An open thread, where at your weekend leisure, you can discuss anything you like.
Life, Culture and Politics from BrisVegas
Larvatus Prodeo was an Australian group blog which discussed politics, sociology, culture, life, religion and science from a left of centre perspective. more»
Bob Ellis has decided to be extremely provocative on The Drum.
On the juice again is he, tigtog? What’s newsworthy about that?
Thanks for the link Tigtog. Whether he’s on the sauce again or not, old Bob makes some cogent points.
I think its wonderful. But no one is going to take any notice of his logic. (I won’t say rigorous logic because I’m sure somebody who has studied logic in philosophy will rush to point out Ellis’s fallacies, assuming there are some. Unless, of course, horror, he’s right?)
reads like excellent sense to me..i’ll have some of whatever sauce he’s having please.
Bob Ellis loves to expose gross hypocrisy. I think he does it really well and after reading pretty much all of his work on the Drum and Unleashed would say that from where I stand he can do no wrong. He gets the message across in an entertaining way.
I think there might be some residents of Belgrade who would agree with Ellis’ suggestion that there is equivalent moral reason for bombing the Vatican.
Poor old Bob – ever and as always as dumb as a sack of rocks. If he really wanted to be provocative he’d be demanding the the end of tax concessions for all religious institutions in Australia as they no longer server their original purpose (the subsidisation of charity) and now prop up immoral and irretrievably corrupt institutions that need to be dismantled root and branch. All of them. The charitable and educational arms of the Anglican and Catholic churches should be nationalised and secular administrators installed. If we really wanted to operate on a high moral horse for the purposes of exposing radical Islam to decent criticism our own religious organisations ought to be completely marginalised as they have failed to protect the very people they claim to love.
It won’t happen, not because Bob Ellis thinks violence is an acceptable solution to violence (no matter how “provocative” the stupid old dolt is being) but because secular society has had enough of religious handwaving to cover up violence and pedophilia.
None of these institutions have a skerrick of moral authority left, they should be dismantled by the state. Now.
Bob’s focus was plainly rhetorical. Analogies always suffer as reasoning because the salience of the analogy has to be warranted, and in the end, one can spend more time doing that than arguing the warrant on the original subject matter.
Analogies are useful devices for prompting people to reflect on aspects of a problem that have not been carefully examined. Asking whether one set of things is similar in structure to another can focus the mind on what is and is not germane in broad ethical or practical terms. Most of us like ethical and intellectual consistency.
The question to which Ellis points is whether (and to what extent) acts of commission are similar to acts of omission, whether intent and foresight are relevant and if so in what ways, and to what extent one should consider questions of scale when reflecting on ethical breach.
The questions here are complex and don’t admit easy answers. Clearly, the mere fact that one’s intent is honourable (and clearly I don’t at all accept that US intent in Iraq and Afghanistan was) then negative consequences reflect less poorly on those acting than if it was malign or simply reckless and self-serving. Yet in the end, good intentions can still make for great and unwarranted harm, and we want to restrain those who behave in ways likely to harm others needlessly, regardless of their intent, particularly as intent is generally hard to evaluate and harder still to prove. When someone is killed by a missile fired by a helicopter, the fact that the person firing it thought it served the greater good will surely not be of much comfort to the bereaved. Conversely, if someone acting with malice and reckless ignorance kills someone who was on the way to committing some dreadful atrocity, we probably won’t think that is anywhere near as dreadful as if he harms an innocent.
Knowledge of intent can help guide our policy responses to problems, but they really can’t tell us much useful about how horrible or worthy things are. In the end, our policy challenge ought to be to minimise harm to legitimate interests and maximise human life chances, and with that alone in mind, to frame policy.
It is clear that whatever is in the minds of the officers of the Catholic Church, the institution as it currently stands is fundamentally antithetic to good public policy and ought to be held accountable in full to the force of law. An accounting of how it has come to so seriously depart from the expectations, not merely of secular society but even its own philosophic adherents needs to be conducted in full public view. Massive doses of disinfectant will be required to dispel the stain and the stench emanating from this long closed bolthole of religious obscurantist authority.
