepting the flotilla’s motivation as to provide relief and highlight the situation, Israel could be said to have successfully altered the narrative. Nothing will change, except for the worse.
The humanitarian situation in Gaza is appalling. Even accepting the flotilla’s motivation as to provide relief and highlight the situation, Israel could be said to have successfully altered the narrative. Nothing will change, except for the worse.
So how do we ( with notable exception of stephan/ie at the pub, and fellow perversities, who will undoubtedly be delighted) feel about our taxes being handed over to an Israeli sovereign-capitalised company (whose CEO is ex-israeli defence force, Military Secretary to the Prime Minister, 2001, General of Command, Central Command, 2002, and Deputy Chief of the General Staff, 2005, and who still posts on the corporate blog as Major General), significantly aiding and abetting them to establish a global monopoly/cartel position that will make the Saudis and their oil play look like Jed and Jethro Clampett as strategists?
I speak of the “Better Place’ electric vehicle battery logistics play, which Evan Thornely (Victorian ALP) made a mockery of our representative parliamentary democracy system to get in lucrative bed with. He lasted how long polishing bench leather after the factions bent over backwards to get him in on it? 3 weeks? (‘Course the alp and and israeli/zionist money go way back: you think the actu provided the capital for the SOLO petrol play? Ha.)
Note: I am not agin a practical and light-grey/greenish electric vehicle logistics network being set up, or even that taxpayer funds go into it, ( natural monopolies are a priori well-suited to state enterprise formation and administration, IMO, used to work eg as the PMG) I just revile that we should be so dumb and lazy and sordid as to let such a candy-from-a-low-hanging-baby, brain-stem-obvious, venture-capital-walk-in-the-park play be a vehicle for channeling australian tax payer funds into helping finance israel’s state-zealot attempts to bring about a final solution to their palestinian problem.
And they are not, repeat not, the only game in town, in fact a company called ChargePoint has beat them to having infrastructure up and working. Martin Ferguson, whoever, should not be allowed to just hand over the Green Car development millions to Evan Thornley’s bagman: I know that’s the quintessential ALP mates way, but it has to stop. hrmmphh.
So how do we ( with notable exception of stephan/ie at the pub, and fellow perversities, who will undoubtedly be delighted) feel about our taxes being handed over to an Israeli sovereign-capitalised company (whose CEO is ex-israeli defence force, Military Secretary to the Prime Minister, 2001, General of Command, Central Command, 2002, and Deputy Chief of the General Staff, 2005, and who still posts on the corporate blog as Major General), significantly aiding and abetting them to establish a global monopoly/cartel position that will make the Saudis and their oil play look like Jed and Jethro Clampett as strategists?
I speak of the “Better Place’ electric vehicle battery logistics play, which Evan Thornely (Victorian ALP) made a mockery of our representative parliamentary democracy system to get in lucrative bed with. He lasted how long polishing bench leather after the factions bent over backwards to get him in on it? 3 weeks? (‘Course the alp and and israeli/zionist money go way back: you think the actu provided the capital for the SOLO petrol play? Ha.)
Note: I am not agin a practical and light-grey/greenish electric vehicle logistics network being set up, or even that taxpayer funds go into it, ( natural monopolies are a priori well-suited to state enterprise formation and administration, IMO, used to work eg as the PMG) I just revile that we should be so dumb and lazy and sordid as to let such a candy-from-a-low-hanging-baby, brain-stem-obvious, venture-capital-walk-in-the-park play be a vehicle for channeling australian tax payer funds into helping finance israel’s state-zealot attempts to bring about a final solution to their palestinian problem.
And they are not, repeat not, the only game in town, in fact a company called ChargePoint has beat them to having infrastructure up and working. Martin Ferguson, whoever, should not be allowed to just hand over the Green Car development millions to Evan Thornley’s bagman: I know that’s the quintessential ALP mates way, but it has to stop. hrmmphh.
Yes I agree. The Zionists haven’t thought this one through at all.
Yes I agree. The Zionists haven’t thought this one through at all.
If the Israelis find some ordnance on board, nobody will believe them. I’m a big Israel supporter and am having to reassess things, not just in light on one-off incidents but repeated patterns.
It’s so cute that Fran Barlow refers to North Korea as “DPRK”. It isn’t Democratic; the People are more estranged from the government than anywhere else on earth, except for propaganda purposes; and it isn’t even a Republic, as the impending coronation of King Kim III will demonstrate. Oh, and nothing has been “done to” North Korea since 1953: it’s all self-inflicted.
If the Israelis find some ordnance on board, nobody will believe them. I’m a big Israel supporter and am having to reassess things, not just in light on one-off incidents but repeated patterns.
It’s so cute that Fran Barlow refers to North Korea as “DPRK”. It isn’t Democratic; the People are more estranged from the government than anywhere else on earth, except for propaganda purposes; and it isn’t even a Republic, as the impending coronation of King Kim III will demonstrate. Oh, and nothing has been “done to” North Korea since 1953: it’s all self-inflicted.
How can Israel be the victim when they have guns and the people on the boats were murdered?
How can Israel be the victim when they have guns and the people on the boats were murdered?
Correct, Katz. They have not, and it shows.
Correct, Katz. They have not, and it shows.
Thanks for sharing with the group, LTL… how long have you had these visions? Are they recurrent?
There was no question over Israel’s right to enter and inspect flagged ships inside their territorial waters – which are quite extensive. Its begs the question of why they decided to rely on more tenuous legal grounds outside.
They had a reasonable case for inspection – so I cant imagine why they didnt employ police who are trained to do it. Rather than soldiers, who can only do a. nothing or b. shoot people.
As for the operation itself – it seems totally inept. Ive seen 5 year olds better grasp the king of the castle principle that numbers help when boarding. And what happened before? Was it designed to create footage showing IDF soldiers under attack before the real message, tnat the’ve sent before (NGOS workers helping Palestinians will be shot or bulldozed)?
And where’s the footage of up to 19 people being killed, as we know happened? I think its fairly safe presumption the live fire episode doesn’t play well for the IDF.
Given the costs of pissing off Turkey – one of the few states in the region they have passable relations with – I think we’re looking at either a massive stuffup by the IDF or calculated shift in relations from Tel Aviv.
Anyway, they’ve now got about 40 western journos who’ll they’ll have to release and de-gag sooner or later. My money’s on their version not helping the IDF out of this hole.
Thanks for sharing with the group, LTL… how long have you had these visions? Are they recurrent?
There was no question over Israel’s right to enter and inspect flagged ships inside their territorial waters – which are quite extensive. Its begs the question of why they decided to rely on more tenuous legal grounds outside.
They had a reasonable case for inspection – so I cant imagine why they didnt employ police who are trained to do it. Rather than soldiers, who can only do a. nothing or b. shoot people.
As for the operation itself – it seems totally inept. Ive seen 5 year olds better grasp the king of the castle principle that numbers help when boarding. And what happened before? Was it designed to create footage showing IDF soldiers under attack before the real message, tnat the’ve sent before (NGOS workers helping Palestinians will be shot or bulldozed)?
And where’s the footage of up to 19 people being killed, as we know happened? I think its fairly safe presumption the live fire episode doesn’t play well for the IDF.
Given the costs of pissing off Turkey – one of the few states in the region they have passable relations with – I think we’re looking at either a massive stuffup by the IDF or calculated shift in relations from Tel Aviv.
Anyway, they’ve now got about 40 western journos who’ll they’ll have to release and de-gag sooner or later. My money’s on their version not helping the IDF out of this hole.
I figure around about this time the Israelis have realised they did not, as is their usual practice, attack a bunch of unarmed Palestinians whose only means of defending themselves were the stones they picked up from the street. Instead, they attacked Turkey.
Oops, Mr, Netnatyu, or however you spell your name, Turkey has several thing the Palestinians don’t have: A navy. An army. A seat on NATO. Influence in the UN equal to or greater than yours. And, if Cyprus is any indication, a willingness to invade states they peercieve as hostile, (just like your war criminals regularly invade or steal Palestinian land.)
Mr. Israeli P.M. To put it bluntly, you goofed! You’ve vroken the first rule of Israeli warfare: Never attack anyone bigger than you.
Tough shit!
I figure around about this time the Israelis have realised they did not, as is their usual practice, attack a bunch of unarmed Palestinians whose only means of defending themselves were the stones they picked up from the street. Instead, they attacked Turkey.
Oops, Mr, Netnatyu, or however you spell your name, Turkey has several thing the Palestinians don’t have: A navy. An army. A seat on NATO. Influence in the UN equal to or greater than yours. And, if Cyprus is any indication, a willingness to invade states they peercieve as hostile, (just like your war criminals regularly invade or steal Palestinian land.)
Mr. Israeli P.M. To put it bluntly, you goofed! You’ve vroken the first rule of Israeli warfare: Never attack anyone bigger than you.
Tough shit!
@98. Paul, I can’t help but think this won’t be a major problem for the Turkish ruling class continuing their relationship with Israel. After all I believe they are looking for EU membership and their patron, the US, will undoubtedly pull them into line. If an Arab regime like Mubarak’s can do essentially the same thing as the Israeli’s have as well as train Fatah gunmen in their coup attempt in Gaza I can’t see it being a major problem for a regime that doesn’t even share a border.
Though I could be wrong…
@98. Paul, I can’t help but think this won’t be a major problem for the Turkish ruling class continuing their relationship with Israel. After all I believe they are looking for EU membership and their patron, the US, will undoubtedly pull them into line. If an Arab regime like Mubarak’s can do essentially the same thing as the Israeli’s have as well as train Fatah gunmen in their coup attempt in Gaza I can’t see it being a major problem for a regime that doesn’t even share a border.
Though I could be wrong…
Chav @ 88,
I’ve only looked at it briefly on teh Internet, but popular feeling in Turkey is running high against the Israelis right now, And Turkey has already said the next aid flotilla will have a naval escort. What with popular outrage domestically, I wouldn’t write off the extent of the Turickish response yet, Though I take your point about the attitude of the ruling elite. When was it ever not thus.
And – WTF is Rudd doing about getting the 3 Australians out of Israeli detention? I can’t wait to hear the truth from them. We certainly didn’t get it from that Israeli foreign office spiv on Lateline last night.
Chav @ 88,
I’ve only looked at it briefly on teh Internet, but popular feeling in Turkey is running high against the Israelis right now, And Turkey has already said the next aid flotilla will have a naval escort. What with popular outrage domestically, I wouldn’t write off the extent of the Turickish response yet, Though I take your point about the attitude of the ruling elite. When was it ever not thus.
And – WTF is Rudd doing about getting the 3 Australians out of Israeli detention? I can’t wait to hear the truth from them. We certainly didn’t get it from that Israeli foreign office spiv on Lateline last night.
LTL has a point.
Events like the Peace Flotilla can serve many agendas. The weightiest of those agendas isn’t in Gaza, which is well and truly under the Israeli thumb, but in Turkey, whose politics are dynamic.
Islamism is on the rise in Turkey. This episode is a clear embarrassment to the secularist, militarist clique in Turkey.
Recent events will encourage Islamism in Turkey to the electoral detriment of the secularist, militarist clique.
Bush’s cack-handed imbecility in the ME stimulated Turkish Islamism. Netanyahu’s chauvinism has supercharged it.
LTL has a point.
Events like the Peace Flotilla can serve many agendas. The weightiest of those agendas isn’t in Gaza, which is well and truly under the Israeli thumb, but in Turkey, whose politics are dynamic.
Islamism is on the rise in Turkey. This episode is a clear embarrassment to the secularist, militarist clique in Turkey.
Recent events will encourage Islamism in Turkey to the electoral detriment of the secularist, militarist clique.
Bush’s cack-handed imbecility in the ME stimulated Turkish Islamism. Netanyahu’s chauvinism has supercharged it.
Andrew E said:
Not cute, but correct. That is its general name. The USSR/CCCP wasn’t even a bit socialist and the “soviets” were more apparent than real. The GDR/DDR wasn’t democratic either — at least in any sense most of us here would understand the term. The UK isn’t that united and probably isn’t a kingdom in any meaningful sense. And even here, we don’t really think that Salient Green or Derrida Derrider is anything but a chosen nym.
Although we westerners like to think we own the word “democratic” it is possible to interpret it to refer to the social power of the populace constituted in common property. It is this attribute, common property, that is the “democratic” part of the DPRK. Property in the means of production is not alienated from the people. This is an expressly political claim, and one may demur on its reasonableness, in theory or practice, but it cannot be rejected out of hand.
The DPRK is of course, a dynastic, xenophobic and brutal autarky, in which the words “people” and “democratic” are in practice, offensively ironic. I still have no problem calling them by their chosen name any more than I find it problematic calling the Liberal party the Liberal party or the ALP the Labor Party. Both of those names refer to identities that are not only implausible right now, but have been for most of their existence.
Andrew E said:
Not cute, but correct. That is its general name. The USSR/CCCP wasn’t even a bit socialist and the “soviets” were more apparent than real. The GDR/DDR wasn’t democratic either — at least in any sense most of us here would understand the term. The UK isn’t that united and probably isn’t a kingdom in any meaningful sense. And even here, we don’t really think that Salient Green or Derrida Derrider is anything but a chosen nym.
Although we westerners like to think we own the word “democratic” it is possible to interpret it to refer to the social power of the populace constituted in common property. It is this attribute, common property, that is the “democratic” part of the DPRK. Property in the means of production is not alienated from the people. This is an expressly political claim, and one may demur on its reasonableness, in theory or practice, but it cannot be rejected out of hand.
The DPRK is of course, a dynastic, xenophobic and brutal autarky, in which the words “people” and “democratic” are in practice, offensively ironic. I still have no problem calling them by their chosen name any more than I find it problematic calling the Liberal party the Liberal party or the ALP the Labor Party. Both of those names refer to identities that are not only implausible right now, but have been for most of their existence.
The Zionists have also infiltrated the Australian Football League. See today’s announcement of the recruitment of Israel Falau.
The Zionists have also infiltrated the Australian Football League. See today’s announcement of the recruitment of Israel Falau.
I too think that something happened before that scene we’ve all been shown.
This reminds me of the children overboard incident: only navy video was available, Howard claimed it was self-evident with many witnesses, but he could only show a few still photos from long after the event and no navy personnel could verify his account. Sure enough, in time he was shown to be a lying prick (again). Similarly the killing of Menezes in London, and the newspaper vendor again last year: initially the bully releases a few choice shots to prove a point, then the real story comes flooding out, but it’s too late.
I wonder how many Turkish journalists were on that boat and what will happen when their accounts start filtering out? I doubt McGeough and Veraghty’s account is going to exonerate the IDF, and nor will the Aussie who got shot in the leg.
I too think that something happened before that scene we’ve all been shown.
This reminds me of the children overboard incident: only navy video was available, Howard claimed it was self-evident with many witnesses, but he could only show a few still photos from long after the event and no navy personnel could verify his account. Sure enough, in time he was shown to be a lying prick (again). Similarly the killing of Menezes in London, and the newspaper vendor again last year: initially the bully releases a few choice shots to prove a point, then the real story comes flooding out, but it’s too late.
I wonder how many Turkish journalists were on that boat and what will happen when their accounts start filtering out? I doubt McGeough and Veraghty’s account is going to exonerate the IDF, and nor will the Aussie who got shot in the leg.
I reckon you’re wrong, Chav. For a start, Turkey has changed – these days public opinion matters. The cozy arrangements various Turkish generals have had with the Israelis aint gonna survive this. It’s true the Turks want to keep those they would describe as their fellow Europeans happy, but those Europeans are not the US – in fact they’re almost as pissed off at Israel as the Turks.
But Mubarak’s position is really interesting. His acquiescence to US pressure over Gaza is already deeply unpopular at home, and I reckon he’ll now have to call off the blockade unless he’s willing to seriously endanger his regime. An Egyptian revolution would be high on the list of US security nightmares.
This illegal, immoral and incompetent action is going to cost Israel dearly. Of course it’s their own stupid fault – they’ve let the IDF and the Border Police be a law unto themselves for years. Just like policemen, soldiers and spooks everywhere if you don’t constantly call them to account they become brutal, corrupt and incompetent (generally if you find one of these traits in a security force the other two aren’t far away).
I reckon you’re wrong, Chav. For a start, Turkey has changed – these days public opinion matters. The cozy arrangements various Turkish generals have had with the Israelis aint gonna survive this. It’s true the Turks want to keep those they would describe as their fellow Europeans happy, but those Europeans are not the US – in fact they’re almost as pissed off at Israel as the Turks.
But Mubarak’s position is really interesting. His acquiescence to US pressure over Gaza is already deeply unpopular at home, and I reckon he’ll now have to call off the blockade unless he’s willing to seriously endanger his regime. An Egyptian revolution would be high on the list of US security nightmares.
This illegal, immoral and incompetent action is going to cost Israel dearly. Of course it’s their own stupid fault – they’ve let the IDF and the Border Police be a law unto themselves for years. Just like policemen, soldiers and spooks everywhere if you don’t constantly call them to account they become brutal, corrupt and incompetent (generally if you find one of these traits in a security force the other two aren’t far away).
A point of clarification. The flotilla was called the Freedom Flotilla, not the Peace Flotilla. The organisers are the Free Gaza Movement. As the Israelis know only too well, words are important. We should use the victims’ name for themselves, not one dreamt up by an Israeli PR unit.
A point of clarification. The flotilla was called the Freedom Flotilla, not the Peace Flotilla. The organisers are the Free Gaza Movement. As the Israelis know only too well, words are important. We should use the victims’ name for themselves, not one dreamt up by an Israeli PR unit.
The Guardian have started piecing together an independent account:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/31/israeli-attacks-gaza-flotilla-activists
It would appear that the ship was sending out distress signals before the attack, and journalists on the stern claimed the ship came under heavy fire. There’s also a possibility that the captain of the 8000 was shot, and the assault “began in earnest” 40 miles from the coast, but the final distress signal the main ship sent was registered from 70 miles out. This is the Guardian’s account of that:
The journalists’ account of the attack also doesn’t quite match the idea that there were a couple of nice chaps with paintball guns trapezing in for a game of skirmish:
I wonder if “helicopters ahead” is a mistranslation? Because if not this indicates that they were under heavy attack before the soldiers landed, which is also consistent with a distress signal sent some time before the video we saw…
The Guardian have started piecing together an independent account:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/31/israeli-attacks-gaza-flotilla-activists
It would appear that the ship was sending out distress signals before the attack, and journalists on the stern claimed the ship came under heavy fire. There’s also a possibility that the captain of the 8000 was shot, and the assault “began in earnest” 40 miles from the coast, but the final distress signal the main ship sent was registered from 70 miles out. This is the Guardian’s account of that:
The journalists’ account of the attack also doesn’t quite match the idea that there were a couple of nice chaps with paintball guns trapezing in for a game of skirmish:
I wonder if “helicopters ahead” is a mistranslation? Because if not this indicates that they were under heavy attack before the soldiers landed, which is also consistent with a distress signal sent some time before the video we saw…
“Property in the means of production is not alienated from the people.”
It can most certainly be rejected out of hand. The means of production is controlled by the state, however the workers certainly do not control the state, a brutal Stalinist ruling class does. So much a class is it that unlike even bourgeois democratic governments leadership is able to be automatically passed from father to son!
“Property in the means of production is not alienated from the people.”
It can most certainly be rejected out of hand. The means of production is controlled by the state, however the workers certainly do not control the state, a brutal Stalinist ruling class does. So much a class is it that unlike even bourgeois democratic governments leadership is able to be automatically passed from father to son!
No need for apologies people. Those who maligned me shall be living with their humiliation.
Some think of it as being a member of the “101st Keyboard Squadron”,
Actually it is called “Research”. If I can do it, y’all can.
Another way of putting it is “Engaging Brain before putting Mouth into gear”.
…A habit seemingly practiced in moderation by Hal9000, Sg, Tigtog, Sam, Derrida Derrida, Fran Barlow, and a special mention for Adrian who finds it “nauseating” that I wasn’t making stuff up but had in fact done a quick spot of research before typing. Plus various others who sneered at the very suggestion that I had a point.
Tut, tut, tut, people, circle jerking over what vile creatures Isreali soldiers are is no substitute for fact-checking.
No need for apologies people. Those who maligned me shall be living with their humiliation.
Some think of it as being a member of the “101st Keyboard Squadron”,
Actually it is called “Research”. If I can do it, y’all can.
Another way of putting it is “Engaging Brain before putting Mouth into gear”.
…A habit seemingly practiced in moderation by Hal9000, Sg, Tigtog, Sam, Derrida Derrida, Fran Barlow, and a special mention for Adrian who finds it “nauseating” that I wasn’t making stuff up but had in fact done a quick spot of research before typing. Plus various others who sneered at the very suggestion that I had a point.
Tut, tut, tut, people, circle jerking over what vile creatures Isreali soldiers are is no substitute for fact-checking.
Well, the Turkish-Islamist sucker punch theory will have to survive a few challenges:
a. the improbability that Turkish Intel and Mossad wouldnt have noticed 30 Islamist ‘fighters’ boarding the high profile, widely pre-advertised freedom flottila.
b. the reports (including an Al-Jazeera journalist not from Turkey) that the reason this group was agitated was that the ship had already been fired on before boarding.
c. The really serious improbability of predicting the IDF boarding procedure would have been quite so amateurish and isoloating (hence the need for LTLs ‘mole theory’, I guess).
d. The fact that they were completely unarmed COULD be a sign of clever planning – or a really obvious corollary of not being a trained Islamist fighter.
Anywyay, there are plenty of people on that boat who’ll be talking soon.
Well, the Turkish-Islamist sucker punch theory will have to survive a few challenges:
a. the improbability that Turkish Intel and Mossad wouldnt have noticed 30 Islamist ‘fighters’ boarding the high profile, widely pre-advertised freedom flottila.
b. the reports (including an Al-Jazeera journalist not from Turkey) that the reason this group was agitated was that the ship had already been fired on before boarding.
c. The really serious improbability of predicting the IDF boarding procedure would have been quite so amateurish and isoloating (hence the need for LTLs ‘mole theory’, I guess).
d. The fact that they were completely unarmed COULD be a sign of clever planning – or a really obvious corollary of not being a trained Islamist fighter.
Anywyay, there are plenty of people on that boat who’ll be talking soon.
… (After that)…
If we get a break from the general backslapping & agreeing that Israel is dastardly, dumb, hotheaded & stupid, perhaps we could consider why when Six ships were boarded, there were significant fatalities, but only aboard one ship.
We seem to be (thus far anyway) short of barristers & other legally trained minds on this thread.
If this was a legal case I was involved in, the first question a barrister would put to me would be along the lines of: Why, when there were 6 ships in the convoy, was this the only one that turned into a firefight?
Perhaps some fact-checking on the background of this ship, (hint for the google-challenged majority of you: Look into the ownership)
… (After that)…
If we get a break from the general backslapping & agreeing that Israel is dastardly, dumb, hotheaded & stupid, perhaps we could consider why when Six ships were boarded, there were significant fatalities, but only aboard one ship.
We seem to be (thus far anyway) short of barristers & other legally trained minds on this thread.
If this was a legal case I was involved in, the first question a barrister would put to me would be along the lines of: Why, when there were 6 ships in the convoy, was this the only one that turned into a firefight?
Perhaps some fact-checking on the background of this ship, (hint for the google-challenged majority of you: Look into the ownership)
It’s rather like the inverse of the Exodus 1947 affair, isn’t it? Where Zionists loaded a boat with concentration camp survivors and set sail from Cyprus to Palestine to embarrass the British and galvanise international opinion in favor of Zionism.
“Given the costs of pissing off Turkey – one of the few states in the region they have passable relations with – I think we’re looking at either a massive stuffup by the IDF or calculated shift in relations from Tel Aviv.”
I’m a little curious about whether Anakara had any involvement in facilitating the flotilla in the first place.
d
It’s rather like the inverse of the Exodus 1947 affair, isn’t it? Where Zionists loaded a boat with concentration camp survivors and set sail from Cyprus to Palestine to embarrass the British and galvanise international opinion in favor of Zionism.
“Given the costs of pissing off Turkey – one of the few states in the region they have passable relations with – I think we’re looking at either a massive stuffup by the IDF or calculated shift in relations from Tel Aviv.”
I’m a little curious about whether Anakara had any involvement in facilitating the flotilla in the first place.
d
“If this was a legal case I was involved in, the first question a barrister would put to me would be along the lines of: Why, when there were 6 ships in the convoy, was this the only one that turned into a firefight?”
It wouldn’t be, why was the Israeli navy engaging in an act of piracy in international waters in order to intercept a flotilla carrying humanitarian aid destined for another country?
Fuck that, I ain’t apologising for no thang!
“If this was a legal case I was involved in, the first question a barrister would put to me would be along the lines of: Why, when there were 6 ships in the convoy, was this the only one that turned into a firefight?”
It wouldn’t be, why was the Israeli navy engaging in an act of piracy in international waters in order to intercept a flotilla carrying humanitarian aid destined for another country?
Fuck that, I ain’t apologising for no thang!
Steve, I’ve already put up a link to news indicating that
a) there were gunshot wounds in at least one other ship (the 8000) and
b) there is evidence that the flagship was attacked before it was boarded
Unless you think, somehow, that these ships opened fire on the Israeli navy first (and I’m sure you can find evidence to support that claim from Melanie Phillips), you’ll have to accept that the reason people on the flagship were killed in such numbers is probably closely related to the fact that that is the ship the IDF decided to attack.
Also, reading the Melanie Phillips blog and reciting her stupid opinions doesn’t count as research; it counts as being very very stupid.
Steve, I’ve already put up a link to news indicating that
a) there were gunshot wounds in at least one other ship (the 8000) and
b) there is evidence that the flagship was attacked before it was boarded
Unless you think, somehow, that these ships opened fire on the Israeli navy first (and I’m sure you can find evidence to support that claim from Melanie Phillips), you’ll have to accept that the reason people on the flagship were killed in such numbers is probably closely related to the fact that that is the ship the IDF decided to attack.
Also, reading the Melanie Phillips blog and reciting her stupid opinions doesn’t count as research; it counts as being very very stupid.
Chav Said:
Oh there’s no doubt that property relations in the DPRK are not “democratic” even in the sense I suggested for the term. I did make that point — hence my description of the regime as a dynastic [...] autarky.
My point was that the mere lack of bourgeois democratic forms is not a bar to a political claim that a regime is “democratic” in some other sense.
Were there to be a producer-centred social revolution here, one might well describe the outcome as “the Popular Democratic Republic of Australia” regardless of whether the standard usages of representative capitalist democracy were observed.
Chav Said:
Oh there’s no doubt that property relations in the DPRK are not “democratic” even in the sense I suggested for the term. I did make that point — hence my description of the regime as a dynastic [...] autarky.
My point was that the mere lack of bourgeois democratic forms is not a bar to a political claim that a regime is “democratic” in some other sense.
Were there to be a producer-centred social revolution here, one might well describe the outcome as “the Popular Democratic Republic of Australia” regardless of whether the standard usages of representative capitalist democracy were observed.
SATP – you stated that
There has been no evidence provided for any of this. The sole source cited (and not by you directly) merely claimed some people were shown singing a song commemorating a thousand year-old battle about the glory days of advancing Islam. No ‘Kill the Jews’. No genocide.
Surely, if this was such a hot story, the extensive Israeli propaganda machine would have made more of it. But maybe you’re just smarter and better informed than they are, SATP.
And last, no response to my question at #6. So I take it you’re happy for opinions to be the basis for a decision to kill.
SATP – you stated that
There has been no evidence provided for any of this. The sole source cited (and not by you directly) merely claimed some people were shown singing a song commemorating a thousand year-old battle about the glory days of advancing Islam. No ‘Kill the Jews’. No genocide.
Surely, if this was such a hot story, the extensive Israeli propaganda machine would have made more of it. But maybe you’re just smarter and better informed than they are, SATP.
And last, no response to my question at #6. So I take it you’re happy for opinions to be the basis for a decision to kill.
You don’t have to be armed or a “fighter” to be an Islamist.
You don’t have to be armed or a “fighter” to be an Islamist.
“Islamism is on the rise in Turkey. This episode is a clear embarrassment to the secularist, militarist clique in Turkey.
Recent events will encourage Islamism in Turkey to the electoral detriment of the secularist, militarist clique.”
It’s equally plausible to flip your second speculation around. Turkey’s close relationship with Israel has been driven by the military and been a constant aggravation for Erdogan’s centerist government wants to keep business, the military and religious forces happy and really doesn’t want other Islamist parties to get any momentum. Breaking relations with Israel pulls the rug out from underneath them and makes him look better.
The rest of the secularists will get over it quickly enough. Israel was important for Turkey as a buffer and distraction for Soviet-aligned ME countries back in the day and Turkey needed to stay close to the US. Those days are over. The US needs to stay friendly with Turkey irrespective of the relationship with Israel.
The big, long-term question in Turkey is not secular v religious, it’s Kemalist isolationism v Turkey as geopolitical leader of the Muslim world. Says me.
d
“Islamism is on the rise in Turkey. This episode is a clear embarrassment to the secularist, militarist clique in Turkey.
Recent events will encourage Islamism in Turkey to the electoral detriment of the secularist, militarist clique.”
It’s equally plausible to flip your second speculation around. Turkey’s close relationship with Israel has been driven by the military and been a constant aggravation for Erdogan’s centerist government wants to keep business, the military and religious forces happy and really doesn’t want other Islamist parties to get any momentum. Breaking relations with Israel pulls the rug out from underneath them and makes him look better.
The rest of the secularists will get over it quickly enough. Israel was important for Turkey as a buffer and distraction for Soviet-aligned ME countries back in the day and Turkey needed to stay close to the US. Those days are over. The US needs to stay friendly with Turkey irrespective of the relationship with Israel.
The big, long-term question in Turkey is not secular v religious, it’s Kemalist isolationism v Turkey as geopolitical leader of the Muslim world. Says me.
d
Why, when there were 6 ships in the convoy, was this the only one that turned into a firefight?
Because, for one reason or another, the people on the other ships didn’t resist the illegal boarding of their vessel. Which one reason or another might include: because they’d just seen what happened to the people who did.
How is that significant?
Why, when there were 6 ships in the convoy, was this the only one that turned into a firefight?
Because, for one reason or another, the people on the other ships didn’t resist the illegal boarding of their vessel. Which one reason or another might include: because they’d just seen what happened to the people who did.
How is that significant?
Rachel Cory will be able to compare notes.
Rachel Cory will be able to compare notes.
tssk @67: “…nuclear state with a seige mentality”
That about says it.
Their behaviour recently suggests that the Israeli leadership has lost all sense of proportion.
They could well be on a negative spiral of action and reaction to the global and regional response now. Crazy bad, as someone said upthread.
tssk @67: “…nuclear state with a seige mentality”
That about says it.
Their behaviour recently suggests that the Israeli leadership has lost all sense of proportion.
They could well be on a negative spiral of action and reaction to the global and regional response now. Crazy bad, as someone said upthread.
Is that meant to be funny, Razor?
Is that meant to be funny, Razor?
Robert Merkel @74: “At least one of the Israeli soldiers was “armed” with a paintball gun, though they were also apparently carrying pistols.”
Is it only me, or does anyone else think carrying a paintball gun into a tense situation smacks of high farce, and is only likely in the movies?
Robert Merkel @74: “At least one of the Israeli soldiers was “armed” with a paintball gun, though they were also apparently carrying pistols.”
Is it only me, or does anyone else think carrying a paintball gun into a tense situation smacks of high farce, and is only likely in the movies?
There will be assertions that Israeli soldiers were attacked as they boarded the boat and this may be true. Footage of Israeli soldiers being fought off will be used to move the debate about the rights and wrongs of self defence. This does not change the fact that,
1. Israel illegally occupies Gaza and has no right to bloackade the territory. It is not Israeli territory.
2. The boats were in international waters approaching Gaza, not Israel. Therefore there is no basis for Israel boarding the boats by saying that they were about to violate Israeli territory. They were not.
3. The boarding of the boat is as an act of piracy by a rogue navy.
The matter should be dealt with throught the courts and the generals that gave the orders to board these ships should be charged.
There will be assertions that Israeli soldiers were attacked as they boarded the boat and this may be true. Footage of Israeli soldiers being fought off will be used to move the debate about the rights and wrongs of self defence. This does not change the fact that,
1. Israel illegally occupies Gaza and has no right to bloackade the territory. It is not Israeli territory.
2. The boats were in international waters approaching Gaza, not Israel. Therefore there is no basis for Israel boarding the boats by saying that they were about to violate Israeli territory. They were not.
3. The boarding of the boat is as an act of piracy by a rogue navy.
The matter should be dealt with throught the courts and the generals that gave the orders to board these ships should be charged.
Correction. Should read Israel illegally controls Gaza, not occupies.
Correction. Should read Israel illegally controls Gaza, not occupies.
Well, I thought that was LTLs claim, Katz.
Further to Spana, I’m still waiting for some footage or evidence which would justify shooting up to 19 people dead, and wounding numerous others, including an Australian, on two boats – even if 4 of them had a stick, and a chucked an IDF conscript off the boat, after his officers floated him that hospital pass.
If thats all the IDF has, they’re well in the shit here.
Well, I thought that was LTLs claim, Katz.
Further to Spana, I’m still waiting for some footage or evidence which would justify shooting up to 19 people dead, and wounding numerous others, including an Australian, on two boats – even if 4 of them had a stick, and a chucked an IDF conscript off the boat, after his officers floated him that hospital pass.
If thats all the IDF has, they’re well in the shit here.
Perhaps LTL’s rather perfervid version of it does. But the idea of a Gandhiesque maritime provocation doesn’t require armaments.
Quite the opposite were the provocateurs to be faithful to the original model.
The potency of Gandhi’s model of civil disobedience compels the Israeli authorities to lie about armaments and so forth. And indeed they are transparent lies.
Perhaps LTL’s rather perfervid version of it does. But the idea of a Gandhiesque maritime provocation doesn’t require armaments.
Quite the opposite were the provocateurs to be faithful to the original model.
The potency of Gandhi’s model of civil disobedience compels the Israeli authorities to lie about armaments and so forth. And indeed they are transparent lies.
The IDF is a second rate organisation with first rate equipment fighting third rate opposition.
What a fucking balls up.
The IDF is a second rate organisation with first rate equipment fighting third rate opposition.
What a fucking balls up.
Yes it will (& time will tell), but with what we can see of the facts now, it works. Lets face it, why would the Islamists go to all this trouble for just a tactical aim when with only a little extra effort you can cripple the Turkish-Israeli alliance and strike a blow against the Turkish secular government and for Islamism in Turkey?
Dunno that they needed any additional agitation, Islamists are just more god-botherers and they seem to be agitated pretty much all the time.
How is predicting a response hard? If you control the information they have you establish the situation they expect. If all they expect is a pack of European activists waving protest signs and all carrying cameras, they’ll go in softly. Then you present them with a bunch of armed fighters instead. This is not hard – hell, who does not buy a car this way, setting up the salesman’s situation and then trying to change it to unsettle him a bit and get a better deal?
Look at the tapes. The fighters were efficient and coordinated, they knew what they were doing. European anarchists and progressives use the same tactics for that reason at G8 gabfests too. No guns = no hassle from the Turks and no paper trail. That’s smart planning. Still reckon their tactical planning was shoddy. Ten spears or ten swords and not one Israeli boarder would have lived.
The longer game is to isolate the Israelis so that the next war leaves them with no allies. Hezbollah now has plenty of rockets able to pound Tel Aviv, which means a hell of a lot of dead jews and most of the world cheering about it.
Won’t that be glorious.
And the Israeli reaction?? Wonder what they plan for there?
LTL
Yes it will (& time will tell), but with what we can see of the facts now, it works. Lets face it, why would the Islamists go to all this trouble for just a tactical aim when with only a little extra effort you can cripple the Turkish-Israeli alliance and strike a blow against the Turkish secular government and for Islamism in Turkey?
Dunno that they needed any additional agitation, Islamists are just more god-botherers and they seem to be agitated pretty much all the time.
How is predicting a response hard? If you control the information they have you establish the situation they expect. If all they expect is a pack of European activists waving protest signs and all carrying cameras, they’ll go in softly. Then you present them with a bunch of armed fighters instead. This is not hard – hell, who does not buy a car this way, setting up the salesman’s situation and then trying to change it to unsettle him a bit and get a better deal?
Look at the tapes. The fighters were efficient and coordinated, they knew what they were doing. European anarchists and progressives use the same tactics for that reason at G8 gabfests too. No guns = no hassle from the Turks and no paper trail. That’s smart planning. Still reckon their tactical planning was shoddy. Ten spears or ten swords and not one Israeli boarder would have lived.
The longer game is to isolate the Israelis so that the next war leaves them with no allies. Hezbollah now has plenty of rockets able to pound Tel Aviv, which means a hell of a lot of dead jews and most of the world cheering about it.
Won’t that be glorious.
And the Israeli reaction?? Wonder what they plan for there?
LTL
“The longer game is to isolate the Israelis so that the next war leaves them with no allies. Hezbollah now has plenty of rockets able to pound Tel Aviv, which means a hell of a lot of dead jews and most of the world cheering about it.
Won’t that be glorious.”
So the last sentence isn’t a question?
“The longer game is to isolate the Israelis so that the next war leaves them with no allies. Hezbollah now has plenty of rockets able to pound Tel Aviv, which means a hell of a lot of dead jews and most of the world cheering about it.
Won’t that be glorious.”
So the last sentence isn’t a question?
“Look at the tapes. The fighters were efficient and coordinated, they knew what they were doing.”
Debatable. Footage shows some using plastic chairs, and several guys wielding huge, clumsy bits of what looks like building materials. The knife attack I’ve seen shows a guy without the first clue of using a blade. One soldier was thrown off a deck, while the IDF claims another resisted being kidnapped – hardly coordinated tactics.
“Look at the tapes. The fighters were efficient and coordinated, they knew what they were doing.”
Debatable. Footage shows some using plastic chairs, and several guys wielding huge, clumsy bits of what looks like building materials. The knife attack I’ve seen shows a guy without the first clue of using a blade. One soldier was thrown off a deck, while the IDF claims another resisted being kidnapped – hardly coordinated tactics.
LTL @129, I guess Occam’s Razor doesn’t apply to political analysis of a situation?
The more convoluted the better, huh?
A thinks B will do X, so therefore he plans to do Y. Except that A knows B will suspect him of deviousness, so B is expecting Y, so therefore A won’t use Y. Perhaps he should use Z? Or X to catch him off-guard? But B knows that A knows that B expects Y, so is expecting X or Z…and A knows that B knows that…
Bloody hell.
Perish the thought of just plain negotiating in good faith.
LTL @129, I guess Occam’s Razor doesn’t apply to political analysis of a situation?
The more convoluted the better, huh?
A thinks B will do X, so therefore he plans to do Y. Except that A knows B will suspect him of deviousness, so B is expecting Y, so therefore A won’t use Y. Perhaps he should use Z? Or X to catch him off-guard? But B knows that A knows that B expects Y, so is expecting X or Z…and A knows that B knows that…
Bloody hell.
Perish the thought of just plain negotiating in good faith.
