John Birmingham writes in The Brisbane Times:
I don’t know whether it’s the increasing numbers of gaudy little plastic flags sticking out of car windows, or the braying jingoism of furniture superstore and gym equipment megabarn advertising that all but demands I part with big wads of the folding stuff at special one-off ‘straya day sales on pain of somehow feeling unna’strayan if I don’t, or the drunken munters, the bogan halfwits, or just the whole grinning death’s head kiss-the-flag-Nazi vibe of enforced patriotism, but increasingly I’m finding that Australia Day sucks.
Read the rest here.
On the related topic of the debate about the Australian flag, there’s an interesting post from Shakira Hussein at The Stump.
Elsewhere: Hoyden About Town.
Pretty good article by Birmingham, a local writer I typically enjoy, but what does he mean by saying that Stephen King’s Under The Dome is “packed with win”. Does he mean “wit” or is just some new vernacular only Brisbane Times readers are engineered to understand? That noted I agree with his suspicions towards aggressive Australian patriotism. Next up (hopefully), a crop of Australian filmmakers who don’t give a hairy unwashed rat’s arse about “dreaming Australian dreams” and “telling Australian stories for Australians” but who simply want to tell stories, Australian or not, and won’t feel the need to culturaly syringe the Bush Tucker Man, suburban larrikins, a koala, Aboriginals embarking on journeys or film theory into a medium that local audiences have repeatedly indicated they’d prefer to see operate minus the demented patriotic nuttery of the Australian Film Commission and their government funded ilk.
Elsewhere: Hoyden About Town.
“Packed with win” is leet-speak – it’s a generational thing, not a regional thing. He means it’s great.
Not generally a fan of John Birmingham, the more I learn about him the less I like him, but that article was spot-on.
John Birmingham writes very well, alas his intellectual skill halts there. He Died With a Felafal in his Hand” is a can’t-put-down. Alas, he is yet to replicate this feat.
Apart from that much-missed sequel (or other book) he is a complete dickhead.
Ad hominem much, Steve?
Another Australia Day event.
http://www.smh.com.au/national/pms-nephew-marks-invasion-day-with-antiracism-protest-20100126-mvot.html
If only Uncle Kevin could be more like this bloke.
Birmingham also wrote a passable history of the sleazy side of Sydney, but its name escapes me.
In the article that is the burden of this post, I think he speaks for a lot of Australians. It certainly rang a chord with me.
Me too, Paul, and a ton of people on Facebook judging by how quickly the link’s gone around.
Blog ho!
FWIW, Bite my Latte chucks in 2c worth on Ostraya Day .
Ah, what a surprise. The tribe of bitter lefties once again spends Australia day in front of their computers hating Australia, Australians and Australia Day. Adding Tony Abbott to the pot for a bit of variety.
What better illustration of their irrelevance.
Shouldn’t you be at a bbq or something instead of in front of a computer, then?
PaulW.
I don’t hate Orstraylya. I wouldn’t have spent, (and still do spend my life) trying to understand its history if I did. Nor, for that matter am I bitter. Amused, most of the time, but rarely bitter. I’m not into piss ups and flagwaving on any day of the year, let alone Australia Day. And, if you had the vaguest knowledge of where this country was coming from, you would realise that that Australia Day nowadays is just the annual attempt to keep the 1988 Bicentennial party going. That Ratty managed to soil it all with his dog-whistle racism (remember Cronulla?)and sort of mess up what used to be a big harmless party, is what I regret.
Leviathan is the name of the sydeney book. He also did an airport thriller warporn alt-history thing, with an amusing role for Maj H Windsor.
PaulW, you really don’t understand anything do you?
PaulW: I’m as entitled as a ‘stayan to hate southern cross tattoo covered oiks who wear the flag on boardies across their sagging gutz while guzzling shit beers and eating toxic crap food as you are to urge, presumably from the safety of some middle class redoubt, that I ought to like them. I’m guessing you don’t have to use public transport in Sydney very much. Oi. My view is that there is now a major movement, thanks to Howard’s dog whistling and the likes of Jonesy, whereby trailer trash anglo celt ozzies get one day of the year to celebrate the fact that while they might be suproletarian losers at least they are better than that effnic scum (meaning their neighbours).