Ellis:
Spot on.
One reason for this is that a corporation or a school has a statutorily defined existence, a corporate structure, and alienable property. The Catholic Church, on the other hand, resembles Lewis Carroll’s Cheshire Cat. Yet, the Church is a major property owner and money and assets course worldwide through its corporate arteries.
The state can do nothing to discipline this institution until it is compelled to take on a definable, responsible, prosecutable corporate identity. When that happens, responsible office holders can be prosecuted and punished for the misdeeds of their institution and the institution can be fined out of existence, if need be.
As much as I appreciate a good wee wee when I have one, I do not belong in a ABC wee wee in.
Fran Barlow wrote:
Not, if like Bob, you suck at them. He reads like a Youtube commenter 6 beers past midnight.
Katha Pollitt, who is one of my favourite writers, came up with pretty much the same point as Bob, who wrote
Pollitt:
The Pollitt article is an absolute beauty. Read the whole thing.
For those of you who have been following the illustrious adventures of Ensign Francis Grose on my blog, here’s another instalment:
http://beingahistoryheadandotherthings.blogspot.com/2010/04/francise-grose-at-bunker-hill.html#comments
Here is one of the most offensive identity theft attempts that I have seen in a while
“Dear Staff/Subscribers
TERMINATION OF YOUR PNC.COM.AU WEBMAIL ACCOUNT
We are currently carrying out an upgrade on our system due to the fact that
It has come to our notice that one or more of our subscribers are Introducing a very strong virus into our system and it is affecting our Network. We are trying to find out the specific person.
For this reason all subscribers are to provide their USER NAME AND PASSWORD
For us to verify and have them cleared against this virus. Failure to comply will lead to the termination of your Account in the next
48 hours.
Information to send;
EMAIL ADDRESS:
USERNAME:
PASSWORD:
Hoping to serve you better.
Sincerely,
© 2010 Eftel Ltd.. Mail Support
************************************************************************
This is an Administrative Message from © 2010 Eftel Ltd.. Mail server.It is not spam. From time to time, © 2010 Eftel Ltd. , mail server
Will send you such messages in order to communicate important information About your subscription.
************************************************************************”
Wow, Paul, great post – I felt like I was there! Christ, the price of life to those officers.
I’ve had a lot of these bogus requests from someone purporting to be from my ISP. Unfortunately, their reporting system (Hello iPrimus!) leaves much to be desired. I want to fire off a forward of the phishing email for them to look at, but the only way to report such things is via a complicate form with heaps of mandatory fields, and half way through I discover I need to be the account holder, ie my partner – I’m on a networked home computer using the ISP but not the account holder. Therefore I can’t even report a phishing email. Sorry for the boring rant but this is just stupid.
Uteman @8: right on the money.
patrickg @ 16,
Indeed, patrickg. It was all about honour. For an officer to turn and run, even one as young as Grose, (he was about 19)was the ultimate disgrace, leading to professional and social ostracism.
Bob Ellis writrs so well, and I love to hear him reading aloud. Beyond the crimes in Afghanistan “imagining we’ll win ‘hearts and minds’ by killing people for things they haven’t done and declaring we ‘acted appropriately, within the guidelines’…” There is the revival of the old practice of dancing boys for the worlrds of the north of Afghanistan, a peadophile practice banned by the Taliban, now resurgent. http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/2010/02/22/the-warlords-tune-afghanistans-war-on-children.html
Such parties are illegal under Afghanistan law and with good reason. The “dancing boys” are in effect sex slaves. They are lured off the streets by pimps. They are taught to dance and sing, to wear make-up and to dress like girls. Then they are made to perform before large groups of men. All of them are sexually abused.
Dancing boys are a lucrative business. Powerful former warlords and businessmen love to watch them and will pay a lot of money to have their own boy for bacha bazi. Some of the boys are traded like swap cards among the rich and powerful, and if they disobey their owners they are killed or brutalised.
