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15 responses to “Sorting out soil carbon”

  1. Ambigulous

    Very welcome news, and thanks for the post. If soil carbon (esp agricultural, managed forests, untouched forests) represents significant stores of C, and significant flows of C, then it’d be foolish to leave those out. How low can we get the “margins of error” thouGH?

    Interesting that nitrous oxide is focussed on. Methane is the gas that’s usually highlighted.

    cheerio

  2. Robert Merkel

    I wonder whether Trevor Wilson is taking into account the methane emitted from his cows.

  3. David Rubie

    It sounds like a move in the right direction, but $1.3 million is a pathetically small amount of money for research. That’s the kind of dough Toyota waste on redesigning their door lock knobs. At what point are they going to get serious?

  4. Mole

    This is a fairly blatant attempt to con/convince farmers they will be recieving money under an ETS scheme rather than paying it. So being able to offset farting sheep with low till farming practices (Which is a good goal in itself, it was recently found that using older mould board plough methods once every 5 or so years was extremely effective in reducing weed growth without chemicals, avoiding resistance problems).

    The self interest of the cockies shows through in much of the ABCs’ reporting on the country hour. Some of the figures are v-large indeed.

    Either cockies are deluding themselves or they are setting themselves up to remove money from ????? to give to themselves.

  5. Brian

    Robert, Trevor Wilson would be and look a complete dill if he wasn’t taking into account the methane from his cows.

    But we don’t know the balance of his operations. Also we don’t know how viable the strategy is long term. On the other thread murph told us that 3% carbon was about the max, or up to 7% in peat style soils. We have no idea what Wilson’s starting and finishing levels of carbon were and whether he can sustain his present claimed level of sequestration for a decade, decades, or centuries.

    My attitude is that if we are going to solve this global warming thing, we’ll need to cast the net wide and measure everything that’s measurable and estimate the rest. How the money flows to encourage and reward desirable behaviour has to be faced. i think notions of seeing this as an attempt on the part of the farmers to milk the public purse are misplaced.

    Nevertheless you would expect every group to stick up for their own interests. And the public generally need to realise that in the longer term food security is going to be an issue. So we need to get the farmers inside the tent if possible on this one.

  6. Ambigulous

    Nitrous oxide?

    The main greenhouse gases emitted from agriculture are methane (CH4) and nitrous oxide (N2O), both powerful gases with 21 and 310 times the global warming potential of carbon dioxide (CO2) respectively. Nationally, agriculture is the dominant source of both methane (60%) and nitrous oxide (84%).

    – Greenhouse in Agriculture, “Project sheet February 2008″, Victorian DPI

  7. andrew_m

    Ambigulous #1 – Yes, methane from livestock is about 11% of Australia’s total emissions. There’s another chunk of the R&D program that’s addressing methane emissions, it was announced before Christmas.
    Mole #4 – I get to hear what the people who advise farmers are thinking, and no-one is looking at the CPRS as anything but an economic cost. Input costs will go up if agriculture is not covered by the scheme, and if it is covered then the cost of permits for the methane emissions will be dire (try the Australian Farm Institute for more on this). From the industry point of view, credits for carbon sequestration in the soil is about reducing losses rather than making gains.

    Sorry to spoil the joke, BTW, but most of the methane is burped…

  8. Brian

    As I pointed out on the earlier thread, there are huge claims made, for example by Dr Christine Jones in a Landline story:

    PIP COURTNEY: She’s [ie Dr Jones] frustrated that scientists and politicians don’t see the same opportunities she sees. This year Australia will emit just over 600 million tonnes of carbon. We can sequester 685 million tonnes of carbon by increasing soil carbon by half a per cent on only two per cent of the farms. If we increased it on all of the farms, we could sequester the whole world’s emissions of carbon. (Emphasis added)

    andrew_m, do you (or anyone else) have any idea whether she’s for real or away with the fairies?

    Clearly the whole thing needs sorting out, which is one of the stated aims of the research.

    Ambi, James Hansen reckons we should have separate international programs to tackle each of the Kyoto GHGs. The information you give about NO2 supports this notion.

  9. Ambigulous

    Brian

    That suggestion of separate agreements for each major GHG sounds sensible and workable.

    cheers

  10. still@downfall

    andrew_m #7 I believe you represented the dominate viewpoint within rural industries on the subject in your reply to mole. There will be no cash cow when agriculture comes into the scheme & in the meantime an extra cost burden has been added especially in freight costs.

    Can anyone tell me where the research has been done to back up the 11% of total emissions is from methane from livestock. As far as I’m aware the work on how much methane is burped was researched in Europe in winter barn conditions on grain type rations. Has there been any completed research on livestock emissions on natural feed in Australian rangeland conditions? I’m aware that CSIRO was doing this research at their Rockhampton research station. Did this research survive the Federal Government closing down the Rockhampton station last year?