And, btw, PaulW, if you don’t have any effnic friends (and I mean friends) you are really missing out on something.
I have been well and truly over Ostraya Day since Ratty’s manufactured Ronnie Raygun type of patriotism, which imo is definitely the last refuge of various scoundrels.
On the right of this webpage an ad is currently being displayed which invites, entreats one to click… which I did. It’s a gee-up, isn’t it? Please?
http://www.australiaday.org.au/experience/
A lovely BBQ, lamb chops and all – even some lamingtons. Not a flag in sight but a lot of happy Australians and new residents. Not one person was too pleased about being described as unAustralian or with having Aussie values imposed. And a Republic cant come quick enough.
An ex-military friend of mine noted appositely today that the ADF has been in a fully fledged recruitment crisis throughout the entire Howard revival of jingoism, Gallipoli trips etc. As he put it, its part of the “move from a participatory form of nationalism to a spectatorial society”.
Much as I support not signing up – I think it really highlights the bullshit factor of the whole thing.
Read the rest here.
No thanks, read the same article by a different dickhead when it was linked to on LP last year, and every year before that.
Yawn.
Lefty E@#17
Hypocrisy is the tribute vice pays to virtue. Particularly in these days of commitment-phobia.
A similar two-faced attitude can be seen in relation to religious profession and family building. People are less and less willing to give up their ease and leisure for service to God (church), Queen (military) and Country (family).
Yet despite, or perhaps because of, this more people are intent on going through the motions of symbolic support for such traditional establishment agencies. ducking military service whilst making Gallipoli/Kokoda pilgrimages, lazing in bed on Sunday mornings whilst sending their kids to religious schools, heading for divorce courts whilst vociferously supporting stricter family values et.
This each-way bet is having ones secular liberal cake and cheering on the sacred “corporal” bits too. Very Australian.
Lefty E said:
A spell in the services would do you the world of good. Knock some of that sissy liberalism out. Make a man of you.
And on another sector of the Culture War front, signs of despair amongst high-ranking members of the Wet cultural elite. Shaun Carney for the Age ruefully admits that the cause of the republic is near-hopeless.
Right-”corporalism” – the Dries – may not yet have the whip hand. But Left-liberalism – the guiding philosophy of the Wets – is in symbolic decline. I told you so.
In Sydney at least (I don’t know about other places,) the oinks were out in force preventing the oiks from being, well, oiks. So everybody, except the oiks, had a good time. While I’m somewhat conflicted about this – police emptying out me VB or confiscating me Chardonnay cask before I get pissed – oh, hell, you know what I mean.
Well Jack, its all part of the weak citizenship we’re encouraged to have – lest we form actual communities. Instead we’re encouraged to consume citizenship and nationalism individually, like a brand – this latest exercise in southern cross branding on thongs and cars being an example – empty signifying, daft fashions, moral panics, hypocrisy. Made objectionable by certain idiots bullying other citizens with it.
Much like Haiti – the US couldn’t support a mass-movement based democracy and had it overthrown in favour of the twin-elite democratic model. The elites fear participation.
“A spell in the services would do you the world of good. Knock some of that sissy liberalism out. Make a man of you.”
Yes, I cant think of any better road to manliness than showering and bunking down with other blokes constantly.
And reflecting on the ADF officers Ive know in Timor, I suspect you’d more likely to find ideological camaraderie among Scoutmasters, Jack.
Birmingham also wrote a book about NSW marijuana culture (Dopeland?) which, when I looked at it, seemed a bit thin. Anyone read it?
Weaver, Yep, I read it, its great. Very entertaining read, and yes, the bucket bong did originate in Brisbane. I have also read the rest of Birminghams’ not inconsiderable canon. You really should take a look, all of you. He grew up in Ipswich and is based in Brisbane (lives in Hamilton I seem to recall). Much of his later writing may not be to everyones taste, but he has mastered a number of genres. I’m surprised there are so many who claim to be unaware of him. Now, how about my other favourite Brisbane writer, Nick Earls. Is there anyone who hasn’t heard of him?
