« profile & posts archive

This author has written 2295 posts for Larvatus Prodeo.

Return to: Homepage | Blog Index

66 responses to “Southpark Good, BB Bad”

  1. Polly

    “but whole new schools and communities which isolate themselves from the degraded mainstream”

    Isn’t that what private schools are already doing?

  2. Polly

    “but whole new schools and communities which isolate themselves from the degraded mainstream”

    Isn’t that what private schools are already doing?

  3. Amanda

    AFAIK, “kaffir” means infidel or similar in Arabic

  4. Amanda

    AFAIK, “kaffir” means infidel or similar in Arabic

  5. Fyodor

    “Kaffir” is the South African racial slur.

    “Kafir” is the Arabic/Islamic word for unbeliever. It doesn’t include followers of the Abrahamic faiths, e.g. Christians and Jews. Surprise, surprise, Devine doesn’t know diddly about language or religion, but at least Mark’s got his masochistic Ms.D fix again.

    Mind you, if Miranda got her boozies out in the shower on Big Allah Uncut I’d probably watch. But I’d be really ashamed of myself. Really.

  6. Fyodor

    “Kaffir” is the South African racial slur.

    “Kafir” is the Arabic/Islamic word for unbeliever. It doesn’t include followers of the Abrahamic faiths, e.g. Christians and Jews. Surprise, surprise, Devine doesn’t know diddly about language or religion, but at least Mark’s got his masochistic Ms.D fix again.

    Mind you, if Miranda got her boozies out in the shower on Big Allah Uncut I’d probably watch. But I’d be really ashamed of myself. Really.

  7. Kate

    The breadth of her inconsistency is astonishing. Someone dig up some of her vituperative comments about Muslims during the gang rape trials a few years ago, please, and quote them back at her.

  8. Kate

    The breadth of her inconsistency is astonishing. Someone dig up some of her vituperative comments about Muslims during the gang rape trials a few years ago, please, and quote them back at her.

  9. Amanda

    What the word might technically mean means less than what the speaker intended, although I do not know what that is in this case. Either one, I’m one. Cool.

  10. Amanda

    What the word might technically mean means less than what the speaker intended, although I do not know what that is in this case. Either one, I’m one. Cool.

  11. Mark

    Is there a word for people who prefer to live in the reality-based community rather than in Miranda’s Pell-based community?

  12. Mark

    Is there a word for people who prefer to live in the reality-based community rather than in Miranda’s Pell-based community?

  13. Kate

    I think we’re degraded monkeys or something, Mark. Amanda, you can be doubly offended!

  14. Kate

    I think we’re degraded monkeys or something, Mark. Amanda, you can be doubly offended!

  15. Mark

    We must be part of the Darwinian-based community, Kate!

  16. Mark

    We must be part of the Darwinian-based community, Kate!

  17. liam hogan

    There is also the problem in a multicultural country like Australia of alienating those cultures that hold to traditional values and religious beliefs about modesty, chastity and self-respect, concepts that used not be alien to the Australian mainstream.

    If Miranda Devine had a scrap of fucking consistency on the topic of multiculturalism I’d have a bit more respect for the editors who commission this shit. First she runs with the line that the backward mussies should get with Western secularism and cast off their headgear, then she switches to arguing that the rest of us should try and respect profound cultural differences and strongly held religious beliefs? That’s not multiculturalism, that’s just two versions of Citoyenne Devine imposing radical behavioural restrictions on the populace.
    Multiculturalism is the idea that any group which attempts to preserve a social, political, religious or other kind of communal life should be able to do so, and have the support and assistance of the State.
    Maybe parents who send their kids to separate schools just want to protect them from ignorant opinionists, not from Big Brother housemates.

  18. liam hogan

    There is also the problem in a multicultural country like Australia of alienating those cultures that hold to traditional values and religious beliefs about modesty, chastity and self-respect, concepts that used not be alien to the Australian mainstream.