The trade in boys is well known to the United Nations. According to Nazir Alimy, who compiled a report on the issue for the UN, there is no doubt who is funding this practice and why the police refuse to stop it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8612457.stm
“The Pope is facing allegations he was responsible for delaying Church action against a paedophile priest – the first time he has been accused so directly.
The allegations stem from a letter signed by Benedict XVI in 1985, when he was a senior Vatican official.”
Uteman @8: Bob’s heart is definitely in the right place re. exposing an important double standard, even if he does propose action in the wrong direction. But you are quite right about taxation and all religions.
“……Wikileaks has had more scoops in three years than the Washington Post has had in 30,” tweets the internet guru Clay Shirky, and he has a point. The latest and perhaps the most famous (or infamous) is the graphic video Wikileaks unveiled this week of a US Army attack in Iraq in 2007 that left 12 people dead, including two employees of Reuters. The US magazine Mother Jones has an profile of the secret-busting site……..
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/richard-adams-blog/2010/apr/08/wikileaks-collateral-murder-video-iraq
A hearty congratulations to the Wikileaks mob, helping ensure that truth wins out.
To know what is going on is the most important means of ensuring the war machine gets taken apart once and for all. That those responsible for atrocities, genocide and war crimes are prevented from doing so and get their day in open court to account for their unlawful and brutal work.
Some in the US, still consider Daniel Ellsberg (who released the “Pentagon Papers”, which delivered the final death knell on the pro-war propaganda of that previously unjustifyable war on IndoChina) to still be the US’s most dangerous and wanted enemy combatant.
Wikileaks – including a great and courageous Australian – are carrying on that fine tradition, at considerable danger to themselves and family.
Good on ya mates. I hold you in awe.
“Lest we foget – what fools we are.”
This is a really scary story.
http://www.theage.com.au/national/hep-c-doctor-scores-at-risk-20100409-rys8.html
It seems that an anaethetist at an abortion clinic has been deliberately infecting women with Hepatitis C.
Fine,
The doctore concerned must have done something really peculiar. Short of sharing needles or blood with some-one who has Hep C,its almost impossible to catch. (Though one does wonder how the very first case occurred.)
One of the things that has been upsetting me about the rotten church hierarchy is the incredible hypocrisy about protecting victims.
For example: Pope defiant over child sex abuse
But when I was a child, I was taught that in order to receive absolution, should I commit a crime, then I would need to turn myself in to the police. There are always two people who know about abuse – the victim, and the perpetrator. All the perpetrators have to do is trot along to their nearest police station, make a confession, and wear the consequences. That’s what a truly contrite church would be requiring these awful men to do.
I will believe that Ratzinger is serious about rooting out the great evil in the Catholic church when his priests start turning up in front of judges for sentencing, because they have confessed. He could also send Cardinal Law back to Boston to face that grand jury, instead of allowing him to shelter in the Vatican.
Fine, it’s the stuff of nightmares. Thank your favourite deity that kind of thing is so rare.
I just hope there aren’t any more victims.
Robert, that kind of thing is not rare at all! We have only skimmed the surface of the extent of child molestation.
Humans are a pretty dodgy lot, you know.
Or perhaps you don’t!
David G: I was referring to the case of the women infected with Hep C from their anesthetist – in circumstances which can’t (allegedly) be explained by mere carelessness.
There are all sorts of bad things done in the world, and some of them are by medical professionals. But that specific form of (possible) malevolence or (possible) gross disregard for human life is thankfully rather rare, I believe.
Vale Malcolm McLaren. That guy put together some amazing moments of music and fashion. Who could forget ‘anarchy and the uk’ on the Thames? That was some moment for the poor buggers living under Thatcher way back when.
Totally agree with uteman’s suggestion – nationalise the churches! Think the Ruddster will go for it?
Oh yes, good ol’ Malcolm M.
Buffalo gals
Madame Butterfly
He was such a clever bloke.
