By way of ‘progressing the story’ from Saturday’s round of demands for Kevin Rudd’s political execution from has been Labor figures and mining company director Keith De Lacy, The Australian‘s caravan has moved on. Over the weekend, the paper made an attempt to round up more credible figures to call for Rudd to go, and it’s obvious from this article that failed. It’s far from obvious from the headline, of course, and obligingly, unnamed sources and backbenchers purportedly provided the grumblings the campaign needs, filling column inches in other News Limited papers.
Enter the big guns, such as they are, firing broadsides from their Monday columns.
The theme of both Peter Van Onselen and Glenn Milne‘s pieces is that Kevin Rudd has one more Newspoll left in him (or two, according to Milne, if reality fails to play to script and the bar needs to be moved).
Newspoll returns after the return of federal parliament this week, and according to Van Onselen, “Rudd has one week to shape up”.
Milne’s farrago of faint praise points the way for how this story would develop should Gillard take the leadership – the knives are already being sharpened.
Let’s be very clear about what’s happening here. We’re going to read about this ‘narrative’ all week, and the same people writing it will bemoan that the government lacks ‘oxygen’ for its ‘message’, in the hope that having ensured that’s true, they can further shape reality by influencing the Labor caucus, and by necessity, Julia Gillard. If the ‘deadline’ passes and nothing happens, some other set of facts will be invented, and I’m sure that will occur, as Gillard’s far too smart to dance to the News Limited tune.
Meanwhile, Tony Abbott’s suitability for high office and the Coalition’s policy stance continue to go completely without scrutiny from the so-called ‘fourth estate’, and the implicit threat is that will continue, along with the relentless drumbeat of ‘Rudd in trouble’ stories, unless and until the ALP caves in.
Welcome to media politics, 2010 style.
On the other hand there is this…
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/06/14/media-narrative-demands-rudds-head-according-to-newspoll-timetable/#respond
On the other hand there is this…
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/06/14/media-narrative-demands-rudds-head-according-to-newspoll-timetable/#respond
@1 – Yes, tssk, and I linked to and wrote about that article in the post.
@1 – Yes, tssk, and I linked to and wrote about that article in the post.
I think it’s in the best interests of the Government to just ignore it. Even though the polls aren’t great, I don’t think that the average voter listens much to the relentless News Limited trolling. In fact maybe it’s sheer relentlessness will simply work in our favor — they are sounding desperate, like the mining council ads that run in every ad break in every channel.
I think it’s in the best interests of the Government to just ignore it. Even though the polls aren’t great, I don’t think that the average voter listens much to the relentless News Limited trolling. In fact maybe it’s sheer relentlessness will simply work in our favor — they are sounding desperate, like the mining council ads that run in every ad break in every channel.
Also, I think that De Lacy, if still a member, should be expelled forthwith, the rat.
Also, I think that De Lacy, if still a member, should be expelled forthwith, the rat.
Absolutely correct – ignore the polling, even if it gets worse. Keep Kevin and the RSPT unchanged.
Absolutely correct – ignore the polling, even if it gets worse. Keep Kevin and the RSPT unchanged.
@3 –
No, probably not, Tyro Rex. But the rub is that their self-fulfilling predictions about the government not having ‘oxygen’ to get another message across are true in the sense that this crap comes to occupy almost all the media space.
@3 –
No, probably not, Tyro Rex. But the rub is that their self-fulfilling predictions about the government not having ‘oxygen’ to get another message across are true in the sense that this crap comes to occupy almost all the media space.
Good post Mark, the party on the wrong side of the media loses – like the Coalition in 2007.
Rudd is an execrable dud – and was so back in 2007. Rudd is much more of a dud than Kim Beasely – but somhow managed to get the media behind him in a way that Kim never could. How in hell did he do that? Was it the wall to wall lies and promises? Celebrity candidates? Better communications? Or simply the timing?
I think it is sad that the media travels as a pack rather than scrutinising the issues. And I don’t mean just the Murdoch press – which has backed Labor (and Labour) more often than not recently.
Good post Mark, the party on the wrong side of the media loses – like the Coalition in 2007.
Rudd is an execrable dud – and was so back in 2007. Rudd is much more of a dud than Kim Beasely – but somhow managed to get the media behind him in a way that Kim never could. How in hell did he do that? Was it the wall to wall lies and promises? Celebrity candidates? Better communications? Or simply the timing?
I think it is sad that the media travels as a pack rather than scrutinising the issues. And I don’t mean just the Murdoch press – which has backed Labor (and Labour) more often than not recently.
Razor, you have no feeling for politics, really none at all. I know you think that the whole schmozzle is aiding and abetting your side of politics, and it probably is. But dumping Rudd or the RSPT would do absolutely no good, its pure weakness, and once there’s blood in the water … its all over. That’s why News Limited is calling for it.
Frankly the tension over the RSPT should be jacked up, the minerals council wants a fight, lets give them one. No-one really gives a shit about mining companies! We should start by addressing that fat exemption they get for their diesel fuel consumption. We can wrap it up as a new start on a Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme.
Razor, you have no feeling for politics, really none at all. I know you think that the whole schmozzle is aiding and abetting your side of politics, and it probably is. But dumping Rudd or the RSPT would do absolutely no good, its pure weakness, and once there’s blood in the water … its all over. That’s why News Limited is calling for it.
Frankly the tension over the RSPT should be jacked up, the minerals council wants a fight, lets give them one. No-one really gives a shit about mining companies! We should start by addressing that fat exemption they get for their diesel fuel consumption. We can wrap it up as a new start on a Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme.
I agree Tyro. Let us take the fight up to the mining bosses and live or die on that basis.
I think the most important part of this is a sapping operation — freeing their hostages. The government needs to declare that the lives of mining communities are not chump change in the mining bosses fight to escape paying their fair share. They need to say that no miner can lose his or her job on the basis of this proposed tax, and that in every case where a miner or contractor is retrenched allegedly because of “uncertainty associated with RSPT” that the state will step in and
a) seize the prospect in question by appointing a liquidator
b) audit the claim
c) reveal the truth by publicising all project viability-relevant documentation
d) guarantee all jobs in the interim
e) offer the original company a chance to rescind the claim and recover the prospect, or, failing that, hold a public auction for the prospect
This would be highly popular and I’m betting that Clive Palmer and Twiggy Forrest-style dissembling would sudddenly become rather scarce.
I agree Tyro. Let us take the fight up to the mining bosses and live or die on that basis.
I think the most important part of this is a sapping operation — freeing their hostages. The government needs to declare that the lives of mining communities are not chump change in the mining bosses fight to escape paying their fair share. They need to say that no miner can lose his or her job on the basis of this proposed tax, and that in every case where a miner or contractor is retrenched allegedly because of “uncertainty associated with RSPT” that the state will step in and
a) seize the prospect in question by appointing a liquidator
b) audit the claim
c) reveal the truth by publicising all project viability-relevant documentation
d) guarantee all jobs in the interim
e) offer the original company a chance to rescind the claim and recover the prospect, or, failing that, hold a public auction for the prospect
This would be highly popular and I’m betting that Clive Palmer and Twiggy Forrest-style dissembling would sudddenly become rather scarce.
Nevermind the Newscorp narrative, I prefer the LP narrative that Newscorp is solely responsible for Rudd’s fuckups.
Nevermind the Newscorp narrative, I prefer the LP narrative that Newscorp is solely responsible for Rudd’s fuckups.
People often repeat to me misinformation on a whole range of political issues. When I give them the facts I’ve garnered from blogs, the few more reputable opinion writers or from answers in Question Time, the invariable response is, “but why isn’t Rudd or one or other of his Ministers saying that? The answer, usually met with disbelief, is that they are, I’ve heard them.
The truth seems to be that, unless you are a political tragic continually monitoring all available information sources, you are unlikely to get a reliable account of the political story/issue of the day. There appears to be an almost universal blackout of any good news for the Government, or of evidence supporting their position. For example, how many non-blog readers are aware that China is contemplating some type of resource tax or that Brazil is taking greater control of its oil reserves? Or that other resource-rich countries are closely watching Australia’s fight to retain sovereignty of its assets?
Yet I bet every man and his dog will hear that BHP Billiton is spending up big in Sierra Leone to re-establish that country as a big provider of European iron ore. Certainly every threat of the miners to close up shop, no matter how transparently empty, is reported, although subsequent statements backing away from the hysterical hype receive scant attention.
The dearth of decent analysis of the RSPT and other major political issues in MSM is criminally negligent. That the ABC is no better than its commercial news competitors in print/radio/tv is an indictment of the current management and Board and a blot on Australian democracy.
People often repeat to me misinformation on a whole range of political issues. When I give them the facts I’ve garnered from blogs, the few more reputable opinion writers or from answers in Question Time, the invariable response is, “but why isn’t Rudd or one or other of his Ministers saying that? The answer, usually met with disbelief, is that they are, I’ve heard them.
The truth seems to be that, unless you are a political tragic continually monitoring all available information sources, you are unlikely to get a reliable account of the political story/issue of the day. There appears to be an almost universal blackout of any good news for the Government, or of evidence supporting their position. For example, how many non-blog readers are aware that China is contemplating some type of resource tax or that Brazil is taking greater control of its oil reserves? Or that other resource-rich countries are closely watching Australia’s fight to retain sovereignty of its assets?
Yet I bet every man and his dog will hear that BHP Billiton is spending up big in Sierra Leone to re-establish that country as a big provider of European iron ore. Certainly every threat of the miners to close up shop, no matter how transparently empty, is reported, although subsequent statements backing away from the hysterical hype receive scant attention.
The dearth of decent analysis of the RSPT and other major political issues in MSM is criminally negligent. That the ABC is no better than its commercial news competitors in print/radio/tv is an indictment of the current management and Board and a blot on Australian democracy.
Jacques, I don’t think there’s a LP narrative that Newscorp is responsible for Rudd’s fuck ups at all. Rudd’s fuck ups (e.g. stupid ETS announcement) are his own.
But if you believe News Corp, there are only fuck ups. For example, the BER stimulus was and is a marvelous success, the auditor-general says so, the principals say so, and I’m sure the builders and their workforce say so too. But not if you read the Australian, it’s all a terrible disaster out there. (I know you’re a libertarian, and will have a different view about Keynesian stimulus spending, but I would suggest that the data simply show that the stimulus worked and we avoided a recession – the only western nation to do so).
The thing is , that News Corp have already decided the spin on every story.
It’s easy to be against something. Every policy has a loser somewhere. Instead of debating the policy the media nowadays just amplify the loser’s whinging. Especially if those losers are already rich and powerful. Funny that. Yes and this happened to Howard in sections of the media too; but News Limited stuck to the narrative of the Howardista miracle comeback right up to election day, funnily enough. And Even though the ALP is in the situation that plenty of first term governments found themselves, Howard included, apparently it’s all death-riding straight to the bottom for the News Ltd pundits.
Jacques, I don’t think there’s a LP narrative that Newscorp is responsible for Rudd’s fuck ups at all. Rudd’s fuck ups (e.g. stupid ETS announcement) are his own.
But if you believe News Corp, there are only fuck ups. For example, the BER stimulus was and is a marvelous success, the auditor-general says so, the principals say so, and I’m sure the builders and their workforce say so too. But not if you read the Australian, it’s all a terrible disaster out there. (I know you’re a libertarian, and will have a different view about Keynesian stimulus spending, but I would suggest that the data simply show that the stimulus worked and we avoided a recession – the only western nation to do so).
The thing is , that News Corp have already decided the spin on every story.
It’s easy to be against something. Every policy has a loser somewhere. Instead of debating the policy the media nowadays just amplify the loser’s whinging. Especially if those losers are already rich and powerful. Funny that. Yes and this happened to Howard in sections of the media too; but News Limited stuck to the narrative of the Howardista miracle comeback right up to election day, funnily enough. And Even though the ALP is in the situation that plenty of first term governments found themselves, Howard included, apparently it’s all death-riding straight to the bottom for the News Ltd pundits.
“Yes and this happened to Howard in sections of the media too”
Yes, but as Phil Corey noted in the SMH today, Howard always had his defenders in the MSM, using their positions to put the best possible light on everything Howard did or didn’t do. Rudd and Labor have never had any defenders in the MSM, only attack dogs and the odd relatively impartial commentator, usually from Fairfax.
“Yes and this happened to Howard in sections of the media too”
Yes, but as Phil Corey noted in the SMH today, Howard always had his defenders in the MSM, using their positions to put the best possible light on everything Howard did or didn’t do. Rudd and Labor have never had any defenders in the MSM, only attack dogs and the odd relatively impartial commentator, usually from Fairfax.
Would the govt. get away with banning foreign media ownership?
Would the govt. get away with banning foreign media ownership?
The media giveth and the media taketh away
The media giveth and the media taketh away
John @ 14, I’ve also been toying with the idea of a Bell Telephone style breakup of a certain empire.
John @ 14, I’ve also been toying with the idea of a Bell Telephone style breakup of a certain empire.
Further to Matt C (15): that’s certainly what the media think
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2903940.htm
Further to Matt C (15): that’s certainly what the media think
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2903940.htm
Look….all Rudd has to do, to be safe in this election, is drop his secret support for coal off into forever, and come out with some believeable plan for a new green Australia.
In order to achieve this he would
First have to come out of the secret denialist closet and become a true climate change believer.
Tell his coal industry buddies that the game is up.
Understand the true risks that Australia faces.
Develop a green plan that is in tune with young Australian’s beliefs.
Any genuine and intelligent person can make this transition in a long weekend. Can Kevin 11 reinvent himself???
Supplementary changes..
Realise that just as Jack Mundy saved Sydney from a disasterously bleak architectural future, the Greens with their relentless pressure have served to protect Australia from a bleak environmental future. Make friends with the Greens and learn to work together.
It is time to discover and develop “team Australia”.
Look….all Rudd has to do, to be safe in this election, is drop his secret support for coal off into forever, and come out with some believeable plan for a new green Australia.
In order to achieve this he would
First have to come out of the secret denialist closet and become a true climate change believer.
Tell his coal industry buddies that the game is up.
Understand the true risks that Australia faces.
Develop a green plan that is in tune with young Australian’s beliefs.
Any genuine and intelligent person can make this transition in a long weekend. Can Kevin 11 reinvent himself???
Supplementary changes..
Realise that just as Jack Mundy saved Sydney from a disasterously bleak architectural future, the Greens with their relentless pressure have served to protect Australia from a bleak environmental future. Make friends with the Greens and learn to work together.
It is time to discover and develop “team Australia”.
Michelle Grattan I think it was who pointed out that Rudd had the ultimate defence against any move to topple him – he could call an election immediately.
But even then it’s worth remembering that Hawke only had 25 days in the job when he did over Malcolm Fraser. Gillard wouldn’t need any longer.
I think she won’t go for it, but late in the piece if the polls look dreadful it would be deliciously ironic if Newscorp’s efforts landed Julia in the job.
Michelle Grattan I think it was who pointed out that Rudd had the ultimate defence against any move to topple him – he could call an election immediately.
But even then it’s worth remembering that Hawke only had 25 days in the job when he did over Malcolm Fraser. Gillard wouldn’t need any longer.
I think she won’t go for it, but late in the piece if the polls look dreadful it would be deliciously ironic if Newscorp’s efforts landed Julia in the job.
Brian,
1. Gillard is no Hawke.
2. Hawke had the drover’s dog effect.
Brian,
1. Gillard is no Hawke.
2. Hawke had the drover’s dog effect.
This might sound strange, but if Rudd plays his cards right, the resource profits tax debate could be immensely beneficial to him politically and win him the next election. Yes, not many people support the tax; he is up against a well funded industry campaign; and right wing newspapers such as The Rentseekers Review. But how many of the people who do not support the tax actually care that much? Is it really going to affect the way that many people actually vote?
The collapse in Rudd’s was not due to the resource rent tax, it was due to the abandonment of the CPRS. This reinforced the view that he was a poll driven phoney rather than someone willing the make tough decisions and stood for something. Perceptions like this are far more important for peoples voting decisions than whether the agree or disagree with a proposed tax that they personally do not have to pay. If Rudd plays the resource tax debate in the right way, it could allow him to tell a story about what he stands for.