    If Miranda Devine had a scrap of fucking consistency on the topic of multiculturalism I’d have a bit more respect for the editors who commission this shit. First she runs with the line that the backward mussies should get with Western secularism and cast off their headgear, then she switches to arguing that the rest of us should try and respect profound cultural differences and strongly held religious beliefs? That’s not multiculturalism, that’s just two versions of Citoyenne Devine imposing radical behavioural restrictions on the populace.
    Multiculturalism is the idea that any group which attempts to preserve a social, political, religious or other kind of communal life should be able to do so, and have the support and assistance of the State.
    Maybe parents who send their kids to separate schools just want to protect them from ignorant opinionists, not from Big Brother housemates.

  19. amanda

    I’d like to express my gratitude to you for reading Miss M so that we don’t have to.

    Way to take one for the team!

  20. amanda

    I’d like to express my gratitude to you for reading Miss M so that we don’t have to.

    Way to take one for the team!

  21. Mark

    I?Äôd have a bit more respect for the editors who commission this shit

    In other columnist news, Gerry has had the boot from the Age. He’s not happy about it.

    I?Äôd like to express my gratitude to you for reading Miss M so that we don?Äôt have to.

    As Fyodor has discerned, it’s my masochistic pleasure!

  22. Mark

    I?Äôd have a bit more respect for the editors who commission this shit

    In other columnist news, Gerry has had the boot from the Age. He’s not happy about it.

    I?Äôd like to express my gratitude to you for reading Miss M so that we don?Äôt have to.

    As Fyodor has discerned, it’s my masochistic pleasure!

  23. liam hogan

    Hendo’s been sacked for being so tedious? I was in a filthy mood before but that’s cheered me up a lot. No… I can imagine, they’ll replace him with just another relic who likes to bring out radical right-wing propaganda while pretending to be a cleaner than clean centrist.
    I can hear Nic White packing his bags

  24. liam hogan

    Hendo’s been sacked for being so tedious? I was in a filthy mood before but that’s cheered me up a lot. No… I can imagine, they’ll replace him with just another relic who likes to bring out radical right-wing propaganda while pretending to be a cleaner than clean centrist.
    I can hear Nic White packing his bags

  25. Amanda

    I am not offended Kate. I am my heresy.

    TimD’s Alternate Hendo today was a hoot.

  26. Amanda

    I am not offended Kate. I am my heresy.

    TimD’s Alternate Hendo today was a hoot.

  27. tony

    But I really don?Äôt have a problem if Miranda wants to home-school her kids in an isolated survivalist community with George Pell, AFA luminaries, and mad Muftis.

    Lets hope their compound has high walls to protect us from them.

  28. tony

    But I really don?Äôt have a problem if Miranda wants to home-school her kids in an isolated survivalist community with George Pell, AFA luminaries, and mad Muftis.

    Lets hope their compound has high walls to protect us from them.

  29. Mark

    Yep, great post from the original Lefty Tim.

  30. Mark

    Yep, great post from the original Lefty Tim.

  31. Amanda

    Im with Hendo on Leunig though. The smugness makes my eyes hurt.

  32. Amanda

    Im with Hendo on Leunig though. The smugness makes my eyes hurt.

  33. Homer Paxton

    Gerry is the best op-ed columinst around.
    Says a lot about the Age.

  34. Homer Paxton

    Gerry is the best op-ed columinst around.
    Says a lot about the Age.

  35. liam hogan

    Says more about you, Homer, I think, that you can cope with his relentless revisionism and application of history to bash the Left.

  36. liam hogan

    Says more about you, Homer, I think, that you can cope with his relentless revisionism and application of history to bash the Left.

  37. liam hogan

    Geez, I really am in a filthy mood today. I’m sorry Homer, that wasn’t called for. Consider me blog-rationed with no posting until I feel more pleasant.