I always thought McLaren was rather over-rated, actually.
Robert, my apologies. I thought your comment related to the one above yours, the one about child molestation.
I agree that medical negligence is fortunately rare though whether all cases are reported is not known.
Climate negotiations have resumed in Bonn. The main issue so far is whether to have the chair incorporate the Copenhagen Accord into the negotiating text. Some more details are on my blog.
Well, you’re not going to get much argument from him, about that now, Terangeree@33.
Never having actually met the fellow, I never got any argument from him before, either, joe2 @ 36.
Born in da USA
Yeah!
rainbowdog – “Who could forget ‘anarchy and the uk’ on the Thames? That was some moment for the poor buggers living under Thatcher way back when.”
I think that it was Callaghan way back then. Mind you i think that the punks may have been reeling from Thatcher’s stint as education minister.
RIP Malcom Mc, get some Marie up your clacker
Thanks for the update, Peter.
“I think that it was Callaghan way back then.”
It was. Half a cigar for dylwah.
Only prob. is that the song “God Save The Queen” was the number the pistols attempted to sing on the Thames, the day of June 7, 1977. The Queens jubilee holiday. Which I happened to be in town for, by coincidence.
David G @34, “I agree that medical negligence is fortunately rare though whether all cases are reported is not known.”
Deliberately infecting women with hep C is not “negligence”.
I thought people might find this interesting.
http://scienceblogs.com/bioephemera/2010/04/bloggers_are_evil_and_other_ol.php?utm_source=networkbanner&utm_medium=link
And wasn’t the song called “Anarchy IN The U.K.?
Looks the the NSW govt is attempting to undo centuries of legal development. They plan to keep certain people in jail beyond the term of their sentence because they haven’t shown a tendency to rehabilitate. At this rate we’ll have the death penalty back on the books.
I didn’t realise gaols were places of rehabilitartion. I thought they were universities of crime.Certainly the people I know who’ve been in gaol have always come out at the very least a little bit worse, if not a hell of a lot worse than they were before they went in.
Anyone who sees rehabilitation as the goal of gaol is probably dyslexic.
Paul @43,
do you think I could get an op-ed in Teh Australian on how global warming has drained funds away from investigating the threat of Moonbats? A forget the current immigration policy threats – what about Moonbats in Moonboats?
I suspect the government’s internet filter is already deleting references to M**nb*ts, and that’s why we haven’t heard more about them.
Stikes me that the Rudd plan for health funding is rather like the Income Management regime they have mooted for Centrelink.
I’m feeling quite troubled about matters political in Hungary. As unappealing as is the choice of pandering to xenophobes is here it seems that the slightly-left of centre party MSZP is about to be ejected by a conservative grouping called Fidesz that has people in it who make Abbott look like a simpering liberal. They’ve promised, for the moment not to do a deal with a group called Jobbik, who make Fidesz look soft on Roma/Gypsies, and remind many of the Arrow Cross party that was involved in handing over Jews to the Nazis. Apparently, the MSZP may run third to Jobbik.
How about we redefine the goal of gaol as “to keep dangerous b**tards off the streets and out of our houses?”
Roger Jones,
The Moonbats have clearly been secret for some considerable time. I suspect Glenn and company captured some on their visit to the moon in 1969 and they have long been kept captive in Area 51 ever since. Unless of course, we never went to the moon and the moon landing was in fact a piece of Cold War trickery secretly photographed by Kubrick. (I hesitate to mention this as very peculiar things happen on Saturday Salon when one starts talking about conspiracy theories. Nevertheless …)
TV news is full of death today
Those in Russia far away
Of Polish churchmen,
Ministers and President.
We shrug and say
Well, what’s so different
From every day?
Other deaths we fear
Are much too near.
Somehow beyond our ken
Though there are precedents.
All of us are shocked to hear
Sad and weeping residents
Tell the story.
Just across the road
A local man on overload
Of drugs or drink, but then
It might be loneliness,
Who will ever know,
Killed his three children,
Then shot himself.
