I was going to write a post last night about the demos in Minneapolis during the Republican National Convention and the extraordinary levels of repression and police violence, but tiredness got the better of me. But never mind, tigtog’s been thinking on the same lines and has put up a great post at Hoyden. She quotes Glenn Greenwald:
Yet how is our own Government’s behavior in Minnesota any different than what the Chinese did to its protesters during the Olympics (other than the fact that we actually have a Constitution that prohibits such behavior)? And where are all the self-righteous Freedom Crusaders in our nation’s establishment organs who were so flamboyantly criticizing the actions of a Government on the other side of the globe as our own Government engages in the same tyrannical, protest-squelching conduct with exactly the same motives?
<img src="http://larvatusprodeo.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/lindsay-rnc.jpg"
What I found interesting about the reporting of these incidents is that there’s a great use of citizen photojournalism from Lindsay Beyerstein at Majikthise. Beyerstein was there, and she’s posted this photo – of the Poor People’s March – on her blog, with the telling caption:
Do these people look like a ravening mob to you? A few minutes later, the police tear gassed the whole block after pushed the crowd back about a block or two.
You can see all Beyerstein’s photos of the march at her Flickr page.
LOL, only on a lefty blog could protesters smashing shopfronts and throwing bleach at elderly convention deligates be constructed as ‘police violence’.
LOL yourself, Stephen.
A small minority of protesters, disavowed by the march organisers. And the police don’t take action to separate them from the peaceful marchers and contain or arrest them, but instead tear gas everyone.
That’s the whole point of the photos – you get a much better picture of the intentions and conduct of the vast majority of peaceful protesters, as opposed to reading distorted media reports which focus on the actions of a few and imply the protesters were one “mob”. And you can make up your own mind. Or believe what you read in the MSM, of course.
Yes, yes, I know. It’s always the minority who were disavowed by the organisers.
Yet no matter the country, the same minority seem to show up at these protests, and yet the organisers haven’t themselves found a way to handle it. I suspect they don’t really want to handle it, or stop it. They were even present at the Recreate ’68 rally, where even the peaceful protesters managed to get agressive, and borderline violent toward representatives of certain ‘conservative media outlets’.
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Yet how is our own Government’s behavior in Minnesota any different than what the Chinese did to its protesters during the Olympics
Western goverments don’t send protesters to re-education camps, don’t shoot at them, don’t run them down with tanks… there are a couple of differences.
I must have missed the protesters being run down by tanks during the Olympics, TimT.
I think you know what I mean Mark. The way the Chinese government deals with protesters is quite different to the way western governments do.
Liam, guess it’s solidarity forever (at least until I can get a hold of the nearest disassociation form)!
Mark, I think comparing the Chinese treatment of protestors with America’s treatment of the same is a very long bow. You can be angry about what’s hapening at the RNC without making that comparison.
Perhaps I’m particularly sensitive about all this because I grew up in Joh’s Queensland where the repression of public dissent was accompanied by (and part of the same package as) all sorts of other attacks on civil liberties and governance and corruption. It may be that Greenwald’s question is a bit hyperbolic. But it still leaves unanswered the question of why using tear gas on peaceful demonstrators is at all an appropriate response by a supposedly democratic state.
I’d once again – before people get carried away with “look! over there! anarchists!” – recommend that folks look at Beyerstein’s photos and read the commentary. It’s pretty clear that disproportionate force was used indiscriminately.
The crackdown on the protesters is just a storm in a teacup. I don’t see why democracy should be extended to groups whose political opinions I disagree with. It doesn’t affect me if their rights are violated.
Good on the police for showing those protesters that they should have stayed home and just shut up like other good citizens.
Heh!
The bigger picture, here, of course, is why “Western Governments” have moved so quickly in the direction of extraordinarily forceful repressions of public dissent after Seattle in 1999. I’m sure I don’t need to remind people here of all sorts of recent “emergency powers” assumed by the NSW government.
Of course Shaun is completely right. Destroy the bastards!!!
Mark,
I can understand why a veteran of the Joh Street March days might be sensitive, but… did Joh ever send out goons wielding tear gas? water cannon? truncheons? armed soldiers? tanks?
Tien An Men Square “incident” 1989; Democratic National Convention, Chicago, 1968; Left Bank, Paris, 1968; Prague streets, 1968; Mexico City….
aw, you know…..
In Sept 2000 in Melb there was a “small minority” ouside the high fences at Crown Casino who went for the cops physically, and many cops lashed out (with batons etc.) Many non-violent demonstrators got a thumping. Injuries sustained on both sides. It may be pertinent to look at the behaviour of “anti-globalisation protesters” since 1999, AS WELL AS the planning and behaviour of politicians and police forces when they hear a protest is in the offing.