  38. liam hogan

    Geez, I really am in a filthy mood today. I’m sorry Homer, that wasn’t called for. Consider me blog-rationed with no posting until I feel more pleasant.

  39. Antonio

    Fyodor is half-right, “Kaffir” is derived from the Arabic root KFR ( > kufr “non-believer”) meaning ‘non-belief’. The Qur’an seems to be slightly abivalent though about the status of jews and christians (“people of the book” – ummah al-kitab) and whether or not they are kufr.

    Remembering that muslims follow redactional abrogation (naskh) (in the sense that where two sets of Qur’anic verses appear to contradict each other, the latter one prevails), the following quotes from the Qur’an are good contrastive examples of normative exhortations concerning interactions between Muslims and Jews/Christians:

    “O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Whoso of you makes them his friends is one of them…” (5:55)

    “O believers, take not as your friends those of them, who were given the Book before you, and the unbelievers, who take your religion in mockery and as a sport…” (5:60)

    “Dispute not with the People of the Book save in the fairer manner, except for those of them that do wrong; and say, ‘We believe in what has been sent down to us, and what has been sent down to you: Our God and your God is One, and to Him we have surrendered’.” (29:45)

    “The non-believers (kufr) of the People of the Book and the idolators shall be in the Fire of Hell therein dwelling for ever; those are the worst of creatures. But those who believe, and do righteous deeds, those are the best of creatures…” (98:5)

    The concept of “people of the book” is never exhaustively defined in the Qur’an. While book 3 “The house of Imran” is commonly cited as the definitional establishment of “the people of the book” concept, it mainly refers to Allah’s dealings with various figures in early Judaism and Christianity and Muslim’s normative dealings with believers of these religions after the transmission of the Qur’an but it never explicity states who the “people of the book” actually are. In fact, when later muslims encountered Zoroastrianism (based on the Zend-Avesta) and even Hinduism (which they saw as based on the Veda), some of them used the term ummah al-kitab to encompass these groups. More often however, these groups were classified as polytheists/idolators/non-believers.

    Meanwhile, I notice George Pell is using sneaky discourse again! From the same people that brought you the bizarre concept of “Judeo-Christian”, he is now using “children of Abraham”. I guess Judeo-Christo-Islamic didn’t have the same ring to it! But seriously, the whole nomenclature of “Abrahamic religion” has a dirty past. European Aryan theorists from the late 19th century onwards have used the term as a form of derision denoting “Semitic” influence in the history of the Aryan race. To attempt to assimilate three separate religious traditions into one ideological baseball bat is foolish, revisionist and ahistorical.

    Finally, it is worth noting that avid pro-Life and anti-contraception advocates in Islamic and particularly Jewish communities are hard to find. I’m afraid that the fetishization of human reproduction seems to largely be the concern of Catholic and Evangelical hardliners.

  40. Antonio

    Fyodor is half-right, “Kaffir” is derived from the Arabic root KFR ( > kufr “non-believer”) meaning ‘non-belief’. The Qur’an seems to be slightly abivalent though about the status of jews and christians (“people of the book” – ummah al-kitab) and whether or not they are kufr.

    Remembering that muslims follow redactional abrogation (naskh) (in the sense that where two sets of Qur’anic verses appear to contradict each other, the latter one prevails), the following quotes from the Qur’an are good contrastive examples of normative exhortations concerning interactions between Muslims and Jews/Christians:

    “O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Whoso of you makes them his friends is one of them…” (5:55)

    “O believers, take not as your friends those of them, who were given the Book before you, and the unbelievers, who take your religion in mockery and as a sport…” (5:60)

    “Dispute not with the People of the Book save in the fairer manner, except for those of them that do wrong; and say, ‘We believe in what has been sent down to us, and what has been sent down to you: Our God and your God is One, and to Him we have surrendered’.” (29:45)

    “The non-believers (kufr) of the People of the Book and the idolators shall be in the Fire of Hell therein dwelling for ever; those are the worst of creatures. But those who believe, and do righteous deeds, those are the best of creatures…” (98:5)