But what story should Rudd try to tell? What should Rudd stand for? Clive Hamilton made the important point that the attack on the tax by the mining industry is an attack on democracy. And Andrew Forrest is upset that if does not want to pay more tax, then he would have to “change the government”. In this debate, if I wanted to show that I stand for something, then I would rather be on the side of democracy than siding with special interests.
This might sound strange, but if Rudd plays his cards right, the resource profits tax debate could be immensely beneficial to him politically and win him the next election. Yes, not many people support the tax; he is up against a well funded industry campaign; and right wing newspapers such as The Rentseekers Review. But how many of the people who do not support the tax actually care that much? Is it really going to affect the way that many people actually vote?
The collapse in Rudd’s was not due to the resource rent tax, it was due to the abandonment of the CPRS. This reinforced the view that he was a poll driven phoney rather than someone willing the make tough decisions and stood for something. Perceptions like this are far more important for peoples voting decisions than whether the agree or disagree with a proposed tax that they personally do not have to pay. If Rudd plays the resource tax debate in the right way, it could allow him to tell a story about what he stands for.
But what story should Rudd try to tell? What should Rudd stand for? Clive Hamilton made the important point that the attack on the tax by the mining industry is an attack on democracy. And Andrew Forrest is upset that if does not want to pay more tax, then he would have to “change the government”. In this debate, if I wanted to show that I stand for something, then I would rather be on the side of democracy than siding with special interests.
I think some people on here give the MSM more credence than they deserve. Labor won the 2007 election in spite of Ltd News etc not because of them. News Ltd just about refused to run anything critical of WorkChoices and plenty of articles talking up what would supposedly happen to the economy if Labor got in and reversed the legislation. It was the polar opposite to what people were saying and thinking in the real world.
Also have we forgotten about all those anti-trade union ads from the Big Business union the TV stations were running in the lead up to that election, you know with the big burly trade union thugs turning off the shops lights or those ads from the Liberal Party featuring that guy talking about how well his workers were/are doing under WorkChoices only for it to be exposed he was ripping them off including his own son?
News Ltd etc did just about everything they could to get the Howard government re-elected (wheeling out Shamaham with the narrowing/preferred PM polling etc) and it blew up in their faces. Purely to try and save face I think most of their papers did a 180 and announced their support for a Rudd Labor government a day or two out from the election proving that even News Ltd can indeed read the polls and if they actually gave a shit about them they would’ve realised the polls turned in favour for Labor the very month the WorkChoices legislation came in (early 2006) and that was still when Beazley was the Labor leader too.
I think some people on here give the MSM more credence than they deserve. Labor won the 2007 election in spite of Ltd News etc not because of them. News Ltd just about refused to run anything critical of WorkChoices and plenty of articles talking up what would supposedly happen to the economy if Labor got in and reversed the legislation. It was the polar opposite to what people were saying and thinking in the real world.
Also have we forgotten about all those anti-trade union ads from the Big Business union the TV stations were running in the lead up to that election, you know with the big burly trade union thugs turning off the shops lights or those ads from the Liberal Party featuring that guy talking about how well his workers were/are doing under WorkChoices only for it to be exposed he was ripping them off including his own son?
News Ltd etc did just about everything they could to get the Howard government re-elected (wheeling out Shamaham with the narrowing/preferred PM polling etc) and it blew up in their faces. Purely to try and save face I think most of their papers did a 180 and announced their support for a Rudd Labor government a day or two out from the election proving that even News Ltd can indeed read the polls and if they actually gave a shit about them they would’ve realised the polls turned in favour for Labor the very month the WorkChoices legislation came in (early 2006) and that was still when Beazley was the Labor leader too.
Hmmm. Julia Gillard as PM. The BER fiasco, school tuckshops being built for the price of mansions, her anti union attitude, Julia’s general ignorance about education and schools, Julia’s love of using scab labour. Hey, hang on… She sounds like she is typical ALP material. Anyone but Gillard please. Anyone.
Hmmm. Julia Gillard as PM. The BER fiasco, school tuckshops being built for the price of mansions, her anti union attitude, Julia’s general ignorance about education and schools, Julia’s love of using scab labour. Hey, hang on… She sounds like she is typical ALP material. Anyone but Gillard please. Anyone.
Mark, irrespective of any agenda run by News the prospect of getting rid of Rudd seems quite attractive. Seems to me that the huge reduction in the primary vote is almost entirely due to him. I wonder if Rudd’s legacy will be Tony Abbott?
Mark, irrespective of any agenda run by News the prospect of getting rid of Rudd seems quite attractive. Seems to me that the huge reduction in the primary vote is almost entirely due to him. I wonder if Rudd’s legacy will be Tony Abbott?
Spana,
Have you ever done any project management?
Have you even read in detail about major projects?
Just about every major project has time and cost overruns…almost every one.
That is a fact of life, and if you think that the BER was a F**ckup, then so is almost every major single project ever undertaken by any institution, public or private (hey BHP shareholders, remember the briquette F**ckup?) in the western world (remember that stadium in London? The billion $ overrun one? The opera house, the snowy scheme? Just about every hospital ever built?).
The only difference is that the ALP actually does stuff, the coalition just lets infrastructure fall to bits and then puff itself off as a great financial manager because it.
With major projects, the only way that they normally end up on time and budget is by pure blind luck.
Thus a government that actually does something, is always vulnerable to one that does nothing.
(23 years of Liberal economic isolation behind tariffs and a wool boom from 49-72 with consequent industry inefficiency, three years of Whitlam having inherited this crock, and it was his fault the economy tanked?)
PUHLEEZ!
Spana,
Have you ever done any project management?
Have you even read in detail about major projects?
Just about every major project has time and cost overruns…almost every one.
That is a fact of life, and if you think that the BER was a F**ckup, then so is almost every major single project ever undertaken by any institution, public or private (hey BHP shareholders, remember the briquette F**ckup?) in the western world (remember that stadium in London? The billion $ overrun one? The opera house, the snowy scheme? Just about every hospital ever built?).
The only difference is that the ALP actually does stuff, the coalition just lets infrastructure fall to bits and then puff itself off as a great financial manager because it.
With major projects, the only way that they normally end up on time and budget is by pure blind luck.
Thus a government that actually does something, is always vulnerable to one that does nothing.
(23 years of Liberal economic isolation behind tariffs and a wool boom from 49-72 with consequent industry inefficiency, three years of Whitlam having inherited this crock, and it was his fault the economy tanked?)
PUHLEEZ!
My father used to tell me that the press was hysterically anti-Labor back in the 1940s, 50s, 60s & 70s, so what we are seeing in the Murdoch media is absolutely nothing that is new. It was interesting that Phillip Coorey, commenting in the SMH today said:
Oh how true that was. So when I wonder how come this diligent student of Machiavelli called John Howard looks like such a consummate power player compared to Kevin Rudd, I also wonder just how much influence the press has in making a second-rater look like a genius.
My father used to tell me that the press was hysterically anti-Labor back in the 1940s, 50s, 60s & 70s, so what we are seeing in the Murdoch media is absolutely nothing that is new. It was interesting that Phillip Coorey, commenting in the SMH today said:
Oh how true that was. So when I wonder how come this diligent student of Machiavelli called John Howard looks like such a consummate power player compared to Kevin Rudd, I also wonder just how much influence the press has in making a second-rater look like a genius.
Mark, yerrbut. I think the Murdochracy’s narrative in 2010 will be as effective as their 2007 narrative that Howard The Cunning will come from behind and win against the odds…
Mark, yerrbut. I think the Murdochracy’s narrative in 2010 will be as effective as their 2007 narrative that Howard The Cunning will come from behind and win against the odds…
…so far, this election is looking much more like 2004, with Abbott in the role of Latham, and Rudd in the Howard seat…
…so far, this election is looking much more like 2004, with Abbott in the role of Latham, and Rudd in the Howard seat…
Let’s be clear about the Australian’s agenda here -they’re pushing Gillard because they think she’s unelectable and are hoping her elevation to the Labor leadership will result in a Liberal victory, the prospect of which is what the paper’s right wing sycophants like Dennis Shanahan and Janet Albrechtsen are salivating for. It is no longer a credible source of news -then again it hasn’t been since Paul Kelly left the editor’s post.
And I like the way that the Australian (and some others that should know better) has tried to elevate Keith De Lacy to some kind of party elder status to give more credibility for his call for Rudd’s resignation when it’s plainly obvious that (1) most Labor people outside Queensland have never heard of him and (2) he’s a mining executive who has an agenda.
In all fairness to Glenn Milne, though, it’s a worthwhile noting that he is a serial offender when it comes to this type of leadership speculation. I remember back in February 2001 that Milne was writing an article about Howard would be replaced by Costello within a matter of weeks which was quite in similar in style and tone to this. I personally think the likely case is that Mr Milne has too much time on his hands -perhaps no-one takes him seriously -so he’s reduced to spending much of his time writing rubbish like this.
But putting all that aside. replacing Rudd with Gillard would be a disaster for the Labor Party at this stage. Replacing a leader at this stage of this election cycle would reek of petty desperation and history has shown that leaders who succeed their predecessor this close to an election generally go down to defeat. Besides I think Gillard would be out of depth in such a role at the moment -I think she probably needs more time and experience before she becomes Prime Minister and even then I’m not sure she’d be a successful one. She was quite a fan of Latham’s leadership style, I seem to remember, and we all know how that turned out
Let’s be clear about the Australian’s agenda here -they’re pushing Gillard because they think she’s unelectable and are hoping her elevation to the Labor leadership will result in a Liberal victory, the prospect of which is what the paper’s right wing sycophants like Dennis Shanahan and Janet Albrechtsen are salivating for. It is no longer a credible source of news -then again it hasn’t been since Paul Kelly left the editor’s post.
And I like the way that the Australian (and some others that should know better) has tried to elevate Keith De Lacy to some kind of party elder status to give more credibility for his call for Rudd’s resignation when it’s plainly obvious that (1) most Labor people outside Queensland have never heard of him and (2) he’s a mining executive who has an agenda.
In all fairness to Glenn Milne, though, it’s a worthwhile noting that he is a serial offender when it comes to this type of leadership speculation. I remember back in February 2001 that Milne was writing an article about Howard would be replaced by Costello within a matter of weeks which was quite in similar in style and tone to this. I personally think the likely case is that Mr Milne has too much time on his hands -perhaps no-one takes him seriously -so he’s reduced to spending much of his time writing rubbish like this.
But putting all that aside. replacing Rudd with Gillard would be a disaster for the Labor Party at this stage. Replacing a leader at this stage of this election cycle would reek of petty desperation and history has shown that leaders who succeed their predecessor this close to an election generally go down to defeat. Besides I think Gillard would be out of depth in such a role at the moment -I think she probably needs more time and experience before she becomes Prime Minister and even then I’m not sure she’d be a successful one. She was quite a fan of Latham’s leadership style, I seem to remember, and we all know how that turned out
I loved Albanese on Keith de Lacy “its is alleged he was treasurer of QLD sometime last century”
LOL!! I really think they need to crack more gags – start taking the piss out this empty media agenda.
I loved Albanese on Keith de Lacy “its is alleged he was treasurer of QLD sometime last century”
LOL!! I really think they need to crack more gags – start taking the piss out this empty media agenda.
Marks,
I am a teacher who works in schools. What disgusts me about this BER project even more than the overcharging is that it was done for economic reasosns to boost the ALP’s re-election and had little to do with education. The ALP, especially in QLD under Bligh has presided over neglect of state schools. So what we saw was a worried government deciding to throw money at schools without allowing them to address their needs. So our school got a new hall but guess what. There are still holes in walls, peeling paint, still a lack of resources, we still use old technology in the digital age, computers break down almost every day…. I could go on. But at least we have a new hall hey.
These halls will do nothing to address the crisis in education in this country. And there is a crisis. Gillard stands ready to take the reigns intent on more of the same union bashinf money splashing rot. No way. The ALP will be last on my ticket. As a unionist I say no way to Gillard.
Marks,
I am a teacher who works in schools. What disgusts me about this BER project even more than the overcharging is that it was done for economic reasosns to boost the ALP’s re-election and had little to do with education. The ALP, especially in QLD under Bligh has presided over neglect of state schools. So what we saw was a worried government deciding to throw money at schools without allowing them to address their needs. So our school got a new hall but guess what. There are still holes in walls, peeling paint, still a lack of resources, we still use old technology in the digital age, computers break down almost every day…. I could go on. But at least we have a new hall hey.
These halls will do nothing to address the crisis in education in this country. And there is a crisis. Gillard stands ready to take the reigns intent on more of the same union bashinf money splashing rot. No way. The ALP will be last on my ticket. As a unionist I say no way to Gillard.
Spana as a unionist says “YES, WAY!” to a return of work choices.
Spana as a unionist says “YES, WAY!” to a return of work choices.
Sorry Mark (all the way back @2) I was skim reading
Sorry Mark (all the way back @2) I was skim reading
@33 – no probs, tssk.
@33 – no probs, tssk.
Tyro Rex, what use is an ALP government when they threaten unions with using scab labour to get around work bans. What use it is when an ALP government takes unions to Industrial tribunals and teachers are faced with fines for industrial action? Gillard did this to Australia’s teacher unions last month. Using scab labour is a disgrace and a Gillard government should be last on any unionist’s ticket. Reminds me of Margeret Thatcher. ALP-Liberals. One party, two factions. Both anti union.
Tyro Rex, what use is an ALP government when they threaten unions with using scab labour to get around work bans. What use it is when an ALP government takes unions to Industrial tribunals and teachers are faced with fines for industrial action? Gillard did this to Australia’s teacher unions last month. Using scab labour is a disgrace and a Gillard government should be last on any unionist’s ticket. Reminds me of Margeret Thatcher. ALP-Liberals. One party, two factions. Both anti union.
I think a bigger danger to the ALP is the prospect of voters completely disengaging and donkey voting.
And all this “please keep Rudd over Gillard so Abbott can win reminds me of the classics.
“Please don’t throw me into the brier patch!”
I think a bigger danger to the ALP is the prospect of voters completely disengaging and donkey voting.
And all this “please keep Rudd over Gillard so Abbott can win reminds me of the classics.
“Please don’t throw me into the brier patch!”
I’ve had it with both of them. I’ll be voting for the Democratic Labor Party (apparently they are running in both the senate and Reps) and preferencing to Abbott, to make it clear that if the ALP betrays unions they will lose power. Keeping them in power because Abbott is slightly more conservative is crazy. The ALP must know that the price of selling out is opposition.
I’ve had it with both of them. I’ll be voting for the Democratic Labor Party (apparently they are running in both the senate and Reps) and preferencing to Abbott, to make it clear that if the ALP betrays unions they will lose power. Keeping them in power because Abbott is slightly more conservative is crazy. The ALP must know that the price of selling out is opposition.
Malcolm. Yep. Not that Jules wouldn’t be a great leader and there’s no doubt her time will come. It’s just so easy to see through the OO choir and their narrative. Given time for it to seep through to the punter it becomes clear and that’s why I think that Rudd will rebound. Dissatisfaction can be found whenever anything is done if that’s what you are looking for, but the vast majority are delighted with their improvements re warm/cool housing, improved school amenities, more jobs, finance for infrastructure etc. Take your time Kev. It’s really beginning to annoy an ever more anxious and panic stricken group of unread and irrelevant snake-oil salesmen and women who hold their employment by selling their souls to Murdoch.
Malcolm. Yep. Not that Jules wouldn’t be a great leader and there’s no doubt her time will come. It’s just so easy to see through the OO choir and their narrative. Given time for it to seep through to the punter it becomes clear and that’s why I think that Rudd will rebound. Dissatisfaction can be found whenever anything is done if that’s what you are looking for, but the vast majority are delighted with their improvements re warm/cool housing, improved school amenities, more jobs, finance for infrastructure etc. Take your time Kev. It’s really beginning to annoy an ever more anxious and panic stricken group of unread and irrelevant snake-oil salesmen and women who hold their employment by selling their souls to Murdoch.
“I am a teacher who works in schools”
Spana, I am a janitor who works in Queensland schools and I think you look a gift horse in the mouth way too much.
Yes, schools themselves were more of a vector for the stimulus and less the object – it was an easy way to roll out large amounts of spending quickly to prevent employment and agreggate demand from collapsing.