Lefty E#@21
No one forced young people to adopt and celebrate the symbols of national unity. They do it spontaneously, often in the face of vitriolic rebukes from aging baby-boomers, rather embittered about the failure of the ideological dreams to come true. Conscientious juveniles are simply picking up the slack created by the senile delinquents. No names, no pack drill.
And of course young people are also industriously forming actual communities on-line. They can chew traditional gum and walk fashionably at the same time.
By and large this is a good thing. Anthropology now shows that group selection is fundamental to moral evolution. Group identity (nationalism, religionism and even some dynasticism) that emerges organically from a given sociological niche encourages concern for ones fellows, so long as it does not degenerate into xenophobia along the lines of Cronulla riots. (But we all know that there were two sides to that story. The other side has been discretely slipped down a memory hole.)
@ 20 PB you had a chardonnay cask? Elitist so-and-so. If it’s not Fruity Gordo, you can **** off back to your own country
@ 19 Then Yobbo why not take your own advice and stop reading (and commenting!) here?
Some of Birmingham’s more recent Tom Clancy style work is available for free as ebooks from the publisher.
d
Great, a snob telling society that it’s annoying him. Very enlightening. Although I did like how he managed to complain about “enforced patriotism” before going on to describe in detail how he was going to have a completely jingoism-free day.
LeftyE@#21
I am distressed to see a paid-up Wet making homophobic remarks, even in jest. But then again:
“Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.”
S. Freud.
LeftyE said:
Regrettably the ADF political correctors have more or less purged the officer corps of the last vestiges of Colonel Blimps. Fortunately the NCOs and ORs are still “sound” in that respect.
I’ll take your word on the Scoutmasters since you seem to have gotten to the bottom of it, so to speak. Ideologically speaking, I prefer boys toys to the company of boys.
Jack @ 26
Off topic I know but as someone who lived in the area in the late 80′s can you expand on this?
Don’t waste your time tsssk. There are two (indeed, multitudinous) sides to every story, but it doesn’t mean they’re of equal value.
(When oh when will somebody give my lunatic grievance the equal air-time it deserves!?!?!)
Mercurius @ 27,
Well, I’m not game to wander the streets late at night with me bottles of Drambuie and Benedectine in case the coppers stop me and make me empty them out. And there’s not enough wine in a bottle.
“When oh when will somebody give my lunatic grievance the equal air-time it deserves!?!?!)”
Just contact the ABC. ABC local radio in Sydney spent 20 minutes discussing something to do with
the earth being flatglobal cooling with a certain Lord Monckton on Monday.No lunatic grievance is too lunatic for your ABC.
adrian @ 34,
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/27/2802389.htm?site=thedrum
Q.E.D.
@ pre-dawn leftist
Thanks. I’ll see if I can run a copy to ground.
@ Strocchi
Tribalism has killed more people than it’s helped, so its recrudescence is a bad thing, even in the trivial variety we see now, all flags and anthems and other hollow symbols. But I take heart from your claim that this apparent surge is a spontaneous fad of the young. Perhaps they’ll move on to more sensible pursuits once their prefrontal myelinisation kicks in.
Paul Burns #33. Move north to God’sown then you can carry liquor in public & tell coppers to go chase jaywalkers or something!
Crikey! Jonathan Green didn’t take long to o.d. on the ABC Liberal Kool-Aid.
Tried it, Steve. Love the place in winter but can’t stand that Queensland summer heat. I’m a Sydney boy at heart.
Jack @ 20, I spent 26 years in the Army, and although it made me, it didn’t knock any of the lefty stuffing out of me. (Or whatever you said.)
I hope you were being ironic.
SATP, as long as Paul Burns isn’t aboriginal that is….
BTW, what beers do you have in your fridge, and particuarly on-tap?
I am similarly concerned about the excessive flag waving – god it was hard to not to snap those little flags off in the car park! And some have been sporting them for weeks! However I notice in my corner of outer suburbia it seemed to be the large four wheel drive owners who took to it with gusto. I reckon that most of those people are bogans with mortgages and keeping up with the Jones’s mentalities but you might hope they would see through the flag waving – it just seems to smack of insecurity to me – I think they are all terrified that their precious way of life is an illusion – cause it is actually.