I think it’s fair to point out that confrontation, not humanitarian aid was the aim of this flotilla. I’m not sure it helps for people to pretend to be surprised and outraged that a confrontation occurred.
Hamas Media
The Al-Jazeera footage
I think it’s fair to point out that confrontation, not humanitarian aid was the aim of this flotilla. I’m not sure it helps for people to pretend to be surprised and outraged that a confrontation occurred.
Hamas Media
The Al-Jazeera footage
Ha! Mark Regev, an ex-Melbourne boy, has just said on SBS that the protestors attacked the soldiers with molotov cocktails, machetes and live fire!
Ha! Mark Regev, an ex-Melbourne boy, has just said on SBS that the protestors attacked the soldiers with molotov cocktails, machetes and live fire!
Wonderful hasbara – armed troops boarding a civilian ship in international waters, kill 10 in ‘self-defense’.
Such a flexible term ‘self-defense’.
Wonderful hasbara – armed troops boarding a civilian ship in international waters, kill 10 in ‘self-defense’.
Such a flexible term ‘self-defense’.
@Walter, the boats were carrying humanitarian aid & construction supplies which are being distributed in Gaza right now according to reports on ABC radio. (eta: such distribution to mollify some of the outrage in Gaza itself might be the first sensible response to this whole fiasco from Israel yet)
The
convoyFreedom Flotilla was certainly meant to be politically provocative – that’s not the same thing as seeking a combat confrontation. Live rounds fired in combat at civilians with no firearms during an act of piracy should be bloody surprising, and certainly should be viewed as outrageous.@Walter, the boats were carrying humanitarian aid & construction supplies which are being distributed in Gaza right now according to reports on ABC radio. (eta: such distribution to mollify some of the outrage in Gaza itself might be the first sensible response to this whole fiasco from Israel yet)
The
convoyFreedom Flotilla was certainly meant to be politically provocative – that’s not the same thing as seeking a combat confrontation. Live rounds fired in combat at civilians with no firearms during an act of piracy should be bloody surprising, and certainly should be viewed as outrageous.“I think it’s fair to point out that confrontation, not humanitarian aid was the aim of this flotilla. I’m not sure it helps for people to pretend to be surprised and outraged that a confrontation occurred.”
It’s not fair because it’s not true, and even if it were, if killing at least 19 unarmed civilians is your idea of a ‘confrontation’ then I have news for you.
I think its fair to point out that Israel has shown itself to be a murderous, brutish state that in some ways is worse than North Korea. A rogue state in all but name.
“I think it’s fair to point out that confrontation, not humanitarian aid was the aim of this flotilla. I’m not sure it helps for people to pretend to be surprised and outraged that a confrontation occurred.”
It’s not fair because it’s not true, and even if it were, if killing at least 19 unarmed civilians is your idea of a ‘confrontation’ then I have news for you.
I think its fair to point out that Israel has shown itself to be a murderous, brutish state that in some ways is worse than North Korea. A rogue state in all but name.
It’s been suggested that the paintball guns were actually modified to fire pepper spray, something like this:
http://www.slashgear.com/the-law-fights-back-top-cop-toys-233570/
That would make a lot more sense for crowd control than an actual paintball gun.
It’s been suggested that the paintball guns were actually modified to fire pepper spray, something like this:
http://www.slashgear.com/the-law-fights-back-top-cop-toys-233570/
That would make a lot more sense for crowd control than an actual paintball gun.
Walter’s videos depict folks who speak Arabic.
Most of the victims of the Israeli atrocity were Turks, whose native language is Turkish.
Walter’s videos depict folks who speak Arabic.
Most of the victims of the Israeli atrocity were Turks, whose native language is Turkish.
Walter @133, not that I am a huge fan of muslim martyrdom concepts, but an alternative interpretation of those two videos could be that they fully expected a ferocious resistance by Israel to any running of the Israeli blockade?
They may be accustomed to thinking that Israel is powerful and ruthless, and may thus think that the Israeli military will use them for target practice?
The singing of songs is a time honoured tradition when facing conflict; especially songs of past successes. Incidentally, the Marseillaise (French national anthem) isn’t exactly a peaceloving set of lyrics, as I understand it.
Not that I would suggest these are a bunch of peaceniks on a Sunday picnic. It looks like they are expecting trouble as a result of running the blockade. However, you could not necessarily infer from the evidence to date that they were “looking for trouble”.
It could be possible to imagine a scenario where helping someone might make someone else extremely angry, but people might still feel compelled to act if the situation were dire enough. What about those people who tried to intervene when that madman attacked to woman and set fire to her at the petrol station?
Walter @133, not that I am a huge fan of muslim martyrdom concepts, but an alternative interpretation of those two videos could be that they fully expected a ferocious resistance by Israel to any running of the Israeli blockade?
They may be accustomed to thinking that Israel is powerful and ruthless, and may thus think that the Israeli military will use them for target practice?
The singing of songs is a time honoured tradition when facing conflict; especially songs of past successes. Incidentally, the Marseillaise (French national anthem) isn’t exactly a peaceloving set of lyrics, as I understand it.
Not that I would suggest these are a bunch of peaceniks on a Sunday picnic. It looks like they are expecting trouble as a result of running the blockade. However, you could not necessarily infer from the evidence to date that they were “looking for trouble”.
It could be possible to imagine a scenario where helping someone might make someone else extremely angry, but people might still feel compelled to act if the situation were dire enough. What about those people who tried to intervene when that madman attacked to woman and set fire to her at the petrol station?
hey walter, if those lads on that boat were Maori expecting the police to move in in a few hours, what do you think they might be doing? If they were British, would they be maybe singing a certain quite confrontational anthem about victory on the high seas?
What you’re doing there is called “clutching at straws.”
hey walter, if those lads on that boat were Maori expecting the police to move in in a few hours, what do you think they might be doing? If they were British, would they be maybe singing a certain quite confrontational anthem about victory on the high seas?
What you’re doing there is called “clutching at straws.”
LTL has an interesting theory which seems to suggest that we should be outraged by what happened but being outraged would mean we fall into the terrorist trap that’s been set up and therefore the terrorists win.
The deaths of these 19 are therefore changed from death as an act of war or piracy and changed into a hostile act of asymetrical warfare.
Imagine the way we could change the way society operated if we carried this logic through into the real world. I look forward to the education department cracking down on nerds for making bullies look bad and bruising their fists as part of the plan to delegitmise bullies.
Mind you in the light of day if they had known that they were being boarded by the IDF (and they must of) the only correct reponse would have been to assume prone positions with their faces down and their hands behind their backs.
If the Australian government and NATO really want to help they should look at how many Palestinian refugees we should be taking to Israel can take Gaza. That’s unless we’re suggesting they stoicly march into the desert.
LTL has an interesting theory which seems to suggest that we should be outraged by what happened but being outraged would mean we fall into the terrorist trap that’s been set up and therefore the terrorists win.
The deaths of these 19 are therefore changed from death as an act of war or piracy and changed into a hostile act of asymetrical warfare.
Imagine the way we could change the way society operated if we carried this logic through into the real world. I look forward to the education department cracking down on nerds for making bullies look bad and bruising their fists as part of the plan to delegitmise bullies.
Mind you in the light of day if they had known that they were being boarded by the IDF (and they must of) the only correct reponse would have been to assume prone positions with their faces down and their hands behind their backs.
If the Australian government and NATO really want to help they should look at how many Palestinian refugees we should be taking to Israel can take Gaza. That’s unless we’re suggesting they stoicly march into the desert.
Questions for the IDF:
a. What happened before the video footage we have seen?
b. Where is the footage of the 9 (or is it 19) people being killed, and others wounded?
c. How exactly does the footage we’ve seen function as a justification for 9 or more people then being shot dead? This is not remotely self-evident.
d. What are there so many dead if the IDF claims the soldiers were then instructed to shoot at legs?
e. Are reports of shots being fired on another ship (the 8000) accurate?
f. If the IDF is confident in its actions, why has it seized all other video footage?
g. When will eyewitnesses, including professional western journalists, be permitted to speak to the media?
h. Why did the usually unflappable Regev start talking about the ‘radical political agendas’ of the freedom flotilla, if the issue here was allegedly one of one rogue ship in an otherwise peaceful aid mission?
i. What is the basis in law for Israel’s blockade of Gaza?
Questions for the IDF:
a. What happened before the video footage we have seen?
b. Where is the footage of the 9 (or is it 19) people being killed, and others wounded?
c. How exactly does the footage we’ve seen function as a justification for 9 or more people then being shot dead? This is not remotely self-evident.
d. What are there so many dead if the IDF claims the soldiers were then instructed to shoot at legs?
e. Are reports of shots being fired on another ship (the 8000) accurate?
f. If the IDF is confident in its actions, why has it seized all other video footage?
g. When will eyewitnesses, including professional western journalists, be permitted to speak to the media?
h. Why did the usually unflappable Regev start talking about the ‘radical political agendas’ of the freedom flotilla, if the issue here was allegedly one of one rogue ship in an otherwise peaceful aid mission?
i. What is the basis in law for Israel’s blockade of Gaza?
Slightly longer SATP:
If I was the driver of an Israeli truck that ran into two Palestinians, one entering my truck through the windscreen and ending up on the back seat, the other going through the back window as well, the 1st question I would expect my barrister to ask of police at trial: “Why didn’t you charge the first guy with aggravated break and enter (in company) and the second with leaving the scene of a crime?”
Slightly longer SATP:
If I was the driver of an Israeli truck that ran into two Palestinians, one entering my truck through the windscreen and ending up on the back seat, the other going through the back window as well, the 1st question I would expect my barrister to ask of police at trial: “Why didn’t you charge the first guy with aggravated break and enter (in company) and the second with leaving the scene of a crime?”
An important question, Peter, since those two Palestinians confronted his truck.
An important question, Peter, since those two Palestinians confronted his truck.
Indeed Silkworm@134, not only a Melbourne boy but also a chief propagandist for the Israeli spin machine, and if I’m not mistaken nephew to that pillar of the community Marcus Einfeld, who is now languishing in prison because defrauding the RTA was preferable to paying a piddling speeding fine.
Indeed Silkworm@134, not only a Melbourne boy but also a chief propagandist for the Israeli spin machine, and if I’m not mistaken nephew to that pillar of the community Marcus Einfeld, who is now languishing in prison because defrauding the RTA was preferable to paying a piddling speeding fine.
Robbo, while Marcus Einfeld is … who he is… it must be said that his father Sid was a very good man.
Anyway, I don’t have time to read every post. Has Steve/Raelene/Geraldine pointed us to a source yet which shows people chanting “kill the Jews”?
And by source I don’t mean an assertion on another blog.
By the way, anybody who thinks that this is a watershed moment that will finally reign in the Greater Israelists is dreaming. They will continue to flip the bird to everybody and do what they feel like doing. Why? Because they can and because nobody who is in a position to influence them (read: the Americans) gives a shit about the Palestinians and even if they did it causes too many hassles in their domestic politics.
As for the Turks, not a chance. They want to enter the EU. Standing up to the Israelis is not on their agenda, not now, not ever.
Netanyahu et al really are [redacted].
Robbo, while Marcus Einfeld is … who he is… it must be said that his father Sid was a very good man.
Anyway, I don’t have time to read every post. Has Steve/Raelene/Geraldine pointed us to a source yet which shows people chanting “kill the Jews”?
And by source I don’t mean an assertion on another blog.
By the way, anybody who thinks that this is a watershed moment that will finally reign in the Greater Israelists is dreaming. They will continue to flip the bird to everybody and do what they feel like doing. Why? Because they can and because nobody who is in a position to influence them (read: the Americans) gives a shit about the Palestinians and even if they did it causes too many hassles in their domestic politics.
As for the Turks, not a chance. They want to enter the EU. Standing up to the Israelis is not on their agenda, not now, not ever.
Netanyahu et al really are [redacted].
Sam, whatever the strength of your feelings we can do without that last sentence.
Sam, whatever the strength of your feelings we can do without that last sentence.
Agreed GregM.
Sam, you besmirch the name of a lovely piece of anatomy by using it thusly.
Agreed GregM.
Sam, you besmirch the name of a lovely piece of anatomy by using it thusly.
Liam, I finally got a look at the film you linked to (my employer doesn’t care for us optimising our time with YouTube), and yes, it might be a paintball marker, but what you thought was a paintball hopper could equally be a nightsight of some sort. The resolution is too poor to be certain either way.
Liam, I finally got a look at the film you linked to (my employer doesn’t care for us optimising our time with YouTube), and yes, it might be a paintball marker, but what you thought was a paintball hopper could equally be a nightsight of some sort. The resolution is too poor to be certain either way.
I’m going with the pepper-spray gun theory, it make sense. That thing had some nasty stats, a little more effective as a riot-suppressant than a few pellets of paint.
I’m going with the pepper-spray gun theory, it make sense. That thing had some nasty stats, a little more effective as a riot-suppressant than a few pellets of paint.
I should add, I’ve played a lot of paintball, and seen (and fired) a fair few real guns.
I should add, I’ve played a lot of paintball, and seen (and fired) a fair few real guns.
GregM, I choose to be amused by your schoolmarm lecturing. If Sound of Music is ever remade, be sure to audition for the Julie Andrews character. You’ll only have to play yourself, and you’ll be a shoo-in for the part.
GregM, I choose to be amused by your schoolmarm lecturing. If Sound of Music is ever remade, be sure to audition for the Julie Andrews character. You’ll only have to play yourself, and you’ll be a shoo-in for the part.
Not a justification, but on what little we do know my guess as to the reason for the deaths is some combination of panic and revenge on the part of the Israeli marines.
Not a justification, but on what little we do know my guess as to the reason for the deaths is some combination of panic and revenge on the part of the Israeli marines.
The Guardian now has accounts coming out from survivors:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2010/jun/01/israel-flotilla-raid-fallout-live
The first account currently up (on their f-ing stupid blogging style of presenting news) is from a Knesset member, who claims there was no violence from protesters on her ship, and at least 3 dead.
The Guardian now has accounts coming out from survivors:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2010/jun/01/israel-flotilla-raid-fallout-live
The first account currently up (on their f-ing stupid blogging style of presenting news) is from a Knesset member, who claims there was no violence from protesters on her ship, and at least 3 dead.
From the report:
Why am I not surprised…?
From the report:
Why am I not surprised…?
Well I’m pitching in too Sam. I also find the term offensive, when used in that way. As always, YMMV … but I can’t begin to imagine how anyone who claimed to respect women would choose this as their preferred term of abuse.
Perhaps you can enlighten us … or apologise and move on.
Well I’m pitching in too Sam. I also find the term offensive, when used in that way. As always, YMMV … but I can’t begin to imagine how anyone who claimed to respect women would choose this as their preferred term of abuse.
Perhaps you can enlighten us … or apologise and move on.
I’m with Fran on this, Sam. Say fuck or shit as much as you like, but that particular term used as abuse is misogynist in origin and is not welcome.
ETA: Of course, writing a poem about the delights of cunts would be entirely welcome on a thread where it was on topic.
I’m with Fran on this, Sam. Say fuck or shit as much as you like, but that particular term used as abuse is misogynist in origin and is not welcome.
ETA: Of course, writing a poem about the delights of cunts would be entirely welcome on a thread where it was on topic.
Fram Barlow, the moderator allowed it, why not take it up with LP?
In this incident the terminolgy would indeed have much justification as to its use in the conventional sense, to describe Netayahu and his cowardly minions.
But I agree with FBD, it (the fanny) is too noble an entity to be used descriptively as a comparison base for something as ugly and useless as Netanyahoo.
Fran, given your intelligence, isn’t it surely the likes of SATB, that you would prefer to “move on”?
Fram Barlow, the moderator allowed it, why not take it up with LP?
In this incident the terminolgy would indeed have much justification as to its use in the conventional sense, to describe Netayahu and his cowardly minions.
But I agree with FBD, it (the fanny) is too noble an entity to be used descriptively as a comparison base for something as ugly and useless as Netanyahoo.
Fran, given your intelligence, isn’t it surely the likes of SATB, that you would prefer to “move on”?
OT, but yeah, not really appropriate, Sam.
OT, but yeah, not really appropriate, Sam.
@Paul Walter,
The moderator has since redacted the word in question, Paul.
@Paul Walter,
The moderator has since redacted the word in question, Paul.
Tssk, you touch something important here, and something that explains my own profound cynicism. They are all bastards. There are no good guys at all. There is nothing but godbotherers, lies and hate. It does not matter if the godbotherers are mn grbbng Jws, prt f th Jbss spctrm frm brn-dd hpp clpprs t wt-yd chld mlstrs, r cltrs-hckng, g-hngng fllwrs f sm lng dd pdphl [broad brush negative characterisations disemvoweled by moderator - keep it down to a dull roar].
Show me one place in the whole middle east where anything progressive could occur. There isn’t one anywhere. Everything there is built of lies and hate. And the media and most western governments, even the progressive ones, still swallow one set of lies of the other, and insist that this lot or that lot are the good guys. It’s a sick joke.
Here’s what is going to happen sooner or later. The lies and the hate will explode in everyone’s faces. Nothing can stop it, reality will expose it all, probably in a major war (and soon), probably it will go nuclear, if not this war, then the next one. That is better done sooner than later, just to keep the number of nukes set off as low as possible. No system based on lies and hate among squabbling godbotherers can be maintained. That is the only reason anyone should care about what the Jews or the Islamists did to each other on that peace flotilla – it shows us how far the rot has gone. The entire area and all its political systems are rotten to the core, and our media and politicians are too. Years ago, before we all turned the lies and BS into the basis of perceived reality, something might have been done. It’s all decades too late now. It is not what we don’t know from some video that will hurt us. That’s just a joke. It is what we know is NOT so that will drive the whole situation into the furnace.
There is nothing people like us can do but watch, and try to learn a few lessons from it. Because nothing can stop the worst possible outcome.
The Zionists just admitted having nuclear-armed subs on patrol to wipe out Iran. The mad mullahs just hinted that they already have enough for two nukes (and what additional has Pyongyang sold them?).
So what does it matter if people think that the Palestinians are ‘good guys’, or someone else is a ‘good guy’?. None of them are. And there is nothing anyone can do about it.
LTL
Tssk, you touch something important here, and something that explains my own profound cynicism. They are all bastards. There are no good guys at all. There is nothing but godbotherers, lies and hate. It does not matter if the godbotherers are mn grbbng Jws, prt f th Jbss spctrm frm brn-dd hpp clpprs t wt-yd chld mlstrs, r cltrs-hckng, g-hngng fllwrs f sm lng dd pdphl [broad brush negative characterisations disemvoweled by moderator - keep it down to a dull roar].
Show me one place in the whole middle east where anything progressive could occur. There isn’t one anywhere. Everything there is built of lies and hate. And the media and most western governments, even the progressive ones, still swallow one set of lies of the other, and insist that this lot or that lot are the good guys. It’s a sick joke.
Here’s what is going to happen sooner or later. The lies and the hate will explode in everyone’s faces. Nothing can stop it, reality will expose it all, probably in a major war (and soon), probably it will go nuclear, if not this war, then the next one. That is better done sooner than later, just to keep the number of nukes set off as low as possible. No system based on lies and hate among squabbling godbotherers can be maintained. That is the only reason anyone should care about what the Jews or the Islamists did to each other on that peace flotilla – it shows us how far the rot has gone. The entire area and all its political systems are rotten to the core, and our media and politicians are too. Years ago, before we all turned the lies and BS into the basis of perceived reality, something might have been done. It’s all decades too late now. It is not what we don’t know from some video that will hurt us. That’s just a joke. It is what we know is NOT so that will drive the whole situation into the furnace.
There is nothing people like us can do but watch, and try to learn a few lessons from it. Because nothing can stop the worst possible outcome.
The Zionists just admitted having nuclear-armed subs on patrol to wipe out Iran. The mad mullahs just hinted that they already have enough for two nukes (and what additional has Pyongyang sold them?).
So what does it matter if people think that the Palestinians are ‘good guys’, or someone else is a ‘good guy’?. None of them are. And there is nothing anyone can do about it.
LTL
Well, sisters, the word is, for better or for worse, the gravest insult in the English language, which was kind of the point. The fact that it is misogynist in origin is to me neither here nor there, notwithstanding that I respect women in general, though not all of them. YMMV indeed.
However, since I don’t like to offend people in their own home, as it were, unless I really want to, to you tigtog, I apologise.
Well, sisters, the word is, for better or for worse, the gravest insult in the English language, which was kind of the point. The fact that it is misogynist in origin is to me neither here nor there, notwithstanding that I respect women in general, though not all of them. YMMV indeed.
However, since I don’t like to offend people in their own home, as it were, unless I really want to, to you tigtog, I apologise.
A part of the female anatomy is the “gravest insult in the english language” – but that’s neither here nor there to you?
Wow.
A part of the female anatomy is the “gravest insult in the english language” – but that’s neither here nor there to you?
Wow.
Clarification, Sam: the word itself is not misogynist. Using it as a term of abuse/insult is the misogynist act.
That misogyny is traditionally considered an acceptable way for men to demean other men as not-real-men, based on women being assumed to be the utterly contemptible Other, is basically the raison d’etre of the feminist movement, so appealing to tradition for justification isn’t a particularly compelling rebuttal.
Thank you for the apology, however.
Clarification, Sam: the word itself is not misogynist. Using it as a term of abuse/insult is the misogynist act.
That misogyny is traditionally considered an acceptable way for men to demean other men as not-real-men, based on women being assumed to be the utterly contemptible Other, is basically the raison d’etre of the feminist movement, so appealing to tradition for justification isn’t a particularly compelling rebuttal.
Thank you for the apology, however.
Robert: I’d say you have to have the specific intent of killing a number of people for trained soldiers to produce that many deaths, from the preceding situation we see on video. Since when is ‘revenge’ a reason to use lethal force, up to 19 times?
I note that Egypt is opening the southern border to gaza. This has been a monumental disaster for the Israelis – who are clearly run by people who are losing the plot, big time.
My real concern is this: Forget Iran. Can the world afford to have the Israeli govt in possession of nuclear weapons?
Robert: I’d say you have to have the specific intent of killing a number of people for trained soldiers to produce that many deaths, from the preceding situation we see on video. Since when is ‘revenge’ a reason to use lethal force, up to 19 times?
I note that Egypt is opening the southern border to gaza. This has been a monumental disaster for the Israelis – who are clearly run by people who are losing the plot, big time.
My real concern is this: Forget Iran. Can the world afford to have the Israeli govt in possession of nuclear weapons?
We seem to be getting off thread.
Namely, two things, firstly is the any final clarification as to how many people died and secondly, are others perturbed by coverage on teev newspapers concerning the flotilla incident? Virtually all headlines from the Age online seem to have been obscured.
By what right of law are people like Paul McGeough kept under detention by the Israelis?
We seem to be getting off thread.
Namely, two things, firstly is the any final clarification as to how many people died and secondly, are others perturbed by coverage on teev newspapers concerning the flotilla incident? Virtually all headlines from the Age online seem to have been obscured.
By what right of law are people like Paul McGeough kept under detention by the Israelis?
Scott upthread – “Even liberal Jews must be embarrassed by this incident.”
What do you mean “even”? I’m willing to guess there are more Jews [liberals, orthodox, conservatives] outraged by this incident than there are blogging Aussies.
If my [very Jewish] father was alive, I imagine he would be shouting at the TV, in much the same way he was when he was expressing his disgust when bombs were falling on Baghdad when Clinton ordered strikes in the 90′s.
Most people, regardless of their ethnicity, don’t like seeing people senselessly killed.
Scott upthread – “Even liberal Jews must be embarrassed by this incident.”
What do you mean “even”? I’m willing to guess there are more Jews [liberals, orthodox, conservatives] outraged by this incident than there are blogging Aussies.
If my [very Jewish] father was alive, I imagine he would be shouting at the TV, in much the same way he was when he was expressing his disgust when bombs were falling on Baghdad when Clinton ordered strikes in the 90′s.
Most people, regardless of their ethnicity, don’t like seeing people senselessly killed.
When is Rudd going to get off his arse and get Mcgeough and his photographer out, or at least in a position where they can tell us what they saw. Presumably they’re still in prison because they refused to hand over tapes, notes and photographs that the Israelis don’t want the world to know about.
When is Rudd going to get off his arse and get Mcgeough and his photographer out, or at least in a position where they can tell us what they saw. Presumably they’re still in prison because they refused to hand over tapes, notes and photographs that the Israelis don’t want the world to know about.
I make the mild suggestion that this thread suffers from (a) uninformed speculation and (b) over-analysis of unreliable data, resulting in (c) pointless argument.
I make the mild suggestion that this thread suffers from (a) uninformed speculation and (b) over-analysis of unreliable data, resulting in (c) pointless argument.
The Israelis boarded a ship in international waters and killed some of the occupants. How is this not piracy??? Skitch ‘em, Kevin!!!
The Israelis boarded a ship in international waters and killed some of the occupants. How is this not piracy??? Skitch ‘em, Kevin!!!
Well, Ken Lovell, if speculation is “uninformed”, what does this say about the (disgustingly pro Israel) establishment,government, media and press in the West?
Where are the clarion calls of outrage from the likes of Obama and Rudd?
For my part, I’d reiterate Agnes’
comment, #171.
“The Israelis boarded a ship in international waters and killed some occupants.
How is this not piracy???”.
Worse than piracy actually. At least pirates commit their atrocities for a reason (loot).
What excuse, for that bloody handed serial mongrel, Netanyahu?
Well, Ken Lovell, if speculation is “uninformed”, what does this say about the (disgustingly pro Israel) establishment,government, media and press in the West?
Where are the clarion calls of outrage from the likes of Obama and Rudd?
For my part, I’d reiterate Agnes’
comment, #171.
“The Israelis boarded a ship in international waters and killed some occupants.
How is this not piracy???”.
Worse than piracy actually. At least pirates commit their atrocities for a reason (loot).
What excuse, for that bloody handed serial mongrel, Netanyahu?
“It feels like years
That all I’ve done is fought.
And not
Turned up
Anything.”
– Sonic Youth, “Rain King”
…or maybe it’s “thought”? “fought”? With these ME folks who can even tell any more…?
“Hung up on a speed-king nation,
Caught up on a nail…
Out here in this whirlpool world,
Dreaming of the pitchfork kiss…”
– same
Ugh.
“It feels like years
That all I’ve done is fought.
And not
Turned up
Anything.”
– Sonic Youth, “Rain King”
…or maybe it’s “thought”? “fought”? With these ME folks who can even tell any more…?
“Hung up on a speed-king nation,
Caught up on a nail…
Out here in this whirlpool world,
Dreaming of the pitchfork kiss…”
– same
Ugh.
btw, agree (mostly) w/ Ken Lovell @ #170.
First time for everything. 8-D
btw, agree (mostly) w/ Ken Lovell @ #170.
First time for everything. 8-D
by “8-D” I mean
(hope it works this time)
by “8-D” I mean
(hope it works this time)
I’m not offended by Sam’s use of ‘cunt’, just mildly contemptuous.
Paul B, as I understand the way it’s being reported in the SMH, McGeough and Geraghty could have chosen to be deported immediately but are still in prison because they’ve said they don’t want to leave, and have appealed to the Israeli government to allow them to continue to do their jobs. Again as I understand it, the Australian Embassy is looking after Geraghty and the Irish after McGeough, who is travelling on an Irish passport.
My personal military adviser’s view of the incident: ‘If you board someone else’s boat and attack them in international waters, that makes you a pirate. Either you’re a pirate or you’re starting a war.’
I’m not offended by Sam’s use of ‘cunt’, just mildly contemptuous.
Paul B, as I understand the way it’s being reported in the SMH, McGeough and Geraghty could have chosen to be deported immediately but are still in prison because they’ve said they don’t want to leave, and have appealed to the Israeli government to allow them to continue to do their jobs. Again as I understand it, the Australian Embassy is looking after Geraghty and the Irish after McGeough, who is travelling on an Irish passport.
My personal military adviser’s view of the incident: ‘If you board someone else’s boat and attack them in international waters, that makes you a pirate. Either you’re a pirate or you’re starting a war.’
Do not buy any product with the barcode prefix 729. These are products of Israel.
Do not buy any product with the barcode prefix 729. These are products of Israel.
It is quite clear that the Freedom Flotilla has modelled its methods and objectives on the Freedom Rides of 1964 by northern college students to the segregationist south.
In both cases the ostensible purpose of the campaign — encouraging Afro-Americans to register to vote and brining aid to Gazans — is subsidiary to the overarching purpose — to give the media a set of events that allow or encourage opinion-shapers to publicise the oppressive and violent nature of the authorities — Southern authorities and the Israeli regime.
There is nothing objectionable about these objectives. And they succeeded brilliantly. A few white minds were changed in the South. but more importantly, Congress was finally shamed into interceding into race relations in the South.
Unless the US threatens to turn off aid and support to Israel, the consequences for Israel will be less direct. However, even if the US remains stubborn, Israel’s diplomatic and perhaps trade position in the world will be so damaged by its atrocious actions, the Israel regime will have to make concessions.
Meanwhile, it appears that the Freedom Flotilla has inspired imitators. The pressure on Israel can only grow.
And the cruising season has hardly begun in the Mediterranean.
It is quite clear that the Freedom Flotilla has modelled its methods and objectives on the Freedom Rides of 1964 by northern college students to the segregationist south.
In both cases the ostensible purpose of the campaign — encouraging Afro-Americans to register to vote and brining aid to Gazans — is subsidiary to the overarching purpose — to give the media a set of events that allow or encourage opinion-shapers to publicise the oppressive and violent nature of the authorities — Southern authorities and the Israeli regime.
There is nothing objectionable about these objectives. And they succeeded brilliantly. A few white minds were changed in the South. but more importantly, Congress was finally shamed into interceding into race relations in the South.
Unless the US threatens to turn off aid and support to Israel, the consequences for Israel will be less direct. However, even if the US remains stubborn, Israel’s diplomatic and perhaps trade position in the world will be so damaged by its atrocious actions, the Israel regime will have to make concessions.
Meanwhile, it appears that the Freedom Flotilla has inspired imitators. The pressure on Israel can only grow.
And the cruising season has hardly begun in the Mediterranean.
LTL….their children don’t deserve to die in nuclear fire. I refuse to believe everyone in that area is just bad. It’s too simplistic and very convenient.
LTL….their children don’t deserve to die in nuclear fire. I refuse to believe everyone in that area is just bad. It’s too simplistic and very convenient.
Isn’t Israel in receipt of aid in part so the US can have a strategic toehold in the ME? Would the US ever relinquish that to any significant degree?
Isn’t Israel in receipt of aid in part so the US can have a strategic toehold in the ME? Would the US ever relinquish that to any significant degree?
@PC, I’m more contemptuous of the attempted justification than of the initial usage.
LTL, another spray of polemic like that sentence which I just disemvoweled in your last comment will see you placed in permanent moderation. Make your your points without such heated invective.
tssk is correct that writing off the whole region as just “bad” and unworthy of our compassion or attempts to prevent escalation of hostilities is too simplistic and convenient. I’ll add abhorrent to that list.
@PC, I’m more contemptuous of the attempted justification than of the initial usage.
LTL, another spray of polemic like that sentence which I just disemvoweled in your last comment will see you placed in permanent moderation. Make your your points without such heated invective.
tssk is correct that writing off the whole region as just “bad” and unworthy of our compassion or attempts to prevent escalation of hostilities is too simplistic and convenient. I’ll add abhorrent to that list.
@su, the US seems to have been fostering stronger relations with Turkey as a back-up plan for ME influence for quite a few decades now. I suspect they would like to continue to have feet in both camps for as long as possible, because that way they can play off special interest groups in both countries against each other for their own purposes.
@su, the US seems to have been fostering stronger relations with Turkey as a back-up plan for ME influence for quite a few decades now. I suspect they would like to continue to have feet in both camps for as long as possible, because that way they can play off special interest groups in both countries against each other for their own purposes.
According to this http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/israel-investigation-attack-gaza-flotilla-us an investigation is going to be run by an impartial party.
Impartial. Yeah. We’ve entered into the twilight zone now.
According to this http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/israel-investigation-attack-gaza-flotilla-us an investigation is going to be run by an impartial party.
Impartial. Yeah. We’ve entered into the twilight zone now.
My understanding is that McGeough and Geraghty would need to sign a document saying they had attempted to illegally enter Israel, in order to be deported and they aren’t prepared to do so.
My understanding is that McGeough and Geraghty would need to sign a document saying they had attempted to illegally enter Israel, in order to be deported and they aren’t prepared to do so.
31 May 2010: An American solidarity activist was shot in the face with a tear gas canister during a demonstration in Qalandiya, today. Emily Henochowicz is currently in Hadassah Hospital in Jerusalem undergoing surgery to remove her left eye, following the demonstration that was held in protest to Israel’s murder of at least 10 civilians aboard the Gaza Freedom Flotilla in international waters this morning.
31 May 2010: An American solidarity activist was shot in the face with a tear gas canister during a demonstration in Qalandiya, today. Emily Henochowicz is currently in Hadassah Hospital in Jerusalem undergoing surgery to remove her left eye, following the demonstration that was held in protest to Israel’s murder of at least 10 civilians aboard the Gaza Freedom Flotilla in international waters this morning.
As I have posted before Israel doesn’t want peace on any but it’s own terms.. it want’s Palestine. Reports from Gaza indicate that the youth when asked what they wish for is a)to be elsewhere or b)to be dead. With infants starving re the illegal blockade and no hope of any Israeli government of any persuasion allowing Palestinians to exist in freedom the whole “Palestine for a Jewish state” Zionist exercise is and always has been an abomination.
As I have posted before Israel doesn’t want peace on any but it’s own terms.. it want’s Palestine. Reports from Gaza indicate that the youth when asked what they wish for is a)to be elsewhere or b)to be dead. With infants starving re the illegal blockade and no hope of any Israeli government of any persuasion allowing Palestinians to exist in freedom the whole “Palestine for a Jewish state” Zionist exercise is and always has been an abomination.
“McGeough and Geraghty would need to sign a document saying they had attempted to illegally enter Israel”
Gaza is in Israel now?
“McGeough and Geraghty would need to sign a document saying they had attempted to illegally enter Israel”
Gaza is in Israel now?
A report in today’s Age with an unintentionally humorous headline.
A report in today’s Age with an unintentionally humorous headline.
Well of course Israel, because they have nothing to hide, have refused all inquiries except those run by itself. Australia may have been ahead of even the U.S. in accepting this nonsensical bullshit.
It is an object lesson in spin, that might have been better on another thread, how Israel has managed to come in, guide the discussion and our gullible media lap it all up.
They have presented their side of the story with selected video and possibly dodgy fatality numbers and put out of action pretty much all the observers on the flotilla boats by arresting them where possible. The other side of the story has been cleverly put on the drip.
Well of course Israel, because they have nothing to hide, have refused all inquiries except those run by itself. Australia may have been ahead of even the U.S. in accepting this nonsensical bullshit.
It is an object lesson in spin, that might have been better on another thread, how Israel has managed to come in, guide the discussion and our gullible media lap it all up.
They have presented their side of the story with selected video and possibly dodgy fatality numbers and put out of action pretty much all the observers on the flotilla boats by arresting them where possible. The other side of the story has been cleverly put on the drip.
The story being told by the first of the released prisoners is markedly different to the bukshit being meted out by the Israelis. Surprise, surprise.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7142197.ece
The story being told by the first of the released prisoners is markedly different to the bukshit being meted out by the Israelis. Surprise, surprise.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7142197.ece
One of the vessels in the flotilla was named MV Rachel Corrie after the American peace activist who was killed by an IDF armoured bulldozer in 2003. We don’t know the full story of the events on board those ships as yet but it seems appropriate to me to at least honour the intentions of the dead activists at this point.
Peace.
One of the vessels in the flotilla was named MV Rachel Corrie after the American peace activist who was killed by an IDF armoured bulldozer in 2003. We don’t know the full story of the events on board those ships as yet but it seems appropriate to me to at least honour the intentions of the dead activists at this point.
Peace.
McGeough and Geraghty would be better to just sign.
Israel will be happy to play games with them so that their story does not see the light of day till it is relegated to page 6 of the paper in two weeks time.
McGeough and Geraghty would be better to just sign.
Israel will be happy to play games with them so that their story does not see the light of day till it is relegated to page 6 of the paper in two weeks time.
Paul 188, don’t joke about stuff like that.
Paul 188, don’t joke about stuff like that.
Prahran will be free, from the Yarra to the sea?
Prahran will be free, from the Yarra to the sea?
Caulfield will be, in any case.
Caulfield will be, in any case.
The Hun reports 3000 at the snap rally called to condemn Israel’s attack on the aid convoy in Melbourne last night!
Word is that another rally has been called in Melbourne for 2pm at the State Library.
The Hun reports 3000 at the snap rally called to condemn Israel’s attack on the aid convoy in Melbourne last night!
Word is that another rally has been called in Melbourne for 2pm at the State Library.
SATP appears to be trying to make the argument that the IDF was justified in killing civilians because of the consequences of their (the IDFs) actions. I find that rather immoral, to provoke a person into attacking you so you can kill them would seem to be a very uncivilised way to behave.
Fundamentally SATP is advocating a complete suspension of the rule of law. In fact there’s a bit of resonance with Bishop’s advocating the stealing of peoples’ identities which also accepts, rather submissively, that the rule of law can be dispensed with when it is deemed necessary and without consultation. What a funny world conservatives live in.
SATP appears to be trying to make the argument that the IDF was justified in killing civilians because of the consequences of their (the IDFs) actions. I find that rather immoral, to provoke a person into attacking you so you can kill them would seem to be a very uncivilised way to behave.
Fundamentally SATP is advocating a complete suspension of the rule of law. In fact there’s a bit of resonance with Bishop’s advocating the stealing of peoples’ identities which also accepts, rather submissively, that the rule of law can be dispensed with when it is deemed necessary and without consultation. What a funny world conservatives live in.
SATP is not a real person. He is a character created for the purpose of stirring on a blog.
SATP is not a real person. He is a character created for the purpose of stirring on a blog.
The implicit mysogyny in the use of the term in that way tigtog is very clear. Along with otherwise comparable epithets [dickead, prick, arsehole] such terminology valorises and trades upon long standing sexual taboos attached to genitalia, and prescriptive visions of the masculine and/or feminine.
People are entitled to their views but it’s hard to see how a thoughtful or avowedly socially inclusive person could justify such resort.
Moreover, when I am scandalised by the conduct of another, mere generic labelling seems empty and pointless. It can’t communicate what I want to express — specifically the naure of my objections to the conduct in question. When I see Netanyahu, I want to speak of the part he plays in subverting global human well-being, augmenting misery and the etiology of these acts rather than compare him to something quite a few men feel at once titillated and confronted by.
The implicit mysogyny in the use of the term in that way tigtog is very clear. Along with otherwise comparable epithets [dickead, prick, arsehole] such terminology valorises and trades upon long standing sexual taboos attached to genitalia, and prescriptive visions of the masculine and/or feminine.
People are entitled to their views but it’s hard to see how a thoughtful or avowedly socially inclusive person could justify such resort.