Yes they could have given money to each individual school to fuck around with for 12 months while admins and P&C’s niggled and argued but that would have defeated the purpose. Yes they could have been allowed to spend it on science equipment or textbooks or musical instruments or more computers – how many jobs do you think that would have saved? And if you spend $3 million on computers, they are obsolete and worthless in three or four years. I get sick of spearing a crowbar through the fucking things and dumping them because they are quickly outdated and useless. Spend $3 million on a library or a multipurpose hall, that building will still be delivering educational benefits in thirty or forty years time. Which would have been the better use of money?
I have lunch regularly with one of our admin officers whose husband is our local district director. He has inspected many such BER projects and is quite impressed with what has been delivered. We are about lats cab off the rank and have not yet recieved any major construction but I have seen the good work done at the school that my wife teaches at and it is a million times better than a kick in the arse.
And no, I am not a member of the Labor party. I am a QPSU member and have plenty of issues with both state and federal Labor and support the teachers campaign against the misuse of NAPLAN as comparative league tables.
But we need to consider the bigger picture here.
“I am a teacher who works in schools”
Spana, I am a janitor who works in Queensland schools and I think you look a gift horse in the mouth way too much.
Yes, schools themselves were more of a vector for the stimulus and less the object – it was an easy way to roll out large amounts of spending quickly to prevent employment and agreggate demand from collapsing.
Yes they could have given money to each individual school to fuck around with for 12 months while admins and P&C’s niggled and argued but that would have defeated the purpose. Yes they could have been allowed to spend it on science equipment or textbooks or musical instruments or more computers – how many jobs do you think that would have saved? And if you spend $3 million on computers, they are obsolete and worthless in three or four years. I get sick of spearing a crowbar through the fucking things and dumping them because they are quickly outdated and useless. Spend $3 million on a library or a multipurpose hall, that building will still be delivering educational benefits in thirty or forty years time. Which would have been the better use of money?
I have lunch regularly with one of our admin officers whose husband is our local district director. He has inspected many such BER projects and is quite impressed with what has been delivered. We are about lats cab off the rank and have not yet recieved any major construction but I have seen the good work done at the school that my wife teaches at and it is a million times better than a kick in the arse.
And no, I am not a member of the Labor party. I am a QPSU member and have plenty of issues with both state and federal Labor and support the teachers campaign against the misuse of NAPLAN as comparative league tables.
But we need to consider the bigger picture here.
De Lacy was responsible as Qld treasurer for the silly decisions that saw Goss ousted in 1995-6: closures of railway workshops, court houses etc. that kept regional communities going. Early on in his miserable tenure he led the charge to break election promises like the Sunshine Coast Motorway toll (Labor had promised to ditch it, de Lacy didn’t like the idea). More recently he’s been the front man for that ecological disaster and money-loser Cubbie Station. A pathetic promote of proven catastrophes.
De Lacy was responsible as Qld treasurer for the silly decisions that saw Goss ousted in 1995-6: closures of railway workshops, court houses etc. that kept regional communities going. Early on in his miserable tenure he led the charge to break election promises like the Sunshine Coast Motorway toll (Labor had promised to ditch it, de Lacy didn’t like the idea). More recently he’s been the front man for that ecological disaster and money-loser Cubbie Station. A pathetic promote of proven catastrophes.
There should have been an ‘r’ in ‘promoter’. Sticky key. In the interim it has occurred to me that he shares his pre-moniker with another much-hyped loser – de Lorean.
There should have been an ‘r’ in ‘promoter’. Sticky key. In the interim it has occurred to me that he shares his pre-moniker with another much-hyped loser – de Lorean.
Zorronsky @ 38
Yep, sure. That’s what the polls are saying, hey?
And that’s why less than 50% of Principals surveyed by the Auditor-General felt that school system/Education Authority designed projects represented value for money for their school.
(See the Auditor-General Report on the BER at Fig 7.9 on page 164),
Zorronsky @ 38
Yep, sure. That’s what the polls are saying, hey?
And that’s why less than 50% of Principals surveyed by the Auditor-General felt that school system/Education Authority designed projects represented value for money for their school.
(See the Auditor-General Report on the BER at Fig 7.9 on page 164),
That’s a lie, @42 Grigory.
The actual figure is 75% of principals are happy with what they have received.
This is the BER Audit Report.
http://www.anao.gov.au/download.cfm?item_id=42647CBE1560A6E8AA73B3B28909D220&binary_id=65BB81F91560A6E8AA4E9F670586C166
If you can’t manage that, try looking at this and tell me that the BER and other stimulus measures didn’t keep us out of a jobs recession.
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_90-7gfbA4VM/S-FUxsKFhAI/AAAAAAAACRU/Kxf2KYqOXqA/s1600-h/scan0005%5B5%5D.jpg
That’s a lie, @42 Grigory.
The actual figure is 75% of principals are happy with what they have received.
This is the BER Audit Report.
http://www.anao.gov.au/download.cfm?item_id=42647CBE1560A6E8AA73B3B28909D220&binary_id=65BB81F91560A6E8AA4E9F670586C166
If you can’t manage that, try looking at this and tell me that the BER and other stimulus measures didn’t keep us out of a jobs recession.
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_90-7gfbA4VM/S-FUxsKFhAI/AAAAAAAACRU/Kxf2KYqOXqA/s1600-h/scan0005%5B5%5D.jpg
Megan @ 26
I remember the years of the Whitlam government. There was a constant media barrage attacking Labor. I also recall media attacks on the Hawke gov’t in its early years. By that stage the Australian had basically turned into a right wing rag (believe it or not it was once a more progressive paper). Why I kept reading it for years and years I don’t know. But in the Howard years I gave up, By 2007 I’d even stopped reading it online, primarily for mental health reasons. As far as I’m concerned the Murdoch press is trash and the Oz/OO is the worst of the lot. Regular reading of it really does just addle the brain.
I also can’t be bothered with the ABC news/current affairs anymore either. I still look at the Age online and read a variety of blogs like LP and overseas online papers. But the behavior of the Murdoch press especially certainly justifies the dictum that I heard all the time in my youth ‘never believe anything you read in the papers’.
Megan @ 26
I remember the years of the Whitlam government. There was a constant media barrage attacking Labor. I also recall media attacks on the Hawke gov’t in its early years. By that stage the Australian had basically turned into a right wing rag (believe it or not it was once a more progressive paper). Why I kept reading it for years and years I don’t know. But in the Howard years I gave up, By 2007 I’d even stopped reading it online, primarily for mental health reasons. As far as I’m concerned the Murdoch press is trash and the Oz/OO is the worst of the lot. Regular reading of it really does just addle the brain.
I also can’t be bothered with the ABC news/current affairs anymore either. I still look at the Age online and read a variety of blogs like LP and overseas online papers. But the behavior of the Murdoch press especially certainly justifies the dictum that I heard all the time in my youth ‘never believe anything you read in the papers’.
I’ll be voting for the Democratic Labor Party
You really are insane in that case, Spana. Because the Labor party can’t deliver your socialist utopia you’re effectively voting for the Liberal party and Tony Abbott by an even more insane vector. Mad.
Remember that MP are meant to represent the entire electorate, dude. You may not like what the entire electorate is thinking, but that’s democracy for you. I don’t like the sound of what you would prefer at all.
Regarding ludicrous fabrication by the Australian, back-benchers would have to be huffing paint to believe a word of the “analysis”. Rudd got in due to, in order:
1) WorkChoices
2) Appearing boring and conservative in the literal sense, ie safe
3) Bypassing the press gallery and communicating directly with the public through television programs like Sunrise etc.
As soon as a campaign is declared, Abbott’s supernova will become a black dwarf. Everything will be fine as long as Labor does nothing stupid, and pulls out a few tasty “conviction” policies in the campaign.
I’ll be voting for the Democratic Labor Party
You really are insane in that case, Spana. Because the Labor party can’t deliver your socialist utopia you’re effectively voting for the Liberal party and Tony Abbott by an even more insane vector. Mad.
Remember that MP are meant to represent the entire electorate, dude. You may not like what the entire electorate is thinking, but that’s democracy for you. I don’t like the sound of what you would prefer at all.
Regarding ludicrous fabrication by the Australian, back-benchers would have to be huffing paint to believe a word of the “analysis”. Rudd got in due to, in order:
1) WorkChoices
2) Appearing boring and conservative in the literal sense, ie safe
3) Bypassing the press gallery and communicating directly with the public through television programs like Sunrise etc.
As soon as a campaign is declared, Abbott’s supernova will become a black dwarf. Everything will be fine as long as Labor does nothing stupid, and pulls out a few tasty “conviction” policies in the campaign.
Patrickg, as long as you remember the DLP’s historic mission to the Coalition Commonwealth and State governments in Queensland and Victoria—a pre-internet concern trolling operation of epic proportions—Spana’s preference makes perfect sense.
Redirecting votes from Labor to the Coalition is just how they roll.
Patrickg, as long as you remember the DLP’s historic mission to the Coalition Commonwealth and State governments in Queensland and Victoria—a pre-internet concern trolling operation of epic proportions—Spana’s preference makes perfect sense.
Redirecting votes from Labor to the Coalition is just how they roll.
patrickg. My philosophy is this. Under the Liberals unions are strong They know their enemy and what they stand for. They are prepared to fight. Under the ALP the unions are weak. The ALP co-opts their leaders, bans strikes, lies to unions about what they will do and then appeals to them to vote for them becaue the Liberals are worse. This is called being taken advantage of. You may be prepared to be taken advantage of and used to elect a bunch of careerist sell out ALP MPS but I am not.
Yeah. Keep on voting for the ALP because soon they will stand for less than nothing. A person who votes always for the ALP has thrown away their power. If the ALP knew that unions and workers would punish it for its sell outs and betrayals (think privatisation in QLD) then they may think twicw before they ban the next strike. The ALP are worse than the Liberals because the Liberals are up front with the fact they are no friend of the unions. The ALP pretend to be and then betray us. Every time. And in my world that is far worse than a Liberal philosophical position which opposes unions.
patrickg. My philosophy is this. Under the Liberals unions are strong They know their enemy and what they stand for. They are prepared to fight. Under the ALP the unions are weak. The ALP co-opts their leaders, bans strikes, lies to unions about what they will do and then appeals to them to vote for them becaue the Liberals are worse. This is called being taken advantage of. You may be prepared to be taken advantage of and used to elect a bunch of careerist sell out ALP MPS but I am not.
Yeah. Keep on voting for the ALP because soon they will stand for less than nothing. A person who votes always for the ALP has thrown away their power. If the ALP knew that unions and workers would punish it for its sell outs and betrayals (think privatisation in QLD) then they may think twicw before they ban the next strike. The ALP are worse than the Liberals because the Liberals are up front with the fact they are no friend of the unions. The ALP pretend to be and then betray us. Every time. And in my world that is far worse than a Liberal philosophical position which opposes unions.
“Redirecting votes from Labor to the Coalition is just how they roll.”
I thought this was ” … is just how they troll.”
cos that has to be the sort of position that says, “man i hate the alp they said something bad once to a union so i’m gunna preference tony abbott via the DLP” … that’s just an outstanding troll right there.
Spana was never gunna vote alp.
“Redirecting votes from Labor to the Coalition is just how they roll.”
I thought this was ” … is just how they troll.”
cos that has to be the sort of position that says, “man i hate the alp they said something bad once to a union so i’m gunna preference tony abbott via the DLP” … that’s just an outstanding troll right there.
Spana was never gunna vote alp.
“That’s a lie, @42 Grigory.”
Another favorite trick of the right wing. Repeat the lie and keep repeating it.
“That’s a lie, @42 Grigory.”
Another favorite trick of the right wing. Repeat the lie and keep repeating it.
Good for nuts tho’.
Good for nuts tho’.
Under the Liberals unions are strong
This completely flies in the face of a reality when union memberships continued their long decline under >10 years of Howard govt.
Spanner, if you have such a problem with the ALP (and I can see why you would), then vote for socialist left alliance or whatever and then preference them. You let the perfect be the enemy of anything less-than-perfect (which you will always get in a democracy). And yes, sometimes less-than-perfect will be almost totally shitehouse, but if you honestly think your job, the country, your beloved unions and the working conditions that are the only reason for their existence will be better under an Abbott government, you’re crazy.
Also, as Liam states, the DLP exist purely as a front for the coalition. Screw your courage to the stick place, cut out the middleman and vote Liberal if that’s your intention.
Under the Liberals unions are strong
This completely flies in the face of a reality when union memberships continued their long decline under >10 years of Howard govt.
Spanner, if you have such a problem with the ALP (and I can see why you would), then vote for socialist left alliance or whatever and then preference them. You let the perfect be the enemy of anything less-than-perfect (which you will always get in a democracy). And yes, sometimes less-than-perfect will be almost totally shitehouse, but if you honestly think your job, the country, your beloved unions and the working conditions that are the only reason for their existence will be better under an Abbott government, you’re crazy.
Also, as Liam states, the DLP exist purely as a front for the coalition. Screw your courage to the stick place, cut out the middleman and vote Liberal if that’s your intention.
Tyro Rex,
I am an ex ALP member. I resigned in disgust a decade or more ago over privatisation, ALP support for the Indonesian occupation of East Timor and training of Indonesian troops and increasing organisational control by a minority. Members were not much more than letter box stuffers. I saw good people sell out very quickly to climb the staffer career ladder and before long they may as well have been Liberals.
I have since voted Green (but stopped because of their support for abortion), independent and informal once or twice. I have never voted Liberal and view the ALP and Libs as pretty much committed to the same thing – the big end of town. So you are right. After seeing the inside of the ALP I will never vote for them again. However, I am not chained to this rubbish though that they are any better or offer workers anything more than the Libs. So yes, I will preference to the Libs because I know it makes absolutley difference.
Tyro Rex,
I am an ex ALP member. I resigned in disgust a decade or more ago over privatisation, ALP support for the Indonesian occupation of East Timor and training of Indonesian troops and increasing organisational control by a minority. Members were not much more than letter box stuffers. I saw good people sell out very quickly to climb the staffer career ladder and before long they may as well have been Liberals.
I have since voted Green (but stopped because of their support for abortion), independent and informal once or twice. I have never voted Liberal and view the ALP and Libs as pretty much committed to the same thing – the big end of town. So you are right. After seeing the inside of the ALP I will never vote for them again. However, I am not chained to this rubbish though that they are any better or offer workers anything more than the Libs. So yes, I will preference to the Libs because I know it makes absolutley difference.
Also, re: that figure in the ANAO report into the BER. Right underneath the graph (which also shows that over 75% of principals were happy if their *school* designed their building, as opposed to their state education dept) .. there’s this line:
Anyway, this is an argument about ‘value-for-money’ the one Tory talking point that emerged from this report. And the ‘value-for-money’ as clearly indicated by the paragraph above, is goverened by the states, not the commonwealth.
Just like they tried to blame the commonwealth for a state-based OH&S regime in the insulation issue.
Also, re: that figure in the ANAO report into the BER. Right underneath the graph (which also shows that over 75% of principals were happy if their *school* designed their building, as opposed to their state education dept) .. there’s this line:
Anyway, this is an argument about ‘value-for-money’ the one Tory talking point that emerged from this report. And the ‘value-for-money’ as clearly indicated by the paragraph above, is goverened by the states, not the commonwealth.
Just like they tried to blame the commonwealth for a state-based OH&S regime in the insulation issue.
Spana – would you please take Stephen Conroy with you?
Ta.
As a complete aside, does anybody else think that Kevin Rudd looks a bit like BA Santamaria?
Spana – would you please take Stephen Conroy with you?
Ta.
As a complete aside, does anybody else think that Kevin Rudd looks a bit like BA Santamaria?
Tyro@9.28pm Synchronicity
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/06/01/gaza-aid-flotilla-attack/#comment-890066
Tyro@9.28pm Synchronicity
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/06/01/gaza-aid-flotilla-attack/#comment-890066
patrickg. I think your analysis of the DLP is not accurate but perhaps that debate is for another place. The DLP are not a front for the coalition. They are an economically left and socially conservative party which pretty much sums up my views. They oppose privatisation so I don’t see how that makes them a front for the coalition. They supported people defecting from the LNP.