We spent the day listening to the top 100 countdown on triple j, which mostly steered clear of the jingoism, along with a few cold beverages of course.
I spent the day in Edinburgh Gardens for our annual Oz day cricket match, with a generator to run my PA and a lovely (and large) bunch of folks. So many families and youngish persons enjoying themselves peacefully and non-jingoistically it was awesome. Some flags were in evidence – hotpants on an extremely camp showpony for example – but nothing remotely ugly.
I believe the most Australian thing I did all day, among many, was to walk when the umpire (and even the keeper when pressed) didn’t know for sure if I’d edged it. First ball duck too.
Actually, the Australian cricket team haven’t done the greatest job of following Gilly’s lead on this one, but I still think it’s pretty Aussie.
LEFTY E @ 21
It would be fascinating to know if that’s behind the recruitment crisis, but there’s probably a lot of things going on. From my memory, ADF recruitment shot up massively after the deservedly popular East Timor intervention. This was several years into Howard’s reign and was certainly accompanied by some “jingoism”.
The Iraq war’s probably behind a lot of the low recruitment now. But the idea that many now feel that branding themselves is just as an adequate of being patriotic than serving in the military rings true. (That said, most Australians including myself don’t feel the need to do either)
Also, recruitment ads for the ADF always seem to emphasise the career benefits and excitement rather than the idea of fighting for your country. I presume they’ve done their market research and decided that ads emphasising patriotism wouldn’t pay off.
Something to bear in mind, Andrew @ 44 (and Lefty E earlier) is that the conditions of service are nowhere near as good as they were 30-odd years ago. Combined with the high-risk operations the Defence Force is currently engaged in, and the comparatively good shape the economy is in, there’s not a lot of incentive to join. (I enlisted in 1977, just as the good times I’d grown up in were coming to an end, and unemployment was actually a fair chunk of my motivation.)
Wilful #41. The Qld liquor laws are not race specific. Paul Burns the aboriginal can lug liquor in public just the same as may Paul Burns of any other race.
Beer? Sufficient to meet demand.
I find it amusing that the left is all “tolerance” and “respect” for different cultures until it comes to a (white/western) culture they don’t like, then it’s just streams of intolerance and hate.
@ 19 Then Yobbo why not take your own advice and stop reading (and commenting!) here?
I thought it was pretty obvious that I have, along with most people.
I was bored last night and just thought I’d check to see that LP had remembered to include their annual “WE HATE AUSTRALIA DAY” post. Didn’t leave disappointed.
You guys really need to get some new schtick.
I’ll be disappointed if the 2011 Quadrant’s Australia Day Hate List (that is, their list of all the things TEH LEFT hate about Australia) omits Southern Cross tattoos.
“…then it’s just streams of intolerance and hate.”
Example?
desipis @ 47,
If I had to list all the things in white Western culture I find essential, (some of which I truly do love) and could not do without, it would take me about 10,000 words.
Doesn’t stop me from being a lefty though.
JS @26: “They do it spontaneously, often in the face of vitriolic rebukes from aging baby-boomers…”
Errm, hate to confess this, but…
This here is a household of baby-boomers who have cheerfully flown car-flags on Aussie Day, for two years in a row. I thought it was a great lark. Better half thinks I am barking mad, but finds it entertaining all the same.
I blame it on 12 years living in Europe, and watching them all go mad with their flags at the drop of a nationalistic hat. It finally got to me, and I felt like waving one of my own…
It’s kind of fun and light-hearted, to my way of thinking, and that is probably the way most are taking it. A few yobs take it too seriously, and the media beats the story up. But surely most are just having a bit of fun?
Not saying I am representative of ‘the left’ whatever that is, but I object to stupid and nasty in any culture Despis, not just white ones. It just so happens that its dumbass anglo nationalism that I am getting shoved in my face all the time rather than any other kind.
Addendum to @51, I would actually much rather fly an inclusive flag which acknowledged our Aboriginal heritage, and removed the british flag. Something with the Southern Cross and Uluru, for example.
However, one makes do with what one has got.
Mercurius@33
Thats right. And while we are at it lets junk the adversarial system of justice and governance. Its a real time-waster that one, especially when we know that our side is always right.
Way to keep an open mind.