    Brian, I too heard the report from northern NSW of sequencing enough carbon in 6 years to cover his operation for 125. I would like to see this reviewed; claims based on unsound science will do not one any good. However I do know of other audits that carbon sequenced far out weighs all greenhouse gases emitted. Dr Christine Jones is onto something especially in regards to grazing regimes, but for her to suggest that you can sod seed crops in most Australian conditions, she may be down the bottom of the garden with that one. To say we can sequester the whole world’s emissions of carbon does seem over the top.

    The cycle of carbon flows in the soil is a complex one. If you do not understand this system I would recommend the book Carbon Grazing by Alan Lauder. The author is a grazier– ecologist, a range of scientific experts reviewed this book before publication. In my opinion the sign of true brilliance is someone who can explain something complex simply. This book will enable you to get a handle on the subject quickly. It is published by Saltbush Systems located at THE GAP.

    What I wrote above looks like a free ad, sorry it’s not intended to be, I have no contacts at all to the author or publisher, it is just my latest read.

  11. David Rubie

    Some more resources courtesy of my employer:

    Meat and Livestock Australia Climate Change Resources

    Some of it is a touch out of date – I think andrew_m’s 11% figure is still pretty reasonable in the Australian context given that it’s closely linked to feed efficiency. My impression is that feed efficiency is how lowering methane is being primarily investigated.

  12. Ambigulous

    feed efficiency, possibly breeding animals who emit less; poorly kept animals may emit more than well-looked after animals…; then what about reducing methane from dairy waste slurry ponds (or collecting and burning the methane for power generation?); several approaches I think, David Rubie

  13. David Rubie

    Ambigulous – genetics takes time and while it can be very effective (we’ve had some stunning results from reducing worm egg burden in sheep for example over a 10 year time period) it’s also incredibly expensive in the short term and largely ineffective if you can’t come up with a “field measurement” that ordinary farmers can use to submit for objective analysis.

    There are some moves on the genetic side for methane emissions. I know bugger all about dairy cattle but I believe that ordinary feed lots are actually worse for methane emissions than dairy operations – can’t find the reference for it at the moment. Either way, it’s waste and it costs cockies money and it’s in their interests to reduce it regardless of the climate impact (sad but true).

    If some smart scientist could prove to a coal burning operation that the escaped C02 was costing them money, they’d fix it ASAP. Unfortunately we are reduced to carbon permits as a poor method for this at the moment – I’m really surprised the libertarian wingnuts haven’t jumped up and down excitedly explaining about how property rights over the atmosphere could fix it all in a heartbeat :-)

  14. Amypa

    As a crop farmer myself there is no way farmers will make any money out of these carbon credits for carbon sequestration. We simply cannot sequester enough carbon at any realistic carbon price to make it worthwhile, let alone offset costs incurred. I read a research article a while back that stated it would cost more to sample the different soil types in different paddocks continually over time to monitor what the soil carbon was doing than would be the value of the Carbon in the soil. I think they were working on a value for Carbon of $20/tonne.
    The only way a cropping farmer can increase Carbon in the soil is to not remove or destroy crop residues. At some stage though the Carbon in the soil and the micro-organisms that consume it come into balance and the carbon content cannot be increased further. Good farmers have been increasing their organic carbon levels up to this ceiling for years, so introducing a scheme like this now would just be rewarding poor farmers for emitting this Carbon Dioxide they should have been storing for their own benefit for years.
    As for Nitrous Oxide emissions, this occurs when waterlogging occurs in fields causing Oxygen to become unavailable to soil micro-organisms. Some of these little critters are then able to consume the N and therefore emit Nitrous Oxide. I’m somewhat surprised at all the chest thumping and claims of solving problems by pouring money into these projects. It’s great news clearly, but the Cotton and Grains research organisations at least have spent millions of dollars over the last 5 years or so on this very topic, almost to a word. I don’t know what extra information Penny Wong hopes to get from throwing more money at it, the farmers themselves have seen the problem coming and have quantified these emissions in different cropping systems using their own levies.
    Luckily in the sub tropical climates, denitrification isn’t a huge problem due to the interaction of temperature and cropping and rainfall patterns. There are certainly ways it can be minimalised, and this research has long been done and is widely known and used. Farmers do not want to see this occur as they spend a lot of money building up soil Nitrogen reserves and to have denitrification occur is literally seeing your money disappear into thin air.

  15. Ambigulous

    Good on you, Amypa.
    I suspect the general public is not aware of how much of the agricultural industry levy dollar goes into targetted agricultural research in Australia: not just into marketing and export drives, but into improving efficiency and reducing environmental impacts, improving farming prectices for the long term, etc.

    Being production based, the levy dollar is not regressive (not proghressive either).