Patrick, my issue with the ALP is the lies and betrayal. This is a party that tries to outlaw strikes. A Labor party outlawing strikes! Disgusting. Truy disgusting. I would never vote for any socialist allaince either. A vote for the ALP locks us into two party politics.
patrickg. I think your analysis of the DLP is not accurate but perhaps that debate is for another place. The DLP are not a front for the coalition. They are an economically left and socially conservative party which pretty much sums up my views. They oppose privatisation so I don’t see how that makes them a front for the coalition. They supported people defecting from the LNP.
Patrick, my issue with the ALP is the lies and betrayal. This is a party that tries to outlaw strikes. A Labor party outlawing strikes! Disgusting. Truy disgusting. I would never vote for any socialist allaince either. A vote for the ALP locks us into two party politics.
It’s not a lie, John @ 43
Take a look at the graph/bar chart at Figure 7.9 on page 164 of the Auditor-General’s Report.
The graph represents Principals’ responses to the survey statement “The use of BER P21 money for my school represents value-for-money’ by who commissioned its design”
Looking at the graph -
The dark blue bar in the top half of the graph quite clearly shows that less than 50% of Principals surveyed by the Auditor-General agreed with that statement where the projects were designed by the school system/Education Authority
Just to be sure you have it right, what I said at 42 above was:
That’s OK, apology accepted.
Now, in the bottom half of the same graph there is another bar, the dark blue portion of which shows that more than 75% of Principals agreed with the survey statement where the projects were designed by their school.
All clear now?
BTW Didn’t need the links. I have my own copy of the Report (had it since it was released)
It’s not a lie, John @ 43
Take a look at the graph/bar chart at Figure 7.9 on page 164 of the Auditor-General’s Report.
The graph represents Principals’ responses to the survey statement “The use of BER P21 money for my school represents value-for-money’ by who commissioned its design”
Looking at the graph -
The dark blue bar in the top half of the graph quite clearly shows that less than 50% of Principals surveyed by the Auditor-General agreed with that statement where the projects were designed by the school system/Education Authority
Just to be sure you have it right, what I said at 42 above was:
That’s OK, apology accepted.
Now, in the bottom half of the same graph there is another bar, the dark blue portion of which shows that more than 75% of Principals agreed with the survey statement where the projects were designed by their school.
All clear now?
BTW Didn’t need the links. I have my own copy of the Report (had it since it was released)
Spana, now you’re just trolling. “This is a party that tries to outlaw strikes.” … Are you like 100 years old and remember some distant golden age??? Chifley — famously — brought the bloody troops down the coal mines in 49!!! The ALP has never just rolled over to every random union demand.
Spana, now you’re just trolling. “This is a party that tries to outlaw strikes.” … Are you like 100 years old and remember some distant golden age??? Chifley — famously — brought the bloody troops down the coal mines in 49!!! The ALP has never just rolled over to every random union demand.
Grigory, and what’s the para right under the graph?
Grigory, and what’s the para right under the graph?
Now you’re trolling Tyro Rex.
Para 7.28 “right under the graph” is simply the Auditor-General regurgitating the opinion of the NSW Department of Education. Not really what you might call quality auditing.
Now you’re trolling Tyro Rex.
Para 7.28 “right under the graph” is simply the Auditor-General regurgitating the opinion of the NSW Department of Education. Not really what you might call quality auditing.
but grigory, that’s just *your* opinion.
and all that long document and that’s the only critique you’ve mounted. no government program is perfect.
but grigory, that’s just *your* opinion.
and all that long document and that’s the only critique you’ve mounted. no government program is perfect.
@57
A lie by omission is still a lie.
And great, let’s talk about community perceptions of waste. NB: PERCEPTIONS of waste, not ACTUAL waste. Here’s a quote from the report
” In many cases, concerns from principals and community members about value?for?money relate to a misunderstanding of the building standards Education Authorities are expected to adhere to in building education infrastructure. This was pointed out, for example, by the NSW Department of Education in its submission to the Senate Education, Employment and Workplace Relations Committee Inquiry into BER P21:
It should be noted that local quotes are often found to be competitive with those obtained through the Managing Contractors’ tender processes. However, there have been instances where local quotes have been presented to the BER Program Office which at first glance appear far less costly than their estimates, but which on further examination did not represent value for money in terms of quality of the product required to meet the Schools’ Facilities Standards.220″
At the end there, it quotes footnote 220, which is this:
” NSW Government Submission to the Senate Education, Employment and Workplace Relations Committee Inquiry into the ‘Primary Schools for the Twenty First Century’, p. 9. The department also noted: At Epping North Public School for example, a parent and builder on the [parents’ and citizens’ committee] indicated he could complete the building works cheaper than the managing contractor’s estimated price for a hall, [covered outdoor learning area] and canteen. The BER [integrated program office] arranged for the managing contractor to include this builder in the tender process. His quote was the most expensive option at well over $3 million for the project—or 50 per cent higher than his original claim.”
Maybe read the words, Grigory, rather than just looking at the pretty pictures.
@57
A lie by omission is still a lie.
And great, let’s talk about community perceptions of waste. NB: PERCEPTIONS of waste, not ACTUAL waste. Here’s a quote from the report
” In many cases, concerns from principals and community members about value?for?money relate to a misunderstanding of the building standards Education Authorities are expected to adhere to in building education infrastructure. This was pointed out, for example, by the NSW Department of Education in its submission to the Senate Education, Employment and Workplace Relations Committee Inquiry into BER P21:
It should be noted that local quotes are often found to be competitive with those obtained through the Managing Contractors’ tender processes. However, there have been instances where local quotes have been presented to the BER Program Office which at first glance appear far less costly than their estimates, but which on further examination did not represent value for money in terms of quality of the product required to meet the Schools’ Facilities Standards.220″
At the end there, it quotes footnote 220, which is this:
” NSW Government Submission to the Senate Education, Employment and Workplace Relations Committee Inquiry into the ‘Primary Schools for the Twenty First Century’, p. 9. The department also noted: At Epping North Public School for example, a parent and builder on the [parents’ and citizens’ committee] indicated he could complete the building works cheaper than the managing contractor’s estimated price for a hall, [covered outdoor learning area] and canteen. The BER [integrated program office] arranged for the managing contractor to include this builder in the tender process. His quote was the most expensive option at well over $3 million for the project—or 50 per cent higher than his original claim.”
Maybe read the words, Grigory, rather than just looking at the pretty pictures.
Still trolling, eh Tyro Rex?
John, there’s only one liar in this conversation and it ain’t me.
Still trolling, eh Tyro Rex?
John, there’s only one liar in this conversation and it ain’t me.
Bad enough that Limited News is beating up this non-story. But every time I tune into an abc “news” bulletin THEY’RE in there thrashing it too!
The ABC isn’t any better than the OO these days. Between them they wield such influence that democracy itself is under active attack, right now.
Bad enough that Limited News is beating up this non-story. But every time I tune into an abc “news” bulletin THEY’RE in there thrashing it too!
The ABC isn’t any better than the OO these days. Between them they wield such influence that democracy itself is under active attack, right now.
Tyro Rex
Jun 14th, 2010 at 10:07 pm
Grigory, and what’s the para right under the graph?
Tyro & john, the right thing to do is to acknowledge that Grigory was right @42, and simply apologise.
Tyro Rex
Jun 14th, 2010 at 10:07 pm
Grigory, and what’s the para right under the graph?
Tyro & john, the right thing to do is to acknowledge that Grigory was right @42, and simply apologise.
PeterTB, Grigory, trolls of the first order who can’t read or quote a report accurately.
What about figure 7.11 on page 167? Don’t see that being quoted by you lot. Nor do I see you quoting section 7.36:
So keep lying your lies, liars.
PeterTB, Grigory, trolls of the first order who can’t read or quote a report accurately.
What about figure 7.11 on page 167? Don’t see that being quoted by you lot. Nor do I see you quoting section 7.36:
So keep lying your lies, liars.
@63
I’ve provided evidence for my arguments. Calling me a liar doesn’t make the truth different.
In regards to paragraph 7.28, I’m pretty sure the NSW Department of Education knows a great deal more about the administration of this programme than you do.
@63
I’ve provided evidence for my arguments. Calling me a liar doesn’t make the truth different.
In regards to paragraph 7.28, I’m pretty sure the NSW Department of Education knows a great deal more about the administration of this programme than you do.
Sorry Tyro Rex, hard to keep up with your trolling.
Two liars, and neither of them is me or PeterTB.
Sorry Tyro Rex, hard to keep up with your trolling.
Two liars, and neither of them is me or PeterTB.
Grigory, show me exactly where I’ve lied in this debate about your selective quoting of the BER? You can’t because I’ve quoted the report much more accurately than you have.
The BER is an outstanding success, it “contributed to a reversal in the decline in non?residential construction activity that resulted from the global financial crisis”; and for educational outcomes “a substantial majority of school principals have also been positive about the improvement in primary school facilities” as well as the other stakeholders.
Yet apparently you have some single statistic on a PERCEPTION that apparently says otherwise … that’s immediately contradicted by following evidence.
Remember this is the report you Tories called for, then cried foul when it called out your lying as exactly that.
And like just about every other lying liar in the known Universe, apparently all evidence that refutes your lying, is met with more lies. Of course you can’t keep up with the truth. Scurry off now please back under your rock, liars.
Goodnight!
Grigory, show me exactly where I’ve lied in this debate about your selective quoting of the BER? You can’t because I’ve quoted the report much more accurately than you have.
The BER is an outstanding success, it “contributed to a reversal in the decline in non?residential construction activity that resulted from the global financial crisis”; and for educational outcomes “a substantial majority of school principals have also been positive about the improvement in primary school facilities” as well as the other stakeholders.
Yet apparently you have some single statistic on a PERCEPTION that apparently says otherwise … that’s immediately contradicted by following evidence.
Remember this is the report you Tories called for, then cried foul when it called out your lying as exactly that.
And like just about every other lying liar in the known Universe, apparently all evidence that refutes your lying, is met with more lies. Of course you can’t keep up with the truth. Scurry off now please back under your rock, liars.
Goodnight!
@69
Hear hear!
@69
Hear hear!
OK troll, this was yours was it not?
Apology accepted. Sleep tight.
OK troll, this was yours was it not?
Apology accepted. Sleep tight.
Wall St. Journal owner Murdoch and son James of manipulated medical drug efficacy,through the Australisn are simply pointing out that Swine flu jabs were not needed so even Roxon acting like everyone’s girlfriend actually were only helping out the investments of Rumsfeld and Clinton.Poor Murdochs cannot get the Langwarrin ELDER TO REPLACE THE WINDSOR PERSON QUICKLY.Price Charles dashing into places angels fear to tread by heaping praise on Islam in Pommyland recently proved beyond all doubt he doesn’t give a stuff what Murdochs get up to and write through their journalists there.Good on him I say his anti war stance almost makes me forget previous shareholdings in Iranian pre-Khomeini Shah Oil interests.Murdoch Press has bellyached once to often.Xtrata Mines even was ranked at Rense.com as a silly fingered galoot company re the prospects around Nickel by a Chinese entrepreneur.Still rooting for young lass Hancock though, although she is a bit bitchy.So actually Rudd maybe backgrounding himself better than what people may actually think.What turned me off completely last two weeks were the dead soldiers of Afghanistan.Sickening ownership of historical comparison ceremony and ritual character assessment of dead, was a Houdini cage on the remaining and surviving loved ones.They seemed to have no rights to stop the publicity justification until they are buried respectfully at home within the Australian context.All this military stuff needs vegemite[ dick smith's perhaps] labels rather than flag half masts.Which all seems ridiculous patriotism.Central Australian Aboriginals have more rights over the publicity surrounding dead than enlisted serving personnel.I was extremely angry at all this,and yelled down the military and political persons everytime I heard them on ABC Radio. A war dogs breakfast of displays of commitment to phoney American interests. The Government could of done better than the instant report of dead and Rudd apologies following on the tail of each other on radio news.I couldn’t believe a report of the dead and apologies could be reported with what seemed less than a minutes’ silence.A boot up the arse of the ABC loyally allowing this Khyber Pass patriotism to show its ugly head.
Wall St. Journal owner Murdoch and son James of manipulated medical drug efficacy,through the Australisn are simply pointing out that Swine flu jabs were not needed so even Roxon acting like everyone’s girlfriend actually were only helping out the investments of Rumsfeld and Clinton.Poor Murdochs cannot get the Langwarrin ELDER TO REPLACE THE WINDSOR PERSON QUICKLY.Price Charles dashing into places angels fear to tread by heaping praise on Islam in Pommyland recently proved beyond all doubt he doesn’t give a stuff what Murdochs get up to and write through their journalists there.Good on him I say his anti war stance almost makes me forget previous shareholdings in Iranian pre-Khomeini Shah Oil interests.Murdoch Press has bellyached once to often.Xtrata Mines even was ranked at Rense.com as a silly fingered galoot company re the prospects around Nickel by a Chinese entrepreneur.Still rooting for young lass Hancock though, although she is a bit bitchy.So actually Rudd maybe backgrounding himself better than what people may actually think.What turned me off completely last two weeks were the dead soldiers of Afghanistan.Sickening ownership of historical comparison ceremony and ritual character assessment of dead, was a Houdini cage on the remaining and surviving loved ones.They seemed to have no rights to stop the publicity justification until they are buried respectfully at home within the Australian context.All this military stuff needs vegemite[ dick smith's perhaps] labels rather than flag half masts.Which all seems ridiculous patriotism.Central Australian Aboriginals have more rights over the publicity surrounding dead than enlisted serving personnel.I was extremely angry at all this,and yelled down the military and political persons everytime I heard them on ABC Radio. A war dogs breakfast of displays of commitment to phoney American interests. The Government could of done better than the instant report of dead and Rudd apologies following on the tail of each other on radio news.I couldn’t believe a report of the dead and apologies could be reported with what seemed less than a minutes’ silence.A boot up the arse of the ABC loyally allowing this Khyber Pass patriotism to show its ugly head.
Getting back to the subject of the post, didn’t Rupert promise to put all this crap online behind a paywall? Aren’t we seconds away from the end of newspapers as we knew them?
Come on Rupe, do us all a favour.
Getting back to the subject of the post, didn’t Rupert promise to put all this crap online behind a paywall? Aren’t we seconds away from the end of newspapers as we knew them?
Come on Rupe, do us all a favour.
Tyro @ 8 – Rudd has lost the trust of a large portion of the swinging voters – the ones who count. The RSPT is an electoral dog. If he backflips on the RSPT it isn’t going to help him, only make things worse. The only way the ALP can get away with a backdown on the RSPT is by getting rid of Rudd at the same time. Just as the Coalition over reached with WorkChoices, so the ALP has over-reached with the RSPT. The best thing for the ALP to do now is put their hands up and say “sorry, we made a mistake”, but they won’t because Rudd is too self-centred. Fortunately for the Coalition, Gillard doesn’t have the ovaries to make a challenge.
Tyro @ 8 – Rudd has lost the trust of a large portion of the swinging voters – the ones who count. The RSPT is an electoral dog. If he backflips on the RSPT it isn’t going to help him, only make things worse. The only way the ALP can get away with a backdown on the RSPT is by getting rid of Rudd at the same time. Just as the Coalition over reached with WorkChoices, so the ALP has over-reached with the RSPT. The best thing for the ALP to do now is put their hands up and say “sorry, we made a mistake”, but they won’t because Rudd is too self-centred. Fortunately for the Coalition, Gillard doesn’t have the ovaries to make a challenge.
@Grigory M,
as a commentor who has been posting here (with this nym, anyway) less than a week, for you to repeatedly call someone who’s been a regular here for years a “troll” is a really bad look. FYI.
@Grigory M,
as a commentor who has been posting here (with this nym, anyway) less than a week, for you to repeatedly call someone who’s been a regular here for years a “troll” is a really bad look. FYI.
@74 – Seconded.
And please note the comments policy.
@74 – Seconded.
And please note the comments policy.