“as long as it doesn’t degenerate…”
“a few yobs take it too seriously and the media beats story up…”
Well, not really. Where I live, the beachfront and main street were full of yobs, this year as last and to be amongst them is to feel quite unsafe. Pub does a good trade, but. The point many people are making is that it does degenerate, and is doing so more frequently.
weaver@37
Do you have data on this breathtaking proposition? Its true that inter-tribal war has killed more people than any other forms of conflict. Keeley found that:
Even so, anthropological investigations indicate that humans require stable small groups for their survival, sexual union and social cohesion. For pre-modernity this must be not less than 150 (Dunbar’s number). For post-modernity it is closer to 300.
For sure the longevity, fertility and territoriality rates for Robinson Crusoes have always been far below that of the Swiss Family Robinsons.
More generally, the existence of sexual and social selection indicates that human beings require group cohesion or they cease, in some sense, to be human. See George Clooney in “Up in the Air” for a memorable performance along these lines.
weaver said:
Tribalism is neither a bad or good thing in itself. It is merely a sociotypic adaptation which might or might not improve fitness levels for any given niche or era. The Cronulla riots were a form of Anglo-tribal vigilantism that irrupted owing to the break-down of law and order in that area that allowed hostile ethnic tribes to run amok. Interestingly the riots were directly sparked by threats of sexual aggression against local women folk along with more general territorial disputes.
The violence on both sides was deplorable. But the conflict spurred municipal and provincial authorities to step up police patrols which seems to have quietened things down. Plus there appears to have been some soul searching done on both sides.
So perhaps some good has come of it.
I made no such claim. I argued that LeftyE’s friend was probably right, the current wave of conservative cultural symbolism amongst the young was probably a two-faced substitution activity for the more demanding traditional forms of the real thing: military aggression, religious profession, family building.
Still its reassuring to see young people are proud of their country’s achievements. Start worrying if they are ashamed and start to leave or drop out.
Phil vvb @57: “The point many people are making is that it does degenerate, and is doing so more frequently.”
Soo, that would be a problem caused by:
- Australia Day?
- Flags?
- Increasing number of yobs?
- Increasing alcohol consumption leading to frequent yob behaviour?
- A situation which leads yobs to think they have a point to defend?
One could argue for any and all of the above, I suppose, and more that I haven’t thought to include. I would argue for the last 2 items, and particularly the final item.
A few years ago, Peter Costello made a strong statement about immigrants accepting the Australian system. It was in response to various muslim leaders publicly declaring that they held Sharia law to be above Australian law, and that they did not condemn jihad against non-muslims, and various other incendiary remarks about Australian culture. There was an outcry on many blog sites, and a good deal of muttering in private by others who would never demonstrate publicly on the topic.
Perhaps the recently increased emphasis on Australian identity is in some way related to this?
Does patriotism spring out of a vacuum, from an initial position of lethargy and nonchalance? Or does something drive it into existence?
elise: I think that the sort of flag waving patriotism that is at issue here stems from profound insecurity. Undoubtedly immigration policies and the formalisation of a ‘new australia’ identity through official multicultural disourse has created insecurity among certain sections of the population. The flag waving now didn’t exist like it does now in any period of Australian history up until about ten years ago. I’d actiually date it to the Cronulla riot in fact but there would be evidence of it prior to that date. We (Australians) were secure in our identity as primarily British Australians within a heritage of ‘white Australia’ exclusionism that was built into the original Federation constitution.
So the flag waving is both an expression of anxiety as well as a statement of identity. The problem is that flag waving nationalism has been captured by the most anxious sections of the community – marginalised working classes, sub- and lumpen proletarians and the out and out racist deranged. They feel that they have legitimate grievances that are not addressed and in this they are probably correct. Unfortunately, however, due to the ideological collpase of the ALP and the further collapse of the organised left into irrelevant factionettes there is no potential to properly politicise their anger and direct it towards their real adversaries and exploiters. The end result is nascent fascism that is readily observed in displays of racist flag waving.
So far not too serious but watch that space. Remember how Pauline draped herself in the flag for her book cover?
Anthony Nolan @60: “Remember how Pauline draped herself in the flag for her book cover?”