Moreover, when I am scandalised by the conduct of another, mere generic labelling seems empty and pointless. It can’t communicate what I want to express — specifically the naure of my objections to the conduct in question. When I see Netanyahu, I want to speak of the part he plays in subverting global human well-being, augmenting misery and the etiology of these acts rather than compare him to something quite a few men feel at once titillated and confronted by.
patrickb, it’s an interesting point and I believe (although I might be wrong, lawyers anyone) that the defence of provocation in Australian law was either modified or dropped because it was being misused. (We’ve all been there, sitting quieting at a pub when suddenly challenged by some chancer “You looking at me? You looking at me?” The idea being that someone can beat up anyone with legal impunity so long as they can argue that they were provoked.)
patrickb, it’s an interesting point and I believe (although I might be wrong, lawyers anyone) that the defence of provocation in Australian law was either modified or dropped because it was being misused. (We’ve all been there, sitting quieting at a pub when suddenly challenged by some chancer “You looking at me? You looking at me?” The idea being that someone can beat up anyone with legal impunity so long as they can argue that they were provoked.)
Great to see the LP crowd get on their bikes over this Israeli atrocity. With the exception of Steve (who is like a worm in an apple), I tips me hat to you all!
Great to see the LP crowd get on their bikes over this Israeli atrocity. With the exception of Steve (who is like a worm in an apple), I tips me hat to you all!
Agree Katz – the analogy with the Freedom rides is a good one. I expect they’ll continue. I also expect they will ultimately succeed – the blockade of Gaza is completely illegitimate and cant be allowed to stand unchallenged.
Agree Katz – the analogy with the Freedom rides is a good one. I expect they’ll continue. I also expect they will ultimately succeed – the blockade of Gaza is completely illegitimate and cant be allowed to stand unchallenged.
I still don’t understand. Why didn’t they wait until they were out of international waters? They could have just sunk the ships one by one with torpedoes if they wanted to and no-one would have blinked. To do it in international waters just doesn’t make sense.
I still don’t understand. Why didn’t they wait until they were out of international waters? They could have just sunk the ships one by one with torpedoes if they wanted to and no-one would have blinked. To do it in international waters just doesn’t make sense.
They do it because they can, because it’s virtually telling the rest of the world to get stuffed, we will do whatever we like, spin furiously, and there isn’t anything that our enemies can do about it.
The key is of course the US, but don’t hold your breath.
What is actually needed is hundreds of thousands to join these conveys until eventually the sheer weight of numbers forces Israel to listen to reason. How many here would be willing to do such a thing, though?
They do it because they can, because it’s virtually telling the rest of the world to get stuffed, we will do whatever we like, spin furiously, and there isn’t anything that our enemies can do about it.
The key is of course the US, but don’t hold your breath.
What is actually needed is hundreds of thousands to join these conveys until eventually the sheer weight of numbers forces Israel to listen to reason. How many here would be willing to do such a thing, though?
You’re right there. But that’s a discussion for another thread.
You’re right there. But that’s a discussion for another thread.
Katz @178 and Lefty E @202, there is an interesting question which arises, about where people finally decide to draw the line.
Abraham Rabinovich in The Australian today seems to be arguing that because Israel has been allowed to continue in the past, they will be allowed again, despite public outrage in each case.
“As messy as the operation was, however, in the long run, and perhaps even the not-so-long run, the incident may reinforce Israel’s deterrent image, a keystone of its security structure. Israel made clear that it would enforce its declared policies – in this case regarding Gaza – regardless of the price it had to pay in the form of international goodwill.
There is much similarity with Israel’s war with Hezbollah in Lebanon four years ago and its incursion into Gaza to fight Hamas last year, both operations being roundly condemned by the international community.”
He continues in this vein, arguing that the Israeli actions were appropriate in every case.
What happens if the majority of people internationally decide they have finally gone too far?
Meanwhile the Israeli leadership continues to think they will have tacit approval from those that matter, and keep pushing their luck with “friends” as well as “enemies”.
Who would help a pariah state in a crisis? What if Israel is threatened in future? The US and EU are virtually broke (sovereign debt being a dominant topic now), and can hardly afford another major conflict. And their citizens may not support that particular use of their resources (another open-ended ME war)?
Could Israel’s recent actions ultimately be the seeds of their own misery?
Katz @178 and Lefty E @202, there is an interesting question which arises, about where people finally decide to draw the line.
Abraham Rabinovich in The Australian today seems to be arguing that because Israel has been allowed to continue in the past, they will be allowed again, despite public outrage in each case.
“As messy as the operation was, however, in the long run, and perhaps even the not-so-long run, the incident may reinforce Israel’s deterrent image, a keystone of its security structure. Israel made clear that it would enforce its declared policies – in this case regarding Gaza – regardless of the price it had to pay in the form of international goodwill.
There is much similarity with Israel’s war with Hezbollah in Lebanon four years ago and its incursion into Gaza to fight Hamas last year, both operations being roundly condemned by the international community.”
He continues in this vein, arguing that the Israeli actions were appropriate in every case.
What happens if the majority of people internationally decide they have finally gone too far?
Meanwhile the Israeli leadership continues to think they will have tacit approval from those that matter, and keep pushing their luck with “friends” as well as “enemies”.
Who would help a pariah state in a crisis? What if Israel is threatened in future? The US and EU are virtually broke (sovereign debt being a dominant topic now), and can hardly afford another major conflict. And their citizens may not support that particular use of their resources (another open-ended ME war)?
Could Israel’s recent actions ultimately be the seeds of their own misery?
“How many here would be willing to do such a thing, though?”
I think its clear from previous episodes (eg tractors in Gaza) that Israel has an unofficial poicy of killing protestors, to discourage international solidarity.
Indeed, I strongly suspect suspect that was the true motivation behind the massacre the other day: Pour encourager les autres.
“How many here would be willing to do such a thing, though?”
I think its clear from previous episodes (eg tractors in Gaza) that Israel has an unofficial poicy of killing protestors, to discourage international solidarity.
Indeed, I strongly suspect suspect that was the true motivation behind the massacre the other day: Pour encourager les autres.
Interesting coincidence, Lefty. Voltaire was talking about Admiral Byng, who was executed by Royal Marines on the quarterdeck.
Interesting coincidence, Lefty. Voltaire was talking about Admiral Byng, who was executed by Royal Marines on the quarterdeck.
Nice points, Elise.
You don’t need a majority. All you need is a committed vanguard of people willing and able to crew those boats. It is politically and logistically very expensive for the Israeli Right Wing regime to continue to interdict those boats in the face of mounting international disapprobation. Eventually, the Israeli regime will have to concede. The questions are what, when and how?
Rabinovich of the Murdochosphere is blowing smoke. He is either a willing shill of the Right Wing Israeli regime or he is an idiot who knows no history, or both.
Nice points, Elise.
You don’t need a majority. All you need is a committed vanguard of people willing and able to crew those boats. It is politically and logistically very expensive for the Israeli Right Wing regime to continue to interdict those boats in the face of mounting international disapprobation. Eventually, the Israeli regime will have to concede. The questions are what, when and how?
Rabinovich of the Murdochosphere is blowing smoke. He is either a willing shill of the Right Wing Israeli regime or he is an idiot who knows no history, or both.
Israel’s defenders are sadly reminiscent of old-style Communists: yes errors may have been made in the socialist bloc but these have to be seen in the context of the global anti-Communist offensive and the constant provocations of the imperialist war mongers.We have to understand the difficult and complex decisions that the heroic and disciplined security forces of the socialist state have to make every day, the Berlin wall has to be seen in the bigger picture of the continued activity of the ex-Nazi and revanchist forces in the federal republic etc. Or Green Left Weekly on Cuba!
Israel’s defenders are sadly reminiscent of old-style Communists: yes errors may have been made in the socialist bloc but these have to be seen in the context of the global anti-Communist offensive and the constant provocations of the imperialist war mongers.We have to understand the difficult and complex decisions that the heroic and disciplined security forces of the socialist state have to make every day, the Berlin wall has to be seen in the bigger picture of the continued activity of the ex-Nazi and revanchist forces in the federal republic etc. Or Green Left Weekly on Cuba!
if that doesn’t get a thread derail nothing will!
if that doesn’t get a thread derail nothing will!
Geoff, I’d call it the Stupid Cult of Israel.
Geoff, I’d call it the Stupid Cult of Israel.
And naturally all mistakes and excesses are deviations from the objectively true historical mission of the nation, Paul and Geoff.
And naturally all mistakes and excesses are deviations from the objectively true historical mission of the nation, Paul and Geoff.
PROTEST THE BLOCKADE OF GAZA!
Saturday, June 5, 2010
2:00pm
State Library
Melbourne
In response to Israel’s cold-blooded massacre of up to 19 human rights volunteers delivering much needed aid to Gaza, pro-Palestinian activists have taken to the streets all around the world, including thousands in New York, Stockholm and London and across the Middle East; deploring Israel’s utter disregard for human life and international law and calling on their governments to act.
On Tuesday the 1st of June 1,500 people right here in Melbourne joined this international movement, from groups such as the Maritime Union of Australia, Students for Palestine, FAMSY and the Palestine Solidarity Campaign, and many others.
Following the rally, a coalition of these groups united under the banner of the Free Gaza Movement have decided that further action is needed, so a demonstration will be happening SATURDAY JUNE 5 2PM, at the STATE LIBRARY.
Now, more than ever, it is imperative that we will not be silent. In the face of Israel’s deadly raid on innocent, unarmed civilians trying to lift the siege that drives the Palestinian people into dire poverty, WE NEED TO ACT!
PROTEST THE BLOCKADE OF GAZA!
Saturday, June 5, 2010
2:00pm
State Library
Melbourne
In response to Israel’s cold-blooded massacre of up to 19 human rights volunteers delivering much needed aid to Gaza, pro-Palestinian activists have taken to the streets all around the world, including thousands in New York, Stockholm and London and across the Middle East; deploring Israel’s utter disregard for human life and international law and calling on their governments to act.
On Tuesday the 1st of June 1,500 people right here in Melbourne joined this international movement, from groups such as the Maritime Union of Australia, Students for Palestine, FAMSY and the Palestine Solidarity Campaign, and many others.
Following the rally, a coalition of these groups united under the banner of the Free Gaza Movement have decided that further action is needed, so a demonstration will be happening SATURDAY JUNE 5 2PM, at the STATE LIBRARY.
Now, more than ever, it is imperative that we will not be silent. In the face of Israel’s deadly raid on innocent, unarmed civilians trying to lift the siege that drives the Palestinian people into dire poverty, WE NEED TO ACT!
While the following by no means describes all – or even a majority – of pro-Israel sentiment in the West, I firmly believe it does describe one very important subset: “Supporting Israel” has in some quarters become the perfect haven for a set of people whose world view was always essentially racist, remains essentially racist, but who now wish to avoid the horrific stain that Nazism cast over that whole worldview.
The irony is the very same milieu in the West (primarily, a sub-section of conservatives) was once the bastion of anti-Semitism.
The Israelis know it too – that’s one reason why they’re happy to constantly make asses of their allies in the West.
While the following by no means describes all – or even a majority – of pro-Israel sentiment in the West, I firmly believe it does describe one very important subset: “Supporting Israel” has in some quarters become the perfect haven for a set of people whose world view was always essentially racist, remains essentially racist, but who now wish to avoid the horrific stain that Nazism cast over that whole worldview.
The irony is the very same milieu in the West (primarily, a sub-section of conservatives) was once the bastion of anti-Semitism.
The Israelis know it too – that’s one reason why they’re happy to constantly make asses of their allies in the West.
I’m struck by why this fatal incident wasn’t foreseen. This convoy was well publicised in the weeks/days leading up to ‘D Day’ with even the delays offering extra scope for some realistic assessment. And this was a convoy of ships following previous singular efforts to test the Israeli blockade. The range and size of the passenger list suggested they would not be easily fobbed off.
From the Israeli side we had the past history of IDF boardings and the categoric statements that this latest convoy would also not succeed.
So where were the political leaders calling for moderation, reminding Tel Aviv that this needed a peaceful response, that the Gaza blockade needed a resolution if more convoys were to be avoided, that the Israeli offer to offload the humanitarian cargo at Ashkod was insuffficient.
Rudd’s been on the blower to BN since but surely this ex-diplomat knows he is far too late. He had the perfect opportunity to warn just days before when expelling the local Mossad agent over passport fraud. It might have even got him a poll boost darn it!
I’m struck by why this fatal incident wasn’t foreseen. This convoy was well publicised in the weeks/days leading up to ‘D Day’ with even the delays offering extra scope for some realistic assessment. And this was a convoy of ships following previous singular efforts to test the Israeli blockade. The range and size of the passenger list suggested they would not be easily fobbed off.
From the Israeli side we had the past history of IDF boardings and the categoric statements that this latest convoy would also not succeed.
So where were the political leaders calling for moderation, reminding Tel Aviv that this needed a peaceful response, that the Gaza blockade needed a resolution if more convoys were to be avoided, that the Israeli offer to offload the humanitarian cargo at Ashkod was insuffficient.
Rudd’s been on the blower to BN since but surely this ex-diplomat knows he is far too late. He had the perfect opportunity to warn just days before when expelling the local Mossad agent over passport fraud. It might have even got him a poll boost darn it!
GR @ 219m
Reminds me mpre of thew Warsaw Ghetto, only this time thew Palesatinians arte inside the Ghetto and the Israelis are …. Ah, no, it couldn’t be. The Israelis would never behave like that after what was done to them, would they?
GR @ 219m
Reminds me mpre of thew Warsaw Ghetto, only this time thew Palesatinians arte inside the Ghetto and the Israelis are …. Ah, no, it couldn’t be. The Israelis would never behave like that after what was done to them, would they?
Left E, a good point. It’s amazing that a subset of those people used to argue that the Holocaust didn’t happen. It’s somewhat similar to how some anti-feminists have suddenly turned around over the issue of head veils (but hey, only for Muslims, Catholic nuns are a-ok.)
I’m fine with the left being the whipping boy in this debate as there is an odd side effect (on the surface) of dragging these people to the left at least on some issues.
Left E, a good point. It’s amazing that a subset of those people used to argue that the Holocaust didn’t happen. It’s somewhat similar to how some anti-feminists have suddenly turned around over the issue of head veils (but hey, only for Muslims, Catholic nuns are a-ok.)
I’m fine with the left being the whipping boy in this debate as there is an odd side effect (on the surface) of dragging these people to the left at least on some issues.
Lefty E…hence the English Defence League bootboys carrying the Star of David flag on their forays into Muslim neighbourhoods in Britain.
Lefty E…hence the English Defence League bootboys carrying the Star of David flag on their forays into Muslim neighbourhoods in Britain.
from Anthony Lowenstein’s site: Israeili writer Amos Oz fears “Israel is turning into Apartheid-era South Africa, a country that the nations of the world do not want among their ranks, do not want to visit, which was thrown out of international organizations and conferences. We will become an accursed country that no one wants to have any ties with.”
Elsewhere: IDF story crumbling as detainee accounts emerge.
from Anthony Lowenstein’s site: Israeili writer Amos Oz fears “Israel is turning into Apartheid-era South Africa, a country that the nations of the world do not want among their ranks, do not want to visit, which was thrown out of international organizations and conferences. We will become an accursed country that no one wants to have any ties with.”
Elsewhere: IDF story crumbling as detainee accounts emerge.
So IDF members boarded a ship for no reason, for the purpose deliberately shooting dead at randowm several innocuous crew/supernumerary passengers?
This (the L.P. consensus) does seem to be the most far-fetched of all theories thus far put forward.
So IDF members boarded a ship for no reason, for the purpose deliberately shooting dead at randowm several innocuous crew/supernumerary passengers?
This (the L.P. consensus) does seem to be the most far-fetched of all theories thus far put forward.
Well, lucky that wasn’t the consensus, then!
Still making stuff up, Steve?
Well, lucky that wasn’t the consensus, then!
Still making stuff up, Steve?
Stll shplftng Hln?
Stll shplftng Hln?
well Steve, it would appear that is what happened, and those events have now been verified by several different journalists, a member of the Israeli cabinet and 3 members of the German Bundestag, all of whom were on board when it happened. The shooting started 5 minutes before boarding, one person died before boarding started, and the IDF kept shooting after the white flag was raised.
Perhaps you have an explanation for why the IDF did this in international waters that is better than “they’re a pack of rat bastards”?
well Steve, it would appear that is what happened, and those events have now been verified by several different journalists, a member of the Israeli cabinet and 3 members of the German Bundestag, all of whom were on board when it happened. The shooting started 5 minutes before boarding, one person died before boarding started, and the IDF kept shooting after the white flag was raised.
Perhaps you have an explanation for why the IDF did this in international waters that is better than “they’re a pack of rat bastards”?
C’mon then Steve. What’s your take?
What they did was perfectly okay? Not because they’re Israel and you back them automatically, but because it’d be okay for any country’s military to act like that?
Say… Indonesia’s?
C’mon then Steve. What’s your take?
What they did was perfectly okay? Not because they’re Israel and you back them automatically, but because it’d be okay for any country’s military to act like that?
Say… Indonesia’s?
Yeah Steve, let’s imagine that a flotilla of Aussie activists goes to West Papua to deliver supplies, and the Indonesian navy attacks them unprovoked in international waters, killing 9, then dumps the survivors in a prison in Bali. Your take on this is
a) oh good, a few less ratbags in the world
b) if Israel can do it, so can Indonesia, fair’s fair
c) what a pack of rat bastards
?
Yeah Steve, let’s imagine that a flotilla of Aussie activists goes to West Papua to deliver supplies, and the Indonesian navy attacks them unprovoked in international waters, killing 9, then dumps the survivors in a prison in Bali. Your take on this is
a) oh good, a few less ratbags in the world
b) if Israel can do it, so can Indonesia, fair’s fair
c) what a pack of rat bastards
?
LTL has put forward the most plausible theory thus far.
Ken Lovell #170 is bang on the money.
Sg, the IDF is a pack of bastards, that is their job. However it will take a lot more than subjective bleating by regulars of a hobbysite to convince me that the IDF just calmly took pot shots at people aboard a Comoros ship, for no reason other than to “knock a few off”.
LTL has put forward the most plausible theory thus far.
Ken Lovell #170 is bang on the money.
Sg, the IDF is a pack of bastards, that is their job. However it will take a lot more than subjective bleating by regulars of a hobbysite to convince me that the IDF just calmly took pot shots at people aboard a Comoros ship, for no reason other than to “knock a few off”.
well our “subjective bleating” seemed to be much better at predicting what actually happened than your insightful analysis of the realpolitik of the middle east, your recitation of Melanie Phillips talking points, or your understanding of the character of these “terrorists.” So maybe you should listen to the bleating a little more.
Also newsflash: being a soldier does not require the qualification of “bastard,” though it appears being geraldine doogue’s sock puppet on a hobbysite does.
well our “subjective bleating” seemed to be much better at predicting what actually happened than your insightful analysis of the realpolitik of the middle east, your recitation of Melanie Phillips talking points, or your understanding of the character of these “terrorists.” So maybe you should listen to the bleating a little more.
Also newsflash: being a soldier does not require the qualification of “bastard,” though it appears being geraldine doogue’s sock puppet on a hobbysite does.
One doesn’t “predict” past events Sg.
Who is Melanie Phillips? I don’t any commenter by that name on this thread.
You don’t take humiliation very well do you?
One doesn’t “predict” past events Sg.
Who is Melanie Phillips? I don’t any commenter by that name on this thread.
You don’t take humiliation very well do you?
haha, Steve I think you just admitted you never had a source for your initial claim. Well done!
I don’t take humiliation very well but I’m sure that, just like Flashman, you love dishing it out. On this occasion you’ve failed to do that. In fact, everything you’ve said has been wrong or offensive or both. You’re a legend.
haha, Steve I think you just admitted you never had a source for your initial claim. Well done!
I don’t take humiliation very well but I’m sure that, just like Flashman, you love dishing it out. On this occasion you’ve failed to do that. In fact, everything you’ve said has been wrong or offensive or both. You’re a legend.
@220. SATP, they did it because they wanted to terrorise opposition to their regime.
Where’s the mystery?
@220. SATP, they did it because they wanted to terrorise opposition to their regime.
Where’s the mystery?
I’ll take @222 as a “yes” to @221
I’ll take @222 as a “yes” to @221
You could see that even propagandists like Regev were starting to change their tune this morning by mentioning ‘how regretful they all are’ and ‘wishing it would never have happened’.
Read: the truth is catching up with our tale.
You could see that even propagandists like Regev were starting to change their tune this morning by mentioning ‘how regretful they all are’ and ‘wishing it would never have happened’.
Read: the truth is catching up with our tale.
Sg, links aplenty have been provided by others.
You are performing the internet equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears & chanting “I can’t hear you”. It is not more than one would expect of you, as it takes character to do otherwise. A trait you have yet to display.
Nothing I have said has been wrong. Reflexive jew/Israel bashing my comments aren’t, that does not make them wrong.
Don’t feel too bad, you weren’t the only one humiliated.
Sg, links aplenty have been provided by others.
You are performing the internet equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears & chanting “I can’t hear you”. It is not more than one would expect of you, as it takes character to do otherwise. A trait you have yet to display.
Nothing I have said has been wrong. Reflexive jew/Israel bashing my comments aren’t, that does not make them wrong.
Don’t feel too bad, you weren’t the only one humiliated.
LE, LIke everyone else, i’m really interested in the accounts of the passengers/activists as they unfold. A few i’ve read seem to clearly say no resistance was offered whatsoever, which seems at odds with the IDF footage, and unfortunatley makes witnesses look unreliable and/or biased.
Seems more likely that a large bunch of genuinely concerned, determined and essentially non-violent activists unwittingly aligned themselves with a few passengers with more controversial ideologies and strategies. A pity because the violent resistance convolutes the moral superiority of the humanitarian/justice aspect of the mission.
LE, LIke everyone else, i’m really interested in the accounts of the passengers/activists as they unfold. A few i’ve read seem to clearly say no resistance was offered whatsoever, which seems at odds with the IDF footage, and unfortunatley makes witnesses look unreliable and/or biased.
Seems more likely that a large bunch of genuinely concerned, determined and essentially non-violent activists unwittingly aligned themselves with a few passengers with more controversial ideologies and strategies. A pity because the violent resistance convolutes the moral superiority of the humanitarian/justice aspect of the mission.
To me it looks more like the IDF attacked the boat and when the soldiers started landing the passengers fought back, thinking they were about to be slaughtered on the high seas.
To me it looks more like the IDF attacked the boat and when the soldiers started landing the passengers fought back, thinking they were about to be slaughtered on the high seas.
As I predicted the REAL story is slowly coming out and it will be nothing like what the authorities have said to date. Note there are some very credible witnesses, such as these Americans:
Joe Meadors, a veteran of the 1967 bombing of the USS Liberty. Ann Wright, former US Army colonel and Deputy Chief of Mission to Afghanistan. Ambassador Edward L. Peck, former State Department Chief of Mission in Iraq and Mauritania, Deputy Director of the Cabinet Task Force on Terrorism at the Reagan White House, and State Department Liaison Officer to the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the Pentagon.
Plus a lot of others.
I’d still like to a confirmed body count (including wounded) though, I’ve a horrible feeling that it is going to be pretty ugly.
As I also predicted:
“But the lack of White House comment has opened the door for Congressmen to stake out public positions on the matter and, perhaps predictably, those that have commented have universally praised the killings.
Rep. Gary Ackerman, the House Foreign Affairs chair, praised the raid, saying he supported Israel’s decision to attack the ship and the decision of the commandos to use deadly force against the aid workers, who he said were “brutally attacking” them. He added that the whole matter was secretly Hamas’ fault.”
From: http://news.antiwar.com/2010/06/01/as-obama-havers-congressmen-cheer-aid-ship-massacre/
Apart from the tragedy of the loss of lives, as well as a diplomatic and PR disaster of the first magnitude, technically this is an act of war on Turkey. A Turkish ship, boarded in international waters (and an act of piracy by the way) and Turkish citizens killed. Be interesting to see whether the next convoy will have a Turkish gunboat escorting it.
Note all the furore about whether or not the people on the ships defended themselves is irrelvent under law. No one complains about crews defending themselves from Somali pirtates do they? And legally this is exactly the same thing.
Though I’ll still stand by my guess that it was desperate defence, of the “trying to save your or others life” kind, after violence (perhaps even lethal violence) was started by the boarders. No one rushes a gun unless you think you are going to be shot anyway.
Eventually someone will leak the whole Israeli video which will be very illuminating I’m sure … Wikileaks anyone.
As I predicted the REAL story is slowly coming out and it will be nothing like what the authorities have said to date. Note there are some very credible witnesses, such as these Americans:
Joe Meadors, a veteran of the 1967 bombing of the USS Liberty. Ann Wright, former US Army colonel and Deputy Chief of Mission to Afghanistan. Ambassador Edward L. Peck, former State Department Chief of Mission in Iraq and Mauritania, Deputy Director of the Cabinet Task Force on Terrorism at the Reagan White House, and State Department Liaison Officer to the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the Pentagon.
Plus a lot of others.
I’d still like to a confirmed body count (including wounded) though, I’ve a horrible feeling that it is going to be pretty ugly.
As I also predicted:
“But the lack of White House comment has opened the door for Congressmen to stake out public positions on the matter and, perhaps predictably, those that have commented have universally praised the killings.
Rep. Gary Ackerman, the House Foreign Affairs chair, praised the raid, saying he supported Israel’s decision to attack the ship and the decision of the commandos to use deadly force against the aid workers, who he said were “brutally attacking” them. He added that the whole matter was secretly Hamas’ fault.”
From: http://news.antiwar.com/2010/06/01/as-obama-havers-congressmen-cheer-aid-ship-massacre/
Apart from the tragedy of the loss of lives, as well as a diplomatic and PR disaster of the first magnitude, technically this is an act of war on Turkey. A Turkish ship, boarded in international waters (and an act of piracy by the way) and Turkish citizens killed. Be interesting to see whether the next convoy will have a Turkish gunboat escorting it.
Note all the furore about whether or not the people on the ships defended themselves is irrelvent under law. No one complains about crews defending themselves from Somali pirtates do they? And legally this is exactly the same thing.
Though I’ll still stand by my guess that it was desperate defence, of the “trying to save your or others life” kind, after violence (perhaps even lethal violence) was started by the boarders. No one rushes a gun unless you think you are going to be shot anyway.
Eventually someone will leak the whole Israeli video which will be very illuminating I’m sure … Wikileaks anyone.
Anybody who is stupid or gullible enough to even begin to believe the IDF version of events should read this: Gaza flotilla raid: ‘We heard gunfire – then our ship turned into lake of blood’
Anybody who is stupid or gullible enough to even begin to believe the IDF version of events should read this: Gaza flotilla raid: ‘We heard gunfire – then our ship turned into lake of blood’
STAP’s claim at #2 does seem to be substantiated by footage of (some) passengers saying they were seeking martyrdom in preference to reaching Gaza
Not helpful to( or representative of) the broader aims of wider group.
STAP’s claim at #2 does seem to be substantiated by footage of (some) passengers saying they were seeking martyrdom in preference to reaching Gaza
Not helpful to( or representative of) the broader aims of wider group.
On Faux News an ex-American Ambassador, who was on one of the Aid ships, was being grilled by Greta Van Sus-something. She demanded to know why the peace activist set out to confront and upset the Israelis and told him that the activists have made the situation in the Middle East far worse.
Ah, Rupert, we’re glad you became an American.
On Faux News an ex-American Ambassador, who was on one of the Aid ships, was being grilled by Greta Van Sus-something. She demanded to know why the peace activist set out to confront and upset the Israelis and told him that the activists have made the situation in the Middle East far worse.
Ah, Rupert, we’re glad you became an American.
sublime cowgirl, SATPs claim at #2 was dealt with earlier – prior to confrontation, people sing songs. Had they been British, it would have been rule britannia, which has a pretty strong theme of conflict on the waves. Would you conclude then that they were intending to take on the navy, or that they were just geeing themselves up with a meaningless song?
Stripping context from news is the responsibility of the media, not bloggers!
sublime cowgirl, SATPs claim at #2 was dealt with earlier – prior to confrontation, people sing songs. Had they been British, it would have been rule britannia, which has a pretty strong theme of conflict on the waves. Would you conclude then that they were intending to take on the navy, or that they were just geeing themselves up with a meaningless song?
Stripping context from news is the responsibility of the media, not bloggers!
Steadily coming out:
“An Arab member of the Israeli parliament who was on board the international flotilla that was attacked on Monday as it tried to take humanitarian aid to Gaza accused Israel yesterday of intending to kill peace activists as a way to deter future convoys.
Haneen Zoubi said Israeli naval vessels had surrounded the flotilla’s flagship, the Mavi Marmara, and fired on it a few minutes before commandos abseiled from a helicopter directly above them.
Terrified passengers had been forced off the deck when water was sprayed at them. She said she was not aware of any provocation or resistance by the passengers, who were all unarmed.
She added that within minutes of the raid beginning, three bodies had been brought to the main room on the upper deck in which she and most other passengers were confined. Two had gunshot wounds to the head, in what she suggested had been executions.
Two other passengers slowly bled to death in the room after Israeli soldiers ignored messages in Hebrew she had held up at the window calling for medical help to save them. She said she saw seven other passengers seriously wounded. ”
Link: http://original.antiwar.com/cook/2010/06/01/israeli-mps-terror-on-aid-ship/
No doubt later we will get direct eyewitness accounts to how some people were killed. Headshots are a bit damning.
Steadily coming out:
“An Arab member of the Israeli parliament who was on board the international flotilla that was attacked on Monday as it tried to take humanitarian aid to Gaza accused Israel yesterday of intending to kill peace activists as a way to deter future convoys.
Haneen Zoubi said Israeli naval vessels had surrounded the flotilla’s flagship, the Mavi Marmara, and fired on it a few minutes before commandos abseiled from a helicopter directly above them.
Terrified passengers had been forced off the deck when water was sprayed at them. She said she was not aware of any provocation or resistance by the passengers, who were all unarmed.
She added that within minutes of the raid beginning, three bodies had been brought to the main room on the upper deck in which she and most other passengers were confined. Two had gunshot wounds to the head, in what she suggested had been executions.
Two other passengers slowly bled to death in the room after Israeli soldiers ignored messages in Hebrew she had held up at the window calling for medical help to save them. She said she saw seven other passengers seriously wounded. ”
Link: http://original.antiwar.com/cook/2010/06/01/israeli-mps-terror-on-aid-ship/
No doubt later we will get direct eyewitness accounts to how some people were killed. Headshots are a bit damning.
John Pasquerale any one? Was a publican not all that far from here and as the locals would tell you has form. It’s said a gun was produced to back up an argument which sounds like the type of behavior a certain commenter here applauds.
John Pasquerale any one? Was a publican not all that far from here and as the locals would tell you has form. It’s said a gun was produced to back up an argument which sounds like the type of behavior a certain commenter here applauds.
Sublime Cowgirl said:
No, it doesn’t. If the mission is ethically warranted — it was — they are entitled to pursue it even in the face of violent harrassment by the armed thugs of the IDF. In pursuing it they are entitled to use prortionate and properly directed force either to continue the mission or defend themselves against assault.
Once it was clear that the invading party of IDF troops intended to use deadly force (it now seems clear that the first death preceded the first IDF trooper’s invasion of the craft), then what was proportionate included deadly force. As it happened their only means of approaching deadly force were
a) hand to hand combat weapons such as clubs, knives and other improvised weapons
b) weapons they siezed from the IDF invaders.
Again, both categories of weapons are fruit from the tree to use the metaphor. They are entitled to resist piracy, even with small arms and the firearms they did use were brought by the invaders to intimidate and/or kill them, so the IDF are estopped from challenging the legitimacy of their use. They had through their act, constructively deemed this to be a situation in which resort to such arms was legitimate.
Israel claims not to be occupying Gaza but by blockading the state it is effectively occupying it by impinging on its sovereignty. Under the normal usages of war, it is responsible for the wellbeing of non-combatants in Gaza. By attacking a ship supplying goods that Israel should supply, it is doing the exact opposite of what it is supposed to do. By attacking a Turkish vessel in international waters it has effectively attacked the Turkish state and killed its citizens.
It’s going to be a while before that is all sorted out.
Sublime Cowgirl said:
No, it doesn’t. If the mission is ethically warranted — it was — they are entitled to pursue it even in the face of violent harrassment by the armed thugs of the IDF. In pursuing it they are entitled to use prortionate and properly directed force either to continue the mission or defend themselves against assault.
Once it was clear that the invading party of IDF troops intended to use deadly force (it now seems clear that the first death preceded the first IDF trooper’s invasion of the craft), then what was proportionate included deadly force. As it happened their only means of approaching deadly force were
a) hand to hand combat weapons such as clubs, knives and other improvised weapons
b) weapons they siezed from the IDF invaders.
Again, both categories of weapons are fruit from the tree to use the metaphor. They are entitled to resist piracy, even with small arms and the firearms they did use were brought by the invaders to intimidate and/or kill them, so the IDF are estopped from challenging the legitimacy of their use. They had through their act, constructively deemed this to be a situation in which resort to such arms was legitimate.
Israel claims not to be occupying Gaza but by blockading the state it is effectively occupying it by impinging on its sovereignty. Under the normal usages of war, it is responsible for the wellbeing of non-combatants in Gaza. By attacking a ship supplying goods that Israel should supply, it is doing the exact opposite of what it is supposed to do. By attacking a Turkish vessel in international waters it has effectively attacked the Turkish state and killed its citizens.
It’s going to be a while before that is all sorted out.
sublime cowgirl @ 234 – well it may well be that the vast majority of people on board were planning (and did) do non violent resistance. But as is seen in protests it takes only a very small minority of protestors who are willing to get violent to result in things getting out of control. Or it may be as simple as a few people just panicking and getting violent as a result which then ended up getting out of control.
What I hadn’t realised till more news coverage of this was that this is not the first time a flotilla like this has sailed. Previous ones have been intercepted by the Israelis with (as far as I know) no deaths but there have been accusations of violence (eg ramming boats to stop them etc).
Also according to the news reports Israel did prior to boarding offer to distribute the aid on the boats through the normal checkpoints with representatives of the people on board escorting it, but that offer was declined. I think that puts a bit of perspective on what the real aim of the flotilla was – and that was not getting aid in. But regardless I think its a legitimate way to protest the situation in Gaza and does not absolve Israel from most of the responsibility for what happened.
sublime cowgirl @ 234 – well it may well be that the vast majority of people on board were planning (and did) do non violent resistance. But as is seen in protests it takes only a very small minority of protestors who are willing to get violent to result in things getting out of control. Or it may be as simple as a few people just panicking and getting violent as a result which then ended up getting out of control.
What I hadn’t realised till more news coverage of this was that this is not the first time a flotilla like this has sailed. Previous ones have been intercepted by the Israelis with (as far as I know) no deaths but there have been accusations of violence (eg ramming boats to stop them etc).
Also according to the news reports Israel did prior to boarding offer to distribute the aid on the boats through the normal checkpoints with representatives of the people on board escorting it, but that offer was declined. I think that puts a bit of perspective on what the real aim of the flotilla was – and that was not getting aid in. But regardless I think its a legitimate way to protest the situation in Gaza and does not absolve Israel from most of the responsibility for what happened.
Fixed that for you Chris. Why do people insist on wilfully ignoring what actually happened?
Fixed that for you Chris. Why do people insist on wilfully ignoring what actually happened?
Sublime said:
They were saying that it was reaching Gaza or martyrdom. In western parlance: death or glory; over my dead body;
It’s a statement of commitment that has ample analog in western culture. It is most common to commend our fellows for bravery when they put themselves in lethal jeopardy in pursuit of a noble cause (here it was the relief of Gaza).
I wonder what one might have said if there were footage of members of the relief flotilla heading for Dunkirk declaring their commitment to rescue the retreating troops or die in the attempt. Would this count against them?
Sublime said:
They were saying that it was reaching Gaza or martyrdom. In western parlance: death or glory; over my dead body;
It’s a statement of commitment that has ample analog in western culture. It is most common to commend our fellows for bravery when they put themselves in lethal jeopardy in pursuit of a noble cause (here it was the relief of Gaza).
I wonder what one might have said if there were footage of members of the relief flotilla heading for Dunkirk declaring their commitment to rescue the retreating troops or die in the attempt. Would this count against them?
It is not just Israel blockading Gaza. Egype is also.
Was it that the purpose of the freedom convoy was to embarras Israel? Or that the activists aboard the convoy considered the thrill of goading a democratically elected western style government to be much safer than pressing the buttons of the Egyptian government?
It is not just Israel blockading Gaza. Egype is also.
Was it that the purpose of the freedom convoy was to embarras Israel? Or that the activists aboard the convoy considered the thrill of goading a democratically elected western style government to be much safer than pressing the buttons of the Egyptian government?
sg @ 243 – it could also have been Israeli’s initiating the violence. But, if all of the protesters had stuck to non violent resistance as they claimed they were going to, and even had training in, then there would not be any video footage of passengers attacking soldiers.
sg @ 243 – it could also have been Israeli’s initiating the violence. But, if all of the protesters had stuck to non violent resistance as they claimed they were going to, and even had training in, then there would not be any video footage of passengers attacking soldiers.
While I, like most, deplore the violence and loss of life in this incident, and am hardly a knee-jerk supporter of Israel, still I must say that many of the modes of reasoning which I read on this thread strike me as… um, deficient in merit.
Given the climate of anger and frustration which perenially and understandably surrounds these issues, it’s not surprising for feelings to run high. So I don’t want to take anybody to task, esp. as that might make it worse. btw, I don’t mean these comments as a subtle endorsement of the Israeli actions, far from it — but I do see the issue in more than one dimension.
When heads cool, as cool they must (and it’s no demerit in my view to have a hot-headed take on things at present, it’s simply a privilege with an expiration date), then perhaps this incident can be dissected in a wider and fully fact-based perspective, to the satisfaction of all.
While I, like most, deplore the violence and loss of life in this incident, and am hardly a knee-jerk supporter of Israel, still I must say that many of the modes of reasoning which I read on this thread strike me as… um, deficient in merit.
Given the climate of anger and frustration which perenially and understandably surrounds these issues, it’s not surprising for feelings to run high. So I don’t want to take anybody to task, esp. as that might make it worse. btw, I don’t mean these comments as a subtle endorsement of the Israeli actions, far from it — but I do see the issue in more than one dimension.
When heads cool, as cool they must (and it’s no demerit in my view to have a hot-headed take on things at present, it’s simply a privilege with an expiration date), then perhaps this incident can be dissected in a wider and fully fact-based perspective, to the satisfaction of all.
Chris, you don’t know that that is true at all. By the time those soldiers were on the boat they had already shot and killed one of the passengers, in a night raid in international waters. The people on that boat had no reason to suppose that what was going to happen next was going to be defused by non-violent resistance methods, and in fact we now know that the Israeli soldiers did the following:
a) attacked a “human wall” offering the peaceful resistance you so describe with pepper spray, tazers and possibly live ammunition
b) shot the captain of the 8000
c) tortured some of the protesters on their return to Israel
In short we have no reason to think the people on that boat would benefit from peaceful resistance in any way, or that they could see any option but to defend themselves.