I’m not seeing your point here, not at all, Ambi.
First, tear gas was used at the RNC. I’ll say once again – have a look at the photos. I know people like to comment on stuff without following the links, but that’s what the links are there for.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/majikthise/2823558551/in/set-72157607083829446/
Secondly, is there supposed to be a sliding scale of acceptable repression?
Solidarity forever, TimT, because the conga makes us strong.
Not to mention the batons!
Some interesting stuff on agents provocateurs at the demos from Lindsay B:
http://majikthise.typepad.com/majikthise_/2008/09/anarchists-expo.html
These sort of tactics were used constantly under Joh.
Some interesting stuff on agents provocateurs at the demos from Lindsay B:
Tried and true tactics always. You can sometimes spot the nark at a meeting prior to the demo, but often not until its too late. I was the victim once of just such a creature, and it was interesting talking to him two decades later about how he was recruited, who recruited him, and what he thought he was doing.
Very scary stuff and reasonably recent. The Oz internal security apparatus should never be taken for a joke, and nor shoudl anyone think they have been ‘tamed’ by a post cold war reality check. Keelty and his clowns are simply one manifestation of the proposition that once you give them an inch, they will take your life, liberty and happiness because they can.
Ambigulous, I have no direct knowledge of what things were like in Qld under Jo, but police in other jurisdictions in Australia have certainly used water cannon, horse charges and agents provocateur at various times. Since Qld was a bit backwoods by comparison (at least in the late 60s and early 70s), I think the police response to peaceful protest was limited to batons, fists, boots and serious gaol time.
Unlike in the US (Kent State University), no-one got killed.
David, it’s not entirely true that nobody’s ever been killed at an Australian protest. Take Rothbury:
Jesus, Liam, I’d never heard of it. The fact that it happened nearly 80 years ago certainly doesn’t excuse it, although I’d bet similar things were happening world wide at the time.
And people wonder why the union movement tends to be militant …
So you’re telling us that the Democratic mayors of Minneapolis and St. Paul deployed their respective police departments to quash anti-Republican protest, just like you told us during APEC that the Labor premier of NSW deployed the NSW police to quash anti-Howard protest.
If you truly believe that Democrat and Republican, Labor and Liberal are all just part of the same repressive cabal, then why all the ra-raing for Rudd and Obama? If St Barrack had been in charge he would of given the cops the same brief, and rightfully so.
The reason you “missed the protesters being run down by tanks,” was because, although the tanks were there, not a single person who applied for permission to protest at one of the official Olympic protest parks was granted said permission. Indeed, some were punished just for applying.
Of course they were never really going to send them to the labour camp – they were just going to send the woman’s son in her place.
The Americans who got ten days in a Chinese clink for unfurling a banner will, in all probability, do more time than the most violent offender in Minneapolis.
The difference is that in China, if you criticise the government too harshly, they sell your organs on the open market, where as in the US, they give you a book deal and a contract with Miramax
More here on the agent provocateur theme from Making Light:
http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010537.html#010537
Wired had an article on the protests this morning and how protest footage was growing online.
Thanks, Derek, that’s the point I was trying to make in the post, which seems to have escaped those who’ve imagined hordes of rampaging anarchists based on the media report.
The question was asked – why use tear gas? Because it is the least likely to cause signifcant harm.
Trying the cut out the vioent protestors from a mob is hugely dificult, high risk and often unsuccessful.
Use of more accurate means than gas also increase the likelihood of more adverse outcomes.
I don’t haev a problem with people staging demos as long as they are coordinated with the local authorities and they follow police instructions.
Protestors are very lucky the western police don’t use reasonable force all the time – you use fists – we’ll use batons, you use hand held weapons – we will use baton rounds, you throw molotov cocktails – we will use ball ammunition.
The NSW gov has gone down this path of repression and demonisation of anyone who dares to protest. APEC was a good example of this, with the media just about declaring the sky would fall if the protest was allowed to go ahead.
For me though it was the Cheney protest that really opened my eyes to how far the gov was going with this. A rag tag group of about 100 protesters were surrounded by police and charged on horseback without provocation.
My photos of it are here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/peterbarkla/sets/72157594552996726/detail/
Flickr makes the point that the police action took place prior to Senator Leiberman making an endorsement speech for Republican McCain. This was the Democratic vice presidential candidate behind Al Gore in 2000. Now if you were a rusted on Democrat you would feel your blood pressure rising at the thought of possibly disrupting – peacefully – such a person, particularly where his entire support is based on the divisive Iraq War.