Was it only yesterday
Those children played
Out here with ours?
What could anyone have done
To make them safe
If crazy men still have the power
To own a gun?
Roger @ 48, you’d probably have more success getting that into Quadrant. After all, there are even more lunatics there than at The Australian.
DI(nr)
Of course. What was I thinking?
Patricia WA @ 53,
Interesting. One of the young Aboriginal kids next door (aged, I think about 13 now, who I’ve known for years and years) who sometimes uses my computer is very distressed about this father killing his children. She seems to think he was a stepfather (she doesn’t have a stepfather but I think her old man is in gaol or has a restraining order on him coming to the house. The cops carted him away at the beginning of the year.)She wants me to go and find out all about this murder in, I gather, Perth, and write a book on it!
Re Bob Ellis’ article, Ratzinger might decide he’s not going on his planned trip to the UK:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7094310.ece
And about time, what makes the Vatican think they’re immune to prosecution under International/ICC law?
(Looking forward to some more Papal “Bull” such as “We are not intimidated by teh idle gossip of teh infidel atheists”?)
It was. Half a cigar for dylwah. – fair call joe2, tho i’ll take half a cigar if it is one of those especially designed for Che after his dr told him to cut down to one a day.
gaols can be rehabilitative, it is not what they are really for at the moment tho. So to not let people out ’cause they are not deemed to have been rehabilitated is a bit rough. it also doesn’t help that so many people incarcerated are victims of this failed war on drugs.
@51,
Yes but for how long should we keep them off the streets? and which ones are the dangerous bastards? What about Geoffey Archer? His books are crap but I’m afraid that I couldn’t agree with having him incarcerated permanently. And anyway what if people say they have been rehabilitated but they are just tricking you? What will you do then? I’m sorry if these issues are difficult for you but you see if you want to get your policy up you’re going to have to have answers to these questions. Loony, left wing civil libertarians run (or should I say ruin) the jails doncha know?
Yes, Paul @ 56, well might some children fear when this sort of thing happens. It was in Melbourne and apparently the man seemed healthy and happy with his family and not, as I thought from earlier radio reports, an estranged husband with weekend access to his kids. I have modified the last verse to reflect that reality, but also to pose the question about why people are still able to purchase guns so easily?
Was it only yesterday
Those children played
Out here with ours?
What could we have done
To make them safe
If anyone still has the power
To own a gun?
Can’t see why anybody in the city would want a gun. They’re useful of the farm in country areas – killing starving or burnt sheep for instance, or for killing rabbits. Howard’s gun control is the only thing he did I ever approved of. OTOH, if we ever get invaded the resistance movements might be a bit short of arms.
Worst. idea. ever.
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/breakfast/stories/2010/2869944.htm
Well, I suppose that’s going a bit far, we could paint all schoolchildren with radioactive paint in order to track them 24/7 or remove everybody’s arms and legs to save money on accidental fractures and overuse injury. But this idea is right up there in terms of sheer silliness, bloodyminded wrong framing off the question/problem, and unworkability, with a side serve of really nasty unforeseen consequences – not entirely unforseen, because even a dolt like me can foresee them.
There actually is a Geoffrey Archer and he’s not the one who went to jail. Unfortunate confluence of names. Writes spy thrillers or somesuch.
Helen @ 62,
What if this happened?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8604360.stm
@63
Thanks for that. I apologise to Geoffrey Archer, who would have thought?
“He specialises in military adventures and spy thrillers and created the character Sam Packer.”
Paul, that’d be the least of it!
Listen to the whole report folks, it’s a nightmare. They want backyard breeding like the puppy mills for dogs and cats, and animal export for profit!! BECAUSE THAT’S BEEN SO GOOD FOR DOMESTIC ANIMALS HERE!! Oh, wait…
Tigtog has a post up at HAT about this.