Not to mention of course, that people have a right to defend their boat from attack on the high seas, and Israel doesn’t have the right to attack non-belligerent ships in international waters.
Chris, you don’t know that that is true at all. By the time those soldiers were on the boat they had already shot and killed one of the passengers, in a night raid in international waters. The people on that boat had no reason to suppose that what was going to happen next was going to be defused by non-violent resistance methods, and in fact we now know that the Israeli soldiers did the following:
a) attacked a “human wall” offering the peaceful resistance you so describe with pepper spray, tazers and possibly live ammunition
b) shot the captain of the 8000
c) tortured some of the protesters on their return to Israel
In short we have no reason to think the people on that boat would benefit from peaceful resistance in any way, or that they could see any option but to defend themselves.
Not to mention of course, that people have a right to defend their boat from attack on the high seas, and Israel doesn’t have the right to attack non-belligerent ships in international waters.
Japerz claimed in part:
When someone says that I always wonder what they mean in practice (as opposed to theory).
Does it mean that you feel you can assess each piece of reportage on its “objective” merits? Within what paradigm(s) do you evaluate? What sources of data are reliable, in your opinion?
It’s all very well to “deplore the violence and loss of life”. That’s motherhood stuff. How many also deplore the entirely avoidable violence and loss of life amongst the residents of Gaza, for example, and the action of the Israeli state which lies at the heart of the problem? Secular processes are a lot less exciting but they can be every bit as lethal.
Japerz claimed in part:
When someone says that I always wonder what they mean in practice (as opposed to theory).
Does it mean that you feel you can assess each piece of reportage on its “objective” merits? Within what paradigm(s) do you evaluate? What sources of data are reliable, in your opinion?
It’s all very well to “deplore the violence and loss of life”. That’s motherhood stuff. How many also deplore the entirely avoidable violence and loss of life amongst the residents of Gaza, for example, and the action of the Israeli state which lies at the heart of the problem? Secular processes are a lot less exciting but they can be every bit as lethal.
‘Why do people insist on wilfully ignoring what actually happened?’
Because it’s Israel of course. Virtually any other state and you wouldn’t have people either directly or through insinuation stating that it is not entirely Israel’s fault, and if those damn victims hadn’t tried to defend themselved, it would have been so much better. It’s quite pathetic really.
BTW Chris, I assume you have experience at being attacked without warning by armed soldiers from helicopters in the early hours of the morning, while on a ship and unarmed. Then I assume you can offer your gratuitous advice to those who actually were in the situation from the benefit of your experience.
‘Why do people insist on wilfully ignoring what actually happened?’
Because it’s Israel of course. Virtually any other state and you wouldn’t have people either directly or through insinuation stating that it is not entirely Israel’s fault, and if those damn victims hadn’t tried to defend themselved, it would have been so much better. It’s quite pathetic really.
BTW Chris, I assume you have experience at being attacked without warning by armed soldiers from helicopters in the early hours of the morning, while on a ship and unarmed. Then I assume you can offer your gratuitous advice to those who actually were in the situation from the benefit of your experience.
j-p-z @247: “…fully fact-based perspective, to the satisfaction of all.”
Just wondering if you might indicate who will provide this impartial “fact-based perspective” (flotilla participants or IDF or people who weren’t there at the time), and why the proposed “facts” will be to the “satisfaction” of all?
It is looking a bit like a dog’s breakfast at the moment. The clearest facts seem to be: the position of the boats at the time of boarding, the use of firearms, and the number of dead and injured.
I’m not sure if they will be able to prove “who started it, who was provoked, and who was retaliating”. Especially if the video footage taken by flotilla participants has been largely confiscated.
Incidentally, just wondering about the strange choice of international waters in the dead of night. Perhaps, if the IDF waited until the flotilla reached Israeli contested waters, they might have expected the flotilla people to be awake and on-deck, making their surprise mission not so surprising? Hence the preference for international waters in the dead of night?
j-p-z @247: “…fully fact-based perspective, to the satisfaction of all.”
Just wondering if you might indicate who will provide this impartial “fact-based perspective” (flotilla participants or IDF or people who weren’t there at the time), and why the proposed “facts” will be to the “satisfaction” of all?
It is looking a bit like a dog’s breakfast at the moment. The clearest facts seem to be: the position of the boats at the time of boarding, the use of firearms, and the number of dead and injured.
I’m not sure if they will be able to prove “who started it, who was provoked, and who was retaliating”. Especially if the video footage taken by flotilla participants has been largely confiscated.
Incidentally, just wondering about the strange choice of international waters in the dead of night. Perhaps, if the IDF waited until the flotilla reached Israeli contested waters, they might have expected the flotilla people to be awake and on-deck, making their surprise mission not so surprising? Hence the preference for international waters in the dead of night?
Whenever you hear the phrase ‘I deplore the violence and loss of life’, you just know a ‘but’ will swiftly follow, either stated or implied.
We’ve learnt more than we realise from politicians.
Whenever you hear the phrase ‘I deplore the violence and loss of life’, you just know a ‘but’ will swiftly follow, either stated or implied.
We’ve learnt more than we realise from politicians.
Chris@242:
That claim has been made many times over the last 2 days by Israeli spokespeople, but it doesn’t stack up. The three previous land convoys have had all kinds of disruptions and attacks made on them. During the Viva Palestina convoy from Britain in January this year, Egyptian police attacked the protestors at Al-Areesh, during which one policeman died and 3 Palestinian protestors were injured. Also, non-medical aid has been confiscated from the convoys by Egyptian authorities and Israeli authorities have restricted the number of vehicles finally allowed to cross the border.
The flotilla protestors were within their rights to refuse to hand over the aid to Israeli authorities. They would have been well aware of the Egyptian and Israeli track record on dealing with the previous convoys – and were unlikely to trust that the aid would get through. Also, transferring 10,000 tonnes of aid goods from one set of transport vehicles to another set – and for no reason other than Israel’s political heavy-handedness – would have made the whole procedure unnecessarily costly, time-consuming and inefficient.
Chris@242:
That claim has been made many times over the last 2 days by Israeli spokespeople, but it doesn’t stack up. The three previous land convoys have had all kinds of disruptions and attacks made on them. During the Viva Palestina convoy from Britain in January this year, Egyptian police attacked the protestors at Al-Areesh, during which one policeman died and 3 Palestinian protestors were injured. Also, non-medical aid has been confiscated from the convoys by Egyptian authorities and Israeli authorities have restricted the number of vehicles finally allowed to cross the border.
The flotilla protestors were within their rights to refuse to hand over the aid to Israeli authorities. They would have been well aware of the Egyptian and Israeli track record on dealing with the previous convoys – and were unlikely to trust that the aid would get through. Also, transferring 10,000 tonnes of aid goods from one set of transport vehicles to another set – and for no reason other than Israel’s political heavy-handedness – would have made the whole procedure unnecessarily costly, time-consuming and inefficient.
@245 Grasping at straws now…
@246 As I said earlier, how come its okay for wealthy white westerns on a crusie ship to throw deck chairs at armed boarding parties off the Horn of Africa but an outrage when its a largely Muslim aid convoy..?
@245 Grasping at straws now…
@246 As I said earlier, how come its okay for wealthy white westerns on a crusie ship to throw deck chairs at armed boarding parties off the Horn of Africa but an outrage when its a largely Muslim aid convoy..?
sg @ 248 – what you say may well all be correct (I haven’t had time to keep up with the news reports today). It would be totally understandable for people to use violence to defend themselves. But I don’t think the violent resistance led to less deaths and injuries than would have otherwise occurred and the video footage of it that due to Israeli censorship got out first has not helped.
As for the surprise – well they would have been a little naive to believe that they would not have been intercepted by the Israelis at some point.
ioraru – its a bit of a stretch to blame Israel for Egyptian police attacking protesters or confiscating non-medical aid (wonder where it went?). Presumably though the blockade by Egypt is encouraged by Israel or does Egypt have their own reasons for wanting to blockade Gaza as well? Regardless I do agree that the protesters were within their right to refuse and I said so – just saying that getting aid through was not their primary aim. It was intended as a political protest with the side effect of getting aid through. And if you look at the various websites/facebook pages around its pretty clear it was always intended to put political pressure on Israel and to get media attention.
sg @ 248 – what you say may well all be correct (I haven’t had time to keep up with the news reports today). It would be totally understandable for people to use violence to defend themselves. But I don’t think the violent resistance led to less deaths and injuries than would have otherwise occurred and the video footage of it that due to Israeli censorship got out first has not helped.
As for the surprise – well they would have been a little naive to believe that they would not have been intercepted by the Israelis at some point.
ioraru – its a bit of a stretch to blame Israel for Egyptian police attacking protesters or confiscating non-medical aid (wonder where it went?). Presumably though the blockade by Egypt is encouraged by Israel or does Egypt have their own reasons for wanting to blockade Gaza as well? Regardless I do agree that the protesters were within their right to refuse and I said so – just saying that getting aid through was not their primary aim. It was intended as a political protest with the side effect of getting aid through. And if you look at the various websites/facebook pages around its pretty clear it was always intended to put political pressure on Israel and to get media attention.
I recall the attempted pirate hijacking of the Maersk Alabama a year ago, where the crew armed themselves and resisted the pirates with, among other things, knives. That incident ended with the pirates taking the ship’s master hostage and then in turn being overcome by US naval personnel. President Obama said of the knife-wielding captain at the time: “I share the country’s admiration for the bravery of Captain Phillips and his selfless concern for his crew. His courage is a model for all Americans.”
The Israeli military’s reputation for casual homicide is no less fearsome than Somali pirates’. There were many options for frustrating the Freedom Flotilla’s progress other than boarding the ships under a hail of covering fire in international waters, and the allegedly highly professional Israeli military* chose not to use any of them. It seems fair to assume that at least part of their intention was to terrorise the passengers and so warn off others.
Meanwhile, SATP continues to ignore my question about whether it’s ok to kill someone for saying (or in this case singing) something you don’t like. His silence implies the affirmative, so we can safely ridicule any appeal he may make to democracy in future.
*As numerous Israeli commentators have pointed out, the occupation continues to debauch the IDF’s once lofty combat standards. The armed louts spraying passengers with automatic weapons fire on Monday were a world away from the squad that rescued the hijacked passengers from Uganda three decades ago. Brutalising civilians tends to be inimical to maintenance of high military standards, just as it debases the moral standards of both occupiers and occupied.
I recall the attempted pirate hijacking of the Maersk Alabama a year ago, where the crew armed themselves and resisted the pirates with, among other things, knives. That incident ended with the pirates taking the ship’s master hostage and then in turn being overcome by US naval personnel. President Obama said of the knife-wielding captain at the time: “I share the country’s admiration for the bravery of Captain Phillips and his selfless concern for his crew. His courage is a model for all Americans.”
The Israeli military’s reputation for casual homicide is no less fearsome than Somali pirates’. There were many options for frustrating the Freedom Flotilla’s progress other than boarding the ships under a hail of covering fire in international waters, and the allegedly highly professional Israeli military* chose not to use any of them. It seems fair to assume that at least part of their intention was to terrorise the passengers and so warn off others.
Meanwhile, SATP continues to ignore my question about whether it’s ok to kill someone for saying (or in this case singing) something you don’t like. His silence implies the affirmative, so we can safely ridicule any appeal he may make to democracy in future.
*As numerous Israeli commentators have pointed out, the occupation continues to debauch the IDF’s once lofty combat standards. The armed louts spraying passengers with automatic weapons fire on Monday were a world away from the squad that rescued the hijacked passengers from Uganda three decades ago. Brutalising civilians tends to be inimical to maintenance of high military standards, just as it debases the moral standards of both occupiers and occupied.
Has anyone looked at the numbers?
Now the Mavi Marmara, where the majority (or all) of the deaths/wounded carried 600 passengers.
Now the reports of deaths and wounded vary a bit, in total seem to be around the 40-50 mark (10-19 deaths, 30-40 wounded, unknown how many of them serious and/or gunshot).
At 40 total that is an astonishing 6.7% of all passengers. Worse in that many would have been below decks, so it appears to be a very high percentage of those in exposed areas (on deck, bridge, etc). If, say, 100 were on deck we are looking at 40%-50% casualties, that’s the sort of numbers you get with a full blown armed assault (ie you go in firing from thr word go).
Now if some sort of fracas that might have started when they were boarded then you might expect 5-10 or so wounded (to different degrees of severity), possibly 1 or 2 deaths.
This is looking more and more like a slaughter.
Has anyone looked at the numbers?
Now the Mavi Marmara, where the majority (or all) of the deaths/wounded carried 600 passengers.
Now the reports of deaths and wounded vary a bit, in total seem to be around the 40-50 mark (10-19 deaths, 30-40 wounded, unknown how many of them serious and/or gunshot).
At 40 total that is an astonishing 6.7% of all passengers. Worse in that many would have been below decks, so it appears to be a very high percentage of those in exposed areas (on deck, bridge, etc). If, say, 100 were on deck we are looking at 40%-50% casualties, that’s the sort of numbers you get with a full blown armed assault (ie you go in firing from thr word go).
Now if some sort of fracas that might have started when they were boarded then you might expect 5-10 or so wounded (to different degrees of severity), possibly 1 or 2 deaths.
This is looking more and more like a slaughter.
yes Chris, what I say “may very well be correct.” Before passing judgement on what some dead people did or didn’t do to get themselves killed, you should examine the facts of the circumstances in which they were murdered. Then what you say, too, might “very well be correct.”
yes Chris, what I say “may very well be correct.” Before passing judgement on what some dead people did or didn’t do to get themselves killed, you should examine the facts of the circumstances in which they were murdered. Then what you say, too, might “very well be correct.”
I still cannot comprehend the mentality.
If they had just let them through it would be a 1 minute wonder in news terms. In fact you would expect almost no mainstream news organisation would even mention it, maybe a paragraph on page 15 on a slow news day.
Israel could even have neutralised it by insisting (and giving guarantees) that the cargo be landed on an Israeli port, but after checking (and allowing neutrals to observe) then quickly it onto sending to Gaza. Again a page 15 thing, plus Israel could spin it to make them look good.
Even if they had just waited until it was in (not totally recognised but still better from a PR point of view) Israeli waters?
Dear god, a nation with 200+ nuclear weapons ran by numbskulls. And the risk, what if (maybe they have of course) killed some Americans? Their biggest benefactor.
I still cannot comprehend the mentality.
If they had just let them through it would be a 1 minute wonder in news terms. In fact you would expect almost no mainstream news organisation would even mention it, maybe a paragraph on page 15 on a slow news day.
Israel could even have neutralised it by insisting (and giving guarantees) that the cargo be landed on an Israeli port, but after checking (and allowing neutrals to observe) then quickly it onto sending to Gaza. Again a page 15 thing, plus Israel could spin it to make them look good.
Even if they had just waited until it was in (not totally recognised but still better from a PR point of view) Israeli waters?
Dear god, a nation with 200+ nuclear weapons ran by numbskulls. And the risk, what if (maybe they have of course) killed some Americans? Their biggest benefactor.
sg @ 257 – great to hear you know all the facts of the situation. I guess there’ll be no need for a UN investigation since they can just ask you.
sg @ 257 – great to hear you know all the facts of the situation. I guess there’ll be no need for a UN investigation since they can just ask you.
There’ll be no need for a UN investigation since the US will veto it. Now why would they do that, if all the facts are so obviously going to come out in favour of the IDF?
There’ll be no need for a UN investigation since the US will veto it. Now why would they do that, if all the facts are so obviously going to come out in favour of the IDF?
Hal9000 your question has had all the response it deserves.
Hal9000 your question has had all the response it deserves.
I dunno Sublime Cowgirl, I find “victim, acting in self-defence” talk from heavily armed soliders facing a few men with sticks kinda far fetched. Especially given what we KNOW followed: show us the footage when 9 (or 19) people are shot dead – then we’ll have the context for their actions. The IDF has literally shown us *nothing* that could possibly support their known subsequent actions.
The ADF dealt with violence as bad, and often worse than that on the streets of Dili every day in late 2006 – without ever shooting 9 (or 19) people dead.
At least one wounded casualty was reportedly shot on another boat.
We also need to know what preceded the video. Here’s another possible interpretation of the video: the men holding sticks – not guns – are the ones acting in self-defence. Plenty of witness accounts are now saying that what preceded the video we see was the ship being fired upon from the air. Some reports say that one passenger was already dead before the IDF boarding.
I might add, the IDFs seizure of all passenger video evidence gives me roughly ZERO confidence in their version of events to date.
Again, more and more passenger accounts will out soon.
I dunno Sublime Cowgirl, I find “victim, acting in self-defence” talk from heavily armed soliders facing a few men with sticks kinda far fetched. Especially given what we KNOW followed: show us the footage when 9 (or 19) people are shot dead – then we’ll have the context for their actions. The IDF has literally shown us *nothing* that could possibly support their known subsequent actions.
The ADF dealt with violence as bad, and often worse than that on the streets of Dili every day in late 2006 – without ever shooting 9 (or 19) people dead.
At least one wounded casualty was reportedly shot on another boat.
We also need to know what preceded the video. Here’s another possible interpretation of the video: the men holding sticks – not guns – are the ones acting in self-defence. Plenty of witness accounts are now saying that what preceded the video we see was the ship being fired upon from the air. Some reports say that one passenger was already dead before the IDF boarding.
I might add, the IDFs seizure of all passenger video evidence gives me roughly ZERO confidence in their version of events to date.
Again, more and more passenger accounts will out soon.
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177028
Israel’s High Court petitioned by lawyers:
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177028
Israel’s High Court petitioned by lawyers:
So, feeding and healing the poor undermines Israel’s security? Obama is a dick, and a [disemvoweled] pss.
So, feeding and healing the poor undermines Israel’s security? Obama is a dick, and a [disemvoweled] pss.
So SATP, you do think it’s okay to kill people you disagree with? Bye bye democracy, eh?
So SATP, you do think it’s okay to kill people you disagree with? Bye bye democracy, eh?
Sg, I am under no obligation to answer moronic questions.
Have you stopped flashing to children in the playground?
Sg, I am under no obligation to answer moronic questions.
Have you stopped flashing to children in the playground?
no, nor are you under any obligation to explain your own stupid statements. But it was you who observed that a few “bad eggs” had moved on, that 10 protesters was “a good start” and that the protesters chanting “kill the jew.” We’ve all been wondering if perhaps your claims about the protesters inform your decision that they were “bad eggs” who it was good to see killed; if so it certainly seems like you think killing people for their opinions is a good thing.
It’s your own moronic and tasteless comments you have to defend, not anyone else’s questions.
no, nor are you under any obligation to explain your own stupid statements. But it was you who observed that a few “bad eggs” had moved on, that 10 protesters was “a good start” and that the protesters chanting “kill the jew.” We’ve all been wondering if perhaps your claims about the protesters inform your decision that they were “bad eggs” who it was good to see killed; if so it certainly seems like you think killing people for their opinions is a good thing.
It’s your own moronic and tasteless comments you have to defend, not anyone else’s questions.
Please provide the names of the boats in the Freedom Flotilla that were boarded by Egyptian troops.
Please provide the names of the boats in the Freedom Flotilla that were boarded by Egyptian troops.
LE: I dunno Sublime Cowgirl, I find “victim, acting in self-defence” talk from heavily armed soliders facing a few men with sticks kinda far fetched.
And to a large extent i concur!
Fran – i get what you’re saying – (i’m thinking, for example of (Rudd’s beloved) Bonhoeffer vis a vis the assasination of Hitler). Its just that images of a mob pummelling soldiers does the cause of “peace” much good in the long term, and potentially makes it a whole lot harder for all future aid and ngo staff in other political hot spots. Btw , the interview i saw had one of the activist stating martyrdom was preferable to delivering the aid.
LE: I dunno Sublime Cowgirl, I find “victim, acting in self-defence” talk from heavily armed soliders facing a few men with sticks kinda far fetched.
And to a large extent i concur!
Fran – i get what you’re saying – (i’m thinking, for example of (Rudd’s beloved) Bonhoeffer vis a vis the assasination of Hitler). Its just that images of a mob pummelling soldiers does the cause of “peace” much good in the long term, and potentially makes it a whole lot harder for all future aid and ngo staff in other political hot spots. Btw , the interview i saw had one of the activist stating martyrdom was preferable to delivering the aid.
(sigh) Sg, I made a comment at #2. The substance of this comment has been replicated by a handful of other commenters.
I made a less than magnaminous statement at #109, and was entitled to be so, considering the lies, slander and vilification I had been subjected to for mentioning in the thread stuff I had found elsewhere on the internet.
My comment at #2 was not “stupid”, nor baseless, nor did I make it up.
These attacks say more about the character of those who were rude to me for possessing research skills (that would be including you)
I DID call it “engaging brain before mouth”
I recommend you try it, even if for just a short while.
In short, Grow Up.
(sigh) Sg, I made a comment at #2. The substance of this comment has been replicated by a handful of other commenters.
I made a less than magnaminous statement at #109, and was entitled to be so, considering the lies, slander and vilification I had been subjected to for mentioning in the thread stuff I had found elsewhere on the internet.
My comment at #2 was not “stupid”, nor baseless, nor did I make it up.
These attacks say more about the character of those who were rude to me for possessing research skills (that would be including you)
I DID call it “engaging brain before mouth”
I recommend you try it, even if for just a short while.
In short, Grow Up.
Katz is comparing Apples with ORanges again.
Are you deliberately obtuse? Or just unable to read for comprehension?
Whichever it is, you are certainly consistent at it.
However neither become you.
Katz is comparing Apples with ORanges again.
Are you deliberately obtuse? Or just unable to read for comprehension?
Whichever it is, you are certainly consistent at it.
However neither become you.
The Freedom Flotilla, just like the Freedom Ride, drew activists from a broad range of movements and tendencies.
From personal experience, during the Vietnam protests the New Left were dubbed as useful idiots in the service of Moscow or Peking (as it was called then). Liberals, the RSL, B.A. Santamaria and the usual suspects never missed an opportunity to kick the Commie Can.
As it turned out, the Old Left withered and died and the New Left flourished. So who were whose useful idiots?
The same can be said of the non-jihadists who shared deck space with a few Islamist fanatics on the Freedom Flotilla.
The Freedom Flotilla, just like the Freedom Ride, drew activists from a broad range of movements and tendencies.
From personal experience, during the Vietnam protests the New Left were dubbed as useful idiots in the service of Moscow or Peking (as it was called then). Liberals, the RSL, B.A. Santamaria and the usual suspects never missed an opportunity to kick the Commie Can.
As it turned out, the Old Left withered and died and the New Left flourished. So who were whose useful idiots?
The same can be said of the non-jihadists who shared deck space with a few Islamist fanatics on the Freedom Flotilla.
You know SATP, demands for me to grow up would look a lot more adult if you had ever bothered to back up your assertion at 2, or to explain what its implications were. It certainly seems like you think this alleged song provides justification for murder, hence the questions. If you don’t think it provides this justification, perhaps you could explain why you raised it – or for that matter where your much-vaunted research skills found it? Because you haven’t posted a link or any claim except that “al jazeera showed it,” and it doesn’t appear to be reported elsewhere, so…?
You know SATP, demands for me to grow up would look a lot more adult if you had ever bothered to back up your assertion at 2, or to explain what its implications were. It certainly seems like you think this alleged song provides justification for murder, hence the questions. If you don’t think it provides this justification, perhaps you could explain why you raised it – or for that matter where your much-vaunted research skills found it? Because you haven’t posted a link or any claim except that “al jazeera showed it,” and it doesn’t appear to be reported elsewhere, so…?
On the contrary SATP, it is you who were obtuse in your otiose implication that Egypt and Israel were somehow equivalent in this case.
The world can see that. Fortunately you don’t need to in order for me to have made my point.
On the contrary SATP, it is you who were obtuse in your otiose implication that Egypt and Israel were somehow equivalent in this case.
The world can see that. Fortunately you don’t need to in order for me to have made my point.
Katz: Whatever. I’m not interested in your pointless diversions. Is it because you don’t have answers, or because you can’t focus on the one point for longer than half a comment?
Sg: You are positvely screeching now. What is so special about my comment at #2 that doesn’t apply to the other Three (possibly more) commenters who concurred?
Have you forgotten to take your meds?
Katz: Whatever. I’m not interested in your pointless diversions. Is it because you don’t have answers, or because you can’t focus on the one point for longer than half a comment?
Sg: You are positvely screeching now. What is so special about my comment at #2 that doesn’t apply to the other Three (possibly more) commenters who concurred?
Have you forgotten to take your meds?
You don’t get any better with repeated exposure, do you SATP? You don’t have any evidence for your claim despite your mad research SkilZ, and your gloating over the death of those activists now looks a bit sick doesn’t it?
Or would you like to admit again that you’re happy they’re dead, and they deserved it because they (may have) sung a bad song?
You don’t get any better with repeated exposure, do you SATP? You don’t have any evidence for your claim despite your mad research SkilZ, and your gloating over the death of those activists now looks a bit sick doesn’t it?
Or would you like to admit again that you’re happy they’re dead, and they deserved it because they (may have) sung a bad song?
Sg, do your nurses know a computer has been locked inside the ward with you?
What is it about Comment #2 that differentiates it from at least Three others later in the thread that say more or less the same thing?
You can’t seem to stop the unhinged personal attack. Act sane & I’ll happily discuss anything. Otherwise you’re on your own on this one.
sg, here’s what i saw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HThF8ft5Cls&feature=player_embedded
I’ve seen this on a few right wing sites, and a few news channels.
Various commentary, some more hysterical than others.
Googling gaza martyrdom will pull numerous links.
Sg, do your nurses know a computer has been locked inside the ward with you?
What is it about Comment #2 that differentiates it from at least Three others later in the thread that say more or less the same thing?
You can’t seem to stop the unhinged personal attack. Act sane & I’ll happily discuss anything. Otherwise you’re on your own on this one.
sg, here’s what i saw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HThF8ft5Cls&feature=player_embedded
I’ve seen this on a few right wing sites, and a few news channels.
Various commentary, some more hysterical than others.
Googling gaza martyrdom will pull numerous links.
Yes Steve, and those other commenters are not commenting here to say that they’re happy the protesters were killed, whereas you did, twice. Which puts a slightly different tone to your claims than theirs (which were, incidentally, dealt with in that context up above, as your mad research skilZ no doubt have shown you).
Perhaps you could explain to me what’s unhinged about pointing out that you wished these people dead, and more like them?
Yes Steve, and those other commenters are not commenting here to say that they’re happy the protesters were killed, whereas you did, twice. Which puts a slightly different tone to your claims than theirs (which were, incidentally, dealt with in that context up above, as your mad research skilZ no doubt have shown you).
Perhaps you could explain to me what’s unhinged about pointing out that you wished these people dead, and more like them?
For those of you who may have forgotten the comment that started this little stoush, and which the now apparently calm and sane SATP would probably prefer remain forgotten.
For those of you who may have forgotten the comment that started this little stoush, and which the now apparently calm and sane SATP would probably prefer remain forgotten.
Adrian, I didn’t say that in this thread.
Nor is it the only time I have said it.
I have previously on this site stated an equal ambivalence toward ALL activist protestors. This has included (mentioned on this site) anti-globalisation vandals, anti-Vietnam war protestors, G-20 rioters, (to name a few, I’m not trawling archives of this site for a comprehensive list) and also I have more than once advocated the death penalty for drug users.
What on earth is “better forgotten” about a few of these getting themselves killed by misadventure? It is not as if the world is losing anybody useful.
Adrian, I didn’t say that in this thread.
Nor is it the only time I have said it.
I have previously on this site stated an equal ambivalence toward ALL activist protestors. This has included (mentioned on this site) anti-globalisation vandals, anti-Vietnam war protestors, G-20 rioters, (to name a few, I’m not trawling archives of this site for a comprehensive list) and also I have more than once advocated the death penalty for drug users.
What on earth is “better forgotten” about a few of these getting themselves killed by misadventure? It is not as if the world is losing anybody useful.
SATP @ 280: “Adrian, I didn’t say that in this thread.”
Disingenuous, Steve. It was here , in the obvious precursor thread where this particular discussion topic started.
Apart from that:
“Calm and sane” didn’t last long, did it?
SATP @ 280: “Adrian, I didn’t say that in this thread.”
Disingenuous, Steve. It was here , in the obvious precursor thread where this particular discussion topic started.
Apart from that:
“Calm and sane” didn’t last long, did it?
Andy, Her descent from calmness & sanity is Sg’s problem, not my concern. I don’t care how long her calmness or sanity lasts/doesn’t last. No skin off my nose!
I more often than not can’t find a thread again even if I want to (apologies to anyone who has on occassion waited in vain for a response) Sometimes I can’t even remember which site or ID a thread was under.
Nor do I always retain the screen ID of someone I may have stoushed with. I have on occassion been blueing with someone on a thread, & agreeing with them on another thread on the same site, & not taken the time to notice it is the same person/ID. Carrying a discussion from one thread to another is bad etiquette I had thought, but am happy to change, just for you.
If you have a problem with a realistic aproach to protestors, as opposed to a “radical protestors are OK! (like yeah man)” approach, then tough luck!
Andy, Her descent from calmness & sanity is Sg’s problem, not my concern. I don’t care how long her calmness or sanity lasts/doesn’t last. No skin off my nose!
I more often than not can’t find a thread again even if I want to (apologies to anyone who has on occassion waited in vain for a response) Sometimes I can’t even remember which site or ID a thread was under.
Nor do I always retain the screen ID of someone I may have stoushed with. I have on occassion been blueing with someone on a thread, & agreeing with them on another thread on the same site, & not taken the time to notice it is the same person/ID. Carrying a discussion from one thread to another is bad etiquette I had thought, but am happy to change, just for you.
If you have a problem with a realistic aproach to protestors, as opposed to a “radical protestors are OK! (like yeah man)” approach, then tough luck!
SATP – you seem to have missed my question from earlier. If you don’t wish to answer it, can you at least explain why?
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/06/01/gaza-aid-flotilla-attack/#comment-886012
SATP – you seem to have missed my question from earlier. If you don’t wish to answer it, can you at least explain why?
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/06/01/gaza-aid-flotilla-attack/#comment-886012
Oops, Sorry FDB. Answer was the first line of my next posted comment.
It is a slow night (so far) so perhaps I can expand a little if you wish.
Oops, Sorry FDB. Answer was the first line of my next posted comment.
It is a slow night (so far) so perhaps I can expand a little if you wish.
If you welcome or advocate the deaths of others when you are merely “ambivalent” what do you do when you are absolutely certain SATP, and does it involve potroasts?
If you welcome or advocate the deaths of others when you are merely “ambivalent” what do you do when you are absolutely certain SATP, and does it involve potroasts?
Nope! My diet is free of long pig.
Nope! My diet is free of long pig.
Yeah, I was hoping for some answer to the expanded version of my question, not just the “what’s your take?” bit.
Would you really be so approving of other countries doing this? Ones whose foreign/domestic agenda you have serious problems with [if Indo won't suffice as an example]?
Yeah, I was hoping for some answer to the expanded version of my question, not just the “what’s your take?” bit.
Would you really be so approving of other countries doing this? Ones whose foreign/domestic agenda you have serious problems with [if Indo won't suffice as an example]?
While SATP doesn’t seem to be going to answer FDB I suspect an authoritarian would approve of Indonesia doing this. Authority is to be respected not questioned. You see this in what is really disapproval rather than ‘ambivalence toward ALL activist protestors’ – you just can’t allow people to question authority (it is after a fragile flower)
It would be different of the aggressors were people they’d been told by a higher authority to disapprove of eg Saddam. But in these cases the actions would just be opportunities or excuses to criticise, not reasons.
While SATP doesn’t seem to be going to answer FDB I suspect an authoritarian would approve of Indonesia doing this. Authority is to be respected not questioned. You see this in what is really disapproval rather than ‘ambivalence toward ALL activist protestors’ – you just can’t allow people to question authority (it is after a fragile flower)
It would be different of the aggressors were people they’d been told by a higher authority to disapprove of eg Saddam. But in these cases the actions would just be opportunities or excuses to criticise, not reasons.
FDB, if you mean do I approve of countries enacting blockades? Not something I have ever thought about. Not an area of semantics I am prone to wallowing into.
Do I approve of blockade runners? Of course, I am a former avid consumer of Boy’s Own Annuals full of such stories.
Do I approve of “soft-hands” middle class types going along more or less as supernumerary reality tourists on blockade running missions? Not on your nelly. That sort of stuff is best left to a harder class of people, who know what they are getting into & are psycologically able to cope.
FDB, if you mean do I approve of countries enacting blockades? Not something I have ever thought about. Not an area of semantics I am prone to wallowing into.
Do I approve of blockade runners? Of course, I am a former avid consumer of Boy’s Own Annuals full of such stories.
Do I approve of “soft-hands” middle class types going along more or less as supernumerary reality tourists on blockade running missions? Not on your nelly. That sort of stuff is best left to a harder class of people, who know what they are getting into & are psycologically able to cope.
So SATP, you really do think it’s okay to kill protestors because that’s a ‘realistic approach’.
Absolutely disgusting.
So SATP, you really do think it’s okay to kill protestors because that’s a ‘realistic approach’.
Absolutely disgusting.
oh and your little back-peddle of ,’ “oh, I can’t remember different threads”, when sg called you out on it.
Weak as.
oh and your little back-peddle of ,’ “oh, I can’t remember different threads”, when sg called you out on it.
Weak as.
You are disgusted Fine? That’s a sign I’m on the right track.
You are disgusted Fine? That’s a sign I’m on the right track.
“Nor is it the only time I have said it.
I have previously on this site stated an equal ambivalence toward ALL activist protestors. This has included (mentioned on this site) anti-globalisation vandals, anti-Vietnam war protestors, G-20 rioters,…”
What?! No Tea Partiers, EDL or German No-Nazi’s to add to this condemn list.
Goodness SATP, youre examples are verging on the ideological, something I know the Right never engages in (“just the facts please, ma’am”…
“Nor is it the only time I have said it.
I have previously on this site stated an equal ambivalence toward ALL activist protestors. This has included (mentioned on this site) anti-globalisation vandals, anti-Vietnam war protestors, G-20 rioters,…”
What?! No Tea Partiers, EDL or German No-Nazi’s to add to this condemn list.
Goodness SATP, youre examples are verging on the ideological, something I know the Right never engages in (“just the facts please, ma’am”…
Sublime said:
I can’t see that it does. Watching protesters give the IDF just a small taste of what they dish out, this time in genuine self-defence, is something I find a little encouraging. I hate watching protesters getting bullied.
I don’t see how this makes it difficult for NGOs. Israel is a special case. It might actually give the NGOs some cred, though in this case I don’t see that they are strongly connected with one.
Sublime said:
I can’t see that it does. Watching protesters give the IDF just a small taste of what they dish out, this time in genuine self-defence, is something I find a little encouraging. I hate watching protesters getting bullied.
I don’t see how this makes it difficult for NGOs. Israel is a special case. It might actually give the NGOs some cred, though in this case I don’t see that they are strongly connected with one.
“Its just that images of a mob pummelling soldiers does the cause of “peace” much good in the long term, and potentially makes it a whole lot harder for all future aid and ngo staff in other political hot spots.”
Pummel away, I say.
“Peace”?
How about victory?
Victory to the Palestinians!
“Its just that images of a mob pummelling soldiers does the cause of “peace” much good in the long term, and potentially makes it a whole lot harder for all future aid and ngo staff in other political hot spots.”
Pummel away, I say.
“Peace”?
How about victory?
Victory to the Palestinians!
What a shame this important thread has ended up with LP people, usually a bright lot, stooping to swap banalities with Screwloose Steve.
This clown has made this thread about himself and pulled everyone down to his level.
What a shame this important thread has ended up with LP people, usually a bright lot, stooping to swap banalities with Screwloose Steve.
This clown has made this thread about himself and pulled everyone down to his level.
I take it as a ‘yes’, then. Gees, if you really like the idea of killing people so much, that’s your problem.
But it’s really only lefty protestors you’d like to see killed isn’t it?
I take it as a ‘yes’, then. Gees, if you really like the idea of killing people so much, that’s your problem.
But it’s really only lefty protestors you’d like to see killed isn’t it?
Actually David G, that’s a damn good point. The guy is a rightard troll and should be ignored or even …no, I can’t say it, the liberal howls of outrage would be too much to bear…
Actually David G, that’s a damn good point. The guy is a rightard troll and should be ignored or even …no, I can’t say it, the liberal howls of outrage would be too much to bear…
Ah, No David G. Some nutters have made the thread an attack of me. Phooey to them.
Chav, grow up. Y’ll nvr hv chrctr wrth jrkng thmb t, bt t lst tr t ct yr g nc n whl.
Ah, No David G. Some nutters have made the thread an attack of me. Phooey to them.
Chav, grow up. Y’ll nvr hv chrctr wrth jrkng thmb t, bt t lst tr t ct yr g nc n whl.
You’re right DavidG. Dealing with him is unedifying in the extreme.
You’re right DavidG. Dealing with him is unedifying in the extreme.
It was your choice Fine. Most people don’t like being done like a dinner. Clearly your’re no exception. Fr n dfyng dscssn mr t yr ntllctl lvl y cld tr th n wh mdlld fr y grvtr.
It was your choice Fine. Most people don’t like being done like a dinner. Clearly your’re no exception. Fr n dfyng dscssn mr t yr ntllctl lvl y cld tr th n wh mdlld fr y grvtr.
SATP is the new dagget.
SATP is the new dagget.
Really:
No, it’s a statement of despair.
Tigtog: my apologies.
TSSK:
Don’t think I regard what is now inevitable with anything but horror, for you are right. But it just does not matter if 95% of everyone there is good, so long as unhinged zealots are running the show.
And they are, so this outcome is inevitable. The only options are an early war (within a couple of years, with maybe only a dozen or two dozen nuclear strikes, or a later war, with many more. The choices are ‘horrible’ or ‘even more horrible’
That’s why I am in some despair over this. If this astonishing Islamist victory destroys the target, the Turkish-Israeli alliance, then the last major regional strategic safety structure is destroyed. The Islamists have already forced Egypt to cancel its own blockade of Gaze. Hamas and the mullahs of Tehran are doubtless delighted and long range rockets are doubtless already pouring over that border.
If Turkey bails on its alliance with Israel, then there is nothing whatsoever to check either Hezbollah/Hamas, or Netanyahu.
That means war.
That’s why I am appalled at the short-sighted cheering of the reactionaries, and by the short-sighted cheering of some progressives, and by the uncritical way the media swallows every piece of Islamist and Israeli propaganda and refuses to analyse and critique either.
Have to run, the landlord returneth and wants his computer back.
Really:
No, it’s a statement of despair.
Tigtog: my apologies.
TSSK:
Don’t think I regard what is now inevitable with anything but horror, for you are right. But it just does not matter if 95% of everyone there is good, so long as unhinged zealots are running the show.