Actually I missed the finer details of the Pauline episode, getting back to Oz after it ended. However, her irrational xenophobic efforts were reported and discussed in general terms in Europe. Regrettably, one of the few things about Oz politics that made it onto the overseas media radar. Along with the Tampa affair. Cringe.
Nevertheless, would you care to extend your comments about flag waving to virtually the entire European and Scandinavian communities? There were flags on at least every other house in the street, over there, flown at every official opportunity and sometimes year-round.
Would you also classify the vast majority of European society as: “marginalised working classes, sub- and lumpen proletarians and the out and out racist deranged…”?
Come to think of it, Anthony @60, looking further than my comments @59 about increased emphasis on Australian identity, we could think about similar reactions overseas.
What about the current French and Swiss preoccupation with banning black sacks and mosques?
Seems like a great idea, actually. The black sacks are the ugliest things, and a severe restriction on female self-expression, to say nothing of trying to see properly through those darth-vader slits. Traditional mosques can be extemely beautiful, but they breed wailing banshees with microphones, who disturb the peace at all hours, with noises that could wake the dead.
Anyway, it seems that a much larger cohort than just Aussie yobs are preoccupied with “expression of anxiety as well as a statement of identity”? No less than the parliaments of a couple of major OECD nations.
Elise: the European nations have their own long and bloody history of ethno-nationalism and it was (is) often organised around the symbolic of the flag. It used to be closely associated with support for football clubs but perhaps things have moved up a step in response to the anxieties and loss of identity associated with the full development of the EU. That a couple of European parliaments have taken a lurch to the right is no surprise at all if you keep in mind recent European history. As to the French and the Swiss from what I know it appears that the motives are different in either case: the French have identified the wearing of the burqua as a mechanism for the promotion of extremist Islamicist views and they justify the ban on those grounds. I’m unsure whether or not this French peculiarity is reasonable or not. As to the Swiss, their attitudes are reflected in recent local opposition to building mosques on the outskirts of Sydney for much the same reason which is to say racist anxiety. Personally, I’ve no problem with an immam chanting so long as they are not amplified.
Thanks Jack. The Cronulla thing had been building up IMHO for about 40 years, part of the reason being the train line that takes you straight to the beach. This makes it easier to get to for outsiders, easier than Bomdi for instance that doesn’t seem to suffer the same tension.
I’ve spoken here about having seven shades of crap kicked out of me at Cronulla before but I’ve spoken about it with otherwise friendly people from the Shire and after finding out the attack was from locals (“you sure they weren’t outsiders like Lebs mate?”) I’ve been told flat out that I was either lying or I must of somehow done something to provoke it. And this is by friends. Good thing I didn’t report the incident to the cops then, I would have been charged with wasting police time. I bring it up here not to say people in Cronulla are violent but to point out how my own view is somewhat biased by an isolated incident.
I remember the tension leading up to that weekend and the media attention. My partner seeing all the lovely vision of the beaches said “lloks nice. We should go.” “not this weekend” was my response.
Back on topic. Most of the tension is caused by that train line. It’s even mentioned in Puberty Blues if memory serves me correctly, where the locals would hang out at the station and give outsiders a friendly talking to before sitting them back on the train. I think the wisest thing I heard after the riots were the responsible Muslim parents who got together a group and basically kept their kids and teens indoors that summer. The logic made sense. They didn’t want their kids to hang around some of their peers that might be causing trouble. And they didn’t want their kids having their heads kicked in for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. So for their kids, self imposed home arrest.
In response to Elise. The two examples you cite are problematic due to the hypocritical nature.
In the French one, I too see the cloaking of women in such a fashion as oppressive to women. So, are the French going to defrock nuns as well?
As for the Swedish war on architicture….are they going to lop off the tops of their castles?
tssk: that’s an interesting account. I’ve also twice had violent run ins at the beach in the last ten years – once in the surf at Maroubra and once on the sand at Coogee. On the first I was kicked savagely while in the water and told I was a “skip dirt bag” which is not what anyone expects in deep water and heavy surf. The second was a sand based problem that resolved itself when all the immediate bystanders pulled out their mobile phones to record proceedings making my assailant reconsider. On neither occasion did I do anything to warrant any sort of response let alone what happened. These days I make the effort to drive north of the harbour to escape the overcrowding.