    The concept of “people of the book” is never exhaustively defined in the Qur’an. While book 3 “The house of Imran” is commonly cited as the definitional establishment of “the people of the book” concept, it mainly refers to Allah’s dealings with various figures in early Judaism and Christianity and Muslim’s normative dealings with believers of these religions after the transmission of the Qur’an but it never explicity states who the “people of the book” actually are. In fact, when later muslims encountered Zoroastrianism (based on the Zend-Avesta) and even Hinduism (which they saw as based on the Veda), some of them used the term ummah al-kitab to encompass these groups. More often however, these groups were classified as polytheists/idolators/non-believers.

    Meanwhile, I notice George Pell is using sneaky discourse again! From the same people that brought you the bizarre concept of “Judeo-Christian”, he is now using “children of Abraham”. I guess Judeo-Christo-Islamic didn’t have the same ring to it! But seriously, the whole nomenclature of “Abrahamic religion” has a dirty past. European Aryan theorists from the late 19th century onwards have used the term as a form of derision denoting “Semitic” influence in the history of the Aryan race. To attempt to assimilate three separate religious traditions into one ideological baseball bat is foolish, revisionist and ahistorical.

    Finally, it is worth noting that avid pro-Life and anti-contraception advocates in Islamic and particularly Jewish communities are hard to find. I’m afraid that the fetishization of human reproduction seems to largely be the concern of Catholic and Evangelical hardliners.

  41. Mindy

    Fyodor – the best bit about watching Devine Miss M in the shower in Big Allah is that you don’t have to feel ashamed. Instead you should be feeling angry that she didn’t cover herself to stop your passions (he he) being inflamed.

  42. Mindy

    Fyodor – the best bit about watching Devine Miss M in the shower in Big Allah is that you don’t have to feel ashamed. Instead you should be feeling angry that she didn’t cover herself to stop your passions (he he) being inflamed.

  43. Fyodor

    Great post, Antonio, though I believe the SA/Afrikaans word “kaffir” has a different (though possibly related) etymology to Kafir/Kufr.

    Mindy, yes, I’m sure it would all be her fault, the shameless hussy.

  44. Fyodor

    Great post, Antonio, though I believe the SA/Afrikaans word “kaffir” has a different (though possibly related) etymology to Kafir/Kufr.

    Mindy, yes, I’m sure it would all be her fault, the shameless hussy.

  45. Robert

    From the Online Etymology Dictionary:

    kaffir
    1790, from Ar. qafir “unbeliever, infidel, impious wretch,” with a lit. sense of “one who does not admit the blessings of God,” from kafara “to cover up, conceal, deny.” Technically, “non-Muslim,” but in Ottoman times it came to be used almost exclusively for “Christian.” Early Eng. missionaries used it as an equivalent of “heathen” to refer to Bantus in South Africa (1792), from which use it came generally to mean “South African black” regardless of ethnicity, and to be a term of abuse since at least 1934.

  46. Robert

    From the Online Etymology Dictionary:

    kaffir
    1790, from Ar. qafir “unbeliever, infidel, impious wretch,” with a lit. sense of “one who does not admit the blessings of God,” from kafara “to cover up, conceal, deny.” Technically, “non-Muslim,” but in Ottoman times it came to be used almost exclusively for “Christian.” Early Eng. missionaries used it as an equivalent of “heathen” to refer to Bantus in South Africa (1792), from which use it came generally to mean “South African black” regardless of ethnicity, and to be a term of abuse since at least 1934.

  47. Fyodor

    From Wikipedia:

    The word kaffir (also keffir or kaffer) is a derogatory term used in South Africa for native Africans. (It was also used historically to refer to the inhabitants of South Africa during the period of colonisation, but this usage is slowly fading away. This second usage is not considered vulgar.)