And they are, so this outcome is inevitable. The only options are an early war (within a couple of years, with maybe only a dozen or two dozen nuclear strikes, or a later war, with many more. The choices are ‘horrible’ or ‘even more horrible’
That’s why I am in some despair over this. If this astonishing Islamist victory destroys the target, the Turkish-Israeli alliance, then the last major regional strategic safety structure is destroyed. The Islamists have already forced Egypt to cancel its own blockade of Gaze. Hamas and the mullahs of Tehran are doubtless delighted and long range rockets are doubtless already pouring over that border.
If Turkey bails on its alliance with Israel, then there is nothing whatsoever to check either Hezbollah/Hamas, or Netanyahu.
That means war.
That’s why I am appalled at the short-sighted cheering of the reactionaries, and by the short-sighted cheering of some progressives, and by the uncritical way the media swallows every piece of Islamist and Israeli propaganda and refuses to analyse and critique either.
Have to run, the landlord returneth and wants his computer back.
Hang on SATP…were the ships full of IDF bashing thugs or soft-hands middle class types who were easy fodder?
Should they have been manned by harder people to put up more of a resistance or should they have immediately surrendered?
I’m confused.
Hang on SATP…were the ships full of IDF bashing thugs or soft-hands middle class types who were easy fodder?
Should they have been manned by harder people to put up more of a resistance or should they have immediately surrendered?
I’m confused.
this thread is really begging for an ascii Cpt. Pickard but I suspect the mods might not appreciate any further attempts to take this thread any further into /b/ like territory.
this thread is really begging for an ascii Cpt. Pickard but I suspect the mods might not appreciate any further attempts to take this thread any further into /b/ like territory.
Turkey is now suggesting that it will only normalise ties with Israel if the blockade of Gaza is lifted.
Turkey is now suggesting that it will only normalise ties with Israel if the blockade of Gaza is lifted.
I’ve got what I came for from SATP. Given that the banner on this blog is an image of activists and lots of people here support the goals of the peace activists and other people SATP thinks would be better off dead, I’m kind of interested as to why he bothers coming here. I suppose Queensland pub life must be very boring…
I’ve got what I came for from SATP. Given that the banner on this blog is an image of activists and lots of people here support the goals of the peace activists and other people SATP thinks would be better off dead, I’m kind of interested as to why he bothers coming here. I suppose Queensland pub life must be very boring…
That video showing protesters shoving a soldier overboard, I believe it is fake. If it were true, why isn’t aussie traitor Mark Feinberg Regev trumpeting it all over the media?
Israel has form on the faking of videos. Just last week it was circulating a video purportedly showing Gazans living it up in one of their fancy restaurants. However, Mohammed Abbas was shown at that restaurant, and he has never been to Gaza.
That video showing protesters shoving a soldier overboard, I believe it is fake. If it were true, why isn’t aussie traitor Mark Feinberg Regev trumpeting it all over the media?
Israel has form on the faking of videos. Just last week it was circulating a video purportedly showing Gazans living it up in one of their fancy restaurants. However, Mohammed Abbas was shown at that restaurant, and he has never been to Gaza.
Form indeed silkworm.
It seems to be official policy of the Israeli GPO to say anything in the first few days of any scandal.
The Golden Rule is denial – no matter how ridiculous, improbable, tenuous, or just plain straight out false.
Form indeed silkworm.
It seems to be official policy of the Israeli GPO to say anything in the first few days of any scandal.
The Golden Rule is denial – no matter how ridiculous, improbable, tenuous, or just plain straight out false.
Footage now being released, through the Jerusalem Post:
Footage from before the Israelis boarded the ship. Stun grenade dropped on boat. It must have been really uncomfortable approaching this ship. They were ready for the Israelis.
Transcript of first soldier dropped on ship, clearly terrified:
- I need reinforcements here with me
- He wants to pass underneath
- Wait, one is in front of me
- It’s coming from all directions
- We need to be evacuated, now
- Tell him that he’s close already-
- Real weapons, real weapons (ie.guns)
- They have real weapons?
- Yes, yes, real weapons
- They are firing on us
- There is live fire below
- Live fire below
- Live fire here
- Shoot him where is he?
- Negative
Footage now being released, through the Jerusalem Post:
Footage from before the Israelis boarded the ship. Stun grenade dropped on boat. It must have been really uncomfortable approaching this ship. They were ready for the Israelis.
Transcript of first soldier dropped on ship, clearly terrified:
- I need reinforcements here with me
- He wants to pass underneath
- Wait, one is in front of me
- It’s coming from all directions
- We need to be evacuated, now
- Tell him that he’s close already-
- Real weapons, real weapons (ie.guns)
- They have real weapons?
- Yes, yes, real weapons
- They are firing on us
- There is live fire below
- Live fire below
- Live fire here
- Shoot him where is he?
- Negative
OK there were supposed to be vids with that transcript, but you can view them here if you’re interested: http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177261
Silkworm the vids are not faked. They are clear evidence of organised opposition to the Israeli take over of the ship. You’ll have to take that, regardless of your personal views on Israel.
It is now a case of whether armed resistance is acceptable on a ship flying a white flag, as well as the question of whether unduly heavy force was exerted by the Israelis. The deaths of any people, whether they’re in the right or wrong, are highly regrettable.
There will need to be a thorough investigation, but now who is not tainted by prejudice one way or another? Even the UN Sec Gen seems to have jumped the gun with his official opinion somewhat.
OK there were supposed to be vids with that transcript, but you can view them here if you’re interested: http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177261
Silkworm the vids are not faked. They are clear evidence of organised opposition to the Israeli take over of the ship. You’ll have to take that, regardless of your personal views on Israel.
It is now a case of whether armed resistance is acceptable on a ship flying a white flag, as well as the question of whether unduly heavy force was exerted by the Israelis. The deaths of any people, whether they’re in the right or wrong, are highly regrettable.
There will need to be a thorough investigation, but now who is not tainted by prejudice one way or another? Even the UN Sec Gen seems to have jumped the gun with his official opinion somewhat.
Facelift,
I don’t there is much doubt of opposition to the Israeli boarding. And not much doubt that they were well within their rights to object to such an event and to attempt to prevent it.
What Israeli commando’s were doing trying to takeover a Turkish ship in international waters is another matter.
Also interesting is how often the weasal word ‘regrettable’ is deployed by way of explanation for the latest Israeli excesses.
Facelift,
I don’t there is much doubt of opposition to the Israeli boarding. And not much doubt that they were well within their rights to object to such an event and to attempt to prevent it.
What Israeli commando’s were doing trying to takeover a Turkish ship in international waters is another matter.
Also interesting is how often the weasal word ‘regrettable’ is deployed by way of explanation for the latest Israeli excesses.
I just can’t believe that an IDF soldier could be overpowered and thrown overboard, just as I can’t believe that an IDF soldier could be overpowered and have his pistol or machinegun taken off him. That’s why I think the video is fake. In any event it will all come out in the wash; and as Michael has just said, the protesters were well within their rights to resist the takeover of the ship by pirates however futile that attempt may have been.
I just can’t believe that an IDF soldier could be overpowered and thrown overboard, just as I can’t believe that an IDF soldier could be overpowered and have his pistol or machinegun taken off him. That’s why I think the video is fake. In any event it will all come out in the wash; and as Michael has just said, the protesters were well within their rights to resist the takeover of the ship by pirates however futile that attempt may have been.
Well, I dunno if you “I’m reserving my judgement for now” heads are interested in extremist shit like ‘the law’, or anything: but normally the ones who killed 19 people have to prove it was self-defence.
Until then its pretty assumed to be unlawful homicide, and the perps are generally taken into custody.
Get outa that with yer “I’m so objective cos I wouldn’t be leaping to conclusions etc” shite.
Well, I dunno if you “I’m reserving my judgement for now” heads are interested in extremist shit like ‘the law’, or anything: but normally the ones who killed 19 people have to prove it was self-defence.
Until then its pretty assumed to be unlawful homicide, and the perps are generally taken into custody.
Get outa that with yer “I’m so objective cos I wouldn’t be leaping to conclusions etc” shite.
#317: “also interesting is how often the weasel word ‘regrettable’ is deployed…”
Lawd, this sort of thing is tiresome and stupid. Newsflash, chimpo: some folks don’t agree with your whole POV but still are troubled that people lost their lives, probably needlessly, in this, yes, “regrettable” incident. Not only troubled by the intrinsic loss of life, which is bad enough, but also for the escalation it foreshadows, which if the past is a guide may well involve further loss of life.
Now back to your dogfood bowl. I hear they have a new flavor of Idiot Chow for you to slobber on. Yum yum.
#317: “also interesting is how often the weasel word ‘regrettable’ is deployed…”
Lawd, this sort of thing is tiresome and stupid. Newsflash, chimpo: some folks don’t agree with your whole POV but still are troubled that people lost their lives, probably needlessly, in this, yes, “regrettable” incident. Not only troubled by the intrinsic loss of life, which is bad enough, but also for the escalation it foreshadows, which if the past is a guide may well involve further loss of life.
Now back to your dogfood bowl. I hear they have a new flavor of Idiot Chow for you to slobber on. Yum yum.
That seems a pretty uncalled for overreaction with triple abuse for this insomniacs eyes, j_p_z@320
The guy is just drawing attention to the callous, cold, language of p.r. Israeli style. Nothing wrong with that; just as someone else might point to some hysterical rambling from their sworn enemy and call them on it.
For the Australian context see these books by Don Watson. We little Aussie doggies are all on guard for Weasal Words because Don is a local hero…
http://www.weaselwords.com.au/books.htm
That seems a pretty uncalled for overreaction with triple abuse for this insomniacs eyes, j_p_z@320
The guy is just drawing attention to the callous, cold, language of p.r. Israeli style. Nothing wrong with that; just as someone else might point to some hysterical rambling from their sworn enemy and call them on it.
For the Australian context see these books by Don Watson. We little Aussie doggies are all on guard for Weasal Words because Don is a local hero…
http://www.weaselwords.com.au/books.htm
http://www.smh.com.au/world/i-was-tasered-by-israelis-says-herald-photographer-20100602-wzv3.html
http://www.smh.com.au/world/i-was-tasered-by-israelis-says-herald-photographer-20100602-wzv3.html
Since all evidence captured on camera by Geraghty has been confiscated, and the Israelis have been once again caught out lying profusely, one must dismiss out of hand anything claimed by the Israelis in defense of their actions.
Since all evidence captured on camera by Geraghty has been confiscated, and the Israelis have been once again caught out lying profusely, one must dismiss out of hand anything claimed by the Israelis in defense of their actions.
i’m no apologist for Israel, i think they are a violent and arrogant country.
I am interested in how the story unfolds, and the connotations projected onto all parties.
Fran as i understand it, the Flotilla was comprised of a number of aid groups and activists united in a shared belief against the gaza blockade. The IHH which is being bandied around as a ‘terrorist’ organisation by the israelis seemed to be constituted as a muslim humanitarian aid group.
One niggling concern i have which i havent seen addressed is why infants were aboard a ship with the express aims of breaching a (legal or not) millitary blockade. Seems irresponsible at best.
i’m no apologist for Israel, i think they are a violent and arrogant country.
I am interested in how the story unfolds, and the connotations projected onto all parties.
Fran as i understand it, the Flotilla was comprised of a number of aid groups and activists united in a shared belief against the gaza blockade. The IHH which is being bandied around as a ‘terrorist’ organisation by the israelis seemed to be constituted as a muslim humanitarian aid group.
One niggling concern i have which i havent seen addressed is why infants were aboard a ship with the express aims of breaching a (legal or not) millitary blockade. Seems irresponsible at best.
Since any evidence captured on camera by Geraghty and any others would be, from the Israelis’ perspective, evidence from a crime scene (as well as being valuable for intelligence purposes), you’d expect that they’d confiscate it so that they can examine it. The questions are will they release it, if so when and how much of it will they release.
Though if you’ve got a closed mind like Zorronsky’s it doesn’t matter what they do.
Since any evidence captured on camera by Geraghty and any others would be, from the Israelis’ perspective, evidence from a crime scene (as well as being valuable for intelligence purposes), you’d expect that they’d confiscate it so that they can examine it. The questions are will they release it, if so when and how much of it will they release.
Though if you’ve got a closed mind like Zorronsky’s it doesn’t matter what they do.
and what crime scene would that be, GregM? Their illegal attack on foreign ships in international waters? Given that they aren’t going to investigate their own soldiers and have already concluded they did a great job, seems like they don’t need the evidence.
The Herald notes that the Israeli Govt received a letter before the flotilla sailed, telling them that two journalists were on board and asking for them to be treated as press, but ignored the letter, “attacked” Geraghty, tasered her, denied her medical treatment and then lied to the lawyer who came to find them, as well as denying them consular assistance. How many international laws and basic laws of decent behaviour have they broken there?
All this when the ship they were on was fleeing the battle.
Or perhaps you think McGeough and Geraghty were terrorists?
and what crime scene would that be, GregM? Their illegal attack on foreign ships in international waters? Given that they aren’t going to investigate their own soldiers and have already concluded they did a great job, seems like they don’t need the evidence.
The Herald notes that the Israeli Govt received a letter before the flotilla sailed, telling them that two journalists were on board and asking for them to be treated as press, but ignored the letter, “attacked” Geraghty, tasered her, denied her medical treatment and then lied to the lawyer who came to find them, as well as denying them consular assistance. How many international laws and basic laws of decent behaviour have they broken there?
All this when the ship they were on was fleeing the battle.
Or perhaps you think McGeough and Geraghty were terrorists?
That’s interesting Greg that you describe it as a crime scene, I’ll be waiting with bated breath for you to enlighten us all about who you see as the perps, or will you as usual discount evidence in favour of lies and spin.
That’s interesting Greg that you describe it as a crime scene, I’ll be waiting with bated breath for you to enlighten us all about who you see as the perps, or will you as usual discount evidence in favour of lies and spin.
j_p_Z@320:
Down boy.
There’s nothing ‘regrettable’ about the murder of 9 people.
It’s a crime and utter tragedy for their families.
j_p_Z@320:
Down boy.
There’s nothing ‘regrettable’ about the murder of 9 people.
It’s a crime and utter tragedy for their families.
In case anyone’s interested in how legal or otherwise the interception/boarding action was, I wish to point out the summary of the pro/con argument presented at Wikipedia.[1]
Gaza Flotilla Raid: Legal observations and opinions or
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla#Legal_observations_and_opinions
Article also summarises most other aspects of interest.
As for the rest, I’m sure something worthwhile will end up on wikileaks eventually.
[1] Yes, yes. Shock, horror. Once again I reference the wikipedia.
In case anyone’s interested in how legal or otherwise the interception/boarding action was, I wish to point out the summary of the pro/con argument presented at Wikipedia.[1]
Gaza Flotilla Raid: Legal observations and opinions or
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla#Legal_observations_and_opinions
Article also summarises most other aspects of interest.
As for the rest, I’m sure something worthwhile will end up on wikileaks eventually.
[1] Yes, yes. Shock, horror. Once again I reference the wikipedia.
I’m interested to hear alternative methods that Israel could have employed to enforce the blockade (not enforcing it was never be a serious option for the IDF).
I’m thinking physical block of Gaza port, in daylight, in full media view. Use Coast Guard &/or Customs officials to do the boarding. That way if violence broke out Israel would be able to claim the high ground (unarmed coast guard attacked by blah blah). If no opposition then pilot vessels to designated port. Have spec forces avail just in case but not actually use them for the initial boarding.
If Israel had tried something like this would we all be as upset?
I’m interested to hear alternative methods that Israel could have employed to enforce the blockade (not enforcing it was never be a serious option for the IDF).
I’m thinking physical block of Gaza port, in daylight, in full media view. Use Coast Guard &/or Customs officials to do the boarding. That way if violence broke out Israel would be able to claim the high ground (unarmed coast guard attacked by blah blah). If no opposition then pilot vessels to designated port. Have spec forces avail just in case but not actually use them for the initial boarding.
If Israel had tried something like this would we all be as upset?
“If Israel had tried something like this would we all be as upset?”
I wouldn’t.
Some, and I’m one, think this action was wrong, regardless of the political environment in which it was conducted, and believe that any improvement which achieved Israel’s aims (even if I disagree with the blockade) without loss of life would have been infinitely better.
“If Israel had tried something like this would we all be as upset?”
I wouldn’t.
Some, and I’m one, think this action was wrong, regardless of the political environment in which it was conducted, and believe that any improvement which achieved Israel’s aims (even if I disagree with the blockade) without loss of life would have been infinitely better.
FDB @ 331 – aren’t there more boats on the way now? Is it going to be like a groundhog day movie for Israel?
From the smh news report at least on their boat the Israelis went in very aggressively albeit initially with non lethal weapons (stun grenades, tasers and paintball guns). I wonder if paintball guns have ever been used in that sort of situation before by police/army forces? The paintballs would hurt, but unlike a taser which disables I would have thought thats just as likely to provoke a violent reaction than subdue someone.
FDB @ 331 – aren’t there more boats on the way now? Is it going to be like a groundhog day movie for Israel?
From the smh news report at least on their boat the Israelis went in very aggressively albeit initially with non lethal weapons (stun grenades, tasers and paintball guns). I wonder if paintball guns have ever been used in that sort of situation before by police/army forces? The paintballs would hurt, but unlike a taser which disables I would have thought thats just as likely to provoke a violent reaction than subdue someone.
The 1964 Freedom Riders broke laws everywhere they went in the Segregationist South.
Legalism is a mere sham when those laws are evil, or breach tenets of natural justice, or are administered brutally.
The outcome of this struggle will not be determined in any court of law, either national or international, but in the court of public opinion as expressed in political fora, both national and international.
It should not be a surprise to anyone that the most important forum is the US Congress.
However, if the EC acts resolutely, it too can have some impact both diplomatically and via embargoes.
The 1964 Freedom Riders broke laws everywhere they went in the Segregationist South.
Legalism is a mere sham when those laws are evil, or breach tenets of natural justice, or are administered brutally.
The outcome of this struggle will not be determined in any court of law, either national or international, but in the court of public opinion as expressed in political fora, both national and international.
It should not be a surprise to anyone that the most important forum is the US Congress.
However, if the EC acts resolutely, it too can have some impact both diplomatically and via embargoes.
I should also add that the Knesset is an important forum. Intelligent and morally aware Israeli citizens have a democratic right to remove this current ham-fisted, pig-ignorant, boorish regime.
I should also add that the Knesset is an important forum. Intelligent and morally aware Israeli citizens have a democratic right to remove this current ham-fisted, pig-ignorant, boorish regime.
For Chris @332:
At least one company makes pepper-spray projectile launchers that look (and probably are essentially) paint-ball markers:
Custom Carbine SX – TX Spec Sheet (pdf, 1MB).
Use of this or similar devices by US law enforcement as far back as at least 2004 – (New York Times).
Probably before that too.
For Chris @332:
At least one company makes pepper-spray projectile launchers that look (and probably are essentially) paint-ball markers:
Custom Carbine SX – TX Spec Sheet (pdf, 1MB).
Use of this or similar devices by US law enforcement as far back as at least 2004 – (New York Times).
Probably before that too.
I presume Rudd has called in the Israeli Ambassador and sent him packing for Israels unprovoked taser attack on an unarmed Australian journalist?
Of course not!
I presume Rudd has called in the Israeli Ambassador and sent him packing for Israels unprovoked taser attack on an unarmed Australian journalist?
Of course not!
Paul, Rudd dare not censure Israel because it might upset the Americans and, of less importance, it might upset the Jewish lobby which could lead to less political donations and bad press.
Australia’s reputation for upholding the ‘fair-go’ is in tatters. We have become just another one of America’s lapdogs, a pawn in its unstated ambition to control the world.
Paul, Rudd dare not censure Israel because it might upset the Americans and, of less importance, it might upset the Jewish lobby which could lead to less political donations and bad press.
Australia’s reputation for upholding the ‘fair-go’ is in tatters. We have become just another one of America’s lapdogs, a pawn in its unstated ambition to control the world.
Mr Eulenspiegel – thanks that makes more sense. They probably weren’t actually using paint then.
David G @ 337 said:
So nothings changed then…..
Mr Eulenspiegel – thanks that makes more sense. They probably weren’t actually using paint then.
David G @ 337 said:
So nothings changed then…..
I imagine that in the dead of night under those kinds of conditions, the first thing that pops into a civilian’s mind when they see a ninja rappelling onto their deck holding a long-barrelled gun is probably not, “oh whew! It’s a paintball gun! Even less harmless than a tazer!”
I’m pretty confident, though I’ve never been in the situation, that having never seen any form of military weaponry in my life, and having been skirmishing once many years ago, I would be very quick to assume that the person was carrying a real weapon, and that all subsequent judgements of what I should do would depend entirely on whether I thought the ninja was planning on using it immediately. Which, given they’d already fired on the ships and killed one person, probably wasn’t a difficult judgement to settle.
I imagine that in the dead of night under those kinds of conditions, the first thing that pops into a civilian’s mind when they see a ninja rappelling onto their deck holding a long-barrelled gun is probably not, “oh whew! It’s a paintball gun! Even less harmless than a tazer!”
I’m pretty confident, though I’ve never been in the situation, that having never seen any form of military weaponry in my life, and having been skirmishing once many years ago, I would be very quick to assume that the person was carrying a real weapon, and that all subsequent judgements of what I should do would depend entirely on whether I thought the ninja was planning on using it immediately. Which, given they’d already fired on the ships and killed one person, probably wasn’t a difficult judgement to settle.
The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs has a Flickr page, currently showing weapons (etc) that were allegedly seized from the Mavi Marmara.
The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs has a Flickr page, currently showing weapons (etc) that were allegedly seized from the Mavi Marmara.
I’m still harping on this business of the fake video. It purportedly shows a protester hurling an object at an Israeli soldier as he descends a rope from a helicopter. The video is made with infrared vision, and hot objects turn up black in the video. Mark Regev is using this footage to maintain that this object which appears black in the video is a molotov cocktail.
I think this video is not of the boarding of the Marmara but of a practice run that the Israelis carried out shortly before the real raid. The veracity of my claim can be tested against the testimony of eyewitnesses. That is why it is important for a truly independent commission to gather the testimony of the protesters to establish whether any objects were thrown at the soldiers as they descended onto the ship.
I would also point out that the helicopters used in the raid and the practice run(s) were US-supplied, and it is my understanding that the US has to be advised of all Israeli operations using US-supplied equipment. If this is the case, then the US would have been advised of the details of the raid and the practice run(s), including the fact that they were conducted at night. I believe that the peace flotilla had planned to enter Gaza territorial waters when the sun was up, which means that the Israelis, and by implication the US, knew that the flotilla had to be in international waters for the raid to be conducted in the dark. This means that the US knew in advance that the Israelis were going to commit an act of piracy, including murder on the high seas. What say you, Mr President?
I’m still harping on this business of the fake video. It purportedly shows a protester hurling an object at an Israeli soldier as he descends a rope from a helicopter. The video is made with infrared vision, and hot objects turn up black in the video. Mark Regev is using this footage to maintain that this object which appears black in the video is a molotov cocktail.
I think this video is not of the boarding of the Marmara but of a practice run that the Israelis carried out shortly before the real raid. The veracity of my claim can be tested against the testimony of eyewitnesses. That is why it is important for a truly independent commission to gather the testimony of the protesters to establish whether any objects were thrown at the soldiers as they descended onto the ship.
I would also point out that the helicopters used in the raid and the practice run(s) were US-supplied, and it is my understanding that the US has to be advised of all Israeli operations using US-supplied equipment. If this is the case, then the US would have been advised of the details of the raid and the practice run(s), including the fact that they were conducted at night. I believe that the peace flotilla had planned to enter Gaza territorial waters when the sun was up, which means that the Israelis, and by implication the US, knew that the flotilla had to be in international waters for the raid to be conducted in the dark. This means that the US knew in advance that the Israelis were going to commit an act of piracy, including murder on the high seas. What say you, Mr President?
sg @ 339 – I agree. Even if you can believe that Israel was just trying to stop the boats and did not intend to kill anyone, the way that they went about it seems appalling. Its like a weird mix of a military operation and a policing operation (which is what it should have been) which did neither well.
sg @ 339 – I agree. Even if you can believe that Israel was just trying to stop the boats and did not intend to kill anyone, the way that they went about it seems appalling. Its like a weird mix of a military operation and a policing operation (which is what it should have been) which did neither well.
Silkworm why would the IDF fake a video to show their elite commandos having the snot beaten out of them by Trots armed with Bunnings outdoor furniture?
Silkworm why would the IDF fake a video to show their elite commandos having the snot beaten out of them by Trots armed with Bunnings outdoor furniture?
silkworm, if they had to do practice runs to get to the current level of bodge up, that’s quite astounding…
silkworm, if they had to do practice runs to get to the current level of bodge up, that’s quite astounding…
Chris, Israel set out to show that it is the pre-eminent military power in the region and to demonstrate to the region and the world what will happen if anyone, but anyone challenges its power or its racist regime or the ‘laws’ which it sets up to ensure its domination.
Israel has carried out a number of atrocities all of which it finds excuses for. The gullible accept them while the rest of the world, who can see what is happening, just look away.
On my blog today, I have pictures of two people who lead governments that are responsible for the murder of the aid activists and many hundreds of thousands of other innocent people. Curious?
Cheers.
Chris, Israel set out to show that it is the pre-eminent military power in the region and to demonstrate to the region and the world what will happen if anyone, but anyone challenges its power or its racist regime or the ‘laws’ which it sets up to ensure its domination.
Israel has carried out a number of atrocities all of which it finds excuses for. The gullible accept them while the rest of the world, who can see what is happening, just look away.
On my blog today, I have pictures of two people who lead governments that are responsible for the murder of the aid activists and many hundreds of thousands of other innocent people. Curious?
Cheers.
While tangential to this discussion, I would like to suggest that non-lethal may not be the best description for taser weapons.
While tangential to this discussion, I would like to suggest that non-lethal may not be the best description for taser weapons.
Looks like they raided someone’s backyard shed.
Hammers of mass destruction?
Looks like they raided someone’s backyard shed.
Hammers of mass destruction?
“Israel set out to show that it is the pre-eminent military power in the region and to demonstrate to the region and the world what will happen if anyone, but anyone challenges its power or its racist regime or the ‘laws’ which it sets up to ensure its domination.”
Actually, I think it was entirely about keeping Yisrael Beiteinu and the other crazies that form the coalition government happy.
d
“Israel set out to show that it is the pre-eminent military power in the region and to demonstrate to the region and the world what will happen if anyone, but anyone challenges its power or its racist regime or the ‘laws’ which it sets up to ensure its domination.”
Actually, I think it was entirely about keeping Yisrael Beiteinu and the other crazies that form the coalition government happy.
d
Same reason for all Israel’s waaa-waaa-waaa about its citizens living in abject terror of Hamas rockets falling on them, even though the range of those rockets reaches only a miniscule portion of Israel and have killed less people in 10 years than die on Israel’s roads in one month. Inside every bully is a cry baby.
Silkworm: Your fake video theory is a bit out there, but perfectly plausible given Mossad’s track record of deception.
Same reason for all Israel’s waaa-waaa-waaa about its citizens living in abject terror of Hamas rockets falling on them, even though the range of those rockets reaches only a miniscule portion of Israel and have killed less people in 10 years than die on Israel’s roads in one month. Inside every bully is a cry baby.
Silkworm: Your fake video theory is a bit out there, but perfectly plausible given Mossad’s track record of deception.
David G @337: “Rudd dare not censure Israel because it might upset the Americans and, of less importance, it might upset the Jewish lobby which could lead to less political donations and bad press.”
1. If the Americans support this sort of thuggery by Israel, then they deserve to be upset. What are they going to do? Nuke us? Stop selling us obsolete-but-very-expensive second-hand military crap?
2. Governments here and in Washington need to acknowledge that world peace matters more than a few shekels’ worth of donations, and also that “Jewish lobby” does not necessarily mean the same as “mindless militarist Zionist thug lobby”. I would like to believe that a majority of Jews here, in the USA and in Israel do not support homicidal nutjobbery by Israel’s government and defence force. However, if so, they have a responsibility to speak out and drown the ritual whining from the extremists.
David G @337: “Rudd dare not censure Israel because it might upset the Americans and, of less importance, it might upset the Jewish lobby which could lead to less political donations and bad press.”
1. If the Americans support this sort of thuggery by Israel, then they deserve to be upset. What are they going to do? Nuke us? Stop selling us obsolete-but-very-expensive second-hand military crap?
2. Governments here and in Washington need to acknowledge that world peace matters more than a few shekels’ worth of donations, and also that “Jewish lobby” does not necessarily mean the same as “mindless militarist Zionist thug lobby”. I would like to believe that a majority of Jews here, in the USA and in Israel do not support homicidal nutjobbery by Israel’s government and defence force. However, if so, they have a responsibility to speak out and drown the ritual whining from the extremists.
Israli road accident deaths: 4.5 per month (1997 figures)
People killed by Rocket attacks from Gaza: 28 (2001 – present day)
That aside I can’t think why Israel would bother chucking such a sad over being rocketed/mortared a few thousand times a year, & having only a couple of dozen citizens randomly bumped off.
Upitty Israelis!
Israli road accident deaths: 4.5 per month (1997 figures)
People killed by Rocket attacks from Gaza: 28 (2001 – present day)
That aside I can’t think why Israel would bother chucking such a sad over being rocketed/mortared a few thousand times a year, & having only a couple of dozen citizens randomly bumped off.
Upitty Israelis!
The worst thing about the fake video hypothesis is that it doesn’t help the Israelis for people to think it authentic.
The worst thing about the fake video hypothesis is that it doesn’t help the Israelis for people to think it authentic.
I’m wondering if Derrick Bird, the late mass murderer in the UK, was forced to whack any of his victims because they sought to disarm him? Some may even have attempted to assault him with sticks or plastic chairs. I know Martin Bryant felt compelled to blow several people away on account of their threatening behaviour. Self defence, surely?
I’m wondering if Derrick Bird, the late mass murderer in the UK, was forced to whack any of his victims because they sought to disarm him? Some may even have attempted to assault him with sticks or plastic chairs. I know Martin Bryant felt compelled to blow several people away on account of their threatening behaviour. Self defence, surely?
Interestingly, according to the SMH photographer, who can probably recognise an Australian accent when she hears one, there were Australians among the IDF who stormed the ship. Presumably, if and when these Australians return home, they will be charged, at the very least with piracy, if not war crimes? I won’t hold my breath.
And btw, any soldier who attacks an unarmed woman, doesn’t deserve to belong to what should be a profession that upholds the highest standards of honour.
Interestingly, according to the SMH photographer, who can probably recognise an Australian accent when she hears one, there were Australians among the IDF who stormed the ship. Presumably, if and when these Australians return home, they will be charged, at the very least with piracy, if not war crimes? I won’t hold my breath.
And btw, any soldier who attacks an unarmed woman, doesn’t deserve to belong to what should be a profession that upholds the highest standards of honour.
also that crew off somalia who are reported today to have killed 5 pirates who were holding them captive. Those poor pirates, being bullied like that!
also that crew off somalia who are reported today to have killed 5 pirates who were holding them captive. Those poor pirates, being bullied like that!
Don’t know if he was actually forced to whack any of them Hal, perhaps he could have achieved his goals through use of non-lethal methods, but either way, the ratio of taxi journeys to gunshot fatalaties is still quite low. Nobody in that area will be jumpy about taxi drivers beckoning to them, or anything like that.
Don’t know if he was actually forced to whack any of them Hal, perhaps he could have achieved his goals through use of non-lethal methods, but either way, the ratio of taxi journeys to gunshot fatalaties is still quite low. Nobody in that area will be jumpy about taxi drivers beckoning to them, or anything like that.
The moral dimensions of this episode are no doubt fascinating to those folk who live thousands of miles from the action and who appear to be eager to inform the world of their particular moral stance, be it for or against the Flotilla or the Israeli regime.
Yet, extraordinary as it may seem, events will continue to unfold in the Eastern Mediterranean regardless of the moral cut and thrust of this thread. (That is unless many are prepared to put their money where their mouth is.)
Both groups of participants appear to be certain that right and God is on their side. There is no persuading either group of participants that they are in the wrong. Among the potential participants I think that the Israeli voting public is the most changeable. However, I think that it is true to say that even these folk are subject only to marginal change. Thus everything is locked and loaded for a trenchant stoush.
The major question that remains, therefore, is which side has adopted the more successful tactics and strategies in this confrontation.
It would appear that even commentators who are habitually favourable to the Israeli regime, for example, the Jerusalem Post, have concluded that Netanyahu et al., have committed an egregious error.
There interesting question that arises out of this is how the Israeli Right have got it so wrong. Could it be that they are blinded by the same racist contempt that doomed the Southern Segregationists and the South African Apartheid regimes to extinction?
The moral dimensions of this episode are no doubt fascinating to those folk who live thousands of miles from the action and who appear to be eager to inform the world of their particular moral stance, be it for or against the Flotilla or the Israeli regime.
Yet, extraordinary as it may seem, events will continue to unfold in the Eastern Mediterranean regardless of the moral cut and thrust of this thread. (That is unless many are prepared to put their money where their mouth is.)
Both groups of participants appear to be certain that right and God is on their side. There is no persuading either group of participants that they are in the wrong. Among the potential participants I think that the Israeli voting public is the most changeable. However, I think that it is true to say that even these folk are subject only to marginal change. Thus everything is locked and loaded for a trenchant stoush.
The major question that remains, therefore, is which side has adopted the more successful tactics and strategies in this confrontation.
It would appear that even commentators who are habitually favourable to the Israeli regime, for example, the Jerusalem Post, have concluded that Netanyahu et al., have committed an egregious error.
There interesting question that arises out of this is how the Israeli Right have got it so wrong. Could it be that they are blinded by the same racist contempt that doomed the Southern Segregationists and the South African Apartheid regimes to extinction?
Thanks for the wiki link Mr Eulenspiegel @329 which has all the links below it, including for:
What appears to be strongly arguable in law is
1) There was no imminent threat to Israel and ships were in international waters.
2)It was an act of war as Israel says they approve of their military’s conduct and therefore it would constitute a war crime (or alternatively a crime against humanity.)
3) If (2) is correct for illegality there is a right to self defence for the activists.
4)Even if the military action was lawful, proportionality in their conduct applies.
5)A defence of lawful blockade comes up against “Israel’s continuing blockade of the Gaza Strip, a measure that is depriving its population of food, fuel, and basic services, constitutes a form of collective punishment in violation of article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention.[Human Rights Watch]” and is therefore highly questionable (but noted that some aid is allowed through).
I think this is all largely academic as IMO there will not be much (if any) legal action taken by Turkey with much prospect of success. However, Turkey will bring this matter before NATO and here they have a lever: an attack on Turkish citizens by a non NATO state–eg a threat to pull out of NATO could put the cat among the pigeons and possibly result in causing Israel some additional grief (apart from already burning the existing relationship between Israel and Turkey). The US cannot ultimately afford to have Turkey off the “team” for a multitude of reasons.
Thanks for the wiki link Mr Eulenspiegel @329 which has all the links below it, including for:
What appears to be strongly arguable in law is
1) There was no imminent threat to Israel and ships were in international waters.
2)It was an act of war as Israel says they approve of their military’s conduct and therefore it would constitute a war crime (or alternatively a crime against humanity.)
3) If (2) is correct for illegality there is a right to self defence for the activists.
4)Even if the military action was lawful, proportionality in their conduct applies.
5)A defence of lawful blockade comes up against “Israel’s continuing blockade of the Gaza Strip, a measure that is depriving its population of food, fuel, and basic services, constitutes a form of collective punishment in violation of article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention.[Human Rights Watch]” and is therefore highly questionable (but noted that some aid is allowed through).
I think this is all largely academic as IMO there will not be much (if any) legal action taken by Turkey with much prospect of success. However, Turkey will bring this matter before NATO and here they have a lever: an attack on Turkish citizens by a non NATO state–eg a threat to pull out of NATO could put the cat among the pigeons and possibly result in causing Israel some additional grief (apart from already burning the existing relationship between Israel and Turkey). The US cannot ultimately afford to have Turkey off the “team” for a multitude of reasons.
The vessel in question, Mavi Marama is Comoros Flagged.
The vessel in question, Mavi Marama is Comoros Flagged.
I don’t have a perspective on it, sg. I’m quite happy to recognise that this is a dirty little war that has been going on since the foundation of the Jewish state and that both sides have acted in ugly ways throughout. I don’t take a partisan view of it. I am quite happy to accept that Hamas wants to lob missiles into Israel for whatever gain they think they can get from it, war crime though that is, but am equally happy to accept that there will be consequences for them from that. The way these two sides have acted towards each other over tha past sixty plus years doesn’t lead me to conclude that either has the high ground.
I’m just pointing out the way the Israelis would see it- which is a scene where their troops were assaulted while acting perfectly lawfully.
The people on the ships and their supporters would see it completely the other way round though.
The point I have made is that the Israelis would have a completely legitimate reason to seize the evidence but that what needs to be looked for is what they subsequently do with it.
However for people like Zorronsky and you it doesn’t matter what they do for they are EVIL and you will spin whatever they do around that self-evident premise.
It seems to have got you and quite a few others worked up into quite an irrational self righteous lather.
Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
I don’t have a perspective on it, sg. I’m quite happy to recognise that this is a dirty little war that has been going on since the foundation of the Jewish state and that both sides have acted in ugly ways throughout. I don’t take a partisan view of it. I am quite happy to accept that Hamas wants to lob missiles into Israel for whatever gain they think they can get from it, war crime though that is, but am equally happy to accept that there will be consequences for them from that. The way these two sides have acted towards each other over tha past sixty plus years doesn’t lead me to conclude that either has the high ground.
I’m just pointing out the way the Israelis would see it- which is a scene where their troops were assaulted while acting perfectly lawfully.
The people on the ships and their supporters would see it completely the other way round though.
The point I have made is that the Israelis would have a completely legitimate reason to seize the evidence but that what needs to be looked for is what they subsequently do with it.
However for people like Zorronsky and you it doesn’t matter what they do for they are EVIL and you will spin whatever they do around that self-evident premise.
It seems to have got you and quite a few others worked up into quite an irrational self righteous lather.
Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
You make some great points Katz.
You make some great points Katz.
Peter, if there are a multitude of reasons can you list eighteen of them (which, though quite a few, is not a multitude). If you can’t list eighteen then twelve will suffice- just as long as they’re not the same reason re-hashed.
Peter, if there are a multitude of reasons can you list eighteen of them (which, though quite a few, is not a multitude). If you can’t list eighteen then twelve will suffice- just as long as they’re not the same reason re-hashed.
@270: Apparently there’s a word for that kind of thing.
@270: Apparently there’s a word for that kind of thing.
SATP@351
I don’t know where you got the 4.5 per month road toll figure from. All the sources I’ve looked at show that over the last ten years road fatalities in Israel have averaged between 400 and 500 per annum – giving a monthly average of 33-42.
SATP@351
I don’t know where you got the 4.5 per month road toll figure from. All the sources I’ve looked at show that over the last ten years road fatalities in Israel have averaged between 400 and 500 per annum – giving a monthly average of 33-42.
While the word “multitude” selected on the fly, may irk a pedant, three or four compelling reasons may be sufficient to clinch PK’s case.