Helen – I think whether or not it turns out well will be dependent on how well the animals they choose are able to handle a suburban situation as well as what sort of regulation/licensing/training is required for owners – especially initially. At the very least it has the potential to displace cats and dogs if people buy native animals as pets instead of them. And perhaps make local councils address existing problems such as wandering cats – people are going to be a whole more upset about one of their native pets getting killed by a wandering dog or cat than they are of a random native animal.
Chris, the problems are too multifarious to set out here. Must write a post on it.
Shorter version: We have created so much suffering for our domestic animals, why the hell are we suggesting doing it to the native animals?
Helen, I agree there are potentially very many problems if its not well thought out. Certainly don’t want the equivalent of puppy/kitten farms and I’d be very happy if pet stores did not actually sell animals like cats or dogs. But I think getting real widespread public support for habitat for native animals is very difficult. And private ownership of native animals may be an effective way of, as a side effect, educating people.
There are many loved and well looked after cats & dogs out there – it should be possible for the same to happen for some of Australia’s native animals.
Prodders,
I am looking for a good detailed paper that I can access online on the subject of the Keating government’s record on Unemployment.
As you know the Coalition attacks Keating (and the ALP broadly) on Keating’s interest rates and ‘one million unemployed’.
Was Keating clueless on Unemployment, a victim of international conditions, or were other factors in play? I haven’t located a systematic treatment on the subject yet.
The closest I have seen are some very small pieces from Quiggin that says Keating did not have a direct target or targeted policy on Employment until after the 1993 election when ‘Working Nation’ was developed, but that only ran two years and so Employment was dropped from Keating’s agenda having never formed a central part of keating’s policy thrust.
Any links appreciated.
- barra
This is probably the right place for this until a refloating post:
Coral damage worse than thought: reef authority
I remember the first pictures of the grounded Shen Neng 1, seeing a milky substance flowing away from the ship. I didn’t think about it at first, but seeing a show which described the stopping distance of such ships as ‘miles’, I realised that the milky coloured water was the reef; pulverised limestone washing away.
Not the first, and definitely not the last scar left by Australian coal on our reefs. It was nicely cauterised by anti fouling paint, too.
Oh, and the ABC News reckons it has started leaking oil again…
A story that speaks for itself:
Child bride, 13, dies of internal injuries four days after arranged marriage in Yemen
Some fun from The Onion: U.S. Flag Recalled After Causing 143 Million Deaths
Studies conducted by the Annin & Company research and development department revealed that faulty U.S. flags have caused more than just injuries and deaths. During the mid-1950s, the flags were found to have the bizarre side effect of causing fear, paranoia, and hysterical behavior among millions of Americans. This was dismissed as an isolated event until September 2001, when similar symptoms reemerged on a massive scale.
As hazardous as the flags may be on their own, Annin & Company officials claimed the products become even more dangerous when used in conjunction with other common household items.
“When combined with alcohol, excessive patriotism, grief, or well-intentioned but ultimately misguided ideals, U.S. flags transform into ticking time bombs, just waiting to go off,” Burman said.
Exciting happenings around Burnsey’s place. Old guy a couple of flats up has been taken to hospital, will most likely go into a nursing home. Ambulance service has gone right up the real estate agent about cars being parked in flats driveway. Car owning tenants have been ordered to park cars in front of flats or around the back or they will be towed away. Old guy’s sister rang the cops about Aboriginal kids turning off power at fuse box as he is likely die with power off. Suspect cops have come down hard as there was no sign of kids yesterday or today. (I did expect a couple of them late yesterday afternoon coming round to use computer.)
Kids have torn numbers off newly installed letter boxes; (cost $1,000. Agent and owner extremely unimpressed).
Ah, life on the dark side.
“Kids have torn numbers off newly installed letter boxes; (cost $1,000. Agent and owner extremely unimpressed).”
They should just get a signwriter to paint the bloody numbers on and save all the fuss, Paul. We have older folk housing near here and they went for those wankey and expensive stick on block letters/numbers that I could tell would last about ten minutes and they did.
I think some-ones scribbled the numbers on with a black textra. So I’ve been told. Must check it out tomorrow morning.