« profile & posts archive

This author has written 750 posts for Larvatus Prodeo.

Return to: Homepage | Blog Index

21 responses to “Domestic aviation and a carbon price”

  1. Fran Barlow

    AIUI, jets use a lot of fuel simply waiting on the tarmac. Some of this may be needed to test the engine and other emergency systems, but one can easily imagine electric vehicles dragging them into position.

    I also understand that if the jets fligh higher, this also reduces fuel (there being less drag and turbulence).

  2. Duncan

    “Even then, changes to flight practices and known technology could eliminate much of the cost impact.”

    Airlines are in the business of making money.

    Do you seriously think that they currently burn fuel unnecessarily, run inefficient planes (fuel per passenger mile), or fly them at non-optimal altitudes?

    Speculative cost burdens based on flight path will make them move things about, with the burden of a huge amount of infrastructure and useless government.

  3. The Lorax

    Jet fuel is, by international treaty, untaxed.

    A fact not widely known, and yet one of the great crimes against good tax (and climate change) policy. I was under the impression jet fuel for domestic routes was taxed (although far more lightly that road transport fuels) and it was only jet fuel on international routes that was entirely tax free.

    Hands up who would be willing to pay more for next winter’s European holiday? Anyone? Anyone? What about the next month’s academic junket (sorry “conference”) in Mexico? Anyone?

    Nope, didn’t think so…

  4. wilful

    Hands up who would be willing to pay more for next winter’s European holiday? Anyone? Anyone? What about the next month’s academic junket (sorry “conference”) in Mexico? Anyone?

    Nope, didn’t think so…

    Well since I already go to the trouble to purchase offsets for flights, I can say yes, me please. And I’m neither a martyr nor Robinson Crusoe there.

  5. Occam's Blunt Razor

    “QANTAS will be forced to lift international airfares to Europe from next January after being slapped with a penalty by the European Union because Australia does not have a price on greenhouse gas emissions.”

  6. Duncan

    Robert,

    did you read my last para ?

    “Speculative cost burdens based on flight path will make them move things about, with the burden of a huge amount of infrastructure and useless government.”

  7. The Lorax

    wilful @ 6: When I fly domestically I buy offsets as well. Its like $1.73. I don’t for a moment imagine that it offsets the damage it does to the atmosphere, but its all that’s on offer.

    Given that a return flight to Europe pumps more CO2 into the air than a typical car does over an entire year (not to mention the warming effect of contrails) its somewhat surprising that I can buy an offset for a pittance. A year’s worth of road fuel taxes is probably an order of magnitude greater, even though the flight has a greater warming effect.

    But suggest that air travel is massively underpriced in terms of the environmental damage it causes, and you are typically met with abuse, denial, or the topic is completely avoided (as it was by Robert above).

    No-one wants to confront this issue. No-one.

  8. John D

    Ran some figures on air and car travel between Brisbane and Sydney:
    For air:
    Distance=728 km
    Litres/passenger km=0.043 (Airbus A320)
    Tax @10/tonne=$0.85

    For state of art diesel car”
    Distance=925 km (Pacific Highway)
    No. Passengers=4
    Litres/100km=3.0
    Tonnes CO2/passenger for trip=0.019
    Tax @10/tonne=$0.19

    Even if we get to $100/tonne CO2 it is hard to see HSR being justified without serious subsidies. Better to concentrate on improving existing systems. (The Qld tilt train operates at up to 160 km/hr)

  9. billie

    JohnD at first glance your figures demonstrate that air travel is more costly than car travel when we compare tax@$10 per tonne. But how many cars travelling on the Pacific Highway have 4 passsengers?
    How do your calculations prove that high speed rail is not cost effective?

    Surely high speed rail will be attractive when freight companies can make large savings moving containers from the Melbourne to Sydney or Brisbane freight terminals before being offloaded for their suburban journeys. That passengers can be shifted will be a bonus but not a raison d’etre for building the high speed rail link. NB the HSR will need new dedicated realigned track fenced to stop animals straying onto it.

  10. wilful

    Lorax, I buy my offsets from Greenfleet. I’m not suggesting they’re the gold standard, but they’re a lot more than $1.73. You need to do more research. Greenfleet estimate that one long distance flight is 1.9 tonnes of carbon, 5 tonnes of total warming impact. 19 trees, equalling $63. That’s my offset.

    I don’t see you getting any abuse or denial, and I’m sure Robert will address your points if he feels he needs to. Stop being churlish.

  11. Tim Macknay

    Billie @12, I don’t think there is any intention that a high speed freight rail service would carry freight. The point of high speed rail is shorter travel time, for passenger convenience. Most freight doesn’t need to get from Sydney to Melbourne in three hours. Overnight is sufficient. Some of the high speed rail skeptics think the money would be better spent building a more effective low speed freight rail network.

  12. John D

    Billie @12: The figures @12 are to play with. That is why I quoted the figures for a tax of $10/tonne to simplify your arithmetic.
    Even at $100/tonne the tax only adds $8.50 to the air fare. The point I am making is that there are plenty of much more cost effective ways of reducing emissions at this point in the clean-up process. HSR should only proceed if the investment can be justified.

  13. Occam's Blunt Razor

    @8 – Robert, I disagree. It is actually a good reason to say “See you in court”. Aren’t we supposed to be able to rely on International bodies like the WTO to adjudicate whether this sort of protectionism is allowable?

  14. The Lorax

    wilful @ 6: The $1.73 was for a 90 minute domestic flight in Australia. The same distance by car would use at least 40 litres in a very efficient car. The fuel excise is 38c/L, so I’m paying $15.20 in taxes by car.

    Compare that to the recent bleating from the aviation industry about the carbon tax:

    Industry publication Australian Aviation said yesterday that the change would see the excise on avtur increase by 6.604c a litre to 10.16c per litre in 2014-15.

    The excise on avgas will rise by 5.588c per litre to 9.144c a litre in 2014-15.

    I’m guessing that means the current excise is a few cents a litre, or roughly one-tenth the excise for road fuels.

  15. Huggybunny

    This not really about air travel, it is about travel.
    Many of the people who opposed the NBN also oppose the high speed rail services.
    Interesting:
    Both projects will assist in the reduction of CO2 emissions, perhaps they should be honest and join toxic tony in his campaign and stop offering non sufficing “solutions”.
    Huggy

  16. John D

    A consistent theme of much that i write on LP is that climate action should start with the more cost efficient actions in terms of cost per tonne CO2 abatement. The point I am making @16 is that high speed rail is most unlikely to be one of these cost efficient actions.
    By contrast, NBN will reduce emissions by eliminating the need for a lot of travel. Conroy should have included an emission reduction benefit in the case for the NBN.

  17. pablo

    The pricing and tax payable on international jet fuel seems to be one of the more contentious issues facing airlines and governments. Middle eastern airlines flying into Australia must be paying an embarrassingly small price for jet fuel in their home countries if domestic fuel prices such as 10c/ltre in Saudi Arabia apply. It would be interesting to know what effect these international costs might play in domestic transport costs if any. Is the EU application of a tariff on international carriers from non-ETS countries applied differentially? If not then it can’t be long coming, if it has the potential to undermine low C domestic transport options.

Leave a Reply