1. If the Turkish people were to turn more enthusiastically islamist than they are already, the nature of the Turkish polity would face crisis. The secularist military may crack down on the populace, with unpredictable, though probably dramatic, results for Turkish politics. Turkey could become another Pakistan.
2. If the islamists gain more control over Turkey than they do already, then Turkey’s membership of the NATO alliance will be in play, with unpredictable, though probably dramatic, results for the Alliance.
3. An Islamist Turkey would be a new and disturbing factor in the region. Remember that Turkey borders the Muslim regions of the old Soviet Union, Iraq, Iran and Syria.
4. Huge populations of Turks already reside in “Old Europe”. What influence may the triumph of Turkish islamism have upon those populations?
Against those potentialities, it must be remembered, is arrayed the enormous power of the Israel Lobby in the US.
Obama faces a tough, tough choice.
While the word “multitude” selected on the fly, may irk a pedant, three or four compelling reasons may be sufficient to clinch PK’s case.
1. If the Turkish people were to turn more enthusiastically islamist than they are already, the nature of the Turkish polity would face crisis. The secularist military may crack down on the populace, with unpredictable, though probably dramatic, results for Turkish politics. Turkey could become another Pakistan.
2. If the islamists gain more control over Turkey than they do already, then Turkey’s membership of the NATO alliance will be in play, with unpredictable, though probably dramatic, results for the Alliance.
3. An Islamist Turkey would be a new and disturbing factor in the region. Remember that Turkey borders the Muslim regions of the old Soviet Union, Iraq, Iran and Syria.
4. Huge populations of Turks already reside in “Old Europe”. What influence may the triumph of Turkish islamism have upon those populations?
Against those potentialities, it must be remembered, is arrayed the enormous power of the Israel Lobby in the US.
Obama faces a tough, tough choice.
Katz @357: “Both groups of participants appear to be certain that right and God is on their side. There is no persuading either group of participants that they are in the wrong. Among the potential participants I think that the Israeli voting public is the most changeable. However, I think that it is true to say that even these folk are subject only to marginal change. Thus everything is locked and loaded for a trenchant stoush.”
Katz @365: “Against those potentialities, it must be remembered, is arrayed the enormous power of the Israel Lobby in the US. Obama faces a tough, tough choice.”
It looks like a quasi-stable situation which has had the supporting chocks removed, and is now just waiting for some catalyst to tip everything off balance?
After WW2, I believe there were a few countries under colonian rule that were able to throw off their colonial masters, as a result of them being economically weakened from the war (despite being notionally economically stronger and more advanced).
Could something similar happen again?
Doesn’t Obama face a “tough choice” only in as much as the jewish diaspora will be aggrieved and withdraw their funding at the next election? Did they vote for him anyway? If the US electorate emphatically doesn’t want another ME war (even defacto by funding an Israeli war), and he hasn’t got the spare cash, then Obama’s choice isn’t all that tough, is it?
Isn’t the stability of Turkey a bigger issue than the feelings of the jewish diaspora, in the overall scheme of things? I’d be thinking that Israel is awfully close to snookering themselves.
Katz @357: “Both groups of participants appear to be certain that right and God is on their side. There is no persuading either group of participants that they are in the wrong. Among the potential participants I think that the Israeli voting public is the most changeable. However, I think that it is true to say that even these folk are subject only to marginal change. Thus everything is locked and loaded for a trenchant stoush.”
Katz @365: “Against those potentialities, it must be remembered, is arrayed the enormous power of the Israel Lobby in the US. Obama faces a tough, tough choice.”
It looks like a quasi-stable situation which has had the supporting chocks removed, and is now just waiting for some catalyst to tip everything off balance?
After WW2, I believe there were a few countries under colonian rule that were able to throw off their colonial masters, as a result of them being economically weakened from the war (despite being notionally economically stronger and more advanced).
Could something similar happen again?
Doesn’t Obama face a “tough choice” only in as much as the jewish diaspora will be aggrieved and withdraw their funding at the next election? Did they vote for him anyway? If the US electorate emphatically doesn’t want another ME war (even defacto by funding an Israeli war), and he hasn’t got the spare cash, then Obama’s choice isn’t all that tough, is it?
Isn’t the stability of Turkey a bigger issue than the feelings of the jewish diaspora, in the overall scheme of things? I’d be thinking that Israel is awfully close to snookering themselves.
All arguable points, Elise.
1. Israel lobby funding is important, but not vital, especially in the era of net politics.
2. Jews vote overwhelmingly Democrat. Their electoral weight is important in NY State and Florida. Both of these states are essential for a Democrat victory in 2012.
But.
3. The Israel question is one of those touchstone questions whose influence goes far beyond Jewish voters. A large part of the non-Jewish US electorate, especially evangelicals, are powerfully exercised by the Israel question. This identification of the US Right with Israel has grown more powerful since 9/11. Obama would likely face an electoral and media firestorm were he to be seen to be turning his back on Israel.
All arguable points, Elise.
1. Israel lobby funding is important, but not vital, especially in the era of net politics.
2. Jews vote overwhelmingly Democrat. Their electoral weight is important in NY State and Florida. Both of these states are essential for a Democrat victory in 2012.
But.
3. The Israel question is one of those touchstone questions whose influence goes far beyond Jewish voters. A large part of the non-Jewish US electorate, especially evangelicals, are powerfully exercised by the Israel question. This identification of the US Right with Israel has grown more powerful since 9/11. Obama would likely face an electoral and media firestorm were he to be seen to be turning his back on Israel.
Those dastardly Colonians! A pox on their tentacled, three-eyed hides. If it hadn’t been for the development of the sphynctronium laser, their evil rule would have continued for millenia!
Those dastardly Colonians! A pox on their tentacled, three-eyed hides. If it hadn’t been for the development of the sphynctronium laser, their evil rule would have continued for millenia!
Katz @367: “Obama would likely face an electoral and media firestorm were he to be seen to be turning his back on Israel.”
What about jawboning on about being concerned, but quietly refusing to open the taps?
Presumably the conservative right in those dastardly, betentacled, poxlike Colonian countries (thanks Tim) had similarly strong views about giving up their profitable enterprises in the colonies? It didn’t get them anywhere, in the end. Golden rule epic fail.
Katz @367: “Obama would likely face an electoral and media firestorm were he to be seen to be turning his back on Israel.”
What about jawboning on about being concerned, but quietly refusing to open the taps?
Presumably the conservative right in those dastardly, betentacled, poxlike Colonian countries (thanks Tim) had similarly strong views about giving up their profitable enterprises in the colonies? It didn’t get them anywhere, in the end. Golden rule epic fail.
Turkey seems to have scored a quick political/legal victory already:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/charges-against-activists-abandoned-after-turkey-delivers-ultimatum-1990080.html
Well said Katz @365 and in addition the word nitpicking could be a useful word along with pedantry.
Steve @ 359, a Turkish flag was shown on that boat so it’s not positively clear yet as many web sites I have seen say it was Turkish. In any event for an act of war with Turkish citizens involved (and on other boats definitely it seems Turkish registered) the registered “flag” of the Mavi Marama is less relevant (ie in relation to the Geneva Conventions on war/crimes against humanity which apply regardless to whatever “flag”.)
Turkey seems to have scored a quick political/legal victory already:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/charges-against-activists-abandoned-after-turkey-delivers-ultimatum-1990080.html
Well said Katz @365 and in addition the word nitpicking could be a useful word along with pedantry.
Steve @ 359, a Turkish flag was shown on that boat so it’s not positively clear yet as many web sites I have seen say it was Turkish. In any event for an act of war with Turkish citizens involved (and on other boats definitely it seems Turkish registered) the registered “flag” of the Mavi Marama is less relevant (ie in relation to the Geneva Conventions on war/crimes against humanity which apply regardless to whatever “flag”.)
Again, eminently arguable, Elise. But from my experience of US politics, very risky.
If the Swiftboaters could turn a genuine war hero like John Kerry into a coward and traitor in the mind of the public, just imagine what they can do to a black man whose name is “Hussein”.
Again, eminently arguable, Elise. But from my experience of US politics, very risky.
If the Swiftboaters could turn a genuine war hero like John Kerry into a coward and traitor in the mind of the public, just imagine what they can do to a black man whose name is “Hussein”.
A false flag operation then, Katz?
That would be a war crime though, wouldn’t it?
Not that you’d see anything wrong with that.
A false flag operation then, Katz?
That would be a war crime though, wouldn’t it?
Not that you’d see anything wrong with that.
“Intelligent and morally aware Israeli citizens have a democratic right to remove this current ham-fisted, pig-ignorant, boorish regime.”
You swine, Katz.
“Intelligent and morally aware Israeli citizens have a democratic right to remove this current ham-fisted, pig-ignorant, boorish regime.”
You swine, Katz.
Proof definitive of Katz’s complete detachment from reality.
If there is one thing contemptible about the Americans it is their willingness to shower unearned military decorations on the children of their privileged classes.
Kerry was a willing and lying beneficiary of this.
Pity the poor grunts who did the heavy lifting but got none of the recognition.
Through the swiftboaters they got their own back on the lying turd.
Proof definitive of Katz’s complete detachment from reality.
If there is one thing contemptible about the Americans it is their willingness to shower unearned military decorations on the children of their privileged classes.
Kerry was a willing and lying beneficiary of this.
Pity the poor grunts who did the heavy lifting but got none of the recognition.
Through the swiftboaters they got their own back on the lying turd.
This is something we need much more of.
British Jewish MP Sir Gerald Kaufman, speaking in the House last year.
This is something we need much more of.
British Jewish MP Sir Gerald Kaufman, speaking in the House last year.
GregM @374 A quick scan of Wikipedia on Kerry’s military service will explode your charming ‘lying turd’ calumny, but getting at the truth wasn’t the aim of the SWVT crowd and neither is it yours – which is of course thread derailment.
Katz’s point was that if swiftboating can make military service shirker Bush look like a war hero against decorated combat veteran Kerry, then anything is possible for lying turds with a rightwing agenda. People for whom trolling and thread derailment is standard operating procedure, in fact.
GregM @374 A quick scan of Wikipedia on Kerry’s military service will explode your charming ‘lying turd’ calumny, but getting at the truth wasn’t the aim of the SWVT crowd and neither is it yours – which is of course thread derailment.
Katz’s point was that if swiftboating can make military service shirker Bush look like a war hero against decorated combat veteran Kerry, then anything is possible for lying turds with a rightwing agenda. People for whom trolling and thread derailment is standard operating procedure, in fact.
Katz accusing me of pedantry?
The horror, the horror, the horror!
This from someone who resorts to the most facile casuistry whenever, and that is just about all the time, the speciousness of his arguments is exposed.
And who uses the word stipulate without having a clue what it means.
Katz accusing me of pedantry?
The horror, the horror, the horror!
This from someone who resorts to the most facile casuistry whenever, and that is just about all the time, the speciousness of his arguments is exposed.
And who uses the word stipulate without having a clue what it means.
Hal9000, Wikipedia is authority to you?
How sad.
You’ll have to learn how to do basic research.
Hal9000, Wikipedia is authority to you?
How sad.
You’ll have to learn how to do basic research.
Lawyers eh?
Gawd luv ‘em.
Lawyers eh?
Gawd luv ‘em.
So what’s your ‘authority’ righteous one, apart from a few demented blogs?
So what’s your ‘authority’ righteous one, apart from a few demented blogs?
– Katz
And quickly demonstrated by GregM – “Through the swiftboaters they got their own back on the lying turd.”
And wihout irony!
– Katz
And quickly demonstrated by GregM – “Through the swiftboaters they got their own back on the lying turd.”
And wihout irony!
adrian – wingnut troll #101 – demand your interlocutors do all manner of research but be coy about your own sources. Cf AGW denialism. The curious part is how much they’ve adopted the most bizarre and radical elements of Marxist postmodernism in their agitprop.
Remember, what we’re talking about here is the deployment of automatic weapons against people bringing basic humanitarian aid to the imprisoned and desperately poor. In the world of ordinary human beings, this is a criminal and dastardly act. In the world of the wingnut, the good samaritans are the criminals. The inconvenient need to be wiped from the face of the earth and from history.
Back on topic, however, it is interesting that Israel loves to have its cake and eat it too. When it comes to obligations as an occupying power, Israel is keen to deny sovereignty. When it comes to recognition of the status of the occupied, Israel is keen to assert sovereignty. No media outlet to my knowledge has questioned Israel’s assertion of territoriality of the waters off Gaza, and yet we are told that in withdrawing its colonies Israel has withdrawn from Gaza. So which is it? Having, or eating?
adrian – wingnut troll #101 – demand your interlocutors do all manner of research but be coy about your own sources. Cf AGW denialism. The curious part is how much they’ve adopted the most bizarre and radical elements of Marxist postmodernism in their agitprop.
Remember, what we’re talking about here is the deployment of automatic weapons against people bringing basic humanitarian aid to the imprisoned and desperately poor. In the world of ordinary human beings, this is a criminal and dastardly act. In the world of the wingnut, the good samaritans are the criminals. The inconvenient need to be wiped from the face of the earth and from history.
Back on topic, however, it is interesting that Israel loves to have its cake and eat it too. When it comes to obligations as an occupying power, Israel is keen to deny sovereignty. When it comes to recognition of the status of the occupied, Israel is keen to assert sovereignty. No media outlet to my knowledge has questioned Israel’s assertion of territoriality of the waters off Gaza, and yet we are told that in withdrawing its colonies Israel has withdrawn from Gaza. So which is it? Having, or eating?
We must be winning.
The Keyboard Kommando are attempting to defend the Swiftboaters now. I can understand their thinking. Who are easier to defend, Swiftboaters or Netanyahu?
No contest, really.
Thanks FDB, I feared no one had noticed. And I didn’t want to hog the limelight.
We must be winning.
The Keyboard Kommando are attempting to defend the Swiftboaters now. I can understand their thinking. Who are easier to defend, Swiftboaters or Netanyahu?
No contest, really.
Thanks FDB, I feared no one had noticed. And I didn’t want to hog the limelight.
Indeed Hal.
And there have been plenty comments along the line of – Israel left Gaza in 2005….
Indeed Hal.
And there have been plenty comments along the line of – Israel left Gaza in 2005….
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2010/06/20106312530449379.html
Turkey has demanded that Israel lift its blockade of Gaza, but Netanyahu is as belligerent as ever, saying:
“The same countries that are criticising us today should know that they would be targeted tomorrow.”
Israel is still detaining seven people – one Irishman, an Australian woman, and Italian woman, and four Palestinian Israelis.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2010/06/20106312530449379.html
Turkey has demanded that Israel lift its blockade of Gaza, but Netanyahu is as belligerent as ever, saying:
“The same countries that are criticising us today should know that they would be targeted tomorrow.”
Israel is still detaining seven people – one Irishman, an Australian woman, and Italian woman, and four Palestinian Israelis.
Well.
Having waded through (at last count) 384 comments, a few things seemed to have been missed, namely that;
– Israel is bordered by nations perpetually sworn to its destruction,
– Gaza and its occupants have often and continue to be willing agents in attempts to accomplish that goal,
– the blockade is therefore entirely warranted
– the flotilla sailing into that blockade knew exactly what it was sailing into, and knew exactly what to expect.
Now, a full investigation is needed into this incident, and Israel is recalcitrant in not complying with that requirement. But is anyone seriously suggesting that IDF personnel fired on flower-carrying hippie peace protestors for no reason? THAT seems incredibly unlikely.
Israel is not above criticism. But one cannot, as the Israeli PM said, support Israel’s right to exist in the abstract yet condemn every action taken to that end in practicality.
19 dead people is a tragedy. But those 19 people chose to suit up and sail into a blockade, exercising far more choice than a dead Israeli whose only decision was to unwittingly stand too close to a suicide bomber or a building targeted by terrorists.
Sometimes, in the situation Israel finds itself in, you have to take actions that may end in horrendous results.
John Kenneth Galbraith defined politics as “…the choice between the disastrous and the unpalatable”. The deaths on the flotilla are unpalatable. To put Israel and the IDF in a straitjacket which endangers that nation’s very existence would be disastrous. In this instance, and in this instance alone, I choose to err on the side of the former.
Well.
Having waded through (at last count) 384 comments, a few things seemed to have been missed, namely that;
– Israel is bordered by nations perpetually sworn to its destruction,
– Gaza and its occupants have often and continue to be willing agents in attempts to accomplish that goal,
– the blockade is therefore entirely warranted
– the flotilla sailing into that blockade knew exactly what it was sailing into, and knew exactly what to expect.
Now, a full investigation is needed into this incident, and Israel is recalcitrant in not complying with that requirement. But is anyone seriously suggesting that IDF personnel fired on flower-carrying hippie peace protestors for no reason? THAT seems incredibly unlikely.
Israel is not above criticism. But one cannot, as the Israeli PM said, support Israel’s right to exist in the abstract yet condemn every action taken to that end in practicality.
19 dead people is a tragedy. But those 19 people chose to suit up and sail into a blockade, exercising far more choice than a dead Israeli whose only decision was to unwittingly stand too close to a suicide bomber or a building targeted by terrorists.
Sometimes, in the situation Israel finds itself in, you have to take actions that may end in horrendous results.
John Kenneth Galbraith defined politics as “…the choice between the disastrous and the unpalatable”. The deaths on the flotilla are unpalatable. To put Israel and the IDF in a straitjacket which endangers that nation’s very existence would be disastrous. In this instance, and in this instance alone, I choose to err on the side of the former.
Just reading McGeough’s “despatch from…”, as an eyewitness to the storming of the boat he and many others were on when the Israelis attacked; SMH.
It is a disturbing insight into the butch Israeli/American Bruce Willis world of commandoes; of force and violence; cock rock gone feral. What’s really ugly about Israel, is that it’s us, right down to the same pretenses and pretentions of “higher” civilisation.
Some of the excuse making for it just doesn’t wash, with me. If the ship hadn’t been attacked, no one would have been hurt. And there was nothing even remotely near to a genuine reason, for the attack…
Just reading McGeough’s “despatch from…”, as an eyewitness to the storming of the boat he and many others were on when the Israelis attacked; SMH.
It is a disturbing insight into the butch Israeli/American Bruce Willis world of commandoes; of force and violence; cock rock gone feral. What’s really ugly about Israel, is that it’s us, right down to the same pretenses and pretentions of “higher” civilisation.
Some of the excuse making for it just doesn’t wash, with me. If the ship hadn’t been attacked, no one would have been hurt. And there was nothing even remotely near to a genuine reason, for the attack…
Israel is bordered by four nations (not counting Palestine which is not properly a nation).
Israel has diplomatic relations with two of those four nations.
Until this atrocity Israel had co-operative relations with the largest Muslim majority nation in the region — Turkey. Israel has burned this relationship.
That action is more disastrous than unpalatable.
More generally, the “existential threat” excuse is a defence for any action, including dropping a nuke anytime and anywhere. In other words, it is no excuse.
Israel is bordered by four nations (not counting Palestine which is not properly a nation).
Israel has diplomatic relations with two of those four nations.
Until this atrocity Israel had co-operative relations with the largest Muslim majority nation in the region — Turkey. Israel has burned this relationship.
That action is more disastrous than unpalatable.
More generally, the “existential threat” excuse is a defence for any action, including dropping a nuke anytime and anywhere. In other words, it is no excuse.
Well said, Katz!
When will the penny drop that the religiously deranged people who carried out the brutal Aid Convoy atrocity (and it seems they may have thrown the bodies of some of the people they killed overboard), would not think twice about nuking Iran?
America has created a monster, one that mirrors itself!
Well said, Katz!
When will the penny drop that the religiously deranged people who carried out the brutal Aid Convoy atrocity (and it seems they may have thrown the bodies of some of the people they killed overboard), would not think twice about nuking Iran?
America has created a monster, one that mirrors itself!
AndyC@375: Thanks for that link to Sir Gerald Kaufmann’s wonderful speech. Heartening also to note the many Hear, Hears among the listeners.
There are many other Jewish people like him around the world, who are equally proactive about challenging Israel’s behaviour. Jeff Halper and Uri Avnery in Israel come to mind. Another wonderful Israeli Australian, Avigail Abarbanel, has written extensively, and somewhat uniquely, about Israel from a psycho-therapuetic perspective. Worth a look.
http://web.me.com/hzelkahan/Tidings/Blog/Entries/2010/5/10_A_psychotherapist_looks_at_Israel.html
AndyC@375: Thanks for that link to Sir Gerald Kaufmann’s wonderful speech. Heartening also to note the many Hear, Hears among the listeners.
There are many other Jewish people like him around the world, who are equally proactive about challenging Israel’s behaviour. Jeff Halper and Uri Avnery in Israel come to mind. Another wonderful Israeli Australian, Avigail Abarbanel, has written extensively, and somewhat uniquely, about Israel from a psycho-therapuetic perspective. Worth a look.
http://web.me.com/hzelkahan/Tidings/Blog/Entries/2010/5/10_A_psychotherapist_looks_at_Israel.html
It might help if you did some research first Luke.
– Israel is bordered by nations perpetually sworn to its destruction,
Wrong. Jordan and Egypt recognise Israel.
– Gaza and its occupants have often and continue to be willing agents in attempts to accomplish that goal,– the blockade is therefore entirely warranted
It is estimated that the Israeilis admit roughly one-quarter of the food and medicines required by the civilian population of Gaza. This has nothing to do with weapons, and is a shitty piece of cruelty and unlawful collective punishment that must and should be condemned by anyone with a conscience. This is why they were seeking to deliver aid direct to Gaza – the break the blockade.
– the flotilla sailing into that blockade knew exactly what it was sailing into, and knew exactly what to expect.
They succeeded in demonstrating the brutality of the blockade. The IDF response was amateurish, brutal and illegal. If the Israeli govt consider the international laws governing international waters, respected by other nations for hundreds of years to be a ‘straitjacket’, then they are a rogue state.
It might help if you did some research first Luke.
– Israel is bordered by nations perpetually sworn to its destruction,
Wrong. Jordan and Egypt recognise Israel.
– Gaza and its occupants have often and continue to be willing agents in attempts to accomplish that goal,– the blockade is therefore entirely warranted
It is estimated that the Israeilis admit roughly one-quarter of the food and medicines required by the civilian population of Gaza. This has nothing to do with weapons, and is a shitty piece of cruelty and unlawful collective punishment that must and should be condemned by anyone with a conscience. This is why they were seeking to deliver aid direct to Gaza – the break the blockade.
– the flotilla sailing into that blockade knew exactly what it was sailing into, and knew exactly what to expect.
They succeeded in demonstrating the brutality of the blockade. The IDF response was amateurish, brutal and illegal. If the Israeli govt consider the international laws governing international waters, respected by other nations for hundreds of years to be a ‘straitjacket’, then they are a rogue state.
Yeah, like those naughty Lebanonese people that had their country deliberately destabilised by Israel just so that Israel could have a buffer zone between them & Syria. Structual realism FTL. Sorry Luke, that excuse is worn thin these days.
Marvel at the way Israel destroys any chance their neighbours have of political self determination and then act all shocked when those people then give their support to an anti-Israeli group. Iran loves it when they do too!
Israel created this monster, now they have to cope and deal with it. And yeah I know Iran has it’s sticky little fingers in all of this – you would too if you were them.
Turkey is the really interesting aspect of this issue – 10 year slide away from US orbit? Foreign policy for domestic consumption? Distract from the resurgent Kurds? Bid to enchance their regional political cred by picking on Israel? Aiming to be regional power broker with hope of containing Iran’s regional influence? All of the above?
Yeah, like those naughty Lebanonese people that had their country deliberately destabilised by Israel just so that Israel could have a buffer zone between them & Syria. Structual realism FTL. Sorry Luke, that excuse is worn thin these days.
Marvel at the way Israel destroys any chance their neighbours have of political self determination and then act all shocked when those people then give their support to an anti-Israeli group. Iran loves it when they do too!
Israel created this monster, now they have to cope and deal with it. And yeah I know Iran has it’s sticky little fingers in all of this – you would too if you were them.
Turkey is the really interesting aspect of this issue – 10 year slide away from US orbit? Foreign policy for domestic consumption? Distract from the resurgent Kurds? Bid to enchance their regional political cred by picking on Israel? Aiming to be regional power broker with hope of containing Iran’s regional influence? All of the above?
This came from an article called: Nothing to investigate. Don’t ever try to think! It is well worth reading.
http://www.desertpeace.wordpress.com
This came from an article called: Nothing to investigate. Don’t ever try to think! It is well worth reading.
http://www.desertpeace.wordpress.com
Hesitant to post this but I’ve had several people send it/refer to it. Pls watch this, would value opinions.
At 6:19ish, look at the left side of screen, shadow of the object on the wall at 6:22ish. Someones trying to tell me it’s a gun but I’m not familiar enough with weapons to be sure. Could be another camera maybe, or an audio rig/boom for the camera operator taking the footage.
Dis-info? The clip is an obvious edit job at very low res so questionable.
Hesitant to post this but I’ve had several people send it/refer to it. Pls watch this, would value opinions.
At 6:19ish, look at the left side of screen, shadow of the object on the wall at 6:22ish. Someones trying to tell me it’s a gun but I’m not familiar enough with weapons to be sure. Could be another camera maybe, or an audio rig/boom for the camera operator taking the footage.
Dis-info? The clip is an obvious edit job at very low res so questionable.
Did they ever retrieve the body of that soldier who was thrown overboard?
Did they ever retrieve the body of that soldier who was thrown overboard?
I think he survived Silkworm.
I think he survived Silkworm.
I sure hope the IDF disciplines that soldier who had his pistol stolen from him. I wonder whatever happened to that pistol. I bet those nasty protesters threw it overboard, just like they did that soldier.
I sure hope the IDF disciplines that soldier who had his pistol stolen from him. I wonder whatever happened to that pistol. I bet those nasty protesters threw it overboard, just like they did that soldier.
Silkworm that soldier was only thrown from the top deck to the one below, not into the sea.
Silkworm that soldier was only thrown from the top deck to the one below, not into the sea.
And yet the Israelis are claiming that he was thrown overboard. Another of their lies.
And yet the Israelis are claiming that he was thrown overboard. Another of their lies.
Ouch! That’s actually more serious than being dumped into the sea.
Ouch! That’s actually more serious than being dumped into the sea.
I like Luke’s comment, it’s a great example of wingnut activity. He declares he’s trawled through 384 comments, and points out a few things that have been missed, and then gives us
He’s at comment 386. At comment 385 we have a quote from a news reporter who witnessed the same thing, saying
So yes, actually, people who were there and saw it are seriously suggesting that what they saw actually happened.
No matter what you say or do, some people are determined not to actually pay attention to any of the actual facts of the case.
I like Luke’s comment, it’s a great example of wingnut activity. He declares he’s trawled through 384 comments, and points out a few things that have been missed, and then gives us
He’s at comment 386. At comment 385 we have a quote from a news reporter who witnessed the same thing, saying
So yes, actually, people who were there and saw it are seriously suggesting that what they saw actually happened.
No matter what you say or do, some people are determined not to actually pay attention to any of the actual facts of the case.
On the topic of Kerry’s swiftboating, his war record and the citations he got are online, and it’s pretty obvious that he did some fairly brave stuff to earn his medals.
However, his purple heart was earned for getting a piece of shrapnel in his arse after he put a hand grenade in a rice bin, as per orders.
To my mind, this makes him a) a klutz and b) a war criminal. Deliberately starving the population is a war crime.
Doesn’t make the swiftboaters any more correct or moral, though.
On the topic of Kerry’s swiftboating, his war record and the citations he got are online, and it’s pretty obvious that he did some fairly brave stuff to earn his medals.
However, his purple heart was earned for getting a piece of shrapnel in his arse after he put a hand grenade in a rice bin, as per orders.
To my mind, this makes him a) a klutz and b) a war criminal. Deliberately starving the population is a war crime.
Doesn’t make the swiftboaters any more correct or moral, though.
John Kerry was awarded Three Purple Hearts.
That aside, his attack by the Swiftboaters cannot be leave mud on him.
In a foxhole men become brothers. It is most unlike combat veterans to turn on one of their own. This crosses all lines of colour, political affiliation, social background, later criminal status etc.
The swiftboaters either were not combat veterans, or John Kerry’s perception of his war service record was at odds with the perceptions of those who served with him.
John Kerry was awarded Three Purple Hearts.
That aside, his attack by the Swiftboaters cannot be leave mud on him.
In a foxhole men become brothers. It is most unlike combat veterans to turn on one of their own. This crosses all lines of colour, political affiliation, social background, later criminal status etc.
The swiftboaters either were not combat veterans, or John Kerry’s perception of his war service record was at odds with the perceptions of those who served with him.
TonyD@394: I checked out the video. The guy holding the thingamy clearly had earphones on, which indicates he was almost certainly a sound technician holding and pointing a microphone – possibly for the person doing the filming. It’s unlikely that a person wanting to engage in gun combat in a highly volatile and panicked situation such as this would wear earphones (or ear muffs, as they do at rifle ranges), as he’d be at a clear disadvantage.
TonyD@394: I checked out the video. The guy holding the thingamy clearly had earphones on, which indicates he was almost certainly a sound technician holding and pointing a microphone – possibly for the person doing the filming. It’s unlikely that a person wanting to engage in gun combat in a highly volatile and panicked situation such as this would wear earphones (or ear muffs, as they do at rifle ranges), as he’d be at a clear disadvantage.
I stand by my intepretation above, of a small band of radicals infiltrating the essentially noble aims of the flotilla, thereby making it harder for futire aid groups.
CNN are reporting the IHH as claiming before the bloodshed to have captured 4 commandos, disarming them and holding them captive before the others stormed aboard. Major provocation one would think.
A Cameraman from al-jazeera backs this aspect up.
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/04/gaza.raid.autopsies/
“The bodies of the 9 dead, as well as more then 460 surviving passengers from the convoy arrived at Istanbul airport before dawn on Thursday. They were treated to a hero’s welcome, particularly Bulent Yildirim, the chairman of the Islamist, fiercely pro-Palestinian Turkish charity the Humanitarian Relief Foundation (IHH). IHH was one of the main groups organizing the blockade-busting flotilla.
In remarks to the press, Yildirim said his colleagues fought Israeli troops in self defense aboard the Mavi Marmara. He added that in the early stages of the clashes, his activists captured several Israel commandoes, as well as their weapons, and took them below decks.
The Israeli troops were given water, Yildirim said. He insisted none of the activists fired the captured Israeli guns.”
I stand by my intepretation above, of a small band of radicals infiltrating the essentially noble aims of the flotilla, thereby making it harder for futire aid groups.
CNN are reporting the IHH as claiming before the bloodshed to have captured 4 commandos, disarming them and holding them captive before the others stormed aboard. Major provocation one would think.
A Cameraman from al-jazeera backs this aspect up.
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/04/gaza.raid.autopsies/
“The bodies of the 9 dead, as well as more then 460 surviving passengers from the convoy arrived at Istanbul airport before dawn on Thursday. They were treated to a hero’s welcome, particularly Bulent Yildirim, the chairman of the Islamist, fiercely pro-Palestinian Turkish charity the Humanitarian Relief Foundation (IHH). IHH was one of the main groups organizing the blockade-busting flotilla.
In remarks to the press, Yildirim said his colleagues fought Israeli troops in self defense aboard the Mavi Marmara. He added that in the early stages of the clashes, his activists captured several Israel commandoes, as well as their weapons, and took them below decks.
The Israeli troops were given water, Yildirim said. He insisted none of the activists fired the captured Israeli guns.”
one of them was from a rice barrel backfire, Steve – I read his record online.
I don’t believe that stuff about foxhole brothers. After all, if they don’t turn on each other, how come Kerry betrayed them by lying about his service record?
one of them was from a rice barrel backfire, Steve – I read his record online.
I don’t believe that stuff about foxhole brothers. After all, if they don’t turn on each other, how come Kerry betrayed them by lying about his service record?
I’m not sure of the veracity of this souce, but here it is anyway.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3898960,00.html
Andre Abu Khalil, a Lebanese cameraman for Al Jazeera TV, gave an account that backed some of what both sides have said.
In his telling, activists initially wounded and captured four Israelis from a first wave that boarded the ship. A second wave of troops tried to storm the ship after the four were taken below decks.
“Twenty Turkish men formed a human shield to prevent the Israeli soldiers from scaling the ship. They had slingshots, water pipes and sticks,” he said. “They were banging the pipes on the side of the ship to warn the Israelis not to get closer.”
After a 10-minute standoff the Israelis opened fire.
“One man got a direct hit to the head and another one was shot in the neck,” he said. In all he saw some 40 people wounded, some to the legs, eye, stomach and chest.
One activist used a loudhailer to tell the Israelis the four captive soldiers were well and would be released if they provided medical help for the wounded activists. With an Israeli Arab lawmaker acting as mediator, the Israelis agreed. Wounded were brought to the deck and were airlifted off the ship.
I’m not sure of the veracity of this souce, but here it is anyway.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3898960,00.html
Andre Abu Khalil, a Lebanese cameraman for Al Jazeera TV, gave an account that backed some of what both sides have said.
In his telling, activists initially wounded and captured four Israelis from a first wave that boarded the ship. A second wave of troops tried to storm the ship after the four were taken below decks.
“Twenty Turkish men formed a human shield to prevent the Israeli soldiers from scaling the ship. They had slingshots, water pipes and sticks,” he said. “They were banging the pipes on the side of the ship to warn the Israelis not to get closer.”
After a 10-minute standoff the Israelis opened fire.
“One man got a direct hit to the head and another one was shot in the neck,” he said. In all he saw some 40 people wounded, some to the legs, eye, stomach and chest.
One activist used a loudhailer to tell the Israelis the four captive soldiers were well and would be released if they provided medical help for the wounded activists. With an Israeli Arab lawmaker acting as mediator, the Israelis agreed. Wounded were brought to the deck and were airlifted off the ship.
I read that today Sublime Cowgirl – and with respect, we’ve known there was resistance on the Mavi from day one. Its still not clear at what point the IDF killed at least 8 of the nine people. One eyewitness account has it that they killed a Malaysian doctor while he was tending to one of the wounded.
Again – in terms of the defenders on the Mavi: Ive seen worse violence at a pub on a Saturday night. Where’s the part where 9 shooting deaths are justified?
I read that today Sublime Cowgirl – and with respect, we’ve known there was resistance on the Mavi from day one. Its still not clear at what point the IDF killed at least 8 of the nine people. One eyewitness account has it that they killed a Malaysian doctor while he was tending to one of the wounded.
Again – in terms of the defenders on the Mavi: Ive seen worse violence at a pub on a Saturday night. Where’s the part where 9 shooting deaths are justified?
Hang on, Ive just re-read that: so, a group of men were preventing the Israelis’, – who are at that point on boats – from boarding (illegally, in international waters) – and the IDF response was…. to shoot one in the head?
So there we go: there’s our context to the video we then see, when the IDF gives up on that approach and then boards from the air. As predicted by many here, what preceded the video was indeed very important.
I don’t know if we have any info to conclude they were ‘radicals’ – but they certainly had balls.
Most importantly – I cant agree with the conclusion that this group has “thereby made it harder for future aid groups”. I’d say if anything the IDF cocked this up so badly, with a massively disproportionate use of force, killing totally unrelated people in the process, that they’ve only made heroes of the defenders – and made it harder for future IDF interceptions.
Expect more boats. And more testosterone-fuelled unarmed young guys wanting to have a go at defending them.
Hang on, Ive just re-read that: so, a group of men were preventing the Israelis’, – who are at that point on boats – from boarding (illegally, in international waters) – and the IDF response was…. to shoot one in the head?
So there we go: there’s our context to the video we then see, when the IDF gives up on that approach and then boards from the air. As predicted by many here, what preceded the video was indeed very important.
I don’t know if we have any info to conclude they were ‘radicals’ – but they certainly had balls.
Most importantly – I cant agree with the conclusion that this group has “thereby made it harder for future aid groups”. I’d say if anything the IDF cocked this up so badly, with a massively disproportionate use of force, killing totally unrelated people in the process, that they’ve only made heroes of the defenders – and made it harder for future IDF interceptions.
Expect more boats. And more testosterone-fuelled unarmed young guys wanting to have a go at defending them.
Of course, Two can play at that game. Don’t expect the IDF to go in soft next time.
Of course, Two can play at that game. Don’t expect the IDF to go in soft next time.
Lefty E @408: “Again – in terms of the defenders on the Mavi: Ive seen worse violence at a pub on a Saturday night. Where’s the part where 9 shooting deaths are justified?”
It isn’t. The whole action by the IDF was illegal and excessive. If there were any justice, the perps will eventually rot indefinitely in a Turkish prison, but I won’t hold my breath.
If given an illegal order, don’t services personnel have a right and a duty to mutiny? “Only obeying orders” is NOT a valid defence, remember.
Lefty E @408: “Again – in terms of the defenders on the Mavi: Ive seen worse violence at a pub on a Saturday night. Where’s the part where 9 shooting deaths are justified?”
It isn’t. The whole action by the IDF was illegal and excessive. If there were any justice, the perps will eventually rot indefinitely in a Turkish prison, but I won’t hold my breath.
If given an illegal order, don’t services personnel have a right and a duty to mutiny? “Only obeying orders” is NOT a valid defence, remember.
Gee, I dunno about you Steve (suspect not so much), but I really admire the guys trying to protect whales, in the face of those Japanese whalers who are shooting them with water cannon. But if one of them produced a gun and shot one of the Japanese in the head – I’d have to swap sides.
Rest assured, the ADF in Timor in 2006-7 faced much worse gang violence (ambon darts, machetes, large numbers of people) and didnt shoot 9 people, ever.
So, whats wrong with the IDF – facing way less resistance? Are they poorly trained? poorly disciplined? Hopelessly panicked conscripts? Totally indifferent to peoples’ lives? Or have they got orders to kill?
It has to be one of the above. None of them are acceptable in a modern military of a democratic state.
Gee, I dunno about you Steve (suspect not so much), but I really admire the guys trying to protect whales, in the face of those Japanese whalers who are shooting them with water cannon. But if one of them produced a gun and shot one of the Japanese in the head – I’d have to swap sides.
Rest assured, the ADF in Timor in 2006-7 faced much worse gang violence (ambon darts, machetes, large numbers of people) and didnt shoot 9 people, ever.
So, whats wrong with the IDF – facing way less resistance? Are they poorly trained? poorly disciplined? Hopelessly panicked conscripts? Totally indifferent to peoples’ lives? Or have they got orders to kill?
It has to be one of the above. None of them are acceptable in a modern military of a democratic state.
Would really you choose to jump sides and support Japanese whaling just because an idiotic activist shot one? That doesn’t sound logical.
Would really you choose to jump sides and support Japanese whaling just because an idiotic activist shot one? That doesn’t sound logical.
Mossad would have known there were a few willing martyrs in the fleet. It doesn’t take too much to sacrifice a few willing pawns on either side to continue the null sum game that’s been going on for what seems almost forever. In this scenario, the most powerful wins.
If fleets that have better screened volunteers aboard keep coming, the strategy of might before right will not last.
(This doesn’t mean I condone any violent act towards Isreal, either)
Hmm. Ok… obviously I wouldn’t stop opposing whaling. But anyone would condemn such an action, wouldnt they?