    It is a counterpart of the English-language word “nigger”. The source of the word is disputed. It has been suggested that the word comes from the Hebrew word for village, “kafar” or “kefar” via Dutch. It may also derive from the merging of a Dutch word meaning “beetle” with the Arabic word kafir, which means an unbeliever in Islam. Arabs had been trading and involved in slavery in southern Africa, applying the term kafir to pagan non-Muslims in the south of the continent. The derogatory Afrikaans usage would have taken over this meaning with the extra offensive connotation that Africans were black pests. The term “Kaffir language” was used to denigrate all native languages in Southern Africa.

    Because both the Muslim and White African usages are pejorative, the term kaffir is often considered to be a culturist and racist term. However in the nineteenth century some anthropologists used it neutrally as a generic term for pagan sub-Saharan African cultures.

  48. Fyodor

    From Wikipedia:

    The word kaffir (also keffir or kaffer) is a derogatory term used in South Africa for native Africans. (It was also used historically to refer to the inhabitants of South Africa during the period of colonisation, but this usage is slowly fading away. This second usage is not considered vulgar.)

    It is a counterpart of the English-language word “nigger”. The source of the word is disputed. It has been suggested that the word comes from the Hebrew word for village, “kafar” or “kefar” via Dutch. It may also derive from the merging of a Dutch word meaning “beetle” with the Arabic word kafir, which means an unbeliever in Islam. Arabs had been trading and involved in slavery in southern Africa, applying the term kafir to pagan non-Muslims in the south of the continent. The derogatory Afrikaans usage would have taken over this meaning with the extra offensive connotation that Africans were black pests. The term “Kaffir language” was used to denigrate all native languages in Southern Africa.

    Because both the Muslim and White African usages are pejorative, the term kaffir is often considered to be a culturist and racist term. However in the nineteenth century some anthropologists used it neutrally as a generic term for pagan sub-Saharan African cultures.

  49. Fyodor

    Sorry, bad link. Use this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaffir

  50. Fyodor

    Sorry, bad link. Use this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaffir

  51. harry

    Who wants a toke of my “excess of individualism”?
    I hear that Miranda doesn’t consider her brush to be big enough these days and now uses a broom.

    Miranda Devine – why conformity is bad.

  52. harry

    Who wants a toke of my “excess of individualism”?
    I hear that Miranda doesn’t consider her brush to be big enough these days and now uses a broom.

    Miranda Devine – why conformity is bad.

  53. Francis Xavier Holden

    amanda I agree Leunig in the last few years has either started smoking sonething strong or stopped smoking it. He is just downright embarrassing. I can’t fathom whats going on. I know he’s shifted to somewhere up around Dayleford – but shit not everyone up there is bonkers.

  54. Francis Xavier Holden

    amanda I agree Leunig in the last few years has either started smoking sonething strong or stopped smoking it. He is just downright embarrassing. I can’t fathom whats going on. I know he’s shifted to somewhere up around Dayleford – but shit not everyone up there is bonkers.

  55. saint

    Kaffir, person of the Book (well at least the corrupted version of the Book that we use according to redactional abrogation), I’m still a dhimmi.

    But back to Miranda. Must be nice to have a gig like hers and get paid so much to do it. You don’t have to express your own opinion much less the truth, just something extreme enough to get the reader’s attention or backs up.

    That’s what I call faith-based journalism (redactional abrogation fully intended).

    Yeah, and Leunig seems to have gone off the edge since he started taking medication. Sad really.

  56. saint

    Kaffir, person of the Book (well at least the corrupted version of the Book that we use according to redactional abrogation), I’m still a dhimmi.

    But back to Miranda. Must be nice to have a gig like hers and get paid so much to do it. You don’t have to express your own opinion much less the truth, just something extreme enough to get the reader’s attention or backs up.

    That’s what I call faith-based journalism (redactional abrogation fully intended).

    Yeah, and Leunig seems to have gone off the edge since he started taking medication. Sad really.