Media narative
What I find amazing is relentless 24/7 demonising of Rudd/Labor Govt by ALL MSN , not just Murdoch , but by Faifax Media newspapers & Radio , and by TV comercial Stations plus ‘our ABC now lost , by selective editing & presenting a neg story usualy sensationalized followed by Abbotts appearanse critcal of Rudd/Labor Govt…
…..sensationalizing and demonizing Rudd/Labor govt in all areas of govt decision from ETS to 1.1 miillion homes Insulaton roll out to BER to 9,500 Schools to MySchool to National Educaton Syllabus to Health Insuranse Levy Bill to National Hospitals program to Net Filter to RSPT Supa Profits
PLUS I see it also in ‘progressive’ Sites Hosts and lo in bloggs including here…constant , from both ‘far left’ and ‘right’ politcal side
Do people actualy forget what happened in 12 years of Howard Govt , apparently yes
Even ‘narative’ of Rudd backflipping on CPRS is false….a Bill Rudd introduced 3 times and got rejected ….yet those politcal Groups WHO opposed these CPRS Bills ar very people who claim Rudd still should hav kept CPRS on his Agenda !
What for ? so those very opposing anti ETS Groups could keep rejecting those CPRS Bills that were never going to get passed , and also so that those very Groups opposing that CPRS could continue to gain politcal votes !
One can not be deemed to hav back flipped if you’ve introduced CPRS 3 times and its been rejected , Rudd accepted it was politcal reality of Senate numbers , it never was going to pass & those accusing rudd of a ‘backflip’ ar th very ones opposing this ETS & know they were always going to stop it passing
But that is also false MSN narative of Rudds deferral …I admit it was a poor stragetic politcal Rudd decision ( even though it was made on politcal reality of Senate numbers) has ALLOWED th very opponents of 3 CPRS Bills a further means of demonizing Rudd
…now to avoid this false ‘backflip” narative , Rudd instead of defering th then 2nd version of a 5% CPRS Bill that had been rejected) should hav “created” a 3rd 5% CPRS Bill for stragetic purposes positioning This would hav left Liberals with there deniest stanse ( with there claytons CC solution) and th Greens with there view that a 25% cut was needed
But paradoxicaly that would NOT change Rudds still current firm belief in CC and his view that a CPRS Bill was needed to mitigate co2
It does seem ‘naratives’ suit politcal bias when they in common with that bias , whereas actual polisy objections to say a CPRS by Liberals , or by Consevatives , or Greens or by Busines Lobby & Industry ar a completely different issue to debate , but get ‘lost’ in naratives and sensationalism or in plain MSN bias
Media narative
What I find amazing is relentless 24/7 demonising of Rudd/Labor Govt by ALL MSN , not just Murdoch , but by Faifax Media newspapers & Radio , and by TV comercial Stations plus ‘our ABC now lost , by selective editing & presenting a neg story usualy sensationalized followed by Abbotts appearanse critcal of Rudd/Labor Govt…
…..sensationalizing and demonizing Rudd/Labor govt in all areas of govt decision from ETS to 1.1 miillion homes Insulaton roll out to BER to 9,500 Schools to MySchool to National Educaton Syllabus to Health Insuranse Levy Bill to National Hospitals program to Net Filter to RSPT Supa Profits
PLUS I see it also in ‘progressive’ Sites Hosts and lo in bloggs including here…constant , from both ‘far left’ and ‘right’ politcal side
Do people actualy forget what happened in 12 years of Howard Govt , apparently yes
Even ‘narative’ of Rudd backflipping on CPRS is false….a Bill Rudd introduced 3 times and got rejected ….yet those politcal Groups WHO opposed these CPRS Bills ar very people who claim Rudd still should hav kept CPRS on his Agenda !
What for ? so those very opposing anti ETS Groups could keep rejecting those CPRS Bills that were never going to get passed , and also so that those very Groups opposing that CPRS could continue to gain politcal votes !
One can not be deemed to hav back flipped if you’ve introduced CPRS 3 times and its been rejected , Rudd accepted it was politcal reality of Senate numbers , it never was going to pass & those accusing rudd of a ‘backflip’ ar th very ones opposing this ETS & know they were always going to stop it passing
But that is also false MSN narative of Rudds deferral …I admit it was a poor stragetic politcal Rudd decision ( even though it was made on politcal reality of Senate numbers) has ALLOWED th very opponents of 3 CPRS Bills a further means of demonizing Rudd
…now to avoid this false ‘backflip” narative , Rudd instead of defering th then 2nd version of a 5% CPRS Bill that had been rejected) should hav “created” a 3rd 5% CPRS Bill for stragetic purposes positioning This would hav left Liberals with there deniest stanse ( with there claytons CC solution) and th Greens with there view that a 25% cut was needed
But paradoxicaly that would NOT change Rudds still current firm belief in CC and his view that a CPRS Bill was needed to mitigate co2
It does seem ‘naratives’ suit politcal bias when they in common with that bias , whereas actual polisy objections to say a CPRS by Liberals , or by Consevatives , or Greens or by Busines Lobby & Industry ar a completely different issue to debate , but get ‘lost’ in naratives and sensationalism or in plain MSN bias
Don’t think I can recall a more relentless media campaign than the one currently underway to unseat Rudd.
And it’s not just the Opposition Organ running with the script, everyone (including the ABC) appear to have jumped-on the bandwagon. It’s insidious, self-generating and baseless. The Foruth Estate gone feral.
Take the lead story from Friday’s ABC news: “Labour sources now calling for Rudd’s head.”
Yeah, right. As someone pointed-out above: A quote from some forgotten Qld Labor fossil formed the basis for this little gem.
Then there were the incisive questions to any sitting ALP pollie prepared to listen to them. Questions like: “People now say Rudd’s days are numbered, do you go along with that?” And some of the numbskulls actually answered, expressing support for Rudd.
Seems to me that what they should have replied is: “Which people (apart from Rupert Murdoch’s lap dogs) are spouting that crap?” Or: “Who did you get that idea from, Gen Milne?”
Ah yes, the old “people say” question. Straight out of the US Republican noise machine playbook: The perfect foundation for a sourceless smear and the last refuge of a journalistic scoundrel.
Fear not, good people.
As Mercurius says above, this is one of those Latham moments and the Meeja is having a temper tantrum. When the punters actually get to vote and realise that a vote for Tony Abbott is, well, a vote for Tony Abbott……..
Well, you get the idea.
Don’t think I can recall a more relentless media campaign than the one currently underway to unseat Rudd.
And it’s not just the Opposition Organ running with the script, everyone (including the ABC) appear to have jumped-on the bandwagon. It’s insidious, self-generating and baseless. The Foruth Estate gone feral.
Take the lead story from Friday’s ABC news: “Labour sources now calling for Rudd’s head.”
Yeah, right. As someone pointed-out above: A quote from some forgotten Qld Labor fossil formed the basis for this little gem.
Then there were the incisive questions to any sitting ALP pollie prepared to listen to them. Questions like: “People now say Rudd’s days are numbered, do you go along with that?” And some of the numbskulls actually answered, expressing support for Rudd.
Seems to me that what they should have replied is: “Which people (apart from Rupert Murdoch’s lap dogs) are spouting that crap?” Or: “Who did you get that idea from, Gen Milne?”
Ah yes, the old “people say” question. Straight out of the US Republican noise machine playbook: The perfect foundation for a sourceless smear and the last refuge of a journalistic scoundrel.
Fear not, good people.
As Mercurius says above, this is one of those Latham moments and the Meeja is having a temper tantrum. When the punters actually get to vote and realise that a vote for Tony Abbott is, well, a vote for Tony Abbott……..
Well, you get the idea.
@ 77, aww shucks Evan. Was just going to add, the Murdochracy wouldn’t be going ape-shit like this, unless they believed that Rudd will win the election in a canter. They are campaigning on behalf of their biggest advertisers (eg. Rio Tinto) to hang onto what they regard as “their” seat at the table in affairs of state. Never mind that newspapers and companies don’t vote, they’ve always sought to bend public opinion towards their own interests. They’re gonna go all-in on this. Hopefully democracy will prove sufficiently resilient against this latest push by corporatist neo-fascism.
@ 77, aww shucks Evan. Was just going to add, the Murdochracy wouldn’t be going ape-shit like this, unless they believed that Rudd will win the election in a canter. They are campaigning on behalf of their biggest advertisers (eg. Rio Tinto) to hang onto what they regard as “their” seat at the table in affairs of state. Never mind that newspapers and companies don’t vote, they’ve always sought to bend public opinion towards their own interests. They’re gonna go all-in on this. Hopefully democracy will prove sufficiently resilient against this latest push by corporatist neo-fascism.
Razor @ 73, well the polling shows that RSPT is about evenly split between support/don’t support so I don’t see that it’s a massive electoral loser like you say. What WA thinks about it is almost irrelevant, the ALP only hold 4 seats there. QLD is a little bit of a more difficult issue; but the LNP here is hardly united, it’s disendorsed a sitting candidate in a now-marginal seat (who toughed out the anti-howard swing) … i know there’s the whiff of corruption around Johnson but it was really internal LNP politics what did him in. They (the LNP) are in knives out for each other mode. So whatever the damage the RSPT does to the ALP here I’m not so sure it’s a massive loser like you think.
Razor @ 73, well the polling shows that RSPT is about evenly split between support/don’t support so I don’t see that it’s a massive electoral loser like you say. What WA thinks about it is almost irrelevant, the ALP only hold 4 seats there. QLD is a little bit of a more difficult issue; but the LNP here is hardly united, it’s disendorsed a sitting candidate in a now-marginal seat (who toughed out the anti-howard swing) … i know there’s the whiff of corruption around Johnson but it was really internal LNP politics what did him in. They (the LNP) are in knives out for each other mode. So whatever the damage the RSPT does to the ALP here I’m not so sure it’s a massive loser like you think.
Spana @ 31
“What disgusts me about this BER project even more than the overcharging is that it was done for economic reasosns to boost the ALP’s re-election and had little to do with education.”
It was done for economic reasons – there was a GFC in which most advanced economies in the world tanked. Ours did not. Part A.
It was also done so that economic stimulus would also have a positive effect on educational facilities in the future. Part B.
That was the stated aim, and any analysis should be based on the success of the program vs the stated aim.
If a teacher of a particular subject with two parts (A and B) were to provide a report on a child’s performance in that subject Spana, would it be professional for that teacher to ignore one of those parts in providing professional feedback to the child or its parents?
The aims of the BER program were clearly stated as being in two parts. It should be thus judged, and not sliced into bits, then judged merely on the bit that can be spun negatively, or in this case, ‘span’a bit.
Spana @ 31
“What disgusts me about this BER project even more than the overcharging is that it was done for economic reasosns to boost the ALP’s re-election and had little to do with education.”
It was done for economic reasons – there was a GFC in which most advanced economies in the world tanked. Ours did not. Part A.
It was also done so that economic stimulus would also have a positive effect on educational facilities in the future. Part B.
That was the stated aim, and any analysis should be based on the success of the program vs the stated aim.
If a teacher of a particular subject with two parts (A and B) were to provide a report on a child’s performance in that subject Spana, would it be professional for that teacher to ignore one of those parts in providing professional feedback to the child or its parents?
The aims of the BER program were clearly stated as being in two parts. It should be thus judged, and not sliced into bits, then judged merely on the bit that can be spun negatively, or in this case, ‘span’a bit.
patrickg in stating that the “DLP exist purely as a front for the coalition” misses the point for why the DLP exists. DLP members and I have been one since 1967 have found that they have a choice between two evils they have to either waste their vote or pass their vote to a party full of the evils of capitalism (LNP) or the evil of social immorality (ALP). for many years the alternative of the Greens/Democrats have the added disadvantage of being both economically evil and socially evil. Rudd’s problem is that he is neither economically evil nor sociually evil he is just plain power hungry and would implement Tony Abbot’s anti union economic policies or Julia Gillard’s socially evil anti life anti family anti nation policies to stay in power. Would any of the ALP like to tell us how an average AUstralian worker is better off after the end of Howard’s work choices. All that has gone is the name. THe DLP is opposed to the economic rationalism of both major parties but the threat to us in this electioon is that the anti human GReens will gain a balance of power in the Senate.
Andrew Jackson President Queensland DLP
patrickg in stating that the “DLP exist purely as a front for the coalition” misses the point for why the DLP exists. DLP members and I have been one since 1967 have found that they have a choice between two evils they have to either waste their vote or pass their vote to a party full of the evils of capitalism (LNP) or the evil of social immorality (ALP). for many years the alternative of the Greens/Democrats have the added disadvantage of being both economically evil and socially evil. Rudd’s problem is that he is neither economically evil nor sociually evil he is just plain power hungry and would implement Tony Abbot’s anti union economic policies or Julia Gillard’s socially evil anti life anti family anti nation policies to stay in power. Would any of the ALP like to tell us how an average AUstralian worker is better off after the end of Howard’s work choices. All that has gone is the name. THe DLP is opposed to the economic rationalism of both major parties but the threat to us in this electioon is that the anti human GReens will gain a balance of power in the Senate.
Andrew Jackson President Queensland DLP
Ron @ 76 – if human caused climate change is the greatest moral challenge of our time then he should have been prepared to go to a double dissolution election on it. The fact that he wasn’t shows that either he has back flipped or that it isn’t the challenge of the nature that he said it was.
Ron @ 76 – if human caused climate change is the greatest moral challenge of our time then he should have been prepared to go to a double dissolution election on it. The fact that he wasn’t shows that either he has back flipped or that it isn’t the challenge of the nature that he said it was.
Michael@44
I wonder how much influence the press has on people’s voting intentions. Australia is said to have a relatively sophisticated voting population, but I’ve always found it a deeply conservative one. I guess it’s not surprising considering our main revenue is mining and farming and our sovereignty is rooted in the subjugation and dispossession of the original inhabitants.
But what gets me are all the pillory postings on the anti-Rudd sprays in the Murdoch press. ‘K-Rudd has stuffed this country up!’ they roar with monotonous regularity. And this from people whose jobs and homes would have been lost without the Labor government’s deft handling of the GFC (though I wonder whether a lot of these ‘postings’ are done by Liberal staffers). It’s a worry…
Michael@44
I wonder how much influence the press has on people’s voting intentions. Australia is said to have a relatively sophisticated voting population, but I’ve always found it a deeply conservative one. I guess it’s not surprising considering our main revenue is mining and farming and our sovereignty is rooted in the subjugation and dispossession of the original inhabitants.
But what gets me are all the pillory postings on the anti-Rudd sprays in the Murdoch press. ‘K-Rudd has stuffed this country up!’ they roar with monotonous regularity. And this from people whose jobs and homes would have been lost without the Labor government’s deft handling of the GFC (though I wonder whether a lot of these ‘postings’ are done by Liberal staffers). It’s a worry…
Thnks Tgtg @ 74 nd Mrk @ 75.
Ths smd t b trlls t m, n mr prsstntly s thn th thrs. r thy nt?
Jhn @ 43 sd:
<blckqt>Tht’s l, @42 Grgry.
Tyr Rx @ 49 sd:
“Tht’s l, @42 Grgry.”
Rpt th l nd kp rptng t.
Zrrnsky @ 50 sd:
Gd fr nts th’.
Zrrnsky @ 55 sd:
Tyr@9.28pm Synchrncty
http://lrvtsprd.nt/2010/06/01/gz-d-fltll-ttck/#cmmnt-890066
Tyr Rx @ 58 sd:
Spn, nw y’r jst trllng.
Tyr Rx @ 59 sd:
Grgry, nd wht’s th pr rght ndr th grph?
Tyr Rx @ 61 sd:
bt grgry, tht’s jst *yr* pnn.
jhn @ 62 sd:
@57
l by mssn s stll l.
Tyr Rx @ 61 sd:
PtrTB, Grgry, trlls f th frst rdr wh cn’t rd r qt rprt ccrtly.
nd
S kp lyng yr ls, lrs.
Tyr Rx @ 69 sd:
nd lk jst bt vry thr lyng lr n th knwn nvrs, pprntly ll vdnc tht rfts yr lyng, s mt wth mr ls. f crs y cn’t kp p wth th trth. Scrry ff nw pls bck ndr yr rck, lrs.
jhn @ 70 sd:
@69
Hr hr!
m nt prmttd t dfnd myslf f smn clls m lr whn m nt?
Thnks Tgtg @ 74 nd Mrk @ 75.
Ths smd t b trlls t m, n mr prsstntly s thn th thrs. r thy nt?
Jhn @ 43 sd:
<blckqt>Tht’s l, @42 Grgry.
Tyr Rx @ 49 sd:
“Tht’s l, @42 Grgry.”