Yet put a uniform on the same bozo, and its always ok by the bootlickers.
Hmm. Ok… obviously I wouldn’t stop opposing whaling. But anyone would condemn such an action, wouldnt they?
Yet put a uniform on the same bozo, and its always ok by the bootlickers.
I’ve been waiting for what Paul McGeough had to say. This is the first I’ve seen.
I haven’t read the whole thread so apologies if I’ve missed something.
LE, how about total contempt for the people they are dealing with.
I’ve been waiting for what Paul McGeough had to say. This is the first I’ve seen.
I haven’t read the whole thread so apologies if I’ve missed something.
LE, how about total contempt for the people they are dealing with.
Effectively being at war for decades will do that to a country. People on both sides grow up hating the other. Same reason that people believe that launching rockets that basically land randomly in civilian areas is doing their cause any good.
Effectively being at war for decades will do that to a country. People on both sides grow up hating the other. Same reason that people believe that launching rockets that basically land randomly in civilian areas is doing their cause any good.
Thanks for the link Brian. It makes for hilarious reading.
It is not reporting though. It is a partisan rant a la Albrechtsen.
McGeough is a wanker.
Thanks for the link Brian. It makes for hilarious reading.
It is not reporting though. It is a partisan rant a la Albrechtsen.
McGeough is a wanker.
I thought his report was great.
Except for this one line.
That’s the line that will comepletely discredit his piece. I’m surprised Bolt et al haven’t seized on it yet.
I thought his report was great.
Except for this one line.
That’s the line that will comepletely discredit his piece. I’m surprised Bolt et al haven’t seized on it yet.
Roger at 412 – yeah, that is what is weird, and what Brian linked to.
The IDF were naive to think all the activists would act peacefully. Either that, or they were banking on a strategy where the more radical amongst them did something stupid and kidnapped and assaulted the first few, allowing them use deadly force.
I’m sure thats what the radicals who sought martyrdom were banking on too.
The idealist in me just wishes all the activists played it straight. Like LE mentioned, it becomes a little more problematic when the hypothetically violent anti whalers disrespect life, in the quest to save it.
Roger at 412 – yeah, that is what is weird, and what Brian linked to.
The IDF were naive to think all the activists would act peacefully. Either that, or they were banking on a strategy where the more radical amongst them did something stupid and kidnapped and assaulted the first few, allowing them use deadly force.
I’m sure thats what the radicals who sought martyrdom were banking on too.
The idealist in me just wishes all the activists played it straight. Like LE mentioned, it becomes a little more problematic when the hypothetically violent anti whalers disrespect life, in the quest to save it.
tssk @ 49.
well, sometimes journalists/writers can’t help themselves. Got to have a bit of colour, mate.
And the Israelis did hunt like hyenas, shooting journalosts,and at actors, doctors and so on, mostly unarmed, and no match for armed soldiers. The Israeli army is so used to shooting children who throw rocks they panic when they come up against even relatively unarmed adults who stand up to them.
tssk @ 49.
well, sometimes journalists/writers can’t help themselves. Got to have a bit of colour, mate.
And the Israelis did hunt like hyenas, shooting journalosts,and at actors, doctors and so on, mostly unarmed, and no match for armed soldiers. The Israeli army is so used to shooting children who throw rocks they panic when they come up against even relatively unarmed adults who stand up to them.
Rubbish tssk. It is quite reasonably descriptive and why the hell should things now be considered through the prism of how “Bolt et al” will think about it?
After all he hunts and runs, in a pack, like a hyena, himself.
Rubbish tssk. It is quite reasonably descriptive and why the hell should things now be considered through the prism of how “Bolt et al” will think about it?
After all he hunts and runs, in a pack, like a hyena, himself.
Well, much as I hate to say it about religious kooks, IHH/Hamas turned in a stellar performance.
The evidence I have spent the last 2 days analysing is conclusive enough for me to satisfy my own mind.
I’ll summarise it here for anyone vaguely interested. I do not particularly care if people agree or disagree – I do this for myself because I do not trust the media spouting Islamist propaganda or the zionist propaganda. It also hones skills useful in my PG research.
Here, we have the tapes. FWIW, they are far too internally consistent to have been faked in the available time. Sorry, for those who think they are a diabolical Jewish conspiracy, they are genuine.
The IHH/Hamas operation aboard the Mavimarmara was extremely well conceived and very well planned. I have identified four distinct tactical formations of IHH/Hamas militants. The two largest numbered 20 (+/- 5)and were used as infantry. These were the metal bar armed groups doing the main ambush on the aft superstructure. Interestingly, when they were able to seize pistols, they were passed to a third group of ~15 (+/-5). This included an obvious shadid squad, and it was this group that led the final charge on the Jewish defensive double-circle. That’s where the Jews finally used their own pistols to destroy the charge. The captured IDF pistols were used to provide fire support for this charge. There was also a small IHH/Hamas ‘fire ambush’ team inside the superstructure (they must have been lousy shots, too poor to be called snipers but that was the obvious intention). The Captain of the Turkish ship has confirmed that he saw them throw their guns overboard.
The IDF can be suckered, and was.
The IHH/Hamas use of useful idiots also used them as human shields and as active propaganda sympathisers. This is new in this context and is a very neat tactic. Most of these doe-eyed idiots are too stupid to see it, as you’d expect.
We are now seeing the strategic impacts. They indicate the amazing scale of this IHH/Hamas victory.
No joke, this is perhaps the greatest strategic defeat the Zionists have ever suffered, and we are still seeing only the leading edge of it.
1. The blockade is over. Egypt has opened its border.
2. The Turkish-Zionist alliance is over. Erdogan has announced that he does not consider Hamas to be a terrorist organisation. That puts the knife through the heart of the alliance.
3. Turkey is effectively out of NATO, has given up on the EU and is turning to radical islam (oh joy, more religious crazies).
4. Secularism in Turkey is under existential threat. Either the Army takes power and purges the Islamists again, or it’s over and the Islamists take over Turkey (and purge the Army Ayatollah Khomeini style).
5. Above all else, Egypt is wobbling badly on the peace treaty with the Zionists. Was this the ultimate goal of Hamas and the IHH? or just their wildest dream?
This is a recipe for unparallelled regioanl instability. It plays into Tehran’s hands perfectly. In my view, it means a major war, and soon.
Well, much as I hate to say it about religious kooks, IHH/Hamas turned in a stellar performance.
The evidence I have spent the last 2 days analysing is conclusive enough for me to satisfy my own mind.
I’ll summarise it here for anyone vaguely interested. I do not particularly care if people agree or disagree – I do this for myself because I do not trust the media spouting Islamist propaganda or the zionist propaganda. It also hones skills useful in my PG research.
Here, we have the tapes. FWIW, they are far too internally consistent to have been faked in the available time. Sorry, for those who think they are a diabolical Jewish conspiracy, they are genuine.
The IHH/Hamas operation aboard the Mavimarmara was extremely well conceived and very well planned. I have identified four distinct tactical formations of IHH/Hamas militants. The two largest numbered 20 (+/- 5)and were used as infantry. These were the metal bar armed groups doing the main ambush on the aft superstructure. Interestingly, when they were able to seize pistols, they were passed to a third group of ~15 (+/-5). This included an obvious shadid squad, and it was this group that led the final charge on the Jewish defensive double-circle. That’s where the Jews finally used their own pistols to destroy the charge. The captured IDF pistols were used to provide fire support for this charge. There was also a small IHH/Hamas ‘fire ambush’ team inside the superstructure (they must have been lousy shots, too poor to be called snipers but that was the obvious intention). The Captain of the Turkish ship has confirmed that he saw them throw their guns overboard.
The IDF can be suckered, and was.
The IHH/Hamas use of useful idiots also used them as human shields and as active propaganda sympathisers. This is new in this context and is a very neat tactic. Most of these doe-eyed idiots are too stupid to see it, as you’d expect.
We are now seeing the strategic impacts. They indicate the amazing scale of this IHH/Hamas victory.
No joke, this is perhaps the greatest strategic defeat the Zionists have ever suffered, and we are still seeing only the leading edge of it.
1. The blockade is over. Egypt has opened its border.
2. The Turkish-Zionist alliance is over. Erdogan has announced that he does not consider Hamas to be a terrorist organisation. That puts the knife through the heart of the alliance.
3. Turkey is effectively out of NATO, has given up on the EU and is turning to radical islam (oh joy, more religious crazies).
4. Secularism in Turkey is under existential threat. Either the Army takes power and purges the Islamists again, or it’s over and the Islamists take over Turkey (and purge the Army Ayatollah Khomeini style).
5. Above all else, Egypt is wobbling badly on the peace treaty with the Zionists. Was this the ultimate goal of Hamas and the IHH? or just their wildest dream?
This is a recipe for unparallelled regioanl instability. It plays into Tehran’s hands perfectly. In my view, it means a major war, and soon.
This notion, last proferred by the sublime cowgirl at #422, that it was the activists who should have “acted peacefully” really needs challenging.
They were on board their own ship, for peaceful purposes, when attacked by anonymously clad armed invaders. These could have been pirates,for all the peopleonboard knew. Should the people on board the ship not have been allowed to defend themselves??
How dare people try to justify this despicable, thuggish act yet again from Arrogant Israel, or the cowardice of Western governments in not condemning this act of terrorism.
Finishing, I note the current edition of the Guardian carries a story about the amount of bullets fired into the heads of some passengers at close range: NOT self defence, but a massacre!
This story seems unlocatable on Aussie press outlets, at least online, btw.
This notion, last proferred by the sublime cowgirl at #422, that it was the activists who should have “acted peacefully” really needs challenging.
They were on board their own ship, for peaceful purposes, when attacked by anonymously clad armed invaders. These could have been pirates,for all the peopleonboard knew. Should the people on board the ship not have been allowed to defend themselves??
How dare people try to justify this despicable, thuggish act yet again from Arrogant Israel, or the cowardice of Western governments in not condemning this act of terrorism.
Finishing, I note the current edition of the Guardian carries a story about the amount of bullets fired into the heads of some passengers at close range: NOT self defence, but a massacre!
This story seems unlocatable on Aussie press outlets, at least online, btw.
McGeough’s description of the raid is more telegraphic than purple prose, and certainly not a wank. I have issues with it, though not major ones.
I don’t know how McGeough knows this, or even whether prayer time would be a good time for an attack.
[Katz, from this point on you missed 4/9 of the / needed to end blockquote -ed]
McGeough’s description of the raid is more telegraphic than purple prose, and certainly not a wank. I have issues with it, though not major ones.
I don’t know how McGeough knows this, or even whether prayer time would be a good time for an attack.
[Katz, from this point on you missed 4/9 of the / needed to end blockquote -ed]
Sorry about the disastrous formatting. Please feel free to get rid of the above.
McGeough’s description of the raid is more telegraphic than purple prose, and certainly not a wank. I have issues with it, though not major ones.
I don’t know how McGeough knows this, or even whether prayer time would be a good time for an attack.
This is good information, indicating that the flotilla rejected the authority of the Israelis to raid their vessels.
This wasn’t a sneak attack. The defenders had plenty of time to organise their response to the raiders.
A touch too purple, but it is a reasonable description of Zodiac tactics.
The defenders had organised themselves to a certain extent but the defenders also resorted some ad hoc action.
It was reasonable for the defenders to conclude that the raiders were backing up their threat to use lethal force. Lethal self-defence is a reasonable response to lethal force.
More evidence of an organised defence.
A reasonable summary of the raiders’ tactics.
But the raiders were incapable of surprising the defenders! Herein lies the fiasco.
Raiders were at the mercy of the defenders, yet no raiders were killed. This fact has been confirmed by the Israeli government.
This story is about the making of a diplomatic disaster. This is no Entebbe, which was a triumph. McGeough has done do good job.
Sorry about the disastrous formatting. Please feel free to get rid of the above.
McGeough’s description of the raid is more telegraphic than purple prose, and certainly not a wank. I have issues with it, though not major ones.
I don’t know how McGeough knows this, or even whether prayer time would be a good time for an attack.
This is good information, indicating that the flotilla rejected the authority of the Israelis to raid their vessels.
This wasn’t a sneak attack. The defenders had plenty of time to organise their response to the raiders.
A touch too purple, but it is a reasonable description of Zodiac tactics.
The defenders had organised themselves to a certain extent but the defenders also resorted some ad hoc action.
It was reasonable for the defenders to conclude that the raiders were backing up their threat to use lethal force. Lethal self-defence is a reasonable response to lethal force.
More evidence of an organised defence.
A reasonable summary of the raiders’ tactics.
But the raiders were incapable of surprising the defenders! Herein lies the fiasco.
Raiders were at the mercy of the defenders, yet no raiders were killed. This fact has been confirmed by the Israeli government.
This story is about the making of a diplomatic disaster. This is no Entebbe, which was a triumph. McGeough has done do good job.
Paul…Joe2…I know I know. But reading through that I knew straight away that that phrase would be lept on. I would have tried to keep it neutral (bit hard of course when you witness first hand piracy and people being shot in the face by paintgun pellets, I know I wouldn’t have been fit to write so soon afterwards so kudos for putting pen to paper so fast after the event.)
Paul…Joe2…I know I know. But reading through that I knew straight away that that phrase would be lept on. I would have tried to keep it neutral (bit hard of course when you witness first hand piracy and people being shot in the face by paintgun pellets, I know I wouldn’t have been fit to write so soon afterwards so kudos for putting pen to paper so fast after the event.)
Autopsy results on the nine Turkish men killed by the IDF. They appear to have died in a hail of 9 mm bullets, many hitting them in the face, head and neck.
That’s not paintball, or a series of unfortunate accidents. The murderers must be handed over and prosecuted appropriately.
Autopsy results on the nine Turkish men killed by the IDF. They appear to have died in a hail of 9 mm bullets, many hitting them in the face, head and neck.
That’s not paintball, or a series of unfortunate accidents. The murderers must be handed over and prosecuted appropriately.
What Katz said (though I less strongly endorse his formatting)
Well, folks, brace yourself for a new theory: these were targeted assassinations, many of which went wrong.
Im not in any way endorsing this, merely noting this Prensa Latina report. (And no, I dont regard it as the world’s most reliable source – however, I am quite sure that it reports an IHH press conference that actually took place).
Let’s see if anything comes of this. Since it about as well founded an allegation as “IDF self-defence”, I’ll link it; with reservations noted.
http://www.plenglish.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=194586&Itemid=1
What Katz said (though I less strongly endorse his formatting)
Well, folks, brace yourself for a new theory: these were targeted assassinations, many of which went wrong.
Im not in any way endorsing this, merely noting this Prensa Latina report. (And no, I dont regard it as the world’s most reliable source – however, I am quite sure that it reports an IHH press conference that actually took place).
Let’s see if anything comes of this. Since it about as well founded an allegation as “IDF self-defence”, I’ll link it; with reservations noted.
http://www.plenglish.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=194586&Itemid=1
He is a journalist on assignment, tssk. It is his job to report speedliy. That he did not earlier, I would suggest, was more about the IDF confining him and his colleague so they could take control of the message.
He is a journalist on assignment, tssk. It is his job to report speedliy. That he did not earlier, I would suggest, was more about the IDF confining him and his colleague so they could take control of the message.
Blair has jumped on the Hyenas line.
As well as posting a youtube link showing all the weapons that were seized.
Blair has jumped on the Hyenas line.
As well as posting a youtube link showing all the weapons that were seized.
Takes one to know one, tssk.
Takes one to know one, tssk.
?
?
somewhere up above, someone (FaceLift?) mentioned how “uncomfortable” it must have been for the Israelis on the boats to be attacked as they approached (poor dears), with one boat even having a stun grenade land on it, but now we see where that stun grenade came from:
The people on the flotilla obviously didn’t come armed.
The great thing about this is that teh people on the boat were using the same tactics that Japanese whalers use – nothing more lethal than fire hoses and a few thrown objects. Do the gregMs and SATPs and Bolts of the world see them as thugs and terrorists?
somewhere up above, someone (FaceLift?) mentioned how “uncomfortable” it must have been for the Israelis on the boats to be attacked as they approached (poor dears), with one boat even having a stun grenade land on it, but now we see where that stun grenade came from:
The people on the flotilla obviously didn’t come armed.
The great thing about this is that teh people on the boat were using the same tactics that Japanese whalers use – nothing more lethal than fire hoses and a few thrown objects. Do the gregMs and SATPs and Bolts of the world see them as thugs and terrorists?
Good post, Katz.
Good post, Katz.
I think its important to appreciate how successful the flotilla has been in casting light on Israel’s totally indefensible blockade.
The US has openly condemned the blockade:
“Barack Obama said that while Israel’s security concerns were [bla bla bla], the blockade of the Gaza Strip was causing economic harm to its inhabitants.”
Netanyahu is backing down on it, as the light of day exposes just how nasty, cruel, and completely unrelated to security issues much of it is:
“…to ease the blockade of Gaza is to allow civilian goods, particularly food and humanitarian equipment, to enter the Gaza Strip more easily by abolishing the current distinction between basic foodstuffs and food items that are considered luxuries.”
What are these luxuries banned by Israel in the name of it own security?
“In February last year it emerged that food staples such as lentils, chickpeas, macaroni and tomato paste were on Israel’s banned list.”
http://www.theage.com.au/world/israel-defiant-on-protest-ships-20100604-xkx1.html
I think its important to appreciate how successful the flotilla has been in casting light on Israel’s totally indefensible blockade.
The US has openly condemned the blockade:
“Barack Obama said that while Israel’s security concerns were [bla bla bla], the blockade of the Gaza Strip was causing economic harm to its inhabitants.”
Netanyahu is backing down on it, as the light of day exposes just how nasty, cruel, and completely unrelated to security issues much of it is:
“…to ease the blockade of Gaza is to allow civilian goods, particularly food and humanitarian equipment, to enter the Gaza Strip more easily by abolishing the current distinction between basic foodstuffs and food items that are considered luxuries.”
What are these luxuries banned by Israel in the name of it own security?
“In February last year it emerged that food staples such as lentils, chickpeas, macaroni and tomato paste were on Israel’s banned list.”
http://www.theage.com.au/world/israel-defiant-on-protest-ships-20100604-xkx1.html
Katz @ 423 you missed a total of 4 out of 10 of the / needed to end the blockquote. Not bad going!
Someone else might like to delete it.
Katz @ 423 you missed a total of 4 out of 10 of the / needed to end the blockquote. Not bad going!
Someone else might like to delete it.
Good question LE.
Clearly the Netanyahu regime has read carefully historical accounts of the German management of the Warsaw Ghetto during WWII.
Good question LE.
Clearly the Netanyahu regime has read carefully historical accounts of the German management of the Warsaw Ghetto during WWII.
Thanks to right-wing troll Iaian Hall for alerting us to this video. Once again Israeli Jews shoot themselves in the foot by exposing their racism and basic inhumanity.
Thanks to right-wing troll Iaian Hall for alerting us to this video. Once again Israeli Jews shoot themselves in the foot by exposing their racism and basic inhumanity.
Sorry, it does seem slow, getting coments up today.
Just wanted to mention marvellous “take” on this by Guy Rundle at Crikey/the Stump. Some of the dirty linen really is getting exposed here, and from unexpected sources.
Sorry, it does seem slow, getting coments up today.
Just wanted to mention marvellous “take” on this by Guy Rundle at Crikey/the Stump. Some of the dirty linen really is getting exposed here, and from unexpected sources.
Or there is this audio, no doubt faked
Or there is this audio, no doubt faked
I’d say it probably is SATP. The comments sound just too conveniently staged.
I’d say it probably is SATP. The comments sound just too conveniently staged.
As the Rachael Corrie steams towards Gaza there must be real apprehension on board. The 13 activists (all of whom were specially recruited by Hamas/HHI for their skills in unarmed killing) may be going to get a real surprise.
Benny, seeing as he managed to defeat 800 unarmed activists (some of whom brought their wives and children with them to assist in the invasion of Israel), may decide to show the world that he has another side to him.
What better way to do this than to hit the Rachael Corrie with a nuclear-armed missile, one marked Made In The USA.
I mean, Rachael, a peace activist, was run over by an IDF armoured bulldozer which then reversed back over her. What better way for her to die again than in an Israeli mushroom cloud. Imagine the T.V. footage!
Then this thread could get to 800 comments arguing about whether Israel had done anything wrong and whether it has the legal right to blow up ships in international waters.
Fair dinkum!
As the Rachael Corrie steams towards Gaza there must be real apprehension on board. The 13 activists (all of whom were specially recruited by Hamas/HHI for their skills in unarmed killing) may be going to get a real surprise.
Benny, seeing as he managed to defeat 800 unarmed activists (some of whom brought their wives and children with them to assist in the invasion of Israel), may decide to show the world that he has another side to him.
What better way to do this than to hit the Rachael Corrie with a nuclear-armed missile, one marked Made In The USA.
I mean, Rachael, a peace activist, was run over by an IDF armoured bulldozer which then reversed back over her. What better way for her to die again than in an Israeli mushroom cloud. Imagine the T.V. footage!
Then this thread could get to 800 comments arguing about whether Israel had done anything wrong and whether it has the legal right to blow up ships in international waters.
Fair dinkum!
sg, even McGeogh doesn’t agree with you, and while he wasn’t on the Mavi Marmara, his account taken from those who were, and who can be relied upon to give the most favourable spin to the activists on that ship, is that:
Katz is of the view (or should I say “stipulates”) that:
He has drawn his conclusion that lethal force was being applied by the activists repelling the boarding by the Israelis. The corollary is that lethal force begets lethal force. Hence the nine dead.
Also I haven’t seen any account yet of the Israelis bringing up some large ship to run across the bows of any of the vessels in the flotilla and sinking it.
PS. Love your work @425, Katz. It looks like some weird haiku and is a lesson to us all to remember to use /blockquotes.
sg, even McGeogh doesn’t agree with you, and while he wasn’t on the Mavi Marmara, his account taken from those who were, and who can be relied upon to give the most favourable spin to the activists on that ship, is that:
Katz is of the view (or should I say “stipulates”) that:
He has drawn his conclusion that lethal force was being applied by the activists repelling the boarding by the Israelis. The corollary is that lethal force begets lethal force. Hence the nine dead.
Also I haven’t seen any account yet of the Israelis bringing up some large ship to run across the bows of any of the vessels in the flotilla and sinking it.
PS. Love your work @425, Katz. It looks like some weird haiku and is a lesson to us all to remember to use /blockquotes.
What I said @360 about irrational lather.
What I said @360 about irrational lather.
No I didn’t. Learn to read.
No I didn’t. Learn to read.
Days of Planning Led to Flotilla’s Hour of Chaos
ISTANBUL — It was just getting light when the Turkish boat, packed with 546 activists, descended into chaos, and Mahmut Koskun, a Turkish doctor on board, was in the middle of it.
The crack of an Israeli sound grenade and a hail of rubber bullets from above were supposed to disperse activists, but instead set them in motion. And when three Israeli commandos slid down ropes out of helicopters to take over the ship, a crowd set upon them.
“They ran at them without pause or hesitation,” Dr. Koskun recalled.
One soldier was stabbed and two were beaten. From that moment on, the attempted takeover turned into an armed assault, with angry Israeli commandos opening fire. Within an hour, the commandos had taken control of the ship, and nine Turks, including one who also had American citizenship, were dead.
Dozens of interviews in Israel and Turkey suggest that Israel’s decision to stop the flotilla at all costs collided with the intention of a small group of Islamic activists from Turkey, turning a raid on a ship of protesters in international waters into a bloodbath — and a major international event.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/05/world/europe/05reconstruct.html?pagewanted=1
Days of Planning Led to Flotilla’s Hour of Chaos
ISTANBUL — It was just getting light when the Turkish boat, packed with 546 activists, descended into chaos, and Mahmut Koskun, a Turkish doctor on board, was in the middle of it.
The crack of an Israeli sound grenade and a hail of rubber bullets from above were supposed to disperse activists, but instead set them in motion. And when three Israeli commandos slid down ropes out of helicopters to take over the ship, a crowd set upon them.
“They ran at them without pause or hesitation,” Dr. Koskun recalled.
One soldier was stabbed and two were beaten. From that moment on, the attempted takeover turned into an armed assault, with angry Israeli commandos opening fire. Within an hour, the commandos had taken control of the ship, and nine Turks, including one who also had American citizenship, were dead.
Dozens of interviews in Israel and Turkey suggest that Israel’s decision to stop the flotilla at all costs collided with the intention of a small group of Islamic activists from Turkey, turning a raid on a ship of protesters in international waters into a bloodbath — and a major international event.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/05/world/europe/05reconstruct.html?pagewanted=1
That was what you wrote. Learn how to write better if that is not what you meant.
That was what you wrote. Learn how to write better if that is not what you meant.
Yeah GregM, McGeough’s account gives that impression if you ignore the bit before that where he tells about them being attacked from all sides with stun grenades, which the activists had been throwing overboard (along with firing the hoses) until they heard the helicopters and rushed up. Note that when the whaling activists boarded the Japanese ships they were also manhandled, with the degree of manhandling matching the degree of threat – had they come fully armed onto the whaling ships, would you be accusing the whalers of thuggery if they beat protesters armed with guns and grenades who boarded their ship?
If you “haven’t seen any account yet of the Israelis bringing up some large ship to run across the bows of any of the vessels in the flotilla and sinking it,” perhaps you should try reading a little more closely; McGeough’s account yesterday mentioned that the captain of the ship he was on was “used to being rammed by Israeli warships.”
Perhaps you need to pay more attention?
Yeah GregM, McGeough’s account gives that impression if you ignore the bit before that where he tells about them being attacked from all sides with stun grenades, which the activists had been throwing overboard (along with firing the hoses) until they heard the helicopters and rushed up. Note that when the whaling activists boarded the Japanese ships they were also manhandled, with the degree of manhandling matching the degree of threat – had they come fully armed onto the whaling ships, would you be accusing the whalers of thuggery if they beat protesters armed with guns and grenades who boarded their ship?
If you “haven’t seen any account yet of the Israelis bringing up some large ship to run across the bows of any of the vessels in the flotilla and sinking it,” perhaps you should try reading a little more closely; McGeough’s account yesterday mentioned that the captain of the ship he was on was “used to being rammed by Israeli warships.”
Perhaps you need to pay more attention?
What you said at @360, GregM, is just as irrational and stupid as what you said at @445. Of course, from the safety of your armchair, it’s easy for you to engage in a nice little academic debate. Pass the latte!
If it was your kids being starved (as in Gaza) or it was your father that was shot in the most recent Israeli atrocity, etc, you might not be so pompous and self-righteous.
What you said at @360, GregM, is just as irrational and stupid as what you said at @445. Of course, from the safety of your armchair, it’s easy for you to engage in a nice little academic debate. Pass the latte!
If it was your kids being starved (as in Gaza) or it was your father that was shot in the most recent Israeli atrocity, etc, you might not be so pompous and self-righteous.
This is the latest I can find on the Rachael Corrie. It is being followed by Israeli warships and its radar is being jammed!
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/06/201064235620154213.html
This is the latest I can find on the Rachael Corrie. It is being followed by Israeli warships and its radar is being jammed!
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/06/201064235620154213.html
Guys, sorry for the emphasis on the violence and counter-violence which is clearly only a secondary story to the larger morality of the Gaza Blockade.
I just feel i’ve had to justify my original perception that a small bunch of idiots amongst the genuine ‘peace’ activists (lets not forget it was called a ‘Peace Flotilla’)acted poorly and to some extent compromised the groups stated objectives of being non-violent force for ‘peace’ by suspending non-violent resistance principles and being evidently provocative.
(Do i need to quote from my battered volumes of Gene Sharps seminal work on Non Violent Action i bought from the UQ 2nd hand bookshop nearly 20 years ago?).
Oh and LE…(and please dont take this as a thread derailment, just a tongue in cheek anecdote given previous comments!) I found this ironic quote from former Israeli Air Forces member and Whaling activist Mr Ady Gil (financial backer of the ‘Ady Gil’)
“In Africa, it’s OK to shoot poachers in Kenya. They tell them not to kill the elephants and they still kill the elephants. They say if you continue to kill the elephants, we’re going to shoot you – and they do. Is the next step for someone to go down there and shoot the Japanese? Is that where it needs to get to in order to stop it?” he asks.
“If I pulled a knife here and demanded money,” he says, nodding at the crowd of James St latte lappers, “there would be police here with guns. Guns are how you enforce the law – with power.”
Guys, sorry for the emphasis on the violence and counter-violence which is clearly only a secondary story to the larger morality of the Gaza Blockade.
I just feel i’ve had to justify my original perception that a small bunch of idiots amongst the genuine ‘peace’ activists (lets not forget it was called a ‘Peace Flotilla’)acted poorly and to some extent compromised the groups stated objectives of being non-violent force for ‘peace’ by suspending non-violent resistance principles and being evidently provocative.
(Do i need to quote from my battered volumes of Gene Sharps seminal work on Non Violent Action i bought from the UQ 2nd hand bookshop nearly 20 years ago?).
Oh and LE…(and please dont take this as a thread derailment, just a tongue in cheek anecdote given previous comments!) I found this ironic quote from former Israeli Air Forces member and Whaling activist Mr Ady Gil (financial backer of the ‘Ady Gil’)
“In Africa, it’s OK to shoot poachers in Kenya. They tell them not to kill the elephants and they still kill the elephants. They say if you continue to kill the elephants, we’re going to shoot you – and they do. Is the next step for someone to go down there and shoot the Japanese? Is that where it needs to get to in order to stop it?” he asks.
“If I pulled a knife here and demanded money,” he says, nodding at the crowd of James St latte lappers, “there would be police here with guns. Guns are how you enforce the law – with power.”
“Proof emerges IDF audio of radio communication with Mavi Marmara is fabricated.” http://aliabunimah.posterous.com/proof-emerges-idf-audio-of-radio-communicatio
“Proof emerges IDF audio of radio communication with Mavi Marmara is fabricated.” http://aliabunimah.posterous.com/proof-emerges-idf-audio-of-radio-communicatio
The Guardian reports that most of the dead were shot multiple times from short or point-blank range, and that five of the nine were shot in only in the back of the head or in the back. One of the dead had been shot with unconventional ammunition. The shootings were conducted over a period of a few minutes at the rate of two per minute. It requires heroic mental gymnastics to imagine five apparently methodical shootings in the back at close range in the course of self defence. I’m sure however that we’ll hear from numerous Olympic-standard mental gymnasts that the Israeli version is pukka.
The Guardian reports that most of the dead were shot multiple times from short or point-blank range, and that five of the nine were shot in only in the back of the head or in the back. One of the dead had been shot with unconventional ammunition. The shootings were conducted over a period of a few minutes at the rate of two per minute. It requires heroic mental gymnastics to imagine five apparently methodical shootings in the back at close range in the course of self defence. I’m sure however that we’ll hear from numerous Olympic-standard mental gymnasts that the Israeli version is pukka.
there you go sublime cowgirl, the activists were defending themselves against executioners. And the evidence that they attacked first, coming from an IDF which fabricated audio recordings, is reliable as…?
this non-violence stance is perhaps unsuited to the context.
there you go sublime cowgirl, the activists were defending themselves against executioners. And the evidence that they attacked first, coming from an IDF which fabricated audio recordings, is reliable as…?
this non-violence stance is perhaps unsuited to the context.
er, no, it wasn’t. It was called the Freedom Flotilla. A subtle but significant difference.
er, no, it wasn’t. It was called the Freedom Flotilla. A subtle but significant difference.
Er.. Wombo, the audio may well be faked, but that link contains no evidence of such.
It contains confirmation that one of the transmissions was from the convoy (just not from the Mavi Marama, and reasonable confirmation that the still photo is taken from a video of IDF officers exchanging radio communication with the convoy.
Er.. Wombo, the audio may well be faked, but that link contains no evidence of such.
It contains confirmation that one of the transmissions was from the convoy (just not from the Mavi Marama, and reasonable confirmation that the still photo is taken from a video of IDF officers exchanging radio communication with the convoy.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/04/gaza-flotilla-activists-autopsy-results
In the case of Dogan, shot from less than 45cm. That’s not self defence, that sounds like an execution to me.
How would Bolt and the RW apologist noise machine like to describe it? Maybe like this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/04/gaza-flotilla-activists-autopsy-results
In the case of Dogan, shot from less than 45cm. That’s not self defence, that sounds like an execution to me.
How would Bolt and the RW apologist noise machine like to describe it? Maybe like this:
I’d say more likely, some IDF soldiers shot in self defense, others (immorally and illegally) in large doses of rage.
I’d say more likely, some IDF soldiers shot in self defense, others (immorally and illegally) in large doses of rage.
Ben Saul outlines some of the legal issues. No surprise that Israel comes out on the wrong side of the law:
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/legal-moves-over-gaza-flotilla-attack-unlikely-20100604-xjdc.html
Ben Saul outlines some of the legal issues. No surprise that Israel comes out on the wrong side of the law:
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/legal-moves-over-gaza-flotilla-attack-unlikely-20100604-xjdc.html
The report linked to by LeftyE @429, a source he had cause to take with caution, looks more and more on the money.
It looks increasingly like targeted executions of most of those on the lead boat, who died, with maybe a couple shot in self-defense.
I will not be surprised if we do not hear too much of this on our local news.
The report linked to by LeftyE @429, a source he had cause to take with caution, looks more and more on the money.
It looks increasingly like targeted executions of most of those on the lead boat, who died, with maybe a couple shot in self-defense.
I will not be surprised if we do not hear too much of this on our local news.
In view of the latest ie autopsies, and prima facie evidence that executions took place, ie there appears to have been a deliberate policy to execute activists,or if otherwise Israel has given little or no attention to proportional use of force even where its legal position in international waters is on shaky ground: Turkey is now in an even stronger position to play hardball.
I have little doubt that Turkey would be “wargaming” its navy escorting a future convoy right to Gaza, on a very strong legal argument of humanitarian dimensions.
If Israel attacked such a ship in such a “protected” convoy, or even a Turkish navy ship, Turkey would be justified in demanding that NATO come to the aid of a member state. The repercussions for NATO not to assist Turkey in such a scenario are too horrendous to contemplate.
Turkey has the “wedge” at its fingertips and this is the outcome of Israel’s momentous blunder.
Knowing all of this, knowing Turkey is seriously pissed off, NATO members might just try to avoid it by persuading even the US to put pressure on Israel to lift the blockade.
I believe that with Turkey holding such trump cards, that the chances of the blockade being lifted soon have increased, substantially.
In view of the latest ie autopsies, and prima facie evidence that executions took place, ie there appears to have been a deliberate policy to execute activists,or if otherwise Israel has given little or no attention to proportional use of force even where its legal position in international waters is on shaky ground: Turkey is now in an even stronger position to play hardball.
I have little doubt that Turkey would be “wargaming” its navy escorting a future convoy right to Gaza, on a very strong legal argument of humanitarian dimensions.
If Israel attacked such a ship in such a “protected” convoy, or even a Turkish navy ship, Turkey would be justified in demanding that NATO come to the aid of a member state. The repercussions for NATO not to assist Turkey in such a scenario are too horrendous to contemplate.
Turkey has the “wedge” at its fingertips and this is the outcome of Israel’s momentous blunder.
Knowing all of this, knowing Turkey is seriously pissed off, NATO members might just try to avoid it by persuading even the US to put pressure on Israel to lift the blockade.
I believe that with Turkey holding such trump cards, that the chances of the blockade being lifted soon have increased, substantially.
Let us work with the premise that the audio recording SATP linked to is completely legit.
Disgusting stuff. Refering to both the Holocaust and 911.
Still, should the punishment for such vile vile speech be summary execution in international waters?
I still don’t understand why Israel didn’t wait until the ship was out of international waters or why they haven’t mounted even a medium defence of it.
Let’s try this.
“We would have waited until the ship was in Gazan waters but then we would have been at risk of rocket attack from the Palestinians.”
There wasn’t so hard was it? And next time, if you’re going to display ‘weapons’ at least drop a pistol on the pile. A ceremonial knife, kitchen knives found in any ship’s galley, heavey tools found in any engineering room and sanding discs are at best improvised.
I mean sanding discs?
I really really want to believe the Israeli side here. Just say it was a botched op. State that your gps was not operating properly and that your fleet assumed they were not in international waters.
Let us work with the premise that the audio recording SATP linked to is completely legit.
Disgusting stuff. Refering to both the Holocaust and 911.
Still, should the punishment for such vile vile speech be summary execution in international waters?
I still don’t understand why Israel didn’t wait until the ship was out of international waters or why they haven’t mounted even a medium defence of it.
Let’s try this.
“We would have waited until the ship was in Gazan waters but then we would have been at risk of rocket attack from the Palestinians.”
There wasn’t so hard was it? And next time, if you’re going to display ‘weapons’ at least drop a pistol on the pile. A ceremonial knife, kitchen knives found in any ship’s galley, heavey tools found in any engineering room and sanding discs are at best improvised.
I mean sanding discs?
I really really want to believe the Israeli side here. Just say it was a botched op. State that your gps was not operating properly and that your fleet assumed they were not in international waters.
No they’re not Peter. The Cold War has been over for twenty years now. The Soviet Union is no more, much as you might regret that. Turkey is already signaling that it is pursuing foreign policies incompatible with those of its NATO allies.
They don’t need it any more. They’ll just cut it loose.
And from that France and Germany will get their “Get Out of Jail Free” card regarding Turkey’s aspirations to membership of the European Union.
The Greeks with their rabid Turkophobia will be delighted and will, just out of spite for the Turks, become Israel’s most vocal supporters in Europe.
No they’re not Peter. The Cold War has been over for twenty years now. The Soviet Union is no more, much as you might regret that. Turkey is already signaling that it is pursuing foreign policies incompatible with those of its NATO allies.
They don’t need it any more. They’ll just cut it loose.
And from that France and Germany will get their “Get Out of Jail Free” card regarding Turkey’s aspirations to membership of the European Union.
The Greeks with their rabid Turkophobia will be delighted and will, just out of spite for the Turks, become Israel’s most vocal supporters in Europe.
This is a good read GregM, I think you are underestimating Turkey’s growing clout:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/04/turkey-israel-gaza-lesson
I fail to see how Turkey’s foreign policies pursuits are becoming “incompatible with those of its NATO allies”. Perhaps you could enlighten us on that.
(I don’t think Greece will be engaging in any prospective schadenfreude whatsoever against Turkey in the near future given their mendicant status right now, they’re probably asking the Turks for loans!)
And its got nothing to do with the cold war, its ultimately the question of whether or not the west will allow Turkey to be alienated over Israel’s latest monumental blunder. And for an insult to a nation that has been of such assistance to Israel recently–and in that context a model global citizen.
This is a good read GregM, I think you are underestimating Turkey’s growing clout:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/04/turkey-israel-gaza-lesson
I fail to see how Turkey’s foreign policies pursuits are becoming “incompatible with those of its NATO allies”. Perhaps you could enlighten us on that.
(I don’t think Greece will be engaging in any prospective schadenfreude whatsoever against Turkey in the near future given their mendicant status right now, they’re probably asking the Turks for loans!)