  57. Fyodor

    “I know he?Äôs shifted to somewhere up around Dayleford – but shit not everyone up there is bonkers.”

    Yeah, but most are. The rich ones are called “eccentric”. Leunig is called “wanker”.

  58. Fyodor

    “I know he?Äôs shifted to somewhere up around Dayleford – but shit not everyone up there is bonkers.”

    Yeah, but most are. The rich ones are called “eccentric”. Leunig is called “wanker”.

  59. Amanda

    Appropos of nothing. I see Bolt mentions Hayek in his feedback column today.

  60. Amanda

    Appropos of nothing. I see Bolt mentions Hayek in his feedback column today.

  61. wbb

    Is someone here, having a go at Leunig? What did he do wrong? egs please.

    He’s been about the strongest opponent of the invasion of Iraq going, these last few years, to the extent that I’m not sure he’s had the time to do much else – so am unsure what’s been so offensive?

  62. wbb

    Is someone here, having a go at Leunig? What did he do wrong? egs please.

    He’s been about the strongest opponent of the invasion of Iraq going, these last few years, to the extent that I’m not sure he’s had the time to do much else – so am unsure what’s been so offensive?

  63. Syd

    Just to clear a few things up:

    1. Not all Muslims believe in redactional abrogation – in fact only a small minority do. I’m Muslim myself and all Muslims I know find the idea completely ridiculous.

    Not long after the death of Muhammad, some Arab and non-Arab converts found the ideas of equality between races, genders, slaves/masters and self-appointed clergy/laymen as threatening and tried to introduce various theories of interpretation to safeguard their position.

    This subversion of the meaning of words in the Quran has been so widespread and continuous that Arabic dictionaries will now refer to a distorted interpretation of a word as its primary meaning. As a result, all translations of the Quran are to a great extent flawed. An example: the punishment for a thief should be the freezing of his assets (and the award of compensation to the victim out of such assets), not the cutting off of his hand!

    2. The Arabic word kafir is no more perjorative or derogatory in reference to a non-Muslim as the word Muslim is to a Muslim. The Afrikaans word keffer, on the other hand as we all know, was used in reference to black South Africans as an extremely derogatory word.

    The fact that the two words look and sound similar when written and spoken in English has been used in a wholly unscientific manner to assert that the Arabic word is the source of the Afrikaans word (and by some journalists and politicions to approximate the two words).

    Even if the Arabic word has been twisted by non-Muslim non-Arab Afrikaaners, Muslims do not believe there to be any connection between the two words and do not use the Afrikaans word keffer when referring to non-Muslims. It should also be noted that Muslims played no part in creating, implementing, supporting or sustaining Apartheid.

    (Incidentally, Desmond Tutu and Nelson Mandela have both expressed a view that conditions for Palestinians under the Israeli occupation are worse than those suffered by black South Africans under Apartheid).

    3. I have never heard the word dhimmi used by any Muslims. Until a week ago, I had never heard of it. The only references to it I can find online are from non-Muslims and refer to vague historical tax exemptions for non-Muslims in the Ottoman Empire which are somehow presented as evidence of a sinister secret disdain held by all Muslims for all non-Muslims(!?!).

    4. The Quran expressly tells Muslims to say to non-Muslims you do your thing and I’ll do mine. If that’s not liberal democracy, I don’t know what is.

    Anyone who says that the Muslim way is one of violence and hatred is incorrect. The Quran prohibits the killing of all human beings (except in literal self-defence – even in war). Any murders committed by people who refer to themselves or who are referred to as Muslims are in direct contradiction to the standards set for Muslims in the Quran.

    You will not, however, find a Muslim who says that any such murderers are not Muslim at all. The fact that no Muslim will say that any such murderer is not a Muslim is not in any way an endorsement of the actions of that person. The reason no Muslim should say that a person is not Muslim is because it is prohibited for us to judge who is Muslim and who is not – that is in our belief the purpose of the Day of Judgment.