I should have added – the one occasion I visited Cronulla with my kids I thought it a shit hole of a place.
To be fair I loved the Shire. It’s just the ugliness that some (emphasis on some) residents had put me right off. I’ve lived in loads of different places in Sydney and the Shire was the only place where I’ve been assualted. (Mind you I was a teen at the time and teens tend to be a higher risk group.) Your mileage might vary.
Do you have data on this breathtaking proposition?
Yeah, Jack, clearly when I said tribalism I was referring only to the behaviour of, say, the Yanomami rather than the ethnonationalism which is the subject of the thread, and which is a species of tribalism, as you yourself argued in its defence.
Yeesh.
tssk @64: “As for the Swedish war on architicture…”
If memory serves me correctly, it is the Swiss, not the Swedes.
“So, are the French going to defrock nuns as well?”
Yes, you have a point. It seems that covering up women is a common historical point for both Islam and Catholicism. At least the catholic version doesn’t put every woman in these things, and they leave the facial area open. There is something faintly siniter-looking about a black sack with barely a slit for the eyes. Why was Darth Vader created like that, to symbolise terror in the movie? Why make women look like that? So they are unattractive to look at? Yep.
As a small girl, I went to Roman Catholic masses with my granny. They all wore lace doilies and head scarves on their heads, and kneeled on the hard floors frequently for long periods during mass. Lace doilies are a modest improvement on burkas, and all that kneeling seems to have common roots with the muslim traditions of kneeling on the floor.
Personally, I reckon the origins of the two religions in both location and traditions look too close to be a coincidence. The power brokers (priests, bishops, mullahs, ayatollahs, etc) of each will of course declare the superiority of their own brand. I don’t subscribe to either perspective.
“…wisest thing I heard after the riots were the responsible Muslim parents who got together a group and basically kept their kids and teens indoors that summer…”
Sensible move I reckon. It is a pity that the muslim power brokers sought to exert their position, to the point of antagonising the public at large. It required parents to do the sensible thing, and keep a low profile.
At the time, it seemed like the global muslim community was determined to poke the rest of the world in the eye with a pointed stick. Never mind 9/11. We had muslim leaders in various countries trying to declare that they were the arbitors of a superior legal system, endorsing attacks on non-muslims (tacitly and explicitly), and making derogatory remarks about non-muslim culture. You don’t have to be muslim to realise that waltzing into another country and exerting yourself like that will make you highly unpopular.
Australia has a lot of different churches, with many different strands of religion. Most don’t bother people at all. They keep their religious beliefs to themselves. The problem comes when a religion seeks to dominate and criticise others, and further suggest that they have some pre-ordained right to authorise/endorse attacks on others. That is just asking for trouble, and that is indeed what they got.
Anthony Nolan, I think everything would calm down if the bloody religious power brokers would quit trying to exert themselves and enlarge their influence. The average families have the right idea, to keep a low profile on personal religious beliefs. The leaders needed to rethink their objectives, and their teachings, if they want to live in peace and harmony in mixed societies on this planet.
And that goes for Abbott too, as leader of the opposition in Australia.
Still its reassuring to see young people are proud of their country’s achievements.
Why would anyone be reassured by people, young or otherwise, holding a belief which is functionally meaningless? How can a reification “achieve” anything? How can one be “proud” of achievements to which one did not contribute? How can one be “proud” of nebulous descriptions (“free”, “democratic”) applied to a demographic group to which one belongs when one has done little or nothing to create or sustain the credibility of those descriptions? Note here that I’m attempting to pick out options of what your sentence could possible mean. I’m not convinced it means anything at all.
People are entitled to feel proud of individual or group achievements to which they have in some way contributed. Otherwise, it’s just some fan cheering on the team’s victory from his buttgroove in front of the telly, and claiming the result reflects well on him.
Weaver @70: “Otherwise, it’s just some fan cheering on the team’s victory from his buttgroove in front of the telly, and claiming the result reflects well on him.”
This tendancy drives the whole sporting industry around the world, and makes a lot of people very rich.
I’m right with you in concept, but we would be in the minority.