And its got nothing to do with the cold war, its ultimately the question of whether or not the west will allow Turkey to be alienated over Israel’s latest monumental blunder. And for an insult to a nation that has been of such assistance to Israel recently–and in that context a model global citizen.
Well the M.V. Rachel Corrie has been boarded and it’s on its way to Ashdod. No radio contract with the ship for three of four hours so no one knows whether the activists are O.K.
Once again, might is right, and the Gazans are still under siege despite the best efforts of nearly a thousand people from many countries and many more supporters.
Israel, having had its way with no American censure, may now be tempted to consider nuking Iran.
Kiss your children!
Well the M.V. Rachel Corrie has been boarded and it’s on its way to Ashdod. No radio contract with the ship for three of four hours so no one knows whether the activists are O.K.
Once again, might is right, and the Gazans are still under siege despite the best efforts of nearly a thousand people from many countries and many more supporters.
Israel, having had its way with no American censure, may now be tempted to consider nuking Iran.
Kiss your children!
Wombo, it is not surporising that the article you link to, being from the Sydney Morniong Herald, is riddled with the most basic errors.
I’ll only point out three
The Mavi Marmara is a Comoros Islands registered ship so the Comoros Islands is the Flag State. Not Turkey.
Two points here.
First, the “international community” is a fiction unknown to the law. A court must determine its view on the facts not on the opinion of others and particularly not those of fictitious concoctions such as “the international community”. We call this “The Rule of Law” as opposed to mob rule, something which must have passed Associate Professor Ben Saul by as he undertook whatever legal training he has had.
Secondly, the proportionality of the blockade will attach to the blockade at sea. Since Israel had stated that it would send any humanitarian aid, as opposed to contraband, being carried by the flotilla on to Gaza (although I do wonder at Israel’s definition of this) the question of whether its actions in enforcing the blockade in this instance is disproportionate is moot.
Wombo, it is not surporising that the article you link to, being from the Sydney Morniong Herald, is riddled with the most basic errors.
I’ll only point out three
The Mavi Marmara is a Comoros Islands registered ship so the Comoros Islands is the Flag State. Not Turkey.
Two points here.
First, the “international community” is a fiction unknown to the law. A court must determine its view on the facts not on the opinion of others and particularly not those of fictitious concoctions such as “the international community”. We call this “The Rule of Law” as opposed to mob rule, something which must have passed Associate Professor Ben Saul by as he undertook whatever legal training he has had.
Secondly, the proportionality of the blockade will attach to the blockade at sea. Since Israel had stated that it would send any humanitarian aid, as opposed to contraband, being carried by the flotilla on to Gaza (although I do wonder at Israel’s definition of this) the question of whether its actions in enforcing the blockade in this instance is disproportionate is moot.
GregM re:
Not when it comes to developing customary international law, ie
http://www.irelandinindia.com/home/index.aspx?id=350
That’s the “international community” I think Prof. Saul is alluding to.
Perhaps what GregM means is that the Joe Sixpacks reading Andrew Bolt don’t get to decide questions of fact or law if (ever) Turkey got to prosecute anyone in a domestic court, or elsewhere. In that he would be correct.
(Note BTW that neither Israel nor Turkey has signed the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. If regarded as an act of war by Turkey UNCLOS becomes academic re the flag issue–it then becomes a Geneva Convention argument.)
GregM re:
Not when it comes to developing customary international law, ie
http://www.irelandinindia.com/home/index.aspx?id=350
That’s the “international community” I think Prof. Saul is alluding to.
Perhaps what GregM means is that the Joe Sixpacks reading Andrew Bolt don’t get to decide questions of fact or law if (ever) Turkey got to prosecute anyone in a domestic court, or elsewhere. In that he would be correct.
(Note BTW that neither Israel nor Turkey has signed the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. If regarded as an act of war by Turkey UNCLOS becomes academic re the flag issue–it then becomes a Geneva Convention argument.)
Then, Peter, you do not understand just how obnoxious and reckless the Greeks are.
That’s not to say that the French and the Germans wouldn’t give them a little slack on their loans if they geed up their role as attack dog in keeping Turkey out of the EU.
Of course if Turkey pushed too hard against Israel and in pursuing other foreign policy objectives the US wouldn’t see too much point in continuing their support of Turkey’s EU membership application, which is the carrot they are dangling to keep Turkey in NATO.
In a world where 1.3 billion Chinese and nearly just as many Indians as well as an organised bloc of over 400 million Europeans (I know, I’m being charitable in that description) are forming into participating economic units what happens to Turkey hardly matters.
Here is a good read.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/11/25/how_the_west_lost_turkey
The big long-term winner will be Russia. They hate the Turks and the current ideology the present government of Turkey associates with, a great deal more than the West does. And they are much more unpleasant in expressing their feelings on the matter -reference Chechnya.
Then, Peter, you do not understand just how obnoxious and reckless the Greeks are.
That’s not to say that the French and the Germans wouldn’t give them a little slack on their loans if they geed up their role as attack dog in keeping Turkey out of the EU.
Of course if Turkey pushed too hard against Israel and in pursuing other foreign policy objectives the US wouldn’t see too much point in continuing their support of Turkey’s EU membership application, which is the carrot they are dangling to keep Turkey in NATO.
In a world where 1.3 billion Chinese and nearly just as many Indians as well as an organised bloc of over 400 million Europeans (I know, I’m being charitable in that description) are forming into participating economic units what happens to Turkey hardly matters.
Here is a good read.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/11/25/how_the_west_lost_turkey
The big long-term winner will be Russia. They hate the Turks and the current ideology the present government of Turkey associates with, a great deal more than the West does. And they are much more unpleasant in expressing their feelings on the matter -reference Chechnya.
No Peter. He was referring to the opinion of the “international community” on a matter of fact, not of law.
I know that you struggle with concepts of jurisprudence and simple legal method, such as what are matters of law and what are matters of fact, and I make allowances for that, but this is so basic that I should not have to do so.
No Peter. He was referring to the opinion of the “international community” on a matter of fact, not of law.
I know that you struggle with concepts of jurisprudence and simple legal method, such as what are matters of law and what are matters of fact, and I make allowances for that, but this is so basic that I should not have to do so.
“Alluding to” is what I said GregM, and let’s keep it civil.
“Alluding to” is what I said GregM, and let’s keep it civil.
Netanyahu has already lost.
Egypt has opened the border to Gaza.
Israel’s blockade is as ineffectual as it is brutal.
Victory to ahimsa!
Netanyahu has already lost.
Egypt has opened the border to Gaza.
Israel’s blockade is as ineffectual as it is brutal.
Victory to ahimsa!
Peter I said @360
What I don’t like is the the way that smug and ignorant creatures, and the one above who mentions ahimsa will serve as an example, decide that because they dislike one party in a cause they can fabricate all sorts sordid speculation and untruths, particularly about the law, to advance their case.
You can do that if you want, but I believe that on reflection you’ll think the better of it.
Bear in mind that when we first encountered you were advancing the proposition of the thorough evil of America through its role in the Vietnam war. I happened to be living in Cambodia at the time and the Khmers have a very different view on the unsullied virtue of the Vietnamese than the line you were taking at the time.
I took up their case. They are no angels either but I do not think I was wrong to do so.
I will continue to do so in this matter.
Peter I said @360
What I don’t like is the the way that smug and ignorant creatures, and the one above who mentions ahimsa will serve as an example, decide that because they dislike one party in a cause they can fabricate all sorts sordid speculation and untruths, particularly about the law, to advance their case.
You can do that if you want, but I believe that on reflection you’ll think the better of it.
Bear in mind that when we first encountered you were advancing the proposition of the thorough evil of America through its role in the Vietnam war. I happened to be living in Cambodia at the time and the Khmers have a very different view on the unsullied virtue of the Vietnamese than the line you were taking at the time.
I took up their case. They are no angels either but I do not think I was wrong to do so.
I will continue to do so in this matter.
“I’m quite happy to recognise that this is a dirty little war that has been going on since the foundation of the Jewish state and that both sides have acted in ugly ways throughout. I don’t take a partisan view of it.” Let’s have a round of applause for GregM who made this statement.
For sixty years, the Palestinians have been under brutal occupation and have never known freedom but our armchair hero blames both sides equally. When Hitler occupied Europe I could imagine Greg strutting about saying, “Both sides are to blame. I don’t take a partisan view, chaps!”
Which planet do you live on, Greg?
“I’m quite happy to recognise that this is a dirty little war that has been going on since the foundation of the Jewish state and that both sides have acted in ugly ways throughout. I don’t take a partisan view of it.” Let’s have a round of applause for GregM who made this statement.
For sixty years, the Palestinians have been under brutal occupation and have never known freedom but our armchair hero blames both sides equally. When Hitler occupied Europe I could imagine Greg strutting about saying, “Both sides are to blame. I don’t take a partisan view, chaps!”
Which planet do you live on, Greg?
Katz (jun 5 1108) is correct. Of note, Egypt just passed a law stripping Egyptian citizens married to Israeli citizens of their Egyptian citizenship, something the Muslim Brotehrhood has been after for a while.
This is worth watching very carefully. It’s a distinct ‘wobble’ in the Egyptian-Israeli peace treaty.
Katz (jun 5 1108) is correct. Of note, Egypt just passed a law stripping Egyptian citizens married to Israeli citizens of their Egyptian citizenship, something the Muslim Brotehrhood has been after for a while.
This is worth watching very carefully. It’s a distinct ‘wobble’ in the Egyptian-Israeli peace treaty.
Let’s be frank: the autopsy results have done absolutely nothing to support Israel’s “self-defence” story. All bar one are close range multiple shots, with the majority (5) shot in the back of the head, or the back: suggesting indiscriminate killings.
Note also: “48 others were suffering from gunshot wounds and six activists remained missing, suggesting the death toll may increase.”
*48* others? This is an astounding figure – and suggests an indiscriminate, ill-disciplined and cowardly bloodbath ensued. From what we know of the number of people on deck, this would have had to taken the form of chasing non-hostile protestors down inside the vessel and shooting them, defenceless.
http://www.theage.com.au/world/flotilla-dead-shot-at-close-range-autopsies-20100605-xlvs.html
Let’s be frank: the autopsy results have done absolutely nothing to support Israel’s “self-defence” story. All bar one are close range multiple shots, with the majority (5) shot in the back of the head, or the back: suggesting indiscriminate killings.
Note also: “48 others were suffering from gunshot wounds and six activists remained missing, suggesting the death toll may increase.”
*48* others? This is an astounding figure – and suggests an indiscriminate, ill-disciplined and cowardly bloodbath ensued. From what we know of the number of people on deck, this would have had to taken the form of chasing non-hostile protestors down inside the vessel and shooting them, defenceless.
http://www.theage.com.au/world/flotilla-dead-shot-at-close-range-autopsies-20100605-xlvs.html
Lefty, when the IDF took all the cameras, videos, films and cards on the Turkish ship it was evident that they had been up to no good. As in Jenin, they didn’t want any evidence of their brutality to exist.
Problem is that multiple holes in bodies and the fact that some activists are unaccounted for suggests that the most moral army in the world are (call me ‘partisan’ if you will) a mob of brutal bastards.
As well, the IDF are used to herding Palestinian men, women and children or firing missiles from the safety of an Apache helicopter or F-16 so the fact that some of the activists fought back must have come as a terrible shock to them.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out over the coming months and what the investigation by Israel and the U.S. (surely a completely non-partisan event) will find.
P.S. Perhaps Greg could volunteer to be part of the investigation.
Lefty, when the IDF took all the cameras, videos, films and cards on the Turkish ship it was evident that they had been up to no good. As in Jenin, they didn’t want any evidence of their brutality to exist.
Problem is that multiple holes in bodies and the fact that some activists are unaccounted for suggests that the most moral army in the world are (call me ‘partisan’ if you will) a mob of brutal bastards.
As well, the IDF are used to herding Palestinian men, women and children or firing missiles from the safety of an Apache helicopter or F-16 so the fact that some of the activists fought back must have come as a terrible shock to them.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out over the coming months and what the investigation by Israel and the U.S. (surely a completely non-partisan event) will find.
P.S. Perhaps Greg could volunteer to be part of the investigation.
Resistance to the IDF, a shock, David G? From my reading they practically had a full scale retreat before the helicopter attack, they were so terrified of Arabs/Turks/the rest standing up to them. Like you said, good at killing women and children and unarmed civilians, but useless for anything else.
Resistance to the IDF, a shock, David G? From my reading they practically had a full scale retreat before the helicopter attack, they were so terrified of Arabs/Turks/the rest standing up to them. Like you said, good at killing women and children and unarmed civilians, but useless for anything else.
Uri Avnery at http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1275739480/ recalls the Exodus incident of 1947, where the British similarly boarded and violently seized a ship in the same waters carrying Jewish refugees intending to break a blockade. He argues that, just as the repercussions of the ’47 incident forced a British climbdown, so too will this contribute to the lifting of the Gaza siege. We’ll see.
In the meantime, it would be useful I reckon to highlight some of the detail of the siege and occupation system, such as the list of prohibited products, and of the list’s flexibility depending on Israeli economic interests. The connection of this list to fighting terrorism is tenuous at best. As a strategy to weaken Hamas, the siege has dismally failed. The image of Israel as a swaggering bully has replaced the image of plucky little Israel across much of the world. Israeli institutions have been corrupted in the maintenance of what is coming more and more to look like an apartheid state, with several sets of laws dependent on location, security designation and ethno-religious status. The potential for land developers and wall construction companies to cash in on the settlement policy, with its supply of free (for the developer) land and generous subsidies, has seen corruption investigations and convictions at the heart of government. When government actions directly enrich officials’ families, the look is not good.
Aggrieved Palestinians can win a court case stopping demolition of their houses or confiscation of their farmland, only to have the occupation authorities immediately overturn the decision by a declaration of the property as a military zone. In parts of the land under Israeli control, the Ottoman empire’s laws are held to be in force and are interpreted by Israeli courts in cases involving Palestinians’ property. The practice of cherry-picking laws is not confined to discussions about Israel’s compliance with international law.
Uri Avnery at http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1275739480/ recalls the Exodus incident of 1947, where the British similarly boarded and violently seized a ship in the same waters carrying Jewish refugees intending to break a blockade. He argues that, just as the repercussions of the ’47 incident forced a British climbdown, so too will this contribute to the lifting of the Gaza siege. We’ll see.
In the meantime, it would be useful I reckon to highlight some of the detail of the siege and occupation system, such as the list of prohibited products, and of the list’s flexibility depending on Israeli economic interests. The connection of this list to fighting terrorism is tenuous at best. As a strategy to weaken Hamas, the siege has dismally failed. The image of Israel as a swaggering bully has replaced the image of plucky little Israel across much of the world. Israeli institutions have been corrupted in the maintenance of what is coming more and more to look like an apartheid state, with several sets of laws dependent on location, security designation and ethno-religious status. The potential for land developers and wall construction companies to cash in on the settlement policy, with its supply of free (for the developer) land and generous subsidies, has seen corruption investigations and convictions at the heart of government. When government actions directly enrich officials’ families, the look is not good.
Aggrieved Palestinians can win a court case stopping demolition of their houses or confiscation of their farmland, only to have the occupation authorities immediately overturn the decision by a declaration of the property as a military zone. In parts of the land under Israeli control, the Ottoman empire’s laws are held to be in force and are interpreted by Israeli courts in cases involving Palestinians’ property. The practice of cherry-picking laws is not confined to discussions about Israel’s compliance with international law.
Israel admits that it doctored audio, then lies again, and again, and again…
http://maxblumenthal.com/2010/06/idf-admits-it-doctored-flotilla-audio-clip-washington-posts-kessler-must-retract/
Israel admits that it doctored audio, then lies again, and again, and again…
http://maxblumenthal.com/2010/06/idf-admits-it-doctored-flotilla-audio-clip-washington-posts-kessler-must-retract/
Right across the world, Israel is being discussed, not for its nobility or its generosity or compassion but for its bastardry.
How has this piddling, brutal, racist rogue state managed to get under the world radar for so long? How has it managed to ignore international law, U.N. Resolutions, Human Rights Conventions continuously with no punishment?
How has it managed to occupy the Palestinians for three-score years, take their land, put them under siege, starve them, carry out collective punishment on them, kill their children using snipers, take their taxes, bomb them, imprison them without trial, rain missiles down upon them, build concrete walls to divide them, destroy their orchards and farms, demolish their houses, take from them their freedom and all hope?
And now Israel has stopped the aid convoy using force and is planning to investigate itself with the help of America, its principal supporter and aid giver. What a joke! Simultaneously, it is considering nuking Iran.
When is the world going to find its conscience and its backbone and stand up to Israel and America and stop them both in their imperial tracks?
If it doesn’t, we could well have no world!
Right across the world, Israel is being discussed, not for its nobility or its generosity or compassion but for its bastardry.
How has this piddling, brutal, racist rogue state managed to get under the world radar for so long? How has it managed to ignore international law, U.N. Resolutions, Human Rights Conventions continuously with no punishment?
How has it managed to occupy the Palestinians for three-score years, take their land, put them under siege, starve them, carry out collective punishment on them, kill their children using snipers, take their taxes, bomb them, imprison them without trial, rain missiles down upon them, build concrete walls to divide them, destroy their orchards and farms, demolish their houses, take from them their freedom and all hope?
And now Israel has stopped the aid convoy using force and is planning to investigate itself with the help of America, its principal supporter and aid giver. What a joke! Simultaneously, it is considering nuking Iran.
When is the world going to find its conscience and its backbone and stand up to Israel and America and stop them both in their imperial tracks?
If it doesn’t, we could well have no world!
Come again?
Come again?
Brett at 482:
It is amusing trying to work out which one is Marilyn Shepherd, I think we have a pseudonymous contender in David G.
Brett at 482:
It is amusing trying to work out which one is Marilyn Shepherd, I think we have a pseudonymous contender in David G.
I didn’t know who Marilyn Shepherd was until you pointed her out, Frank, so I googled her and found one of her articles to be quite interesting, pointing out the cruelty of the early Zionists. If you don’t like that, then that probably means that you are an enabler and apologist for the Jewish state, so why don’t you just FUCK OFF.
I didn’t know who Marilyn Shepherd was until you pointed her out, Frank, so I googled her and found one of her articles to be quite interesting, pointing out the cruelty of the early Zionists. If you don’t like that, then that probably means that you are an enabler and apologist for the Jewish state, so why don’t you just FUCK OFF.
Silkworm, Marilyn is a former Democrats staffer; a fairly fierce advocate/activist for refugees and also has big problems with the US and Israel,let alone slack and idle aussies who didn’t have her tough upbringing. She’s a serial blogger and newspaper letter writer, and is one of the few Australians to have been be slagged in person by an “Oz” editorial.
Naturally, this forthright lady is not popular with those who’ve tangled with her at blogsites online; she’s no wallflower. Worst of all, for at least some of her opponents, she can also think.
Silkworm, Marilyn is a former Democrats staffer; a fairly fierce advocate/activist for refugees and also has big problems with the US and Israel,let alone slack and idle aussies who didn’t have her tough upbringing. She’s a serial blogger and newspaper letter writer, and is one of the few Australians to have been be slagged in person by an “Oz” editorial.
Naturally, this forthright lady is not popular with those who’ve tangled with her at blogsites online; she’s no wallflower. Worst of all, for at least some of her opponents, she can also think.
Frank, you probably don’t realize that, if a commenter’s name is highlighted in purple, it means they have a website. You’ll find me at Dangerous Creation, a blog which has been running in one form or another for years.
You’ll also find that I am very much against the Nazi-like Jewish State and fear that it will soon lead the world into a nuclear war.
If you are an enabler and apologist for the rogue State of Israel then I agree with Silkworm’s sentiments.
Frank, you probably don’t realize that, if a commenter’s name is highlighted in purple, it means they have a website. You’ll find me at Dangerous Creation, a blog which has been running in one form or another for years.
You’ll also find that I am very much against the Nazi-like Jewish State and fear that it will soon lead the world into a nuclear war.
If you are an enabler and apologist for the rogue State of Israel then I agree with Silkworm’s sentiments.
Gaza in Plain Language
Gaza in Plain Language
Silkworm,
thankyou for your kind comments, I am touched. I suggest you research the woman further, I suspect there is much material that you can use if you do so.
David G,
my apologies for the hyperlinks thing, must have been a blonde moment. Just the subtlety and general tenor of your remarks struck me as reminiscent of her writings. But as per Paul Walter’s bio of her above, this should be no cause for concern.
Silkworm,
thankyou for your kind comments, I am touched. I suggest you research the woman further, I suspect there is much material that you can use if you do so.
David G,
my apologies for the hyperlinks thing, must have been a blonde moment. Just the subtlety and general tenor of your remarks struck me as reminiscent of her writings. But as per Paul Walter’s bio of her above, this should be no cause for concern.
Frank, you are obviously about half as clever as you think you are. No, sorry, I take it back.
You are obviously one quarter as clever as you think you are. And that’s on one of your good days.
Sadly, there are several on LP in your bottom-feeder league. They too put words together that mean nothing!
Frank, you are obviously about half as clever as you think you are. No, sorry, I take it back.
You are obviously one quarter as clever as you think you are. And that’s on one of your good days.
Sadly, there are several on LP in your bottom-feeder league. They too put words together that mean nothing!
Well as expected it is all coming out. The Israeli backwards and forwards should be embarrasing to them. They can’t even get a consistent propaganada story going.
The authorities mud slinging had gone to (and possibly beyond) the Monty Python stage (Iran has been mentioned, Iran?). With each announcemnt credibility drops even further, now to the point where only a US Congressman or Senator can believe it. http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/101641-top-goper-to-introduce-resolution-defending-israel-against-flotilla-criticism
The claims of IDF forces being shot .. but no one shown gloriously on TV with a bullet wound?
The report of the IDF Sergeant who claims to have killed 6 passengers.
The bullet wounds, so many to the head, one from the top of the head, a few from the back of the head (thats really bad, either an execution style or shooting someone running away, from the distance estimates … execution).
Still the lack of info on the wounded. And of course the still missing ones.
With all the photos and videos confiscated the IDF can’t some up with something photoshopped that looks half decent for their story?
Basically these, and others, all back a narritive of an attempted boarding from the sea which was being repulsed. An air dropped boarding backed by shots, at least one passenger killed at that time (shot thorugh the top of his head). Then a confused fracas with passengers fighting desperately, many literally for their lives, against armed soldiers who killed people right in front of their eyes.
I said at the time, no one (not you or me) fights against someone with a gun unless you are in mortal fear of your life and you have nothing to lose. You fight through total desperation.
Some wins for the passengers side though: see http://humanrightstv.blogspot.com/2010/06/defenders-of-mavri-mamarra.html
Perhaps those soldiers might have learned something.
Can’t wait for the Wikileaks. Someone in the IDF will be so disgusted that they will blow the whistle.
Well as expected it is all coming out. The Israeli backwards and forwards should be embarrasing to them. They can’t even get a consistent propaganada story going.
The authorities mud slinging had gone to (and possibly beyond) the Monty Python stage (Iran has been mentioned, Iran?). With each announcemnt credibility drops even further, now to the point where only a US Congressman or Senator can believe it. http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/101641-top-goper-to-introduce-resolution-defending-israel-against-flotilla-criticism
The claims of IDF forces being shot .. but no one shown gloriously on TV with a bullet wound?
The report of the IDF Sergeant who claims to have killed 6 passengers.
The bullet wounds, so many to the head, one from the top of the head, a few from the back of the head (thats really bad, either an execution style or shooting someone running away, from the distance estimates … execution).
Still the lack of info on the wounded. And of course the still missing ones.
With all the photos and videos confiscated the IDF can’t some up with something photoshopped that looks half decent for their story?
Basically these, and others, all back a narritive of an attempted boarding from the sea which was being repulsed. An air dropped boarding backed by shots, at least one passenger killed at that time (shot thorugh the top of his head). Then a confused fracas with passengers fighting desperately, many literally for their lives, against armed soldiers who killed people right in front of their eyes.
I said at the time, no one (not you or me) fights against someone with a gun unless you are in mortal fear of your life and you have nothing to lose. You fight through total desperation.
Some wins for the passengers side though: see http://humanrightstv.blogspot.com/2010/06/defenders-of-mavri-mamarra.html
Perhaps those soldiers might have learned something.
Can’t wait for the Wikileaks. Someone in the IDF will be so disgusted that they will blow the whistle.
is
Let’s see, if they had previously been told the ships had to dock and be inspected, they had no other intention other than creating further unrest within the province. If they represented or supported a organisation within Papua who’s stated aim is the total destruction of the unitary state of Indonesia. If they represented or supported an organisation that once in power has made it clear that will be the very last democratic election.
I don’t know what I else I would be but I would not be surprised if the protesting coconuts ended up in an Indonesia prison (going rate for such crimes is currently 20 years by the way).
is
Let’s see, if they had previously been told the ships had to dock and be inspected, they had no other intention other than creating further unrest within the province. If they represented or supported a organisation within Papua who’s stated aim is the total destruction of the unitary state of Indonesia. If they represented or supported an organisation that once in power has made it clear that will be the very last democratic election.
I don’t know what I else I would be but I would not be surprised if the protesting coconuts ended up in an Indonesia prison (going rate for such crimes is currently 20 years by the way).
Old Skeptic, nothing, but nothing embarrasses the Israelis. They exist on another plane to us mere mortals, we children of a lesser god.
Don’t hold your breathe waiting for a whistle-blower. They stick together, like poop to a baby’s blanket.
Old Skeptic, nothing, but nothing embarrasses the Israelis. They exist on another plane to us mere mortals, we children of a lesser god.
Don’t hold your breathe waiting for a whistle-blower. They stick together, like poop to a baby’s blanket.
yeah oigal, if you make up a whole bunch of lies about the people before you shoot them, I suppose the justification looks better, doesn’t it?
yeah oigal, if you make up a whole bunch of lies about the people before you shoot them, I suppose the justification looks better, doesn’t it?
This might be of interest.
http://www.metafilter.com/92601/Another-one-under-the-bus
This might be of interest.
http://www.metafilter.com/92601/Another-one-under-the-bus
Helen Thomas is the first American in some time to say something really sensible about the Palestinian/Israeli issue.
While Israel remains where it is (and it has plans for expanding further), and uses its American supplied weapons to dictate to the Palestinians and its neighbours, there will be constant trouble.
To put it frankly: Israel is a pain in the arse!
Helen Thomas is the first American in some time to say something really sensible about the Palestinian/Israeli issue.
While Israel remains where it is (and it has plans for expanding further), and uses its American supplied weapons to dictate to the Palestinians and its neighbours, there will be constant trouble.
To put it frankly: Israel is a pain in the arse!
Helen Thomas said that Israelis should go back to germany. Imagine how outraged we’d be if she had told Obama to go back to Africa. She was called on it. She apologised. She resigned.
Helen Thomas said that Israelis should go back to germany. Imagine how outraged we’d be if she had told Obama to go back to Africa. She was called on it. She apologised. She resigned.
If she’d said ‘get out of Palestine and go back to Israel’ it would have been a point well made.
If she’d said ‘get out of Palestine and go back to Israel’ it would have been a point well made.
Actually it’s not the same as telling Obama to go back to Africa. It’s more like telling all ‘non-indigenous’ Americans or Australians to go back to where their immigrant forebears came from and leave the land to those they dispossessed. We’d be outraged at telling Obama to go back to Africa because we’d perceive it as racist, targeting African Americans.
The difference between Israel and the USA and Australia is in the time passed and the resolution or acceptance of the current status quo. Perhaps Israel is doing to Palestinians what we did to Aboriginals in the 19th Century and Americans did to native Americans (although I think it’s probably worse, maybe just because modern technology enables more) but that definitely doesn’t make it right.
That doesn’t mean Helen Thomas is right but Israel will only get acceptance of its existence if it stops oppressing the Palestinians. Oppression alone will only work through genocide. Both sides are locked into conflict. Israel as the stronger party has the greater responsibility to break the pattern.
Actually it’s not the same as telling Obama to go back to Africa. It’s more like telling all ‘non-indigenous’ Americans or Australians to go back to where their immigrant forebears came from and leave the land to those they dispossessed. We’d be outraged at telling Obama to go back to Africa because we’d perceive it as racist, targeting African Americans.
The difference between Israel and the USA and Australia is in the time passed and the resolution or acceptance of the current status quo. Perhaps Israel is doing to Palestinians what we did to Aboriginals in the 19th Century and Americans did to native Americans (although I think it’s probably worse, maybe just because modern technology enables more) but that definitely doesn’t make it right.
That doesn’t mean Helen Thomas is right but Israel will only get acceptance of its existence if it stops oppressing the Palestinians. Oppression alone will only work through genocide. Both sides are locked into conflict. Israel as the stronger party has the greater responsibility to break the pattern.
For any group of people to argue that, “We were there 2,000 years ago so we, the descendants, have a right to take back the land where our ancient ancestors once lived,” defies commonsense, reality and logic.
Modern day Jews, whose genealogy cannot possibly be substantiated, have no right to claim Palestine. None!
For any group of people to argue that, “We were there 2,000 years ago so we, the descendants, have a right to take back the land where our ancient ancestors once lived,” defies commonsense, reality and logic.
Modern day Jews, whose genealogy cannot possibly be substantiated, have no right to claim Palestine. None!
The Israeli govt just put out a youtube video mocking the dead, and when there was outrage they retracted it, though they made clear they still agree with it.
presumably we can assume about them the same motives as were assumed about Thomas, i.e. that they really do believe in mocking the dead and making light of what was obviously extra-judicial execution.
They’re a cruel mob, those at the top of the Israeli pile, and these are the people we’re being asked to think can make rational decisions about the future of Gaza.
The Israeli govt just put out a youtube video mocking the dead, and when there was outrage they retracted it, though they made clear they still agree with it.
presumably we can assume about them the same motives as were assumed about Thomas, i.e. that they really do believe in mocking the dead and making light of what was obviously extra-judicial execution.
They’re a cruel mob, those at the top of the Israeli pile, and these are the people we’re being asked to think can make rational decisions about the future of Gaza.
Equally importantly, SG, these are the people who are threatening to nuke Iran because it may, in the future, threaten Israel’s military supremacy in the region.
Equally importantly, SG, these are the people who are threatening to nuke Iran because it may, in the future, threaten Israel’s military supremacy in the region.
On any ethical scale, the government of Israel has to come in ahead of the government of Iran.
On any ethical scale, the government of Israel has to come in ahead of the government of Iran.
is that so, SATP?
You know, when your nation ends up in internet arguments about whether they’re comparable to Iran or not, you know you’re in trouble.
is that so, SATP?
You know, when your nation ends up in internet arguments about whether they’re comparable to Iran or not, you know you’re in trouble.
Sg, you have confused the phrases “compare with” and “liken to”. I thought the “internet argument” here was about Israel nuking (i.e. destroying) Iran. Be rather a change for Israel to be likened to someone other than the more regularly preferred option of Nazi Germany.
Sg, you have confused the phrases “compare with” and “liken to”. I thought the “internet argument” here was about Israel nuking (i.e. destroying) Iran. Be rather a change for Israel to be likened to someone other than the more regularly preferred option of Nazi Germany.
So, SATP, your point is? That it’s therefore ok for Israel to use nuclear weapons against Iran? You raised the issue in response to a post lamenting Israel’s scarcely veiled threats to do just this, so it’s a fair inference. And would, given the inevitable massive civilian casualties, Israel continue to hold any ethical advantage over the Mullahs on your calculus?
So, SATP, your point is? That it’s therefore ok for Israel to use nuclear weapons against Iran? You raised the issue in response to a post lamenting Israel’s scarcely veiled threats to do just this, so it’s a fair inference. And would, given the inevitable massive civilian casualties, Israel continue to hold any ethical advantage over the Mullahs on your calculus?
Iran do seem to care what the rest of the world think about them. Israel just assume that the USA will protect them in spite of everything they do. Maybe that’s just PR. Both are religious states but one seems to be getting more liberal and one increasingly belligerent. Probably still more freedom in Israel unless you’re a Palestinian.
Iran do seem to care what the rest of the world think about them. Israel just assume that the USA will protect them in spite of everything they do. Maybe that’s just PR. Both are religious states but one seems to be getting more liberal and one increasingly belligerent. Probably still more freedom in Israel unless you’re a Palestinian.
I didn’t make that argument, SATP.
I didn’t make that argument, SATP.
Iran and Turkey are teaming up to breach the Gaza blockade!
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/06/07/2920852.htm?section=justin
Iran and Turkey are teaming up to breach the Gaza blockade!
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/06/07/2920852.htm?section=justin
HELEN THOMAS IS RIGHT! There was no reason why problems for Jews in Europe should be offloaded and displace people of other religions in Palestine. As a daughter of Lebanon Helen would deeply feel the suffering from Israel’s periodic bombing of Lebanon back to the middle ages. I am also sick of hearing about two state solution back to the 1967 borders. What about all those Palestinians in Lebanon, and other Arab states, in refugee camps since 1948 waiting for the ‘right of return’?
HELEN THOMAS IS RIGHT! There was no reason why problems for Jews in Europe should be offloaded and displace people of other religions in Palestine. As a daughter of Lebanon Helen would deeply feel the suffering from Israel’s periodic bombing of Lebanon back to the middle ages. I am also sick of hearing about two state solution back to the 1967 borders. What about all those Palestinians in Lebanon, and other Arab states, in refugee camps since 1948 waiting for the ‘right of return’?
Helen Thomas was wrong. Her apology and resignation says as much.
Helen Thomas was wrong. Her apology and resignation says as much.
NanaLevu, Helen Thomas was indeed RIGHT.
She’s been forced out for telling the sort of uncomfortable truth that proprietors and the politicians have trained younger journalists to avoid thru self-censorship. For some reason I sense a resonance here with Robert Merkel’s new “fired” thread, as to the tentacles of the system.
NanaLevu, Helen Thomas was indeed RIGHT.
She’s been forced out for telling the sort of uncomfortable truth that proprietors and the politicians have trained younger journalists to avoid thru self-censorship. For some reason I sense a resonance here with Robert Merkel’s new “fired” thread, as to the tentacles of the system.
This has gone from tragedy to farce, see:
http://news.antiwar.com/2010/06/13/israel-75-al-qaeda-mercenaries-on-aid-ship/
“Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon appeared on CNN’s “GPS” show today, and once again changed the official story related to the Israeli attack on the Mavi Marmara aid ship two weeks ago.
Danny AyalonAyalon now claims that 75 al-Qaeda linked mercenaries were on board the ship, heavily armed, and that they ambushed the Israeli troops before their eventual capture.
Last week Israel’s official story was that 50 members of the Turkish military were on board the ship, armed with assault rifles. It is unclear if Ayalon’s 75 al-Qaeda are in addition to the 50 Turkish troops or not. The 50 troops were themselves a revision from the initial story that the crew attacked them with makeshift bats.”
And: http://jonathanturley.org/2010/06/08/hoax-video-showing-heavy-weapons-discovered-on-mavi-marmara-is-a-fraud/
“A video has been racing around the Internet — purportedly showing heavy weapons discovered behind bags of flour on the Mavi Marmara. The find would serve to justify the lethal raid on the flotilla to Gaza and some posters have asked why no uproar? The answer is because the video is a fraud — it shows a boat that was actually searched in 2009.”
This has gone from tragedy to farce, see:
http://news.antiwar.com/2010/06/13/israel-75-al-qaeda-mercenaries-on-aid-ship/
“Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon appeared on CNN’s “GPS” show today, and once again changed the official story related to the Israeli attack on the Mavi Marmara aid ship two weeks ago.
Danny AyalonAyalon now claims that 75 al-Qaeda linked mercenaries were on board the ship, heavily armed, and that they ambushed the Israeli troops before their eventual capture.
Last week Israel’s official story was that 50 members of the Turkish military were on board the ship, armed with assault rifles. It is unclear if Ayalon’s 75 al-Qaeda are in addition to the 50 Turkish troops or not. The 50 troops were themselves a revision from the initial story that the crew attacked them with makeshift bats.”
And: http://jonathanturley.org/2010/06/08/hoax-video-showing-heavy-weapons-discovered-on-mavi-marmara-is-a-fraud/
“A video has been racing around the Internet — purportedly showing heavy weapons discovered behind bags of flour on the Mavi Marmara. The find would serve to justify the lethal raid on the flotilla to Gaza and some posters have asked why no uproar? The answer is because the video is a fraud — it shows a boat that was actually searched in 2009.”
The way they are escalating the (amazing) rhetoric. Next weeks Israeli Govt statement:
“Heavily armed battleship paid by Iran and Turkey, ran by AQ terrorists attempted to destory Israel with nuclear shells. Only brave, heavily outnumbered and outgunned IDF forces, with terrible losses, managed,in the barest nick of time, to save the country.
Despite their terrible wounds and huge death toll, IDF soldiers insisted in saving the enemy forces first, with bleeding to death IDF people giving their last drops of blood to save rabid, terrorists. As Sgnt XXXX said, just before he died, take the last drop from me to save that person who tried to nuke my family”.
Well an American Congress critter will believe it.
On a serious note 2 points:
(1) Will NATO survive this?
(2) Has the Israeli Govt become so arrogent (some would argue so insane) that they really believe they can say any old rubbish and be believed by anyone (excepting Congress critters of course)?
The way they are escalating the (amazing) rhetoric. Next weeks Israeli Govt statement:
“Heavily armed battleship paid by Iran and Turkey, ran by AQ terrorists attempted to destory Israel with nuclear shells. Only brave, heavily outnumbered and outgunned IDF forces, with terrible losses, managed,in the barest nick of time, to save the country.
Despite their terrible wounds and huge death toll, IDF soldiers insisted in saving the enemy forces first, with bleeding to death IDF people giving their last drops of blood to save rabid, terrorists. As Sgnt XXXX said, just before he died, take the last drop from me to save that person who tried to nuke my family”.
Well an American Congress critter will believe it.
On a serious note 2 points:
(1) Will NATO survive this?
(2) Has the Israeli Govt become so arrogent (some would argue so insane) that they really believe they can say any old rubbish and be believed by anyone (excepting Congress critters of course)?
Would appear so OldSkeptic.
Would appear so OldSkeptic.
Would appear “OldSkeptic” had a senior moment!
Would appear “OldSkeptic” had a senior moment!
Off topic Steve, deal with the issue.
Off topic Steve, deal with the issue.
So they lie. Well I never could find the commandment that made lying a sin. And of course the belief is that if you lie often enough some poor sods will believe.
” Neither shall you covet your neighbor’s wife. Neither shall you desire your neighbor’s house, or field, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”
The Palestinian neighbor may well have a problem with this, but then lying’s okay innit?
So they lie. Well I never could find the commandment that made lying a sin. And of course the belief is that if you lie often enough some poor sods will believe.
” Neither shall you covet your neighbor’s wife. Neither shall you desire your neighbor’s house, or field, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”
The Palestinian neighbor may well have a problem with this, but then lying’s okay innit?
Hey, Zorronsky.
“Thou shalt not bear false witness.” No. 8, I think, for Catholics, anyway.
Hey, Zorronsky.
“Thou shalt not bear false witness.” No. 8, I think, for Catholics, anyway.