  64. Syd

    Just to clear a few things up:

    1. Not all Muslims believe in redactional abrogation – in fact only a small minority do. I’m Muslim myself and all Muslims I know find the idea completely ridiculous.

    Not long after the death of Muhammad, some Arab and non-Arab converts found the ideas of equality between races, genders, slaves/masters and self-appointed clergy/laymen as threatening and tried to introduce various theories of interpretation to safeguard their position.

    This subversion of the meaning of words in the Quran has been so widespread and continuous that Arabic dictionaries will now refer to a distorted interpretation of a word as its primary meaning. As a result, all translations of the Quran are to a great extent flawed. An example: the punishment for a thief should be the freezing of his assets (and the award of compensation to the victim out of such assets), not the cutting off of his hand!

    2. The Arabic word kafir is no more perjorative or derogatory in reference to a non-Muslim as the word Muslim is to a Muslim. The Afrikaans word keffer, on the other hand as we all know, was used in reference to black South Africans as an extremely derogatory word.

    The fact that the two words look and sound similar when written and spoken in English has been used in a wholly unscientific manner to assert that the Arabic word is the source of the Afrikaans word (and by some journalists and politicions to approximate the two words).

    Even if the Arabic word has been twisted by non-Muslim non-Arab Afrikaaners, Muslims do not believe there to be any connection between the two words and do not use the Afrikaans word keffer when referring to non-Muslims. It should also be noted that Muslims played no part in creating, implementing, supporting or sustaining Apartheid.

    (Incidentally, Desmond Tutu and Nelson Mandela have both expressed a view that conditions for Palestinians under the Israeli occupation are worse than those suffered by black South Africans under Apartheid).

    3. I have never heard the word dhimmi used by any Muslims. Until a week ago, I had never heard of it. The only references to it I can find online are from non-Muslims and refer to vague historical tax exemptions for non-Muslims in the Ottoman Empire which are somehow presented as evidence of a sinister secret disdain held by all Muslims for all non-Muslims(!?!).

    4. The Quran expressly tells Muslims to say to non-Muslims you do your thing and I’ll do mine. If that’s not liberal democracy, I don’t know what is.

    Anyone who says that the Muslim way is one of violence and hatred is incorrect. The Quran prohibits the killing of all human beings (except in literal self-defence – even in war). Any murders committed by people who refer to themselves or who are referred to as Muslims are in direct contradiction to the standards set for Muslims in the Quran.

    You will not, however, find a Muslim who says that any such murderers are not Muslim at all. The fact that no Muslim will say that any such murderer is not a Muslim is not in any way an endorsement of the actions of that person. The reason no Muslim should say that a person is not Muslim is because it is prohibited for us to judge who is Muslim and who is not – that is in our belief the purpose of the Day of Judgment.

  65. Lefty Elitist

    Very interesting Syd. You should post more often.

    An Iraqi friend of mine (a refugee) explained a bit about Ramadan to me recently. I knew about fasting, but didnt know about the emphasis on doing good deeds and works in that time – spiritual cleansing as he put it.

    I think its probable, given the enourmous extent of Arab trading networks in eastern Africa, that Kaffir is the source of Keffer. But I take your point, meanings / usages change. I think we can safely blame Afrikaans for the recent connotation.

    I also beleive Zanzibar is derived from “Zanj” – Arabic for black.

  66. Lefty Elitist

    Very interesting Syd. You should post more often.

    An Iraqi friend of mine (a refugee) explained a bit about Ramadan to me recently. I knew about fasting, but didnt know about the emphasis on doing good deeds and works in that time – spiritual cleansing as he put it.

    I think its probable, given the enourmous extent of Arab trading networks in eastern Africa, that Kaffir is the source of Keffer. But I take your point, meanings / usages change. I think we can safely blame Afrikaans for the recent connotation.

    I also beleive Zanzibar is derived from “Zanj” – Arabic for black.