Rpt th l nd kp rptng t.
Zrrnsky @ 50 sd:
Gd fr nts th’.
Zrrnsky @ 55 sd:
Tyr@9.28pm Synchrncty
http://lrvtsprd.nt/2010/06/01/gz-d-fltll-ttck/#cmmnt-890066
Tyr Rx @ 58 sd:
Spn, nw y’r jst trllng.
Tyr Rx @ 59 sd:
Grgry, nd wht’s th pr rght ndr th grph?
Tyr Rx @ 61 sd:
bt grgry, tht’s jst *yr* pnn.
jhn @ 62 sd:
@57
l by mssn s stll l.
Tyr Rx @ 61 sd:
PtrTB, Grgry, trlls f th frst rdr wh cn’t rd r qt rprt ccrtly.
nd
S kp lyng yr ls, lrs.
Tyr Rx @ 69 sd:
nd lk jst bt vry thr lyng lr n th knwn nvrs, pprntly ll vdnc tht rfts yr lyng, s mt wth mr ls. f crs y cn’t kp p wth th trth. Scrry ff nw pls bck ndr yr rck, lrs.
jhn @ 70 sd:
@69
Hr hr!
m nt prmttd t dfnd myslf f smn clls m lr whn m nt?
Grigory, go have a cup of tea or something before you get banned. We don’t do that kind of nonsense here.
Grigory, go have a cup of tea or something before you get banned. We don’t do that kind of nonsense here.
Even when he was just Opposition leader they were saying Kevin Rudd would “stuff our economy”. Remember the stupid Liberal ads last election?
Reading between the lines it doesn’t mean he’s “stuffed the country” (he hasn’t). It’s the expression of pain and anger because he deposed Howard and the Liberals. They are partisan plodders, bitter at their side taking its turn in the wilderness. They should get over themselves, but of course Antarctica would boil dry before that happened.
Even when he was just Opposition leader they were saying Kevin Rudd would “stuff our economy”. Remember the stupid Liberal ads last election?
Reading between the lines it doesn’t mean he’s “stuffed the country” (he hasn’t). It’s the expression of pain and anger because he deposed Howard and the Liberals. They are partisan plodders, bitter at their side taking its turn in the wilderness. They should get over themselves, but of course Antarctica would boil dry before that happened.
In an economic downturn, one of the first industries to feel the pinch of contraction is building and construction. To forestall that, plus the damaging knock-on effects to the wider economy, the BER was designed to inject building activity into every postcode area in the country. It’s difficult to imagine a more effective, blanket program.
But it was more than just a rapid-response economic adrenaline shot. The benefits of increased and better school/community infrastructure will be enjoyed for decades to come.
The government acted swiftly, effectively and responsibly. Our economy is the envy of the developed world. Kevin Rudd and Co deserve re-election on those grounds alone.
In an economic downturn, one of the first industries to feel the pinch of contraction is building and construction. To forestall that, plus the damaging knock-on effects to the wider economy, the BER was designed to inject building activity into every postcode area in the country. It’s difficult to imagine a more effective, blanket program.
But it was more than just a rapid-response economic adrenaline shot. The benefits of increased and better school/community infrastructure will be enjoyed for decades to come.
The government acted swiftly, effectively and responsibly. Our economy is the envy of the developed world. Kevin Rudd and Co deserve re-election on those grounds alone.
But Grigory, this willful misrepresentation of the BER program as some sort of economic and education disaster IS a lie. I quoted the auditor’s report right at you, it’s a roaring success. To say otherwise is to lie about what the auditor said about it.
Again, it’s just part of the media narrative about the government having “done nothing”, or alternatively, stuffed everything up. The BER is no stuff up – far from it in fact.
Therefore I feel perfectly justified in saying it forms part of the right-wing “big lie” narrative wherein certain “facts” (i.e. outright lies) are repeatedly endlessly in the media (and by the media) until they are accepted as truth.
And personally, I think that the Government ministers when confronted with questions about this type of shit should stop deferring to the interviewer (“good question, Kerry …”) and just say it outright when it is blatant enough (such as in the case of the BER program) – “that’s a lie, and anyone who says so is therefore either a liar or ignorant of the true facts”.
I’m sick of politics and media reporting of the politics allowing blatant lies to be stated as “opinion” about things in which there are easily obtainable concrete public facts which refute such wrong opinions. Repeating such opinions in the face of such facts makes one either totally disconnected from reality, or a liar. But the media – never big on fact-checking – just lazily allows such reporting to continue because they are reporting “he said she said” opinions, instead of the actual facts. Soon we’ll have the crazier elements of the conservative movement demanding to see Rudd’s birth certificate.
But Grigory, this willful misrepresentation of the BER program as some sort of economic and education disaster IS a lie. I quoted the auditor’s report right at you, it’s a roaring success. To say otherwise is to lie about what the auditor said about it.
Again, it’s just part of the media narrative about the government having “done nothing”, or alternatively, stuffed everything up. The BER is no stuff up – far from it in fact.
Therefore I feel perfectly justified in saying it forms part of the right-wing “big lie” narrative wherein certain “facts” (i.e. outright lies) are repeatedly endlessly in the media (and by the media) until they are accepted as truth.
And personally, I think that the Government ministers when confronted with questions about this type of shit should stop deferring to the interviewer (“good question, Kerry …”) and just say it outright when it is blatant enough (such as in the case of the BER program) – “that’s a lie, and anyone who says so is therefore either a liar or ignorant of the true facts”.
I’m sick of politics and media reporting of the politics allowing blatant lies to be stated as “opinion” about things in which there are easily obtainable concrete public facts which refute such wrong opinions. Repeating such opinions in the face of such facts makes one either totally disconnected from reality, or a liar. But the media – never big on fact-checking – just lazily allows such reporting to continue because they are reporting “he said she said” opinions, instead of the actual facts. Soon we’ll have the crazier elements of the conservative movement demanding to see Rudd’s birth certificate.
I’d like News to clarify: is there actually *anyone* – outside the media – speculating on Rudd’s leadership? Preferably someone who is a. in the fderal parliamentary ALP, and b. if they arent, are at least not CEO of mining companies
That sais: Ive heard if Tones cant capitalise on Rudd’s poor polling soon, they’ll give him the chop. He has exactly ONE Morgan poll before his head ROLLS!
Bishop has apparently “denied she has been approached”.
I’d like News to clarify: is there actually *anyone* – outside the media – speculating on Rudd’s leadership? Preferably someone who is a. in the fderal parliamentary ALP, and b. if they arent, are at least not CEO of mining companies
That sais: Ive heard if Tones cant capitalise on Rudd’s poor polling soon, they’ll give him the chop. He has exactly ONE Morgan poll before his head ROLLS!
Bishop has apparently “denied she has been approached”.
@ 85 Disemvowelled: Grigory M
That’s pretty slack security on the LP site IMHO.
If that is allowed to happen I guess the answer to both of my questions is no.
MODERATOR NOTE: You appear to be terribly obtuse. This is nothing to do with “security” and everything to do with an active policy of moderating our comments threads. You’ve already been pointed towards the comments policy once. Please read it before attempting to comment again. ~tigtog
@ 85 Disemvowelled: Grigory M
That’s pretty slack security on the LP site IMHO.
If that is allowed to happen I guess the answer to both of my questions is no.
MODERATOR NOTE: You appear to be terribly obtuse. This is nothing to do with “security” and everything to do with an active policy of moderating our comments threads. You’ve already been pointed towards the comments policy once. Please read it before attempting to comment again. ~tigtog
RazorNo Gravatar
Jun 15th, 2010 at 8:52 am
“Ron @ 76 – if human caused climate change is the greatest moral challenge of our time then he should have been prepared to go to a double dissolution election on it. The fact that he wasn’t shows that either he has back flipped or that it isn’t the challenge of the nature that he said it was.”
Rudd “backflip” ?
a Libral Lie narative , a Greens Lie narative , a MSN lie narative
a CPRS Bill Rudd did introduce 3 times and it got rejected 3 times
….yet those politcal Groups (Liberals and Greens) WHO opposed these very CPRS Bills ar very people hypocricaly who claim Rudd still should hav kept CPRS on his Agenda !
What for ? so those very opposing anti ETS Groups could keep rejecting those CPRS Bills that were never going to get passed by Liberrtals & Greens , and also so that those very Groups opposing that CPRS could continue to gain politcal votes !
Liberal , Grens & MSN hptocrits , simply lies to demonize Rudd/Labor Govt
One can not be deemed to hav back flipped on CPRS if you’ve introduced CPRS Bill 3 times and its been rejected
Rudd simply accepted it was politcal reality of Senate numbers , that it never was going to pass & has movd on to wait on World to agree on a CC agreed Plan
Increasing Labor voters hold Greens in contempt for there backflip lie narrative , as much as hey do for Liberals and MSN for same lie narative
Rudds only mistake was nstategic positioning ie Rudd should hav ‘created’ a 3rd CPRS Bill to prevent such lie naratives
RazorNo Gravatar
Jun 15th, 2010 at 8:52 am
“Ron @ 76 – if human caused climate change is the greatest moral challenge of our time then he should have been prepared to go to a double dissolution election on it. The fact that he wasn’t shows that either he has back flipped or that it isn’t the challenge of the nature that he said it was.”
Rudd “backflip” ?
a Libral Lie narative , a Greens Lie narative , a MSN lie narative
a CPRS Bill Rudd did introduce 3 times and it got rejected 3 times
….yet those politcal Groups (Liberals and Greens) WHO opposed these very CPRS Bills ar very people hypocricaly who claim Rudd still should hav kept CPRS on his Agenda !
What for ? so those very opposing anti ETS Groups could keep rejecting those CPRS Bills that were never going to get passed by Liberrtals & Greens , and also so that those very Groups opposing that CPRS could continue to gain politcal votes !
Liberal , Grens & MSN hptocrits , simply lies to demonize Rudd/Labor Govt
One can not be deemed to hav back flipped on CPRS if you’ve introduced CPRS Bill 3 times and its been rejected
Rudd simply accepted it was politcal reality of Senate numbers , that it never was going to pass & has movd on to wait on World to agree on a CC agreed Plan
Increasing Labor voters hold Greens in contempt for there backflip lie narrative , as much as hey do for Liberals and MSN for same lie narative
Rudds only mistake was nstategic positioning ie Rudd should hav ‘created’ a 3rd CPRS Bill to prevent such lie naratives
The right wing noise machine knows full well they’ve lost the economic argument. If their side had been in office when the GFC struck, the approach they’d have taken (or, rather, the lack of approach – “wait and see”) would have seen the local economy suffer a damaging nosedive.
So to compensate they lie and distort about the BER and the Home Insulation program, two of the most successful measures the Rudd government took to prevent recession.
Honesty and morality don’t come into it. They’re sore because Kevin Rudd kicked them out in 2007, and they’re sore because Labor has done such a good job on the economy.
The right wing noise machine knows full well they’ve lost the economic argument. If their side had been in office when the GFC struck, the approach they’d have taken (or, rather, the lack of approach – “wait and see”) would have seen the local economy suffer a damaging nosedive.
So to compensate they lie and distort about the BER and the Home Insulation program, two of the most successful measures the Rudd government took to prevent recession.
Honesty and morality don’t come into it. They’re sore because Kevin Rudd kicked them out in 2007, and they’re sore because Labor has done such a good job on the economy.
Andrew Jackson @82
As all of the other parties are “evil” will you preference the Libs over Labor or vice versa, because one of them will finish up with your vote. Given the way you feel your only real choice is to vote informal so no one benefits from your vote.
Andrew Jackson @82
As all of the other parties are “evil” will you preference the Libs over Labor or vice versa, because one of them will finish up with your vote. Given the way you feel your only real choice is to vote informal so no one benefits from your vote.
Watching Q & A last night, I wonder if the media narrative has got it wrong. For the first time ever, that I can remember, there was grumbling from the audience at a Coalition pollie. (Maybe for the first time ever, Young Labor stacked the audience instead of Young Libs.) People weren’t happy at Marr’s psycho-history. Did that denote the beginning of a rising sympathy among the electorate? Garrett was treated with more courtesy than any Labor pollie I’ve seen on the show before. Maybe because he was Garrett, a rock singer environmental activist who is seen as beyond party by the voters. I don’tr know if Q & A is a barometer of electoral feeling, but if it is, maybe the tide is turning. Maybe we don’t want Rudd’s head on a platter, regardless of the way the MSM is trying to “educate” us.
(But I still oprefer Gillard as PM.)
Watching Q & A last night, I wonder if the media narrative has got it wrong. For the first time ever, that I can remember, there was grumbling from the audience at a Coalition pollie. (Maybe for the first time ever, Young Labor stacked the audience instead of Young Libs.) People weren’t happy at Marr’s psycho-history. Did that denote the beginning of a rising sympathy among the electorate? Garrett was treated with more courtesy than any Labor pollie I’ve seen on the show before. Maybe because he was Garrett, a rock singer environmental activist who is seen as beyond party by the voters. I don’tr know if Q & A is a barometer of electoral feeling, but if it is, maybe the tide is turning. Maybe we don’t want Rudd’s head on a platter, regardless of the way the MSM is trying to “educate” us.
(But I still oprefer Gillard as PM.)
Paul, there’s plenty of time for Julia to make her move if they win the election. Although there’s abundant talent in the Labor frontbench the more powder they keep dry the better to blast at the Liberals later.
Paul, there’s plenty of time for Julia to make her move if they win the election. Although there’s abundant talent in the Labor frontbench the more powder they keep dry the better to blast at the Liberals later.
Re Paul’s observations (94) I thought Garrett came across last night as composed, thoughtful and an asset to his colleagues.
Re Paul’s observations (94) I thought Garrett came across last night as composed, thoughtful and an asset to his colleagues.
The MSM has been pro-Rudd in spades since before the election. The ABC was outrageous in its pro-Labor bias. It has only been since Rudd and his mates failed so spectacularly at every endeavour that the MSM has fallen out of love with the ALP. I suspect that much of the MSM attack is actually coming from the left. Unfortunatley the nature of the media beast is that once it has developed a theme it’s a case of all pile on, whether it’s justified or not.
The point is that satisfaction with Rudd and Labor have both collapsed more quickly than that of any government. Is the electorate just more volatile these days, or are they turning against the ALP for good?
Only the election campaign will tell us the answer
The MSM has been pro-Rudd in spades since before the election. The ABC was outrageous in its pro-Labor bias. It has only been since Rudd and his mates failed so spectacularly at every endeavour that the MSM has fallen out of love with the ALP. I suspect that much of the MSM attack is actually coming from the left. Unfortunatley the nature of the media beast is that once it has developed a theme it’s a case of all pile on, whether it’s justified or not.
The point is that satisfaction with Rudd and Labor have both collapsed more quickly than that of any government. Is the electorate just more volatile these days, or are they turning against the ALP for good?
Only the election campaign will tell us the answer
Rococo Liberal clearly lives in a parallel universe where Devine, Milne, Shanahan, and all the rest of the sad bunch suddenly became anti-Labor after the election after stridently promoting Kevin Rudd before the election.
Only somebody with selective amnesia could possibly believe such things.
Rococo Liberal clearly lives in a parallel universe where Devine, Milne, Shanahan, and all the rest of the sad bunch suddenly became anti-Labor after the election after stridently promoting Kevin Rudd before the election.
Only somebody with selective amnesia could possibly believe such things.
Tyro Rex – on strikes. Last year the ALP Bligh government took the teachers union to court and had us banned from striking. Last year. ALP. Banned strike. Check your history. The ALP is an anti union as ever.
Andrew Jackson. I am very glad the DLP exists and is fielding candidates this election. I have had no choice at times but to vote informal because I refuse to support either of the two big parties for the reason you outline. You have my vote.
Tyro Rex – on strikes. Last year the ALP Bligh government took the teachers union to court and had us banned from striking. Last year. ALP. Banned strike. Check your history. The ALP is an anti union as ever.
Andrew Jackson. I am very glad the DLP exists and is fielding candidates this election. I have had no choice at times but to vote informal because I refuse to support either of the two big parties for the reason you outline. You have my vote.
Ahem the DLP also supports the rule of industrial law, including outlawing some kinds of industrial action.