Leiberman should have showed more discretion knowing what passions his actions would stir. Passions which seemed to activate violence in a very few.
McCain should have played statesman and refused the Ohio senator an invitation but then its a pivotal state. Can I say I hope Joe falls under a bus soon or is that incitement?
Turncoats like Leiberman should know what discretion is and
I know this is a left of centre blog, but the DNC was not exactly trouble free either, not that you’d know that from the posts on this site at the time. Or is this sort of thing not a problem when the Dems are in charge?
And they were the same protesters at both conventions.
And you’re supposed to have the shit beaten out of you at Democratic conventions, Paulus. It’s traditional, it’s the Yippie way; it’s the quaternal World Cup for United States radicals, though without the jolly beerishness.
What would Abbie Hoffman say to a peaceful DNC?
Abbie Hoffman is dead, Liam. He wouldn’t say anything.
“…though without the jolly beerishness.”
Unlike the RNC where multi-coloured cocktails and warm orange juice are consumed by worldly lobbyists and tightarsed fundies as they uneasily sniff eachother’s rectums to to the strains of deracinated smooth jazz. Or worse.
The DNC had Stevie Wonder, the RNC had Cowboy Troy. It takes real talent to synthesize the worst of both country rock and hip hop and the RNC, with their usual unerring eye for what’s wrong with US popular culture, found their man.
Well my right to free speech is being brutally censored here by unthinking spam detectors. Where’s my last two posts? It was the Cowboy Troy link that did it right?
When some moderator releases them, just the second one alone would be fine.
Thank you moderators, linesfolks, ballthings.
If anyone bothers to click on that Cowboy Troy link, they’ll discover he has pretty much the same look, feel, overall demeanor and appreciation of women as (NSFW) this guy.
Y’know, what with porn star look and soundalikes performing at a RNC where Veep nominees are being hailed as VPILFs by their own supporters and unmarried teenage mothers are put on display I’m starting to think the Republican Party may well be rediscovering its funk after all. About bloody time.
I bet the Ron Paul alternaconvention across the river would agree the business of America is partying.
Still, neither the Republicans or Libertarians could ever score for their shows the guy who did this.
Wash your htmlcoding and links.
That last link should have been this.
http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=_ul7X5js1vE
And watch how deftly the band fucks around with tempo and time signatures from the middle eight onwards. Only on Sesame Street.
You’re even, Nabakov. The glory of Stevie makes up for the Horror of Troy, the face that will launch a thousand Conference lunches.
Even, but only just.
It would have been about 1990, but one very snowy day while waiting at a train station somewhere in South Korea, I got talking to a US military type on the platform. Back then, riots in Seoul were pretty much an every day occurrence. Discussing this, he reckoned that the police and protested pretty much planned it all out. Even to the level of including how many students will get truncheoned by the police and how many police would cop it from the students.
“Discussing this, he reckoned that the police and protested pretty much planned it all out. Even to the level of including how many students will get truncheoned by the police and how many police would cop it from the students.”
From my own experience of dealing with Koreans, I’d hafta say yes that sounds very Korean. Even by “Hey it’s a globalised world now!” standards, they still remain a very distinctive and unique bunch. Incidentally the only person I’ve ever personally seen killed by other humans was a Korean fisherman who died in such a way that his killers felt so ashamed afterwards. (It’s a long story).
Also South Korea is not just the most online country in the world, it’s also producing some seriously unexpected twists on global culture from its concrete horror movies to stuff like this. I don’t particularly like this song or style of music but I can always recognise when imitation becomes competition. Still it’s not like it’s not Faith No More. Yet.
Mike Patton or Chuck Moseley? Cause it is neither really. Sorta reminds me of Hiro from Heroes singing metal.
For some reason the Hamilton Hotel on Itaewon has popped into my head. Back in those halycon days of the early 90s, I was often advised by ex-Marines. Their advice was never wise but I always had fun.
Love how Stevie’s playing 2 completely different parts on the clavinet. Not just left hand accompanying a right hand melody, but 2 full-blown and virtually unrelated parts.
Oh, and how that’s the best band ever in a room together.
Not to mention the balls-to-the-wall TV limiting, so everytime the bass player fires up everything’s squashed up in your face. Magic.
Thanks, Nabs. Love the toddler getting his groove on in the fire escape. As FDB says, magic.
Fucking hell Nabs.
Where was my “WARNING: NSFW”?
Anyone wishing to be productive today must resist the temptation to follow any of the links from that first clip. Many many hours of StivvyWonnaMusicalGenius await the unwary.