To continue the derail, Spana, given your often expressed extremely anti-war views, I wonder how you reconcile your support for the DLP with their rearmament policy (same document)?
My bolding throughout.
Ahem the DLP also supports the rule of industrial law, including outlawing some kinds of industrial action.
To continue the derail, Spana, given your often expressed extremely anti-war views, I wonder how you reconcile your support for the DLP with their rearmament policy (same document)?
My bolding throughout.
Thanks for that Liam. I had no idea that the DLP had a paper position in favour of building nuclear weapons, though I’m not that surprised.
They way they word it underscores how utterly clueless they are about the subject. If you were in favour of nuclear weapons, wasting your time building nuclear power plants would be absurd and irrelevant. We have the materiel needed already and we’d simply build the requisite reprocessing plant.
Of course, we’d also have to build some delivery systems as well and long before we got anywhere near doing any of that we’d be part of the arms race ourselves.
Thanks for that Liam. I had no idea that the DLP had a paper position in favour of building nuclear weapons, though I’m not that surprised.
They way they word it underscores how utterly clueless they are about the subject. If you were in favour of nuclear weapons, wasting your time building nuclear power plants would be absurd and irrelevant. We have the materiel needed already and we’d simply build the requisite reprocessing plant.
Of course, we’d also have to build some delivery systems as well and long before we got anywhere near doing any of that we’d be part of the arms race ourselves.
The MSM has been pro-Rudd in spades since before the election.
Stale talking points from the United States aren’t good for you, Rococo. Consumption can result in involutary regurgitation.
The MSM has been pro-Rudd in spades since before the election.
Stale talking points from the United States aren’t good for you, Rococo. Consumption can result in involutary regurgitation.
Fran, belt yourself into the chair, pour yourself a hot cup of mescaline, and read through the rest of the list.
I first became aware of my Party’s policy, Mandrake, during the physical act of love…
Hopefully to Toowoomba, with fluoride, with love from Sydney.
Spana, your thoughts on vouchers?
Any thoughts to your military Anschluss, Kiwis?
I assume we’re getting them out of “navy blue” into “fluorescent” “jackets”.
But without a doubt my favourite:
FUCK YEAH
Fran, belt yourself into the chair, pour yourself a hot cup of mescaline, and read through the rest of the list.
I first became aware of my Party’s policy, Mandrake, during the physical act of love…
Hopefully to Toowoomba, with fluoride, with love from Sydney.
Spana, your thoughts on vouchers?
Any thoughts to your military Anschluss, Kiwis?
I assume we’re getting them out of “navy blue” into “fluorescent” “jackets”.
But without a doubt my favourite:
FUCK YEAH
We may never hear from Spana again.
We may never hear from Spana again.
The response of the audience to Garrett on Q & A reflected his own response to their questions to him. Shingle @ 96 is right. He was thoughtful and respectful as well as courteous. He’s an asset to the ALP and this government even if he does lack the ruthless killer instinct of many politicians. When the Home Insulation Program was removed from his administration and placed under Greg Combet my sense was this was more to assist him rather than to demean him. Media pressure and the Opposition baying for his blood were intolerable. Real demotion would have seen him lose his ministerial position. I found his defence of his PM sincere and believable.
David Marr who so often makes good sense often comes across as a sneering know it all. Last night he was just a determinedly sneering know it all who was loving the limelight his critique of Rudd’s character was giving him.
What a disapppointment Peter Singer was! I agree with much of what he writes. Last night he showed he has no understanding of the complexities of politics or international aid financing but is willing to pronounce so emphatically on both. As well, how could he not see that animal sexual interraction with humans is abusive in the same way that pedophilia is? There can be no informed consent.
The response of the audience to Garrett on Q & A reflected his own response to their questions to him. Shingle @ 96 is right. He was thoughtful and respectful as well as courteous. He’s an asset to the ALP and this government even if he does lack the ruthless killer instinct of many politicians. When the Home Insulation Program was removed from his administration and placed under Greg Combet my sense was this was more to assist him rather than to demean him. Media pressure and the Opposition baying for his blood were intolerable. Real demotion would have seen him lose his ministerial position. I found his defence of his PM sincere and believable.
David Marr who so often makes good sense often comes across as a sneering know it all. Last night he was just a determinedly sneering know it all who was loving the limelight his critique of Rudd’s character was giving him.
What a disapppointment Peter Singer was! I agree with much of what he writes. Last night he showed he has no understanding of the complexities of politics or international aid financing but is willing to pronounce so emphatically on both. As well, how could he not see that animal sexual interraction with humans is abusive in the same way that pedophilia is? There can be no informed consent.
Let’s see if I’ve understood the narrative.
Rudd, unable to get the ETS through the Senate, “backflipped” on climate change and as a result we mug punters are going to vote for Abbott, who has stated that “Climate change is crap”.
Have I got it straight?
Let’s see if I’ve understood the narrative.
Rudd, unable to get the ETS through the Senate, “backflipped” on climate change and as a result we mug punters are going to vote for Abbott, who has stated that “Climate change is crap”.
Have I got it straight?
To which you could add that Rudd is an unauthentic do workaholic control freak consumed by anger so we are going to vote for an authentic lazy control freak consumed by …..(we await David Marr’s expert analysis).
BTW it was great to see Marr taken seriously to task on Q&A by an actual psychologist. These journalists do not cope well when the scrutiny is applied to them for a change.
To which you could add that Rudd is an unauthentic do workaholic control freak consumed by anger so we are going to vote for an authentic lazy control freak consumed by …..(we await David Marr’s expert analysis).
BTW it was great to see Marr taken seriously to task on Q&A by an actual psychologist. These journalists do not cope well when the scrutiny is applied to them for a change.
#104 Demonizing DLP
I see nothing in principal wrong wiyth last 5 of there 6 polisys listed , subject to seeing more detail Unlike etreme post from Q’ld DLP guy , i,ve had many conversations with lng term DLP registerd members in total conflict with narative here There electon preferensing is almost as high to Labor as Greens do
Patricia WA
agree
Peter Garrett was subject to one of th most sewer politcal attacks in oz politcal history via direct claims by Tony Abbott Liberals and MSN that HE Garrett was personaly responsible for th 4 Insulation deaths
And Bob Brown , gutless…happy to cynicaly steal by default Labor votes at Garrett’s expense
I encountered BOTH Liberal and numerous Greens suporters blogging & peddling this 4 deaths blame on Peter Garrett…contemptable Had 4 labors died in BER Schools program (another somewhat unregulatd industry then Julia Gillard would hav been blmed personaly for those 4 deaths
Fact is Peter Garrett was demoted on generic complianse issue a la long standing Crown Cabinet Minister reponsibility principals , but not sacked because he was not negligent in carry out that duty…how other Partys suporter easily forget 1.1 million homes were insulated , which helped us from GFC, gav many Aussies better quality of life proper insulaton & which also reduced co2 in oz
#104 Demonizing DLP
I see nothing in principal wrong wiyth last 5 of there 6 polisys listed , subject to seeing more detail Unlike etreme post from Q’ld DLP guy , i,ve had many conversations with lng term DLP registerd members in total conflict with narative here There electon preferensing is almost as high to Labor as Greens do
Patricia WA
agree
Peter Garrett was subject to one of th most sewer politcal attacks in oz politcal history via direct claims by Tony Abbott Liberals and MSN that HE Garrett was personaly responsible for th 4 Insulation deaths
And Bob Brown , gutless…happy to cynicaly steal by default Labor votes at Garrett’s expense
I encountered BOTH Liberal and numerous Greens suporters blogging & peddling this 4 deaths blame on Peter Garrett…contemptable Had 4 labors died in BER Schools program (another somewhat unregulatd industry then Julia Gillard would hav been blmed personaly for those 4 deaths
Fact is Peter Garrett was demoted on generic complianse issue a la long standing Crown Cabinet Minister reponsibility principals , but not sacked because he was not negligent in carry out that duty…how other Partys suporter easily forget 1.1 million homes were insulated , which helped us from GFC, gav many Aussies better quality of life proper insulaton & which also reduced co2 in oz
sounds about right zoot.
Rudd’s big problem is that it does feel like he’s backflipped, even though we know that’s not really the case. It’s a case of unbeleivably shocking political communication really.
It’s also worth noting, for those lauding Gillard, that she was with Swan in arguing for the dropping against Tanner and (to a lesser extent) Rudd.
Back on topic, there’s nothing new in News Ltd demanding that politics conform to its invented narrative. Unfortunately Rudd et al appear to have lost the knack of talking over the top of the MSM and straight to the people.
Rudd badly needs to stand strong on the RSPT (regadless of its merits really, although I support it) because any weakening will kill him politically.
sounds about right zoot.
Rudd’s big problem is that it does feel like he’s backflipped, even though we know that’s not really the case. It’s a case of unbeleivably shocking political communication really.
It’s also worth noting, for those lauding Gillard, that she was with Swan in arguing for the dropping against Tanner and (to a lesser extent) Rudd.
Back on topic, there’s nothing new in News Ltd demanding that politics conform to its invented narrative. Unfortunately Rudd et al appear to have lost the knack of talking over the top of the MSM and straight to the people.
Rudd badly needs to stand strong on the RSPT (regadless of its merits really, although I support it) because any weakening will kill him politically.
“Unfortunately Rudd et al appear to have lost the knack of talking over the top of the MSM and straight to the people.”
Agree Josh – if the backflip on climate action is the ‘content’ of Rudd’s current problems, then this is the key problem with ‘process’. He was very good at this last election – and up till a few months back, when he appeared to get bogged down in bureacratic management. He forgot to sell the big messages.
“Unfortunately Rudd et al appear to have lost the knack of talking over the top of the MSM and straight to the people.”
Agree Josh – if the backflip on climate action is the ‘content’ of Rudd’s current problems, then this is the key problem with ‘process’. He was very good at this last election – and up till a few months back, when he appeared to get bogged down in bureacratic management. He forgot to sell the big messages.
@111 – more in the Fin Review on work being done in the Department of Climate Change, Lefty E, on a new version of an ETS (on consumption, this time, not on production). I strongly suspect, as I’ve said a number of times, that something will be released on this before the election. The challenge will be to join the dots, and make the gap between abandoning the CPRS and announcing a new policy somehow justifiable.
@111 – more in the Fin Review on work being done in the Department of Climate Change, Lefty E, on a new version of an ETS (on consumption, this time, not on production). I strongly suspect, as I’ve said a number of times, that something will be released on this before the election. The challenge will be to join the dots, and make the gap between abandoning the CPRS and announcing a new policy somehow justifiable.
Spana’s criticism of Rudd Labor for supposedly being anti-union raises all sorts of questions. As Tyro pointed out, it aint new, with Chifley having to move against the coal mining unions back in 49. And I can remember Don Dunstan angrily addressing a storming march of building workers on the steps of Parliament House, stating that all they were doing was making it easier for the Liberals and THEN what do they think they’d get? Sometimes the public interest supercedes sectional interests.
But this union-Labor thing cuts both ways, Spana. I can remember in 73-74 when Whitlam had brought in major reforms – medibank, education spending, housing and regional development – leading to a huge boom demand in spending. The real social wage was effectively increased by up to 25%. Despite a call for restraint because of that, did the unions exercise any at the wage tribunals? Not on your nelly. They went for everything they knew the demand would allow.
And the CFMEU wasn’t exactly a big help to Latham, publicly backing Howard’s forestry policy a few days before the election. And they’re at it again backing the big miners now. Pretty short memories, I’d suggest, when it was only Hawke and Keating’s intervention that saved them from a de-unionised mining workforce in the 90s.
Pretty simple reasoning for abandoning Labor, I’d suggest, even if you’re right about rank-and-file having little say. (Albeit, they had one big win over the factions in deciding on who was National President.) It might be a crooked wheel, but it’s the only game in town.
And I wouldn’t put too much faith in the DLP (even if I quite respected that independent grouper, Brian Harradine). I seem to remember in those heady Whitlam days that they happily teamed up with the Coalition to oppose anything and everything put up to the Senate. Interested in genuine reform to help the less advantaged in the community? Not on your life. Got entirely what they deserved when they were wiped out at the 74 double dissolution election.
Spana’s criticism of Rudd Labor for supposedly being anti-union raises all sorts of questions. As Tyro pointed out, it aint new, with Chifley having to move against the coal mining unions back in 49. And I can remember Don Dunstan angrily addressing a storming march of building workers on the steps of Parliament House, stating that all they were doing was making it easier for the Liberals and THEN what do they think they’d get? Sometimes the public interest supercedes sectional interests.
But this union-Labor thing cuts both ways, Spana. I can remember in 73-74 when Whitlam had brought in major reforms – medibank, education spending, housing and regional development – leading to a huge boom demand in spending. The real social wage was effectively increased by up to 25%. Despite a call for restraint because of that, did the unions exercise any at the wage tribunals? Not on your nelly. They went for everything they knew the demand would allow.
And the CFMEU wasn’t exactly a big help to Latham, publicly backing Howard’s forestry policy a few days before the election. And they’re at it again backing the big miners now. Pretty short memories, I’d suggest, when it was only Hawke and Keating’s intervention that saved them from a de-unionised mining workforce in the 90s.
Pretty simple reasoning for abandoning Labor, I’d suggest, even if you’re right about rank-and-file having little say. (Albeit, they had one big win over the factions in deciding on who was National President.) It might be a crooked wheel, but it’s the only game in town.
And I wouldn’t put too much faith in the DLP (even if I quite respected that independent grouper, Brian Harradine). I seem to remember in those heady Whitlam days that they happily teamed up with the Coalition to oppose anything and everything put up to the Senate. Interested in genuine reform to help the less advantaged in the community? Not on your life. Got entirely what they deserved when they were wiped out at the 74 double dissolution election.
“The challenge will be to join the dots, and make the gap between abandoning the CPRS and announcing a new policy somehow justifiable.”
Agreed, Mark. It will be a challenge. But I dare say we’d all agree – not as much of one as abandoning the ALPs edge over Abbott on a key issue, and leaving credibility behind.
As for the challenge, Id go in straight: it was a mistake to delay, our thinking was influenced by Copenhagen, but now it does seem substantial progress has been made by China and US – not to mention the ETS in neighbouring NZ. We’ve refined an alternative model, and now present the detail – for you to absorb before, not after the election. The fact is “direct action’ on climate change will not work, and we need a price on carbon….
“The challenge will be to join the dots, and make the gap between abandoning the CPRS and announcing a new policy somehow justifiable.”
Agreed, Mark. It will be a challenge. But I dare say we’d all agree – not as much of one as abandoning the ALPs edge over Abbott on a key issue, and leaving credibility behind.
As for the challenge, Id go in straight: it was a mistake to delay, our thinking was influenced by Copenhagen, but now it does seem substantial progress has been made by China and US – not to mention the ETS in neighbouring NZ. We’ve refined an alternative model, and now present the detail – for you to absorb before, not after the election. The fact is “direct action’ on climate change will not work, and we need a price on carbon….
@Don Wigan 113, exactly. Note that Spana subsequently quotes actions by Anna bligh as part of his reasoning. Who said voters can separate State from Federal?
@Lefty E 114 … you’d hope such a reasoned justification will be forthcoming. Myself I’m a bit pessimistic. And any explanation, of anything, no matter how rational, has to now be heard over the howling shit-flinging baboons of the media pack.
@Don Wigan 113, exactly. Note that Spana subsequently quotes actions by Anna bligh as part of his reasoning. Who said voters can separate State from Federal?
@Lefty E 114 … you’d hope such a reasoned justification will be forthcoming. Myself I’m a bit pessimistic. And any explanation, of anything, no matter how rational, has to now be heard over the howling shit-flinging baboons of the media pack.
“Unfortunately Rudd et al appear to have lost the knack of talking over the top of the MSM and straight to the people.”
Maybe, but perhaps someone could enlighten me exactly how this could be done.
“Unfortunately Rudd et al appear to have lost the knack of talking over the top of the MSM and straight to the people.”
Maybe, but perhaps someone could enlighten me exactly how this could be done.
@116 – adrian, I’ve discussed it on many occasions – not only via radio and non news and current affairs tv, but through direct mail and party advertising.
@116 – adrian, I’ve discussed it on many occasions – not only via radio and non news and current affairs tv, but through direct mail and party advertising.
Patricia @106, Peter Singer is remarkably overrated as a philosopher, for mine. You may be interested to read this piece by Peter Berkowitz, which IMHO is a rather devastating critique of many of Singer’s core arguments. /end OT
Patricia @106, Peter Singer is remarkably overrated as a philosopher, for mine. You may be interested to read this piece by Peter Berkowitz, which IMHO is a rather devastating critique of many of Singer’s core arguments. /end OT
@117
But people hate that stuff.
@117
But people hate that stuff.
Dunno, Tim @ 118. OK, it’s late, and I’m “tired and emotional”, but unlike Berkowitz at least Singer is coherent. (I found the piece you linked to unreadable.)
Dunno, Tim @ 118. OK, it’s late, and I’m “tired and emotional”, but unlike Berkowitz at least Singer is coherent. (I found the piece you linked to unreadable.)
Thanks, Tim, very dense but interesting, bearing in mind of course Berkowitz’s own take on ethical and political issues.
Thanks, Tim, very dense but interesting, bearing in mind of course Berkowitz’s own take on ethical and political issues.
Back to the thread! It’s amazing how Rudd, his cabinet and caucus don’t seem to buy the media narrative at all. Heather Ewett on the 7.30 Report was talking about a ‘mess’ but there were no ALP parliamentarians even hinting at anything beyond ‘uncertainty’ which would be resolved ‘in time’ with some variations in exactly when that would be. Ewett grasped this as a sign of disunity in the ranks, while having to admit there were no challenges at all to the RSPT or to Rudd’s leadership. Rudd himself looks remarkably composed and strong and his party remarkably united. Is he putting something in their drinks, hypnotising them or what? How is he doing it in the face of the media narrative? Do they have polling information which suggests the narrative’s demands aren’t being met out there in voter land?
Back to the thread! It’s amazing how Rudd, his cabinet and caucus don’t seem to buy the media narrative at all. Heather Ewett on the 7.30 Report was talking about a ‘mess’ but there were no ALP parliamentarians even hinting at anything beyond ‘uncertainty’ which would be resolved ‘in time’ with some variations in exactly when that would be. Ewett grasped this as a sign of disunity in the ranks, while having to admit there were no challenges at all to the RSPT or to Rudd’s leadership. Rudd himself looks remarkably composed and strong and his party remarkably united. Is he putting something in their drinks, hypnotising them or what? How is he doing it in the face of the media narrative? Do they have polling information which suggests the narrative’s demands aren’t being met out there in voter land?
Moderator Note @ 91
Thank you Tigtog.
Gallantry of mind consists in saying flattering things in an agreeable manner.
Moderator Note @ 91
Thank you Tigtog.
Gallantry of mind consists in saying flattering things in an agreeable manner.
As someone with a strong sympathy for many of the causes with which Singer is associated, I found Berkowitz’s discussion interesting.
Like Singer, I find the demands of equality persuasive, though I would not iterate them as he does. Like Singer, I regard humans as having an obligation to avoid the imposition of suffering on sentient beings, and in the absence of clear evidence to the contrary, to impute to others a capacity for suffering analogous to ours. The world and its arrangemnts however, make for complex problems, and one cannot always be sure how to follow such mandates with consistency. We humans are works in progress. Understanding the scope and nature of our obligations to others and what the scope and nature of our own legitimate and compelling claims amount to is our fundamental work — a task we may not finish before we draw our last breaths.
We ought therefore to pronounce with some caution, on the extent to which any person’s ethics should be faithfully followed by all. In my view, to be an ethical equal with every other human is not at all the same thing as saying that all of us should make only the same claims. I disagree strongly with others procuring the deaths of animals, for example, but I accept that this falls within the scope of their claims to the enjoyment of life, in a way that I would not accept if the animals were human.
Thanks for the link though. I will reflect on Berkowitz for a time and may add further to what I’ve said here.
As someone with a strong sympathy for many of the causes with which Singer is associated, I found Berkowitz’s discussion interesting.
Like Singer, I find the demands of equality persuasive, though I would not iterate them as he does. Like Singer, I regard humans as having an obligation to avoid the imposition of suffering on sentient beings, and in the absence of clear evidence to the contrary, to impute to others a capacity for suffering analogous to ours. The world and its arrangemnts however, make for complex problems, and one cannot always be sure how to follow such mandates with consistency. We humans are works in progress. Understanding the scope and nature of our obligations to others and what the scope and nature of our own legitimate and compelling claims amount to is our fundamental work — a task we may not finish before we draw our last breaths.
We ought therefore to pronounce with some caution, on the extent to which any person’s ethics should be faithfully followed by all. In my view, to be an ethical equal with every other human is not at all the same thing as saying that all of us should make only the same claims. I disagree strongly with others procuring the deaths of animals, for example, but I accept that this falls within the scope of their claims to the enjoyment of life, in a way that I would not accept if the animals were human.
Thanks for the link though. I will reflect on Berkowitz for a time and may add further to what I’ve said here.
Mark@117 – I know that you and others had talked about this before but I thought that people who were criticising Rudd for failing to ‘talk over the top of the MSM’ might have some ideas that don’t involve talking to different sections of the MSM or sending out leaflets that nobody reads.
Mark@117 – I know that you and others had talked about this before but I thought that people who were criticising Rudd for failing to ‘talk over the top of the MSM’ might have some ideas that don’t involve talking to different sections of the MSM or sending out leaflets that nobody reads.
“How is he doing it in the face of the media narrative? Do they have polling information which suggests the narrative’s demands aren’t being met out there in voter land?”
Patricia WA,
I’m beginning to think so. The first sign of it may have been that Q & A audience. Usually they are nowhere near as benign to Labor pollies. Even allowing for the fact that it was Garrett and he’s still sort of special, (and time has shown not as incompetentant as peole like me once thought)the audience certainly seemed to be on th ALP’s side for once. Perhaps I’m reading too much into it. Yime will tell.
“How is he doing it in the face of the media narrative? Do they have polling information which suggests the narrative’s demands aren’t being met out there in voter land?”
Patricia WA,
I’m beginning to think so. The first sign of it may have been that Q & A audience. Usually they are nowhere near as benign to Labor pollies. Even allowing for the fact that it was Garrett and he’s still sort of special, (and time has shown not as incompetentant as peole like me once thought)the audience certainly seemed to be on th ALP’s side for once. Perhaps I’m reading too much into it. Yime will tell.
Some things need airing
The truck driver at the mine on $150,000 per annum will still drive the truck for $120,000 per annum and if he quits then there are many others who will.
The major mine executives make more in one year than many Australians make in a lifetime. Just imagine – work one year and then retire.
Despite all this there is a shortage of skilled labour at the mines. Many mines might not happen because of shortage of labour not the RSPT.
Us oldies were amazed at the Whitlam dismissal and right or wrong I was always a bit puzzled on exactly what had been done wrong. There was a lot of newspaper buzz at the time about all the reprehensible things happening but nothing that seemed coherent and you could lay a finger on – just polls and trial by media. Deja vu?
Of course right-thinking citizens at the time thought that Whitlam would be a shoe-in at an election as even if you were not happy with what his ‘firm’ was doing you had to protest vote at an unelected vice-regal dumping an democratically elected government in a moment of press hysteria. Wrong of course – don’t underestimate the power of manufactured hysteria.
The mining industry is buying a lot of advertising and will continue to do so – they have few billion at stake and even more if other resource-rich countries in the world follow suit. Big bucks at stake, greed is good.
The opposition will have an advertising war chest like they never had before.
The other furphys thrown about ad nauseum are various:
Backflip on emission trading – it was obvious that the opposition backed by the mining camp were going to have a field day – postponing it was a chance to re-group and hope for a senate that might not revel in stopping everything next time – it is not dead and Malcolm Turnbull is being disingenuous talking up emission trading at the moment seeing his party rolled him on the issue.
The continuing harping on deaths and malfunctions of the insulation scheme – garrot the contractors! So since when have contractors escaped responsibility for their professional standards? Surely the cheapest way out is to have the contractors now be required to re-inspect all their installations (at their discretion) and certify they meet proper standards on pain of being personally liable for anything that goes wrong and manslaughter charges if anyone is subsequently killed or injured. There is such a thing as product liability insurance and also those contractors who had maintained proper professional ethical standards would have no problem certifying their work and the shonky ones would and could only certify at their peril. Why this is the government’s fault escapes me and I hold little regard for the ‘warnings’ given. It is a beat up.
Schools – waste of money – well pull down all your works guys. It is a classic Keynesian response to the world economic situation and the government should be applauded for rapid reaction and not just paying people to turn up to work and lean on a shovel. So a small box canteen cost a huge amount – but you got one. The local P&C tradesmen and fathers could have tendered for the job and done it for ‘cost’ but no one bothered. In times of high demand just work out how difficult to get a bunch of tradesmen to go out to Ungerabungera when there is constant profitable work in the city. There have to be some tenders placed for stupid amounts on the basis that if no one else tenders I guess we will do it and it will pay the motel bills (which are notoriously higher once you get away from the main holiday drag). If the promised canteen had not turned up it would be the government to blame (again) – could not win this one.
The real problem is the born-to-rule syndrome and the fact that a competent Labor government might be hard to toss once it gets embedded. Tony Abbott has a habit of not speaking from notes and this hardly gets much airplay. No doubt the alternative budget strategy was not noted and when the time comes if elected there will be other taxes in Henry Report that might be implemented – closer to home – perhaps a tax on personal homes might make up the shortfall – just a little one of course – or tax superannuation funds. Personally and cynically I prefer a RSPT – they can afford it better than I can afford the others.
And a couple of tonnes of that ore is mine.
Some things need airing
The truck driver at the mine on $150,000 per annum will still drive the truck for $120,000 per annum and if he quits then there are many others who will.
The major mine executives make more in one year than many Australians make in a lifetime. Just imagine – work one year and then retire.
Despite all this there is a shortage of skilled labour at the mines. Many mines might not happen because of shortage of labour not the RSPT.
Us oldies were amazed at the Whitlam dismissal and right or wrong I was always a bit puzzled on exactly what had been done wrong. There was a lot of newspaper buzz at the time about all the reprehensible things happening but nothing that seemed coherent and you could lay a finger on – just polls and trial by media. Deja vu?
Of course right-thinking citizens at the time thought that Whitlam would be a shoe-in at an election as even if you were not happy with what his ‘firm’ was doing you had to protest vote at an unelected vice-regal dumping an democratically elected government in a moment of press hysteria. Wrong of course – don’t underestimate the power of manufactured hysteria.
The mining industry is buying a lot of advertising and will continue to do so – they have few billion at stake and even more if other resource-rich countries in the world follow suit. Big bucks at stake, greed is good.
The opposition will have an advertising war chest like they never had before.
The other furphys thrown about ad nauseum are various:
Backflip on emission trading – it was obvious that the opposition backed by the mining camp were going to have a field day – postponing it was a chance to re-group and hope for a senate that might not revel in stopping everything next time – it is not dead and Malcolm Turnbull is being disingenuous talking up emission trading at the moment seeing his party rolled him on the issue.
The continuing harping on deaths and malfunctions of the insulation scheme – garrot the contractors! So since when have contractors escaped responsibility for their professional standards? Surely the cheapest way out is to have the contractors now be required to re-inspect all their installations (at their discretion) and certify they meet proper standards on pain of being personally liable for anything that goes wrong and manslaughter charges if anyone is subsequently killed or injured. There is such a thing as product liability insurance and also those contractors who had maintained proper professional ethical standards would have no problem certifying their work and the shonky ones would and could only certify at their peril. Why this is the government’s fault escapes me and I hold little regard for the ‘warnings’ given. It is a beat up.
Schools – waste of money – well pull down all your works guys. It is a classic Keynesian response to the world economic situation and the government should be applauded for rapid reaction and not just paying people to turn up to work and lean on a shovel. So a small box canteen cost a huge amount – but you got one. The local P&C tradesmen and fathers could have tendered for the job and done it for ‘cost’ but no one bothered. In times of high demand just work out how difficult to get a bunch of tradesmen to go out to Ungerabungera when there is constant profitable work in the city. There have to be some tenders placed for stupid amounts on the basis that if no one else tenders I guess we will do it and it will pay the motel bills (which are notoriously higher once you get away from the main holiday drag). If the promised canteen had not turned up it would be the government to blame (again) – could not win this one.
The real problem is the born-to-rule syndrome and the fact that a competent Labor government might be hard to toss once it gets embedded. Tony Abbott has a habit of not speaking from notes and this hardly gets much airplay. No doubt the alternative budget strategy was not noted and when the time comes if elected there will be other taxes in Henry Report that might be implemented – closer to home – perhaps a tax on personal homes might make up the shortfall – just a little one of course – or tax superannuation funds. Personally and cynically I prefer a RSPT – they can afford it better than I can afford the others.
And a couple of tonnes of that ore is mine.
adrian @125 good call on my poor use of ‘MSM’, by which I really meant “the Canberra press gallery”. I was thinking of Sunrise, Kerry-Ann, et al. These were Rudd’s version of Howard’s excellent use of talk-back radio, different as they are.
adrian @125 good call on my poor use of ‘MSM’, by which I really meant “the Canberra press gallery”. I was thinking of Sunrise, Kerry-Ann, et al. These were Rudd’s version of Howard’s excellent use of talk-back radio, different as they are.
Fair enough josh, but I don’t think that the Sunrise option would work in the current environment. It was OK when he was the new, fresh-faced leader to whom people would give the benefit of any doubt.
Now his image has been so tarnished I think these appearances would simply confirm the prejudices that people have been fed.
Paul, maybe the audience wasn’t composed mainly of young libs. It was certainly more respectful than the goons that we are used to hearing from.
Fair enough josh, but I don’t think that the Sunrise option would work in the current environment. It was OK when he was the new, fresh-faced leader to whom people would give the benefit of any doubt.
Now his image has been so tarnished I think these appearances would simply confirm the prejudices that people have been fed.
Paul, maybe the audience wasn’t composed mainly of young libs. It was certainly more respectful than the goons that we are used to hearing from.
@129 – adrian, more here:
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/06/14/media-narrative-demands-rudds-head-according-to-newspoll-timetable/
@129 – adrian, more here:
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2010/06/14/media-narrative-demands-rudds-head-according-to-newspoll-timetable/
Tom C @ 127 takes me back to my worst birthday ever – November 11, 1975. Deja vu indeed! It feels like it’s about to happen again! This time the preliminaries are recognisable but let’s not be complacent.
I vividly recall a conversation shortly thereafter with my local member, Joe Berinson, the then Attorney General in Whitlam’s government who expressed to me exactly that opinion, that the electorate would not allow Fraser to get away with this! I can also recall my own deep fear that if the right had dared this far nothing would stop them from pushing on to win at any cost. How could he have been that naive?
Let’s hope the 1975 experience is seared into the minds of every ALP operative, member and supporter. Surely it’s embedded deep in the DNA of the Australian left? Perhaps it is. Perhaps this explains the extraordinary unity in Caucus and Labor ranks generally. They must all know that disunity now means death.
Tom C @ 127 takes me back to my worst birthday ever – November 11, 1975. Deja vu indeed! It feels like it’s about to happen again! This time the preliminaries are recognisable but let’s not be complacent.
I vividly recall a conversation shortly thereafter with my local member, Joe Berinson, the then Attorney General in Whitlam’s government who expressed to me exactly that opinion, that the electorate would not allow Fraser to get away with this! I can also recall my own deep fear that if the right had dared this far nothing would stop them from pushing on to win at any cost. How could he have been that naive?
Let’s hope the 1975 experience is seared into the minds of every ALP operative, member and supporter. Surely it’s embedded deep in the DNA of the Australian left? Perhaps it is. Perhaps this explains the extraordinary unity in Caucus and Labor ranks generally. They must all know that disunity now means death.
I still maintain my position on a previous post on another piece that Rudd will go late. My view is probably October rather than November; I pick Saturday 23rd of October. I don’t see any electorial advantage in going early. presumably by the the so called great big super Tax reality will have been settled bt then giving Rudd a home run !
I still maintain my position on a previous post on another piece that Rudd will go late. My view is probably October rather than November; I pick Saturday 23rd of October. I don’t see any electorial advantage in going early. presumably by the the so called great big super Tax reality will have been settled bt then giving Rudd a home run !